On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:57:07 +0100, Michael Hoffman
<cam.ac.uk@mh391.invalid> wrote:

>Scott wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:34:22 +0100, "tim....."
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> "Scott"  wrote in message 
>>> news:dluf64dtv49eatav0onpv2uc2f35q2tvv4@4ax.com...
>>>> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:02:46 +0100, Michael Hoffman
>>>> <cam.ac.uk@mh391.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Scott wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:04:52 +0100, Michael Hoffman
>>>>>> <cam.ac.uk@mh391.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Scott wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's got nothing to do with residency, it's about whether or not the 
>>>>>>>>> ODTC +
>>>>>>>>> return journey to the zone edge option will still exist. Unless 
>>>>>>>>> Oyster is
>>>>>>>>> going to be rolled in the provinces then folks out there will still 
>>>>>>>>> need to
>>>>>>>>> be able to buy this Travelcard option.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You mean to avoid paying for the same small section of the journey
>>>>>>>> twice.  An interesting point that I had not thought of.  But will the
>>>>>>>> discount that applies when an Oyser card is used balance this out?
>>>>>>> No.
>>>>>> So how much is an Travelcard for zones 1-2 when purchased as an add-on
>>>>>> to an off-peak rail ticket?
>>>>> There is no such thing. There are only out-boundary Travelcards.
>>>> There must be a price differential between (1) buying a ticket from a
>>>> place outside London to the London terminus and (2) buying a ticket
>>>> from the same place to Zones 1-2.  That was the question.  I do not
>>>> know all the terminology.
>>> Actually, if you are stupid enough to buy a ticket to zone 1, the 
>>> differential is 8 pounds per return ticket.
>>>
>>> If you buy a travel card, from my local station the extra costs is about 
>>> 3.50 without a railcard or 2.30 with.
>>>
>> I am not sure what you are comparing with what here.
>> 
>> Taking a step back, you and Michael have made my point very well.  I
>> am entirely disinterested in having to think about the intricacies of
>> ticketing theory before making a journey on public transport.  I just
>> want to wave the blue card about and get on my way.
>
>Go ahead and do so, you'll just pay a few more quid each day if you do 
>it that way. But please don't try to eliminate the option for those who 
>would prefer to save that money.

There are winners and losers in every change.  Fares are set to
produce an intended level of revenue.  Any zonal system distributes
the cost fairly crudely between users.  There is no reason why Oyster
card should result in higher fares overall.  It is just a matter of
setting the level of fares to produce the required revenue.

A clue here is in the name - Transport FOR London.  Those living
elsewhere just have to fit in.  If you live in Edinburgh you have to
get yourself to London and get a ticket when you get there and I don't
see why anyone else should be treated differently.  Everyone has the
option to buy an Oyser card so there is no discrimination against
non-Londoners in that respect.

It is now recognised that one of the biggest problems with the rail
system is the complexity of the fares.  Look at the simplification
currently taking place with National Rail fares.  We need to get rid
of outdated technical distinctions that are of interest to 'anoraks'
and move to a simple fare structure that users (and perhaps more
importantly non-users) can understand.  If some pay a bit more and
others a bit less then so be it.  That is what happened when the zones
were introduced.  That is what happens to non Oyster users paying £4
on the tube instead of £1.50.

So I say as soon as National Rail services in the London area are
equipped with Oyster then Oyser card should become the only form of
One Day Travelcard.  Bring it on.

On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 09:36:05 +0100, Scott
 wrote:

>There are winners and losers in every change.  Fares are set to
>produce an intended level of revenue.  Any zonal system distributes
>the cost fairly crudely between users.  There is no reason why Oyster
>card should result in higher fares overall.  It is just a matter of
>setting the level of fares to produce the required revenue.
>
> [...]
>
>So I say as soon as National Rail services in the London area are
>equipped with Oyster then Oyser card should become the only form of
>One Day Travelcard.  Bring it on.

I would add "within London" to that...  There is *no* reason at all
why "out-boundary" (from outside zone 6) paper One Day Travelcards
should not continue to exist - the same is true for
weekly/monthly/etc. - even if Oyster becomes the only way to get an
equivalent product within the zones.

Surely what we are discussing here is a sensible change TfL are making
to their own retailing arrangements, even if misunderstood by some
agents, and nothing to do with the train companies and what happens on
National Rail.

Richard.

Scott wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:57:07 +0100, Michael Hoffman
> <cam.ac.uk@mh391.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> Scott wrote:
>>> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:34:22 +0100, "tim....."
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Scott"  wrote in message 
>>>> news:dluf64dtv49eatav0onpv2uc2f35q2tvv4@4ax.com...
>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:02:46 +0100, Michael Hoffman
>>>>> <cam.ac.uk@mh391.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Scott wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:04:52 +0100, Michael Hoffman
>>>>>>> <cam.ac.uk@mh391.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Scott wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It's got nothing to do with residency, it's about whether or not the 
>>>>>>>>>> ODTC +
>>>>>>>>>> return journey to the zone edge option will still exist. Unless 
>>>>>>>>>> Oyster is
>>>>>>>>>> going to be rolled in the provinces then folks out there will still 
>>>>>>>>>> need to
>>>>>>>>>> be able to buy this Travelcard option.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You mean to avoid paying for the same small section of the journey
>>>>>>>>> twice.  An interesting point that I had not thought of.  But will the
>>>>>>>>> discount that applies when an Oyser card is used balance this out?
>>>>>>>> No.
>>>>>>> So how much is an Travelcard for zones 1-2 when purchased as an add-on
>>>>>>> to an off-peak rail ticket?
>>>>>> There is no such thing. There are only out-boundary Travelcards.
>>>>> There must be a price differential between (1) buying a ticket from a
>>>>> place outside London to the London terminus and (2) buying a ticket
>>>>> from the same place to Zones 1-2.  That was the question.  I do not
>>>>> know all the terminology.
>>>> Actually, if you are stupid enough to buy a ticket to zone 1, the 
>>>> differential is 8 pounds per return ticket.
>>>>
>>>> If you buy a travel card, from my local station the extra costs is about 
>>>> 3.50 without a railcard or 2.30 with.
>>>>
>>> I am not sure what you are comparing with what here.
>>>
>>> Taking a step back, you and Michael have made my point very well.  I
>>> am entirely disinterested in having to think about the intricacies of
>>> ticketing theory before making a journey on public transport.  I just
>>> want to wave the blue card about and get on my way.
>> Go ahead and do so, you'll just pay a few more quid each day if you do 
>> it that way. But please don't try to eliminate the option for those who 
>> would prefer to save that money.
> 
> There are winners and losers in every change.  Fares are set to
> produce an intended level of revenue.  Any zonal system distributes
> the cost fairly crudely between users.  There is no reason why Oyster
> card should result in higher fares overall.  It is just a matter of
> setting the level of fares to produce the required revenue.
> 
> A clue here is in the name - Transport FOR London.

Travelcards are not a TfL-exclusive product.

 > Those living elsewhere just have to fit in.

Apparently, for now you are just going to have to fit in. Sorry if you 
don't like it.
-- 
Michael Hoffman

On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:38:15 +0100, Michael Hoffman
<cam.ac.uk@mh391.invalid> wrote:

>Scott wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:57:07 +0100, Michael Hoffman
>> <cam.ac.uk@mh391.invalid> wrote:
>> 
>>> Scott wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:34:22 +0100, "tim....."
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Scott"  wrote in message 
>>>>> news:dluf64dtv49eatav0onpv2uc2f35q2tvv4@4ax.com...
>>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:02:46 +0100, Michael Hoffman
>>>>>> <cam.ac.uk@mh391.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Scott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:04:52 +0100, Michael Hoffman
>>>>>>>> <cam.ac.uk@mh391.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Scott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It's got nothing to do with residency, it's about whether or not the 
>>>>>>>>>>> ODTC +
>>>>>>>>>>> return journey to the zone edge option will still exist. Unless 
>>>>>>>>>>> Oyster is
>>>>>>>>>>> going to be rolled in the provinces then folks out there will still 
>>>>>>>>>>> need to
>>>>>>>>>>> be able to buy this Travelcard option.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You mean to avoid paying for the same small section of the journey
>>>>>>>>>> twice.  An interesting point that I had not thought of.  But will the
>>>>>>>>>> discount that applies when an Oyser card is used balance this out?
>>>>>>>>> No.
>>>>>>>> So how much is an Travelcard for zones 1-2 when purchased as an add-on
>>>>>>>> to an off-peak rail ticket?
>>>>>>> There is no such thing. There are only out-boundary Travelcards.
>>>>>> There must be a price differential between (1) buying a ticket from a
>>>>>> place outside London to the London terminus and (2) buying a ticket
>>>>>> from the same place to Zones 1-2.  That was the question.  I do not
>>>>>> know all the terminology.
>>>>> Actually, if you are stupid enough to buy a ticket to zone 1, the 
>>>>> differential is 8 pounds per return ticket.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you buy a travel card, from my local station the extra costs is about 
>>>>> 3.50 without a railcard or 2.30 with.
>>>>>
>>>> I am not sure what you are comparing with what here.
>>>>
>>>> Taking a step back, you and Michael have made my point very well.  I
>>>> am entirely disinterested in having to think about the intricacies of
>>>> ticketing theory before making a journey on public transport.  I just
>>>> want to wave the blue card about and get on my way.
>>> Go ahead and do so, you'll just pay a few more quid each day if you do 
>>> it that way. But please don't try to eliminate the option for those who 
>>> would prefer to save that money.
>> 
>> There are winners and losers in every change.  Fares are set to
>> produce an intended level of revenue.  Any zonal system distributes
>> the cost fairly crudely between users.  There is no reason why Oyster
>> card should result in higher fares overall.  It is just a matter of
>> setting the level of fares to produce the required revenue.
>> 
>> A clue here is in the name - Transport FOR London.
>
>Travelcards are not a TfL-exclusive product.
>
> > Those living elsewhere just have to fit in.
>
>Apparently, for now you are just going to have to fit in. Sorry if you 
>don't like it.

I am fitting in.  I buy my ticket to London whether by train or plane
and use my Oyster card (which is brilliant by the way) when I get
there.  I am perfectly happy.

I think other people should fit in and stop whingeing.

Scott wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:38:15 +0100, Michael Hoffman
> <cam.ac.uk@mh391.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> Scott wrote:
>>> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:57:07 +0100, Michael Hoffman
>>> <cam.ac.uk@mh391.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Scott wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:34:22 +0100, "tim....."
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Scott"  wrote in message 
>>>>>> news:dluf64dtv49eatav0onpv2uc2f35q2tvv4@4ax.com...
>>>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:02:46 +0100, Michael Hoffman
>>>>>>> <cam.ac.uk@mh391.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Scott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:04:52 +0100, Michael Hoffman
>>>>>>>>> <cam.ac.uk@mh391.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Scott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It's got nothing to do with residency, it's about whether or not the 
>>>>>>>>>>>> ODTC +
>>>>>>>>>>>> return journey to the zone edge option will still exist. Unless 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Oyster is
>>>>>>>>>>>> going to be rolled in the provinces then folks out there will still 
>>>>>>>>>>>> need to
>>>>>>>>>>>> be able to buy this Travelcard option.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You mean to avoid paying for the same small section of the journey
>>>>>>>>>>> twice.  An interesting point that I had not thought of.  But will the
>>>>>>>>>>> discount that applies when an Oyser card is used balance this out?
>>>>>>>>>> No.
>>>>>>>>> So how much is an Travelcard for zones 1-2 when purchased as an add-on
>>>>>>>>> to an off-peak rail ticket?
>>>>>>>> There is no such thing. There are only out-boundary Travelcards.
>>>>>>> There must be a price differential between (1) buying a ticket from a
>>>>>>> place outside London to the London terminus and (2) buying a ticket
>>>>>>> from the same place to Zones 1-2.  That was the question.  I do not
>>>>>>> know all the terminology.
>>>>>> Actually, if you are stupid enough to buy a ticket to zone 1, the 
>>>>>> differential is 8 pounds per return ticket.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you buy a travel card, from my local station the extra costs is about 
>>>>>> 3.50 without a railcard or 2.30 with.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I am not sure what you are comparing with what here.
>>>>>
>>>>> Taking a step back, you and Michael have made my point very well.  I
>>>>> am entirely disinterested in having to think about the intricacies of
>>>>> ticketing theory before making a journey on public transport.  I just
>>>>> want to wave the blue card about and get on my way.
>>>> Go ahead and do so, you'll just pay a few more quid each day if you do 
>>>> it that way. But please don't try to eliminate the option for those who 
>>>> would prefer to save that money.
>>> There are winners and losers in every change.  Fares are set to
>>> produce an intended level of revenue.  Any zonal system distributes
>>> the cost fairly crudely between users.  There is no reason why Oyster
>>> card should result in higher fares overall.  It is just a matter of
>>> setting the level of fares to produce the required revenue.
>>>
>>> A clue here is in the name - Transport FOR London.
>> Travelcards are not a TfL-exclusive product.
>>
>>> Those living elsewhere just have to fit in.
>> Apparently, for now you are just going to have to fit in. Sorry if you 
>> don't like it.
> 
> I am fitting in.  I buy my ticket to London whether by train or plane
> and use my Oyster card (which is brilliant by the way) when I get
> there.  I am perfectly happy.
> 
> I think other people should fit in and stop whingeing.

Who was whingeing? I'm happy to use the system the way it is. I'm not 
the one who suggested that things be changed to suit me.
-- 
Michael Hoffman

On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:13:39 +0100, Michael Hoffman
<cam.ac.uk@mh391.invalid> wrote:

>Scott wrote:
>> On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:38:15 +0100, Michael Hoffman
>> <cam.ac.uk@mh391.invalid> wrote:
>> 
>>> Scott wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:57:07 +0100, Michael Hoffman
>>>> <cam.ac.uk@mh391.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Scott wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:34:22 +0100, "tim....."
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Scott"  wrote in message 
>>>>>>> news:dluf64dtv49eatav0onpv2uc2f35q2tvv4@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:02:46 +0100, Michael Hoffman
>>>>>>>> <cam.ac.uk@mh391.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Scott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:04:52 +0100, Michael Hoffman
>>>>>>>>>> <cam.ac.uk@mh391.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Scott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's got nothing to do with residency, it's about whether or not the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ODTC +
>>>>>>>>>>>>> return journey to the zone edge option will still exist. Unless 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oyster is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to be rolled in the provinces then folks out there will still 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> need to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be able to buy this Travelcard option.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You mean to avoid paying for the same small section of the journey
>>>>>>>>>>>> twice.  An interesting point that I had not thought of.  But will the
>>>>>>>>>>>> discount that applies when an Oyser card is used balance this out?
>>>>>>>>>>> No.
>>>>>>>>>> So how much is an Travelcard for zones 1-2 when purchased as an add-on
>>>>>>>>>> to an off-peak rail ticket?
>>>>>>>>> There is no such thing. There are only out-boundary Travelcards.
>>>>>>>> There must be a price differential between (1) buying a ticket from a
>>>>>>>> place outside London to the London terminus and (2) buying a ticket
>>>>>>>> from the same place to Zones 1-2.  That was the question.  I do not
>>>>>>>> know all the terminology.
>>>>>>> Actually, if you are stupid enough to buy a ticket to zone 1, the 
>>>>>>> differential is 8 pounds per return ticket.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you buy a travel card, from my local station the extra costs is about 
>>>>>>> 3.50 without a railcard or 2.30 with.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am not sure what you are comparing with what here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Taking a step back, you and Michael have made my point very well.  I
>>>>>> am entirely disinterested in having to think about the intricacies of
>>>>>> ticketing theory before making a journey on public transport.  I just
>>>>>> want to wave the blue card about and get on my way.
>>>>> Go ahead and do so, you'll just pay a few more quid each day if you do 
>>>>> it that way. But please don't try to eliminate the option for those who 
>>>>> would prefer to save that money.
>>>> There are winners and losers in every change.  Fares are set to
>>>> produce an intended level of revenue.  Any zonal system distributes
>>>> the cost fairly crudely between users.  There is no reason why Oyster
>>>> card should result in higher fares overall.  It is just a matter of
>>>> setting the level of fares to produce the required revenue.
>>>>
>>>> A clue here is in the name - Transport FOR London.
>>> Travelcards are not a TfL-exclusive product.
>>>
>>>> Those living elsewhere just have to fit in.
>>> Apparently, for now you are just going to have to fit in. Sorry if you 
>>> don't like it.
>> 
>> I am fitting in.  I buy my ticket to London whether by train or plane
>> and use my Oyster card (which is brilliant by the way) when I get
>> there.  I am perfectly happy.
>> 
>> I think other people should fit in and stop whingeing.
>
>Who was whingeing? I'm happy to use the system the way it is. I'm not 
>the one who suggested that things be changed to suit me.

Those wanting to obstruct the use of Oyster by raising esoteric
objections.

I think that making Oyser available on the trains in the London area
would suit a large number of people as well as me.  If rationalising
the ticket system  helps drive this forward then I'm all for it.

I don't live in london BTW but I accept that it is reasonable that I
should get myself into London and use the benefits of the Oyster card
when I get there.  I don't expect a £1.30 reduction in the price of my
ticket because I have an Oyster card that would cover the last 8
miles.