I could hardly believe, last week, when I tried to buy a One Day
Travelcard at my local newsgent, who had sold them for many years,
that they are no longer available there! The equipment, he told me, as
I could see, had been removed and all he can now do is add credit to
Oyster cards, or sell weekly etc. tickets on Oyster.

This is an outrageous scam by T.F.L., which means I now would now lose
£1 credit on my Oyster in order to get a bus to my local station which
is, presumably, the only place I can now buy a One Day Travelcard.
Does anyone know why one can't get a One Day Travelcard on Oyster?

It's funny that bus drivers don't even seem to know that this is now
the case, since my father when he tried bought a ticket on the bus one
morning was told by the driver that it would be cheaper for him to by
a One Day Bus Pass at the same newsagents!

M.M.

On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 06:40:06 -0700 (PDT), "Mait001@aol.com"
 wrote:

>I could hardly believe, last week, when I tried to buy a One Day
>Travelcard at my local newsgent, who had sold them for many years,
>that they are no longer available there! The equipment, he told me, as
>I could see, had been removed and all he can now do is add credit to
>Oyster cards, or sell weekly etc. tickets on Oyster.
>
>This is an outrageous scam by T.F.L., which means I now would now lose
>£1 credit on my Oyster in order to get a bus to my local station which
>is, presumably, the only place I can now buy a One Day Travelcard.
>Does anyone know why one can't get a One Day Travelcard on Oyster?
>
>It's funny that bus drivers don't even seem to know that this is now
>the case, since my father when he tried bought a ticket on the bus one
>morning was told by the driver that it would be cheaper for him to by
>a One Day Bus Pass at the same newsagents!
>
>M.M.

Why do you need a One Day Travelcard?

If you keep using an Oyster card the price is automatically capped at
the cost of a One Day Travelcard.  So if you use an Oyster card all
day you will be charged for a One Day Travelcard.  If your journey(s)
cost less than that, you will pay less.  Far from being an 'outrageous
scam' as you put it this sounds like a great deal for passengers,
especialy if you take into account the convenience factor of not
having to queue up in a newsagent to buy a Travelcard.

The only exception or anomaly is if you are travelling on a train (ie,
not Underground) but I understand this is to be sorted out.

On Jun 28, 4:33�pm, Scott  wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 06:40:06 -0700 (PDT), "Mait...@aol.com"
>
>
>
>
>
>  wrote:
> >I could hardly believe, last week, when I tried to buy a One Day
> >Travelcard at my local newsgent, who had sold them for many years,
> >that they are no longer available there! The equipment, he told me, as
> >I could see, had been removed and all he can now do is add credit to
> >Oyster cards, or sell weekly etc. tickets on Oyster.
>
> >This is an outrageous scam by T.F.L., which means I now would now lose
> >�1 credit on my Oyster in order to get a bus to my local station which
> >is, presumably, the only place I can now buy a One Day Travelcard.
> >Does anyone know why one can't get a One Day Travelcard on Oyster?
>
> >It's funny that bus drivers don't even seem to know that this is now
> >the case, since my father when he tried bought a ticket on the bus one
> >morning was told by the driver that it would be cheaper for him to by
> >a One Day Bus Pass at the same newsagents!
>
> >M.M.
>
> Why do you need a One Day Travelcard?
>
> If you keep using an Oyster card the price is automatically capped at
> the cost of a One Day Travelcard. �So if you use an Oyster card all
> day you will be charged for a One Day Travelcard. �If your journey(s)
> cost less than that, you will pay less. �Far from being an 'outrageous
> scam' as you put it this sounds like a great deal for passengers,
> especialy if you take into account the convenience factor of not
> having to queue up in a newsagent to buy a Travelcard.
>
> The only exception or anomaly is if you are travelling on a train (ie,
> not Underground) but I understand this is to be sorted out.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Yes, Scott, you hit the nail on the head: I needed to get to use the
train (Clapham Junction to Waterloo), en route to Maidstone.

Maybe it will be "sorted out", but at the moment it is not. A service
that was once available is no longer available, I am losing money and
T.F.L. are profiting by it, which in my view equates to a scam.

Marc.

On Jun 28, 2:40 pm, "Mait...@aol.com"  wrote:
> I could hardly believe, last week, when I tried to buy a One Day
> Travelcard at my local newsgent, who had sold them for many years,
> that they are no longer available there! The equipment, he told me, as
> I could see, had been removed and all he can now do is add credit to
> Oyster cards, or sell weekly etc. tickets on Oyster.
>
> This is an outrageous scam by T.F.L., which means I now would now lose
> £1 credit on my Oyster in order to get a bus to my local station which
> is, presumably, the only place I can now buy a One Day Travelcard.
> Does anyone know why one can't get a One Day Travelcard on Oyster?
>

Are you sure it is TFL making the decision, the tfl website says that
ticket shops can still sell 1 day travelcards (http://
ticketlocator.tfl.gov.uk/ticket_stop.asp). Maybe the newsagent doesn't
want to sell them anymore due to lack of demand. I don't know whether
the ticket shops have to pay for the kit though.

Mait001@aol.com wrote:
> On Jun 28, 4:33�pm, Scott  wrote:
>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 06:40:06 -0700 (PDT), "Mait...@aol.com"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  wrote:
>>> I could hardly believe, last week, when I tried to buy a One Day
>>> Travelcard at my local newsgent, who had sold them for many years,
>>> that they are no longer available there! The equipment, he told me, as
>>> I could see, had been removed and all he can now do is add credit to
>>> Oyster cards, or sell weekly etc. tickets on Oyster.
>>> This is an outrageous scam by T.F.L., which means I now would now lose
>>> �1 credit on my Oyster in order to get a bus to my local station which
>>> is, presumably, the only place I can now buy a One Day Travelcard.
>>> Does anyone know why one can't get a One Day Travelcard on Oyster?
>>> It's funny that bus drivers don't even seem to know that this is now
>>> the case, since my father when he tried bought a ticket on the bus one
>>> morning was told by the driver that it would be cheaper for him to by
>>> a One Day Bus Pass at the same newsagents!
>>> M.M.
>> Why do you need a One Day Travelcard?
>>
>> If you keep using an Oyster card the price is automatically capped at
>> the cost of a One Day Travelcard. �So if you use an Oyster card all
>> day you will be charged for a One Day Travelcard. �If your journey(s)
>> cost less than that, you will pay less. �Far from being an 'outrageous
>> scam' as you put it this sounds like a great deal for passengers,
>> especialy if you take into account the convenience factor of not
>> having to queue up in a newsagent to buy a Travelcard.
>>
>> The only exception or anomaly is if you are travelling on a train (ie,
>> not Underground) but I understand this is to be sorted out.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
> 
> Yes, Scott, you hit the nail on the head: I needed to get to use the
> train (Clapham Junction to Waterloo), en route to Maidstone.
> 
> Maybe it will be "sorted out", but at the moment it is not. A service
> that was once available is no longer available, I am losing money and
> T.F.L. are profiting by it, which in my view equates to a scam.

That is an unusual definition of "scam," which according to most 
dictionaries necessarily involves some sort of deception. This does not. 
I would suggest "profiteering" instead.
-- 
Michael Hoffman

On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 08:40:44 -0700 (PDT), "Mait001@aol.com"
 wrote:

>On Jun 28, 4:33?pm, Scott  wrote:
>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 06:40:06 -0700 (PDT), "Mait...@aol.com"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  wrote:
>> >I could hardly believe, last week, when I tried to buy a One Day
>> >Travelcard at my local newsgent, who had sold them for many years,
>> >that they are no longer available there! The equipment, he told me, as
>> >I could see, had been removed and all he can now do is add credit to
>> >Oyster cards, or sell weekly etc. tickets on Oyster.
>>
>> >This is an outrageous scam by T.F.L., which means I now would now lose
>> >?1 credit on my Oyster in order to get a bus to my local station which
>> >is, presumably, the only place I can now buy a One Day Travelcard.
>> >Does anyone know why one can't get a One Day Travelcard on Oyster?
>>
>> >It's funny that bus drivers don't even seem to know that this is now
>> >the case, since my father when he tried bought a ticket on the bus one
>> >morning was told by the driver that it would be cheaper for him to by
>> >a One Day Bus Pass at the same newsagents!
>>
>> >M.M.
>>
>> Why do you need a One Day Travelcard?
>>
>> If you keep using an Oyster card the price is automatically capped at
>> the cost of a One Day Travelcard. ?So if you use an Oyster card all
>> day you will be charged for a One Day Travelcard. ?If your journey(s)
>> cost less than that, you will pay less. ?Far from being an 'outrageous
>> scam' as you put it this sounds like a great deal for passengers,
>> especialy if you take into account the convenience factor of not
>> having to queue up in a newsagent to buy a Travelcard.
>>
>> The only exception or anomaly is if you are travelling on a train (ie,
>> not Underground) but I understand this is to be sorted out.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>Yes, Scott, you hit the nail on the head: I needed to get to use the
>train (Clapham Junction to Waterloo), en route to Maidstone.
>
>Maybe it will be "sorted out", but at the moment it is not. A service
>that was once available is no longer available, I am losing money and
>T.F.L. are profiting by it, which in my view equates to a scam.
>
>Marc.

Would it not be cheaper to buy a (National) Rail ticket from Clapham
Junction to Maidstone and change at Victoria plus your bus fares,
rather than One Day Travelcard plus rail ticket from Victoria?

A quick look at National Rail Enquires suggests the fare from Victoria
is £14.60 and the fare from Clapham Junction is £15.60.

On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 06:40:06 -0700 (PDT), "Mait001@aol.com"
 wrote:

>I could hardly believe, last week, when I tried to buy a One Day
>Travelcard at my local newsgent, who had sold them for many years,
>that they are no longer available there! The equipment, he told me, as
>I could see, had been removed and all he can now do is add credit to
>Oyster cards, or sell weekly etc. tickets on Oyster.
>
>This is an outrageous scam by T.F.L., which means I now would now lose
>£1 credit on my Oyster in order to get a bus to my local station which
>is, presumably, the only place I can now buy a One Day Travelcard.
>Does anyone know why one can't get a One Day Travelcard on Oyster?
>
>It's funny that bus drivers don't even seem to know that this is now
>the case, since my father when he tried bought a ticket on the bus one
>morning was told by the driver that it would be cheaper for him to by
>a One Day Bus Pass at the same newsagents!

It is not a scam and there's no need for the hyperbole.

TfL are switching over the ticket issuing equipment to one which deals
with Oyster but cannot print tickets. For those ticket products which
would ordinarily be printed TfL are now using pre-encoded ticket stock
which the agent has to date stamp.  I would imagine the agent you used
has not understood whatever TfL / Transys have said to him. He should
have suitable ticket stock and equipment to issue the whole range of
tickets that are retailed from whatever type of "ticket stop" he is.
There may be a glitch in the handover arrangements but there is not some
"money grabbing" scam going on.  TfL are doubling the number of agents
and to do this and put Oyster into all of them different technology to
the old Pass Agent Terminal is required.

-- 
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Scott wrote:

> 
> Why do you need a One Day Travelcard?
>
> The only exception or anomaly is if you are travelling on a train (ie,
> not Underground) but I understand this is to be sorted out.

That would be why then.

mf

On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 18:33:33 +0100, Mystery Flyer
 wrote:

>Scott wrote:
>
>> 
>> Why do you need a One Day Travelcard?
>>
>> The only exception or anomaly is if you are travelling on a train (ie,
>> not Underground) but I understand this is to be sorted out.
>
>That would be why then.
>
>mf

Well spotted Sherlock.

"Scott"  wrote in message 
news:55mc64lhe3uf1e75n0r99fqeuro8mn6hgn@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 06:40:06 -0700 (PDT), "Mait001@aol.com"
>  wrote:
>
>>I could hardly believe, last week, when I tried to buy a One Day
>>Travelcard at my local newsgent, who had sold them for many years,
>>that they are no longer available there! The equipment, he told me, as
>>I could see, had been removed and all he can now do is add credit to
>>Oyster cards, or sell weekly etc. tickets on Oyster.
>>
>>This is an outrageous scam by T.F.L., which means I now would now lose
>>£1 credit on my Oyster in order to get a bus to my local station which
>>is, presumably, the only place I can now buy a One Day Travelcard.
>>Does anyone know why one can't get a One Day Travelcard on Oyster?
>>
>>It's funny that bus drivers don't even seem to know that this is now
>>the case, since my father when he tried bought a ticket on the bus one
>>morning was told by the driver that it would be cheaper for him to by
>>a One Day Bus Pass at the same newsagents!
>>
>>M.M.
>
> Why do you need a One Day Travelcard?

Because you are going on National Rail.

Probably about 50% of people have to do this each day.

tim

On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 20:43:44 +0100, "tim....."
 wrote:

>
>"Scott"  wrote in message 
>news:55mc64lhe3uf1e75n0r99fqeuro8mn6hgn@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 06:40:06 -0700 (PDT), "Mait001@aol.com"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>I could hardly believe, last week, when I tried to buy a One Day
>>>Travelcard at my local newsgent, who had sold them for many years,
>>>that they are no longer available there! The equipment, he told me, as
>>>I could see, had been removed and all he can now do is add credit to
>>>Oyster cards, or sell weekly etc. tickets on Oyster.
>>>
>>>This is an outrageous scam by T.F.L., which means I now would now lose
>>>£1 credit on my Oyster in order to get a bus to my local station which
>>>is, presumably, the only place I can now buy a One Day Travelcard.
>>>Does anyone know why one can't get a One Day Travelcard on Oyster?
>>>
>>>It's funny that bus drivers don't even seem to know that this is now
>>>the case, since my father when he tried bought a ticket on the bus one
>>>morning was told by the driver that it would be cheaper for him to by
>>>a One Day Bus Pass at the same newsagents!
>>>
>>>M.M.
>>
>> Why do you need a One Day Travelcard?
>
>Because you are going on National Rail.
>
>Probably about 50% of people have to do this each day.
>
>tim
>
I think we've established that now.  I would be very surprised if it
was 50% though (of users of One Day Travelcards that is, not  total
commuters).

"Scott"  wrote in message 
news:um5d64du94aon6o1gd0ree8aradjjn77ep@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 20:43:44 +0100, "tim....."
>  wrote:
>
>>
>>"Scott"  wrote in message
>>news:55mc64lhe3uf1e75n0r99fqeuro8mn6hgn@4ax.com...
>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 06:40:06 -0700 (PDT), "Mait001@aol.com"
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>>I could hardly believe, last week, when I tried to buy a One Day
>>>>Travelcard at my local newsgent, who had sold them for many years,
>>>>that they are no longer available there! The equipment, he told me, as
>>>>I could see, had been removed and all he can now do is add credit to
>>>>Oyster cards, or sell weekly etc. tickets on Oyster.
>>>>
>>>>This is an outrageous scam by T.F.L., which means I now would now lose
>>>>£1 credit on my Oyster in order to get a bus to my local station which
>>>>is, presumably, the only place I can now buy a One Day Travelcard.
>>>>Does anyone know why one can't get a One Day Travelcard on Oyster?
>>>>
>>>>It's funny that bus drivers don't even seem to know that this is now
>>>>the case, since my father when he tried bought a ticket on the bus one
>>>>morning was told by the driver that it would be cheaper for him to by
>>>>a One Day Bus Pass at the same newsagents!
>>>>
>>>>M.M.
>>>
>>> Why do you need a One Day Travelcard?
>>
>>Because you are going on National Rail.
>>
>>Probably about 50% of people have to do this each day.
>>
>>tim
>>
> I think we've established that now.  I would be very surprised if it
> was 50% though (of users of One Day Travelcards that is, not  total
> commuters).

Why not.  The majority of people living in South London have no underground 
line that they can reasonably use. Neither do people who live in Ilford, 
Romford, Chingford, Enfield, Southall etc.

tim

On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 16:33:09 +0100, Scott
 wrote:

>Why do you need a One Day Travelcard?

To travel on mainline rail.

I suspect the paper ODTC will be abolished once you can, but in the
meantime it should not be limited in its availability.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:57:22 +0100, Paul Corfield
 wrote:

>TfL are switching over the ticket issuing equipment to one which deals
>with Oyster but cannot print tickets. For those ticket products which
>would ordinarily be printed TfL are now using pre-encoded ticket stock
>which the agent has to date stamp.

Very Dutch.  But if they're pre-encoded isn't that an opportunity for
someone to use one through automatic barriers on multiple days?  Or
are they given different dates on sale or return, or perhaps do they
encode themselves on first use?

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 21:12:43 +0100, "tim....."
 wrote:

>
>"Scott"  wrote in message 
>news:um5d64du94aon6o1gd0ree8aradjjn77ep@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 20:43:44 +0100, "tim....."
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Scott"  wrote in message
>>>news:55mc64lhe3uf1e75n0r99fqeuro8mn6hgn@4ax.com...
>>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 06:40:06 -0700 (PDT), "Mait001@aol.com"
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I could hardly believe, last week, when I tried to buy a One Day
>>>>>Travelcard at my local newsgent, who had sold them for many years,
>>>>>that they are no longer available there! The equipment, he told me, as
>>>>>I could see, had been removed and all he can now do is add credit to
>>>>>Oyster cards, or sell weekly etc. tickets on Oyster.
>>>>>
>>>>>This is an outrageous scam by T.F.L., which means I now would now lose
>>>>>£1 credit on my Oyster in order to get a bus to my local station which
>>>>>is, presumably, the only place I can now buy a One Day Travelcard.
>>>>>Does anyone know why one can't get a One Day Travelcard on Oyster?
>>>>>
>>>>>It's funny that bus drivers don't even seem to know that this is now
>>>>>the case, since my father when he tried bought a ticket on the bus one
>>>>>morning was told by the driver that it would be cheaper for him to by
>>>>>a One Day Bus Pass at the same newsagents!
>>>>>
>>>>>M.M.
>>>>
>>>> Why do you need a One Day Travelcard?
>>>
>>>Because you are going on National Rail.
>>>
>>>Probably about 50% of people have to do this each day.
>>>
>>>tim
>>>
>> I think we've established that now.  I would be very surprised if it
>> was 50% though (of users of One Day Travelcards that is, not  total
>> commuters).
>
>Why not.  The majority of people living in South London have no underground 
>line that they can reasonably use. Neither do people who live in Ilford, 
>Romford, Chingford, Enfield, Southall etc.
>
>tim
>
I dunno.  I have no idea.  You would need to look at ths statistics.
Remember that One Day Travelcards are unlikely to be purchased by
commuters (who probably work more than one day a week) and many will
be purchased by visitors and tourists (who I suspect are more likely
to use tubes and buses than trains).

On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 20:22:32 GMT, wensleydale@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil
Williams) wrote:

>On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 16:33:09 +0100, Scott
> wrote:
>
>>Why do you need a One Day Travelcard?
>
>To travel on mainline rail.
>
>I suspect the paper ODTC will be abolished once you can, but in the
>meantime it should not be limited in its availability.
>
>Neil

Everyone seems to be agreed on that.

If I lived in London I would want to see the Oyster card made
available on all forms of transport.  I would find it very convenient
not to have to anticipate my travel plans in advance and queue up to
buy a Travelcard.

On Jun 28, 9:24 pm, wensleyd...@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil Williams)
wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:57:22 퍝, Paul Corfield
>
>  wrote:
> >TfL are switching over the ticket issuing equipment to one which deals
> >with Oyster but cannot print tickets. For those ticket products which
> >would ordinarily be printed TfL are now using pre-encoded ticket stock
> >which the agent has to date stamp.
>
> Very Dutch.  But if they're pre-encoded isn't that an opportunity for
> someone to use one through automatic barriers on multiple days?  Or
> are they given different dates on sale or return, or perhaps do they
> encode themselves on first use?
>

I'm sure that I've seen travelcards issued like this in the dim and
distant past (from out of the zones though). I believe that the ticket
gets the magnetic strip encoded with the date the first time it goes
through a gate, so it can't be used on a following occasion.

On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 20:24:17 GMT, wensleydale@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil
Williams) wrote:

>On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:57:22 +0100, Paul Corfield
> wrote:
>
>>TfL are switching over the ticket issuing equipment to one which deals
>>with Oyster but cannot print tickets. For those ticket products which
>>would ordinarily be printed TfL are now using pre-encoded ticket stock
>>which the agent has to date stamp.
>
>Very Dutch.  But if they're pre-encoded isn't that an opportunity for
>someone to use one through automatic barriers on multiple days?  Or
>are they given different dates on sale or return, or perhaps do they
>encode themselves on first use?

Your final option - updated coding on first entry - is correct. All
tickets and smartcards are updated whenever there is a valid transaction
at a ticket vending or validation device.
-- 
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Jun 28, 11:42 pm, Paul Corfield  wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 20:24:17 GMT, wensleyd...@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil
>
> Williams) wrote:
> >On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:57:22 퍝, Paul Corfield
> > wrote:
>
> >>TfL are switching over the ticket issuing equipment to one which deals
> >>with Oyster but cannot print tickets. For those ticket products which
> >>would ordinarily be printed TfL are now using pre-encoded ticket stock
> >>which the agent has to date stamp.
>
> >Very Dutch.  But if they're pre-encoded isn't that an opportunity for
> >someone to use one through automatic barriers on multiple days?  Or
> >are they given different dates on sale or return, or perhaps do they
> >encode themselves on first use?
>
> Your final option - updated coding on first entry - is correct. All
> tickets and smartcards are updated whenever there is a valid transaction
> at a ticket vending or validation device.
> --
> Paul C
>
> Admits to working for London Underground!

The fact that this very issue - "Oyster Ticket Stop" agents with new
Oyster-only equipment, denying they can sell a ODTC (when they should
have been supplied with pre-encoded stock to do so)  has come up on
other discussion groups, suggests this is not an isolated problem.
Training / communication / logistics ?  Who knows?

Not a scam, but poor customer service.

DRH

On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 23:42:54 +0100, Paul Corfield
 wrote:

>Your final option - updated coding on first entry - is correct. All
>tickets and smartcards are updated whenever there is a valid transaction
>at a ticket vending or validation device.

Except National Rail barriers, surely?  I was fairly sure they were a
read-only technology.  Or is it just understood that they'll probably
end up used on the Tube first anyway, otherwise they'd have probably
been bought from a mainline ticket office instead?

Similarly, does a Tube barrier write to a NR-encoded Travelcard?
Again, I thought it couldn't.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Jun 29, 8:34 am, wensleyd...@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil Williams)
wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 23:42:54 퍝, Paul Corfield
>
>  wrote:
> >Your final option - updated coding on first entry - is correct. All
> >tickets and smartcards are updated whenever there is a valid transaction
> >at a ticket vending or validation device.
>
> Except National Rail barriers, surely?  I was fairly sure they were a
> read-only technology.  Or is it just understood that they'll probably
> end up used on the Tube first anyway, otherwise they'd have probably
> been bought from a mainline ticket office instead?
>
> Similarly, does a Tube barrier write to a NR-encoded Travelcard?
> Again, I thought it couldn't.
>
> Neil
>
> --
> Neil Williams
> Put my first name before the at to reply.

I believe both NR and LUL use the same encoding system.  NR/LUL
barriers have to write (time and point of entry, etc) to the magstripe
even for ordinary singles, to prevent "passback" (a ticket being
handed back over the barrier for a second passenger to use).

DRH

On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 07:34:11 GMT, wensleydale@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil
Williams) wrote:

>On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 23:42:54 +0100, Paul Corfield
> wrote:
>
>>Your final option - updated coding on first entry - is correct. All
>>tickets and smartcards are updated whenever there is a valid transaction
>>at a ticket vending or validation device.
>
>Except National Rail barriers, surely?  I was fairly sure they were a
>read-only technology.  Or is it just understood that they'll probably
>end up used on the Tube first anyway, otherwise they'd have probably
>been bought from a mainline ticket office instead?
>
>Similarly, does a Tube barrier write to a NR-encoded Travelcard?
>Again, I thought it couldn't.

I'm not going in to a huge explanation on usenet about coding. Needless
to say valid tickets are encoded by gates at NR and LU locations
regardless of where the encoded ticket was issued.   The system of
checking could not work properly if that were not the case.  Valid
Oyster cards, similarly, are updated regardless of where they were
bought, had value added or what validation device is reading / writing
to them.

-- 
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On 29 Jun, 08:52, DRH  wrote:
> On Jun 29, 8:34 am, wensleyd...@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil Williams)
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 23:42:54 +0100, Paul Corfield
>
> >  wrote:
> > >Your final option - updated coding on first entry - is correct. All
> > >tickets and smartcards are updated whenever there is a valid transaction
> > >at a ticket vending or validation device.
>
> > Except National Rail barriers, surely?  I was fairly sure they were a
> > read-only technology.  Or is it just understood that they'll probably
> > end up used on the Tube first anyway, otherwise they'd have probably
> > been bought from a mainline ticket office instead?
>
> > Similarly, does a Tube barrier write to a NR-encoded Travelcard?
> > Again, I thought it couldn't.
>
> > Neil
>
> > --
> > Neil Williams
> > Put my first name before the at to reply.
>
> I believe both NR and LUL use the same encoding system.  NR/LUL
> barriers have to write (time and point of entry, etc) to the magstripe
> even for ordinary singles, to prevent "passback" (a ticket being
> handed back over the barrier for a second passenger to use)

Thats easily bypassed - carry a magnet , go through the barrier , wipe
the stripe with said magnet , pass back to mate who then goes to bloke
at gate and looks innocent saying his ticket doesn't work. Bloke
checks ticket, shrugs shoulders and lets mate through. This would
probably work 99% of the time without the magnet but sometimes they
used to check the ticket with a machine.

B2003

On 28 Jun, 20:43, "tim....."  wrote:
> "Scott"  wrote in message
>
> news:55mc64lhe3uf1e75n0r99fqeuro8mn6hgn@4ax.com...
>
>
>
> > On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 06:40:06 -0700 (PDT), "Mait...@aol.com"
> >  wrote:
>
> >>I could hardly believe, last week, when I tried to buy a One Day
> >>Travelcard at my local newsgent, who had sold them for many years,
> >>that they are no longer available there! The equipment, he told me, as
> >>I could see, had been removed and all he can now do is add credit to
> >>Oyster cards, or sell weekly etc. tickets on Oyster.
>
> >>This is an outrageous scam by T.F.L., which means I now would now lose
> >>£1 credit on my Oyster in order to get a bus to my local station which
> >>is, presumably, the only place I can now buy a One Day Travelcard.
> >>Does anyone know why one can't get a One Day Travelcard on Oyster?
>
> >>It's funny that bus drivers don't even seem to know that this is now
> >>the case, since my father when he tried bought a ticket on the bus one
> >>morning was told by the driver that it would be cheaper for him to by
> >>a One Day Bus Pass at the same newsagents!
>
> >>M.M.
>
> > Why do you need a One Day Travelcard?
>
> Because you are going on National Rail.
>
> Probably about 50% of people have to do this each day.
>
> tim

Since there are more passengers on the underground every day than on
the whole national rail network across Britain, I'm quite sure it's a
lot less than 50%.

Anyway, as has been said, this is a shop owner not understanding the
equpment, not TfL scamming you.

On 29 Jun, 10:16, sweek  wrote:
> On 28 Jun, 20:43, "tim....."  wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Scott"  wrote in message
>
> >news:55mc64lhe3uf1e75n0r99fqeuro8mn6hgn@4ax.com...
>
> > > On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 06:40:06 -0700 (PDT), "Mait...@aol.com"
> > >  wrote:
>
> > >>I could hardly believe, last week, when I tried to buy a One Day
> > >>Travelcard at my local newsgent, who had sold them for many years,
> > >>that they are no longer available there! The equipment, he told me, as
> > >>I could see, had been removed and all he can now do is add credit to
> > >>Oyster cards, or sell weekly etc. tickets on Oyster.
>
> > >>This is an outrageous scam by T.F.L., which means I now would now lose
> > >>£1 credit on my Oyster in order to get a bus to my local station which
> > >>is, presumably, the only place I can now buy a One Day Travelcard.
> > >>Does anyone know why one can't get a One Day Travelcard on Oyster?
>
> > >>It's funny that bus drivers don't even seem to know that this is now
> > >>the case, since my father when he tried bought a ticket on the bus one
> > >>morning was told by the driver that it would be cheaper for him to by
> > >>a One Day Bus Pass at the same newsagents!
>
> > >>M.M.
>
> > > Why do you need a One Day Travelcard?
>
> > Because you are going on National Rail.
>
> > Probably about 50% of people have to do this each day.
>
> > tim
>
> Since there are more passengers on the underground every day than on
> the whole national rail network across Britain, I'm quite sure it's a
> lot less than 50%.

I've read that statistic and I'm very suspicious of it. The trains in
south london are packed and when you throw in the commuter lines in
other large cities such as liverpool, manchester, glasgow, edinburgh
and on top of that cross country and long distance travellers. I'm
pretty sure it must come damn close.

B2003

"sweek"  wrote in message 
news:f7749ac7-b956-49db-96c1-a072ca228318@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On 28 Jun, 20:43, "tim....."  wrote:
> "Scott"  wrote in message
>
> news:55mc64lhe3uf1e75n0r99fqeuro8mn6hgn@4ax.com...
>
>
>
> > On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 06:40:06 -0700 (PDT), "Mait...@aol.com"
> >  wrote:
>
> >>I could hardly believe, last week, when I tried to buy a One Day
> >>Travelcard at my local newsgent, who had sold them for many years,
> >>that they are no longer available there! The equipment, he told me, as
> >>I could see, had been removed and all he can now do is add credit to
> >>Oyster cards, or sell weekly etc. tickets on Oyster.
>
> >>This is an outrageous scam by T.F.L., which means I now would now lose
> >>£1 credit on my Oyster in order to get a bus to my local station which
> >>is, presumably, the only place I can now buy a One Day Travelcard.
> >>Does anyone know why one can't get a One Day Travelcard on Oyster?
>
> >>It's funny that bus drivers don't even seem to know that this is now
> >>the case, since my father when he tried bought a ticket on the bus one
> >>morning was told by the driver that it would be cheaper for him to by
> >>a One Day Bus Pass at the same newsagents!
>
> >>M.M.
>
> > Why do you need a One Day Travelcard?
>
> Because you are going on National Rail.
>
> Probably about 50% of people have to do this each day.
>
> tim

Since there are more passengers on the underground every day than on
the whole national rail network across Britain, I'm quite sure it's a
lot less than 50%.

-----------------------------------------------------------

That is an incorrect use of statistics.  It is not the total journeys that 
count, it is the initial journey.

Many people from South London (on a day out using a ODTC) will make their 
initial journey on National Rail and then (say) 6 journeys on the 
Underground and then a final journey on National Rail back home again.  So 
even people who need a paper ticket before they leave home will make the 
majority of their journeys on the Underground.

tim

wrote in message 
news:3853b55f-4558-43aa-8840-010122cc5fe2@d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On 29 Jun, 10:16, sweek  wrote:
> On 28 Jun, 20:43, "tim....."  wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Scott"  wrote in message
>
> >news:55mc64lhe3uf1e75n0r99fqeuro8mn6hgn@4ax.com...
>
> > > On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 06:40:06 -0700 (PDT), "Mait...@aol.com"
> > >  wrote:
>
> > >>I could hardly believe, last week, when I tried to buy a One Day
> > >>Travelcard at my local newsgent, who had sold them for many years,
> > >>that they are no longer available there! The equipment, he told me, as
> > >>I could see, had been removed and all he can now do is add credit to
> > >>Oyster cards, or sell weekly etc. tickets on Oyster.
>
> > >>This is an outrageous scam by T.F.L., which means I now would now lose
> > >>£1 credit on my Oyster in order to get a bus to my local station which
> > >>is, presumably, the only place I can now buy a One Day Travelcard.
> > >>Does anyone know why one can't get a One Day Travelcard on Oyster?
>
> > >>It's funny that bus drivers don't even seem to know that this is now
> > >>the case, since my father when he tried bought a ticket on the bus one
> > >>morning was told by the driver that it would be cheaper for him to by
> > >>a One Day Bus Pass at the same newsagents!
>
> > >>M.M.
>
> > > Why do you need a One Day Travelcard?
>
> > Because you are going on National Rail.
>
> > Probably about 50% of people have to do this each day.
>
> > tim
>
> Since there are more passengers on the underground every day than on
> the whole national rail network across Britain, I'm quite sure it's a
> lot less than 50%.

I've read that statistic and I'm very suspicious of it. The trains in
south london are packed and when you throw in the commuter lines in
other large cities such as liverpool, manchester, glasgow, edinburgh
and on top of that cross country and long distance travellers. I'm
pretty sure it must come damn close.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's based upon the fact that people make lots of journeys of 2 or 3 stops 
on the Underground.  People don't do this anywhere near as often on National 
Rail (mainly because of the train frequency).

Tim

On Jun 29, 11:25�am, "tim....."  wrote:
>  wrote in message
>
> news:3853b55f-4558-43aa-8840-010122cc5fe2@d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On 29 Jun, 10:16, sweek  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 28 Jun, 20:43, "tim....."  wrote:
>
> > > "Scott"  wrote in message
>
> > >news:55mc64lhe3uf1e75n0r99fqeuro8mn6hgn@4ax.com...
>
> > > > On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 06:40:06 -0700 (PDT), "Mait...@aol.com"
> > > >  wrote:
>
> > > >>I could hardly believe, last week, when I tried to buy a One Day
> > > >>Travelcard at my local newsgent, who had sold them for many years,
> > > >>that they are no longer available there! The equipment, he told me, as
> > > >>I could see, had been removed and all he can now do is add credit to
> > > >>Oyster cards, or sell weekly etc. tickets on Oyster.
>
> > > >>This is an outrageous scam by T.F.L., which means I now would now lose
> > > >>�1 credit on my Oyster in order to get a bus to my local station which
> > > >>is, presumably, the only place I can now buy a One Day Travelcard.
> > > >>Does anyone know why one can't get a One Day Travelcard on Oyster?
>
> > > >>It's funny that bus drivers don't even seem to know that this is now
> > > >>the case, since my father when he tried bought a ticket on the bus one
> > > >>morning was told by the driver that it would be cheaper for him to by
> > > >>a One Day Bus Pass at the same newsagents!
>
> > > >>M.M.
>
> > > > Why do you need a One Day Travelcard?
>
> > > Because you are going on National Rail.
>
> > > Probably about 50% of people have to do this each day.
>
> > > tim
>
> > Since there are more passengers on the underground every day than on
> > the whole national rail network across Britain, I'm quite sure it's a
> > lot less than 50%.
>
> I've read that statistic and I'm very suspicious of it. The trains in
> south london are packed and when you throw in the commuter lines in
> other large cities such as liverpool, manchester, glasgow, edinburgh
> and on top of that cross country and long distance travellers. I'm
> pretty sure it must come damn close.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------�-----------------------
>
> It's based upon the fact that people make lots of journeys of 2 or 3 stops
> on the Underground. �People don't do this anywhere near as often on National
> Rail (mainly because of the train frequency).
>
> Tim- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

As the original poster of this thread, I am delighted that so much
interest has been generated!

But, two points in reply:

1. No-one has answered why One Day Travelcards are not available on
Oyster. That availability would, at a stroke, remove my complaint.

2. My newsagent most definitely does not have any "encoded" or other
ticket stock of any sort. He used to, but does not now. All he has is
the device for adding credit/tickets to Oyster cards. He has no pre-
printed ticket stock of any sort.

Marc.

On 29 Jun, 12:56, "Mait...@aol.com"  wrote:
> On Jun 29, 11:25�am, "tim....."  wrote> >  wrote in message
>
> >news:3853b55f-4558-43aa-8840-010122cc5fe2@d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com..> > On 29 Jun, 10:16, sweek  wrote:
>
> > > On 28 Jun, 20:43, "tim....."  wrote:
>
> > > > "Scott"  wrote in message
>
> > > >news:55mc64lhe3uf1e75n0r99fqeuro8mn6hgn@4ax.com...
>
> > > > > On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 06:40:06 -0700 (PDT), "Mait...@aol.com"
> > > > >  wrote:
>
> > > > >>I could hardly believe, last week, when I tried to buy a One Day
> > > > >>Travelcard at my local newsgent, who had sold them for many years> > > > >>that they are no longer available there! The equipment, he told me, as
> > > > >>I could see, had been removed and all he can now do is add credit to
> > > > >>Oyster cards, or sell weekly etc. tickets on Oyster.
>
> > > > >>This is an outrageous scam by T.F.L., which means I now would now lose
> > > > >>�1 credit on my Oyster in order to get a bus to my local station which
> > > > >>is, presumably, the only place I can now buy a One Day Travelcard> > > > >>Does anyone know why one can't get a One Day Travelcard on Oyster> > > > >>It's funny that bus drivers don't even seem to know that this is now
> > > > >>the case, since my father when he tried bought a ticket on the bus one
> > > > >>morning was told by the driver that it would be cheaper for him to by
> > > > >>a One Day Bus Pass at the same newsagents!
>
> > > > >>M.M.
>
> > > > > Why do you need a One Day Travelcard?
>
> > > > Because you are going on National Rail.
>
> > > > Probably about 50% of people have to do this each day.
>
> > > > tim
>
> > > Since there are more passengers on the underground every day than on
> > > the whole national rail network across Britain, I'm quite sure it's a
> > > lot less than 50%.
>
> > I've read that statistic and I'm very suspicious of it. The trains in
> > south london are packed and when you throw in the commuter lines in
> > other large cities such as liverpool, manchester, glasgow, edinburgh
> > and on top of that cross country and long distance travellers. I'm
> > pretty sure it must come damn close.
>
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------�-----------------------
>
> > It's based upon the fact that people make lots of journeys of 2 or 3 stops
> > on the Underground. �People don't do this anywhere near as often on National
> > Rail (mainly because of the train frequency).
>
> > Tim- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> As the original poster of this thread, I am delighted that so much
> interest has been generated!
>
> But, two points in reply:
>
> 1. No-one has answered why One Day Travelcards are not available on
> Oyster. That availability would, at a stroke, remove my complaint.

Simple - TfL don't give a shit about you. No doubt 1 day travelcards
being used on the mainline was costing them money so they subtly
binned it. All Oyster is is a way for TfL to save money , nothing
more. All this more convenient for passengers balony is just spin.
Smartcard or magnetic strip is irrelevant to most people - they just
want to get to their destinations in a reasonable time and reasonable
comfort for a reasonable price. On which all counts TfL and LUL fail
miserably.

B2003

In message 
, at 
02:41:56 on Sun, 29 Jun 2008, thagor2008@googlemail.com remarked:
>> Since there are more passengers on the underground every day than on
>> the whole national rail network across Britain, I'm quite sure it's a
>> lot less than 50%.
>
>I've read that statistic and I'm very suspicious of it. The trains in
>south london are packed and when you throw in the commuter lines in
>other large cities such as liverpool, manchester, glasgow, edinburgh
>and on top of that cross country and long distance travellers. I'm
>pretty sure it must come damn close.

People are using the tube all day long, not just in the rush hour. And 
for every National Rail commuter who gets out at somewhere like Kings 
Cross, there are at least as many north Londoners staying on the train 
to complete their journey (even in the rush hour).
-- 
Roland Perry

On Jun 29, 10:16 am, sweek  wrote:
> On 28 Jun, 20:43, "tim....."  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Scott"  wrote in message
>
> >news:55mc64lhe3uf1e75n0r99fqeuro8mn6hgn@4ax.com...
>
> > > On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 06:40:06 -0700 (PDT), "Mait...@aol.com"
> > >  wrote:
>
> > >>I could hardly believe, last week, when I tried to buy a One Day
> > >>Travelcard at my local newsgent, who had sold them for many years,
> > >>that they are no longer available there! The equipment, he told me, as> > >>I could see, had been removed and all he can now do is add credit to
> > >>Oyster cards, or sell weekly etc. tickets on Oyster.
>
> > >>This is an outrageous scam by T.F.L., which means I now would now lose> > >>£1 credit on my Oyster in order to get a bus to my local station which
> > >>is, presumably, the only place I can now buy a One Day Travelcard.
> > >>Does anyone know why one can't get a One Day Travelcard on Oyster?
>
> > >>It's funny that bus drivers don't even seem to know that this is now
> > >>the case, since my father when he tried bought a ticket on the bus one> > >>morning was told by the driver that it would be cheaper for him to by
> > >>a One Day Bus Pass at the same newsagents!
>
> > >>M.M.
>
> > > Why do you need a One Day Travelcard?
>
> > Because you are going on National Rail.
>
> > Probably about 50% of people have to do this each day.
>
> > tim
>
> Since there are more passengers on the underground every day than on
> the whole national rail network across Britain, I'm quite sure it's a
> lot less than 50%.

Firstly, given that the people who have no alternative to one day
travelcards are those who use National Rail, surely the relative
proportion of National Rail-using one day travelcard holders must be
increasing?

Secondly, the number people who use LU includes all the people who
funnel in from National Rail, which may well be somewhere near half of
them.

Thirdly, it's not just National Rail.  The DLR sells one day
travelcards but doesn't sell Oyster.

On Jun 29, 1:23 pm, thagor2...@googlemail.com wrote:
> On 29 Jun, 12:56, "Mait...@aol.com"  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 29, 11:25�am, "tim....."  wrote:
>
> > >  wrote in message
>
> > >news:3853b55f-4558-43aa-8840-010122cc5fe2@d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> > > On 29 Jun, 10:16, sweek  wrote:
>
> > > > On 28 Jun, 20:43, "tim....."  wrote:
>
> > > > > "Scott"  wrote in message
>
> > > > >news:55mc64lhe3uf1e75n0r99fqeuro8mn6hgn@4ax.com...
>
> > > > > > On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 06:40:06 -0700 (PDT), "Mait...@aol.com"
> > > > > >  wrote:
>
> > > > > >>I could hardly believe, last week, when I tried to buy a One Day
> > > > > >>Travelcard at my local newsgent, who had sold them for many years,
> > > > > >>that they are no longer available there! The equipment, he told me, as
> > > > > >>I could see, had been removed and all he can now do is add credit to
> > > > > >>Oyster cards, or sell weekly etc. tickets on Oyster.
>
> > > > > >>This is an outrageous scam by T.F.L., which means I now would now lose
> > > > > >>�1 credit on my Oyster in order to get a bus to my local station which
> > > > > >>is, presumably, the only place I can now buy a One Day Travelcard.
> > > > > >>Does anyone know why one can't get a One Day Travelcard on Oyster?
>
> > > > > >>It's funny that bus drivers don't even seem to know that this is now
> > > > > >>the case, since my father when he tried bought a ticket on the bus one
> > > > > >>morning was told by the driver that it would be cheaper for him to by
> > > > > >>a One Day Bus Pass at the same newsagents!
>
> > > > > >>M.M.
>
> > > > > > Why do you need a One Day Travelcard?
>
> > > > > Because you are going on National Rail.
>
> > > > > Probably about 50% of people have to do this each day.
>
> > > > > tim
>
> > > > Since there are more passengers on the underground every day than on
> > > > the whole national rail network across Britain, I'm quite sure it's a
> > > > lot less than 50%.
>
> > > I've read that statistic and I'm very suspicious of it. The trains in
> > > south london are packed and when you throw in the commuter lines in
> > > other large cities such as liverpool, manchester, glasgow, edinburgh
> > > and on top of that cross country and long distance travellers. I'm
> > > pretty sure it must come damn close.
>
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------­�-----------------------
>
> > > It's based upon the fact that people make lots of journeys of 2 or 3 stops
> > > on the Underground. �People don't do this anywhere near as often on National
> > > Rail (mainly because of the train frequency).
>
> > > Tim- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > As the original poster of this thread, I am delighted that so much
> > interest has been generated!
>
> > But, two points in reply:
>
> > 1. No-one has answered why One Day Travelcards are not available on
> > Oyster. That availability would, at a stroke, remove my complaint.
>
> Simple - TfL don't give a shit about you. No doubt 1 day travelcards
> being used on the mainline was costing them money so they subtly
> binned it. All Oyster is is a way for TfL to save money , nothing
> more. All this more convenient for passengers balony is just spin.
> Smartcard or magnetic strip is irrelevant to most people - they just
> want to get to their destinations in a reasonable time and reasonable
> comfort for a reasonable price. On which all counts TfL and LUL fail
> miserably.

They are certainly in denial about the real world situation, and make
their excuses in terms of a situation that they know not to exist.

Like the previous poster, I think it would be very useful to put a one-
day travelcard on Oyster.  Even if you normally only use PAYG, there
will be days when you have to use some National Rail, so get a one-day
travelcard instead.

It must be very common for people in that situation to be in the habit
of touching their Oyster at every gate, thus getting charged twice
(and possibly unresolved journeys).  If the ODTC was on Oyster, it
would know not to charge PAYG.

On Jun 29, 9:38 am, Paul Corfield  wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 07:34:11 GMT, wensleyd...@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil
>
> Williams) wrote:
> >On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 23:42:54 퍝, Paul Corfield
> > wrote:
>
> >>Your final option - updated coding on first entry - is correct. All
> >>tickets and smartcards are updated whenever there is a valid transaction> >>at a ticket vending or validation device.
>
> >Except National Rail barriers, surely?  I was fairly sure they were a
> >read-only technology.  Or is it just understood that they'll probably
> >end up used on the Tube first anyway, otherwise they'd have probably
> >been bought from a mainline ticket office instead?
>
> >Similarly, does a Tube barrier write to a NR-encoded Travelcard?
> >Again, I thought it couldn't.
>
> I'm not going in to a huge explanation on usenet about coding. Needless
> to say valid tickets are encoded by gates at NR and LU locations
> regardless of where the encoded ticket was issued.   The system of
> checking could not work properly if that were not the case.  Valid
> Oyster cards, similarly, are updated regardless of where they were
> bought, had value added or what validation device is reading / writing
> to them.

It seems like an odd system, given the basic assumptions that
passengers are cheats, to provide them with a card that can be used
once for a day of bus and ungated NR, followed by a day of getting
through barriers and little chance of someone looking at the date
stamp.

Anyway "it got me through the barrier so the newsagent must have put
the wrong date on and I didn't notice".