Anyone know?

I've been musing on another Oyster scam.

Buy card for 3 quid - put minimum amount on , say 1 quid. Travel to
and from station where you have to touch in/out because there are no
gates. Get back to your station , touch out - card will go into
negative balance - bin it.

I'm pretty such LU must have thought of this one but I'm wondering if
there are any circumstances you'd end up quids in?

B2003

On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 14:12:48 -0700 (PDT), thagor2008@googlemail.com
wrote:

>Anyone know?

It's the minimum fare at that station - £1 outside Z1 and £1.50 in Z1.

>I've been musing on another Oyster scam.
>
>Buy card for 3 quid - put minimum amount on , say 1 quid. Travel to
>and from station where you have to touch in/out because there are no
>gates. Get back to your station , touch out - card will go into
>negative balance - bin it.

I don't understand this example - especially the no gates bit.  Is the
word "don't" missing in one of the sentences?

>I'm pretty such LU must have thought of this one but I'm wondering if
>there are any circumstances you'd end up quids in?

How do you end up quids in when value is deducted on entry to the
system?
-- 
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

On Jun 18, 10:37 pm, Paul Corfield  wrote:
> I don't understand this example - especially the no gates bit.  Is the
> word "don't" missing in one of the sentences?

Yes, should have said "don't touch in/out".

>
> >I'm pretty such LU must have thought of this one but I'm wondering if
> >there are any circumstances you'd end up quids in?
>
> How do you end up quids in when value is deducted on entry to the
> system?

Huh?

I buy a card for 3 quid + 1 quid value. Go through the gates to DLR or
NR station with no gates.
Come back the same way and touch out at my station. 8 quid gets
deducted so card goes
negative (gates always seem to let you out no matter how negative it
goes as long as its positive
to start with), would have cost 5 quid even if I had touched in /out ,
I paid 4 quid. 1 pound up.

Bin card, rinse and repeat.

B2003

On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 15:24:17 -0700 (PDT), thagor2008@googlemail.com
wrote:

>> How do you end up quids in when value is deducted on entry to the
>> system?
>
>Huh?
>
>I buy a card for 3 quid + 1 quid value. Go through the gates to DLR or
>NR station with no gates.
>Come back the same way and touch out at my station. 8 quid gets
>deducted so card goes
>negative (gates always seem to let you out no matter how negative it
>goes as long as its positive
>to start with),

But at the time you touch out, the balance is -£3. (The 4 quid gets
deducted on entry, and refunded if you touch out correctly.)

On Jun 18, 11:24 pm, thagor2...@googlemail.com wrote:
> I buy a card for 3 quid + 1 quid value. Go through the gates to DLR or
> NR station with no gates.
> Come back the same way and touch out at my station. 8 quid gets
> deducted so card goes
> negative (gates always seem to let you out no matter how negative it
> goes as long as its positive
> to start with), would have cost 5 quid even if I had touched in /out ,
> I paid 4 quid. 1 pound up.
>
> Bin card, rinse and repeat.
>
You still risk getting a penalty fare if you get stopped on your
return journey (unless it's within two hours of your initial entry
where you'd probably only get charged 1GBP anyway when you exit from
the same station.)

There are some corner cases where this could work - I do Watford
Junction to London Euston every day. I'm pretty sure it only takes
1GBP to enter so if you're travelling during the peak hours you could
do a 5.50 journey for 4GBP. Of course you couldn't then continue onto
the underground so if you wanted to do a WJ to Zone 1 journey you'd
have to pay another 1.50 single rather than the extra 50p so a 6GBP
journey for 5GBP.

I don't know about entering at Euston for the return trip - I'd guess
you'd need 2GBP for this, being the single fare to South Hampstead so
you'd save 50p on the return trip. You might be able to do Z1 to
Watford Junction for the same 2GBP, saving you 1GBP.

Either way, the total savings are 2GBP per day in return for queuing
up twice per day to buy a new oyster. And I suspect the station staff
would eventually get to know you and start to get a bit suspicious.

On the legality, I suspect it's a matter of intent. If you eventually
intend to top up your card again, having a second card that allows you
to continue travelling when your first one goes overdrawn is ok. But
deliberately taking advantage of the overdraft facility without any
intention of ever repaying it would be theft.

Tim.

On Jun 19, 10:05 am, "goo...@woodall.me.uk" 
wrote:
> Either way, the total savings are 2GBP per day in return for queuing
> up twice per day to buy a new oyster. And I suspect the station staff
> would eventually get to know you and start to get a bit suspicious.

If you did it every day yes , if its occasionally I doubt it.

> deliberately taking advantage of the overdraft facility without any
> intention of ever repaying it would be theft.

LULs rip off fares for thei utterly shit service are theft IMHO.
Besides , why not use their oh-so-clever extortion system against them
occasionally? Poetic justice.

B2003

On Jun 18, 11:52 pm, asdf <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 15:24:17 -0700 (PDT), thagor2...@googlemail.com
> wrote:
>
> >> How do you end up quids in when value is deducted on entry to the
> >> system?
>
> >Huh?
>
> >I buy a card for 3 quid  1 quid value. Go through the gates to DLR or
> >NR station with no gates.
> >Come back the same way and touch out at my station. 8 quid gets
> >deducted so card goes
> >negative (gates always seem to let you out no matter how negative it
> >goes as long as its positive
> >to start with),
>
> But at the time you touch out, the balance is -£3. (The 4 quid gets
> deducted on entry, and refunded if you touch out correctly.)

The point is you don't touch out at your destination , or touch in on
the return trip.

B2003

"Paul Corfield"  wrote in message 
news:fpvi541uhcn1d35qrtnaglej1qnhta01pf@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 14:12:48 -0700 (PDT), thagor2008@googlemail.com
> wrote:
>
>>Anyone know?
>
> It's the minimum fare at that station - £1 outside Z1 and £1.50 in Z1.
>
<big  snip>
> -- 
> Paul C
>
>

So will the gate at the destination let you out, if after deducting the 
correct fare, the balance on the card is negative?

The reason I ask is that I infrequently visit London, and on my last journey 
I commenced with £3.00 on the card (Z1 to Waterloo) (eurostar was there in 
early November)
and now I have £1.50 sitting on card which won't be used for a year or two 
(it is a registered card-- dunno how long they will allow it to remain 
inactive)

The card previously had a 7 day Travelcard on it, so it has no £3 deposit.

I suspect to avoid giving Tfl a long term interest free loan,  :-)  I should 
try to commence my last journey with only £1.50 on the card.

Cheers

Peter
Sydney

On 22 Jun, 03:39, "peter"  wrote:
> "Paul Corfield"  wrote in message
>
> news:fpvi541uhcn1d35qrtnaglej1qnhta01pf@4ax.com...
>
> > On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 14:12:48 -0700 (PDT), thagor2...@googlemail.com
> > wrote:
>
> >>Anyone know?
>
> > It's the minimum fare at that station - £1 outside Z1 and £1.50 in Z1.
>
> <big  snip>
> > --
> > Paul C
>
> So will the gate at the destination let you out, if after deducting the
> correct fare, the balance on the card is negative?

Always has done for me. Possibly theres some limit but if there is I
don't know what it is.

B2003

On 22 Jun, 10:10, thagor2...@googlemail.com wrote:
> On 22 Jun, 03:39, "peter"  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Paul Corfield"  wrote in message
>
> >news:fpvi541uhcn1d35qrtnaglej1qnhta01pf@4ax.com...
>
> > > On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 14:12:48 -0700 (PDT), thagor2...@googlemail.com
> > > wrote:
>
> > >>Anyone know?
>
> > > It's the minimum fare at that station - £1 outside Z1 and £1.50 in Z1.
>
> > <big  snip>
> > > --
> > > Paul C
>
> > So will the gate at the destination let you out, if after deducting the
> > correct fare, the balance on the card is negative?
>
> Always has done for me. Possibly theres some limit but if there is I
> don't know what it is.
>
> B2003- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

It won't let you start a journey with zero or a negative balance.

On 18 Jun, 23:24, thagor2...@googlemail.com wrote:
> On Jun 18, 10:37 pm, Paul Corfield  wrote:
>
> > I don't understand this example - especially the no gates bit.  Is the> > word "don't" missing in one of the sentences?
>
> Yes, should have said "don't touch in/out".
>
>
>
> > >I'm pretty such LU must have thought of this one but I'm wondering if
> > >there are any circumstances you'd end up quids in?
>
> > How do you end up quids in when value is deducted on entry to the
> > system?
>
> Huh?
>
> I buy a card for 3 quid  1 quid value. Go through the gates to DLR or
> NR station with no gates.
> Come back the same way and touch out at my station. 8 quid gets
> deducted so card goes
> negative (gates always seem to let you out no matter how negative it
> goes as long as its positive
> to start with), would have cost 5 quid even if I had touched in /out ,
> I paid 4 quid. 1 pound up.

Seems like a lot of hassle for a measly quid

On 19 Jun, 18:25, thagor2...@googlemail.com wrote:
> On Jun 19, 10:05 am, "goo...@woodall.me.uk" 
> wrote:
>
> > Either way, the total savings are 2GBP per day in return for queuing
> > up twice per day to buy a new oyster. And I suspect the station staff
> > would eventually get to know you and start to get a bit suspicious.
>
> If you did it every day yes , if its occasionally I doubt it.

Seems a pathetic waste of time. Compare with the almost risk-free ways
of scamming £120/year for Watford->Central London travel, or £624 a
year for cross-london travel (say Epping -> Hammersmith).

> > deliberately taking advantage of the overdraft facility without any
> > intention of ever repaying it would be theft.
>
> LULs rip off fares for thei utterly shit service are theft IMHO.

Good for you. Fare dodgers steal air in my opinion, but the courts
might not agree

> Besides , why not use their oh-so-clever extortion system against them
> occasionally? Poetic justice.

On 22 Jun, 03:39, "peter"  wrote:
> "Paul Corfield"  wrote in message
>
> news:fpvi541uhcn1d35qrtnaglej1qnhta01pf@4ax.com...
>
> > On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 14:12:48 -0700 (PDT), thagor2...@googlemail.com
> > wrote:
>
> >>Anyone know?
>
> > It's the minimum fare at that station - £1 outside Z1 and £1.50 in Z1.
>
> <big  snip>
> > --
> > Paul C
>
> So will the gate at the destination let you out, if after deducting the
> correct fare, the balance on the card is negative?
>
> The reason I ask is that I infrequently visit London, and on my last journey
> I commenced with £3.00 on the card (Z1 to Waterloo) (eurostar was there in
> early November)
> and now I have £1.50 sitting on card which won't be used for a year or two
> (it is a registered card-- dunno how long they will allow it to remain
> inactive)
>
> The card previously had a 7 day Travelcard on it, so it has no £3 deposit.
>
> I suspect to avoid giving Tfl a long term interest free loan,  :-)  I should
> try to commence my last journey with only £1.50 on the card.

Or you could just take it to a ticket window and say "gimme my money".
As it's registered I dont think there's an issue.

On Jun 24, 1:33 pm, Paul Weaver  wrote:
> On 22 Jun, 03:39, "peter"  wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Paul Corfield"  wrote in message
>
> >news:fpvi541uhcn1d35qrtnaglej1qnhta01pf@4ax.com...
>
> > > On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 14:12:48 -0700 (PDT), thagor2...@googlemail.com
> > > wrote:
>
> > >>Anyone know?
>
> > > It's the minimum fare at that station - £1 outside Z1 and £1.50 in Z1.
>
> > <big  snip>
> > > --
> > > Paul C
>
> > So will the gate at the destination let you out, if after deducting the
> > correct fare, the balance on the card is negative?
>
> > The reason I ask is that I infrequently visit London, and on my last journey
> > I commenced with £3.00 on the card (Z1 to Waterloo) (eurostar was there in
> > early November)
> > and now I have £1.50 sitting on card which won't be used for a year or two
> > (it is a registered card-- dunno how long they will allow it to remain
> > inactive)
>
> > The card previously had a 7 day Travelcard on it, so it has no £3 deposit.
>
> > I suspect to avoid giving Tfl a long term interest free loan,  :-)  I should
> > try to commence my last journey with only £1.50 on the card.
>
> Or you could just take it to a ticket window and say "gimme my money".
> As it's registered I dont think there's an issue.

Unless you've used both cash and a credit card to top it up. Then you
can only get the money back by cheque, posted to your address.

Bit of a bugger if your usual currency isn't GBP.

Tim.

wrote in message 
news:b69270eb-619a-457a-bfe4-e93cf781cef8@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 24, 1:33 pm, Paul Weaver  wrote:
>> On 22 Jun, 03:39, "peter"  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > "Paul Corfield"  wrote in message
>>
>> >news:fpvi541uhcn1d35qrtnaglej1qnhta01pf@4ax.com...
>>
>> > > On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 14:12:48 -0700 (PDT), thagor2...@googlemail.com
>> > > wrote:
>>
>> > >>Anyone know?
>>
>> > > It's the minimum fare at that station - £1 outside Z1 and £1.50 in 
>> > > Z1.
>>
>> > <big  snip>
>> > > --
>> > > Paul C
>>
>> > So will the gate at the destination let you out, if after deducting the
>> > correct fare, the balance on the card is negative?
>>
>> > The reason I ask is that I infrequently visit London, and on my last 
>> > journey
>> > I commenced with £3.00 on the card (Z1 to Waterloo) (eurostar was there 
>> > in
>> > early November)
>> > and now I have £1.50 sitting on card which won't be used for a year or 
>> > two
>> > (it is a registered card-- dunno how long they will allow it to remain
>> > inactive)
>>
>> > The card previously had a 7 day Travelcard on it, so it has no £3 
>> > deposit.
>>
>> > I suspect to avoid giving Tfl a long term interest free loan,  :-)  I 
>> > should
>> > try to commence my last journey with only £1.50 on the card.
>>
>> Or you could just take it to a ticket window and say "gimme my money".
>> As it's registered I dont think there's an issue.
>
> Unless you've used both cash and a credit card to top it up. Then you
> can only get the money back by cheque, posted to your address.
>
> Bit of a bugger if your usual currency isn't GBP.
>
> Tim.

Ok thanks for the replies..  I want to keep the card, so in future I will 
just run it down to zero.
It's useful as I can add funds from here (Sydney) prior to any trip to 
London and don't have to pay the £3 deposit

cheers
Peter