I see that the First buses around here have recently started displaying  
bright pink posters about "Food, drink and litter", which in summary say 
that food and drink can cause litter problems, so please do not eat and 
drink on the bus. I have no problem with most of this: the old Midland 
Red West used to have a poster banning "hot or smelly" food, as I recall!

I *do* have a problem, and quite a serious one, with a complete ban even 
on plain water, to the extent that I think it's actively immoral. 
Consider the current situation: today, the Met Office has issued a 
heatwave warning, and one of the strong recommendations made in such 
conditions is "drink plenty of water".

Travelling from Kidderminster to Ludlow (about 70 mins) in heatwave 
conditions without a drink in the 30°C conditions forecast for next week 
is a massively unpleasant proposition, and I don't think it's acceptable 
to require it. I'm aware that many other companies already ban food and 
drink, and I don't think that's acceptable in such conditions either.

Yes, I'm sure staff will use common sense (if only because "child 
hospitalised with dehydration after being denied water on 100°F bus" 
would not be the most welcome of newspaper headlines) just as they do on 
(eg) TWM buses in Birmingham. That's not the point. Passengers shouldn't 
*have* to rely on drivers etc turning a blind eye in order to keep 
themselves healthy.

Okay, I know that was a rant! I'm just getting a bit fed up with bus 
companies shooting themselves in the foot so often by making buses less 
and less comfortable just as car cabins are going the other way.

-- 
Bewdley, Worcs. ~90m asl.

On Fri, 26 Jun 2009 15:53:48 -0500, David Buttery
 wrote:


>I *do* have a problem, and quite a serious one, with a complete ban even 
>on plain water, to the extent that I think it's actively immoral. 
>Consider the current situation: today, the Met Office has issued a 
>heatwave warning, and one of the strong recommendations made in such 
>conditions is "drink plenty of water".
For starters it has been proved time and time again that the Met
Office cannot be relied on only a couple of weeks ago I postponed a
day out thanks to the Met Office saying it was going to piss down
where I was going to go the next day.
>Travelling from Kidderminster to Ludlow (about 70 mins) in heatwave 
>conditions without a drink in the 30°C conditions forecast for next week 
>is a massively unpleasant proposition,
You cannot manage without a drink on a 1 hour and ten minute journey !
massively unpleasant proposition my arse .
> and I don't think it's acceptable 
>to require it. I'm aware that many other companies already ban food and 
>drink, and I don't think that's acceptable in such conditions either.
Then you don't travel by bus than do you simple there are other forms
of transport that you can use .
>Yes, I'm sure staff will use common sense (if only because "child 
>hospitalised with dehydration after being denied water on 100°F bus" 
>would not be the most welcome of newspaper headlines) just as they do on 
>(eg) TWM buses in Birmingham. That's not the point. Passengers shouldn't 
>*have* to rely on drivers etc turning a blind eye in order to keep 
>themselves healthy.
Bollocks .
The other side of the coin is if passengers had taken their empty
cans,plastic bottles, and other receptacles home with them instead
of just throwing them on the bus floor in the past just has they
littered our streets with them then the ban would probably not have
been imposed .

On Fri, 26 Jun 2009 21:45:58 +0000, richard2 wrote:

> For starters it has been proved time and time again that the Met Office
> cannot be relied on

That's just silly. Of course they get things wrong, but they're a lot 
better than relying on guesswork. As far as the next few days are 
concerned, they might not be dead on with the numbers, but I'd be very 
surprised indeed if it weren't pretty hot. Anyway...

> You cannot manage without a drink on a 1 hour and ten minute journey !
> massively unpleasant proposition my arse .

I *can* do it, and have done so, but that doesn't mean it's at all 
comfortable, especially in such conditions. There's so much glass in a 
bus that long periods of midsummer sunshine can make it very hot indeed 
inside, just as is the case in a non-air-conditioned car.

>> and I don't think it's acceptable
>>to require it. I'm aware that many other companies already ban food and
>>drink, and I don't think that's acceptable in such conditions either.
> Then you don't travel by bus than do you simple there are other forms of
> transport that you can use .

On routes where there's a railway, I often do just that despite the cost, 
and this is one of the reasons. On routes where there isn't, what else am 
I supposed to do? I can't drive, incidentally, so don't suggest that. And 
no, that's not of my own free will, and not my fault either.

> Bollocks .

How charming. Did you really have to be so aggressive in your reply?

> The other side of the coin is if passengers had taken their empty
> cans,plastic bottles, and other receptacles home with them instead of
> just throwing them on the bus floor in the past just has they littered
> our streets with them then the ban would probably not have been imposed

Maybe, and I'm not defending littering at all: we as a nation have a very 
bad problem indeed with it. (Mind you, the most frequent thing I find on 
my bus seat is a crumpled copy of the Metro, not any form of food or 
drink container.) However, I do not withdraw my main point, which is that 
it is, though not impossible, very uncomfortable to travel for over an 
hour in summer heat without a drink, and I don't think it's fair.

-- 
Bewdley, Worcs. ~90m asl.

On 26 June, 21:53, David Buttery  wrote:
> I see that the First buses around here have recently started displaying  
> bright pink posters about "Food, drink and litter", which in summary say
> that food and drink can cause litter problems

[snip]

Oh, right, /now/ I see!

I read the subject line and thought, blimey, first National Express do
away with restaurant cars on their trains, now First Bus are taking
the buffets out of their, hang on a minute, how many buses offer
refreshments these days anyway?

It might have made more sense if I'd known where First Wyvern operate.
I take it they're not a long distance coach operator then?

I can't really see any operator refusing transport to somebody
carrying a bottle of water. On London Underground it's almost a
requirement: <http://www.tfl.gov.uk/gettingaround/5295.aspx> advises
people to "Carry water with you whenever you can, particularly in hot
weather".
--
Pat Ricroft, City of Salford, UK
================================

On Fri, 26 Jun 2009 15:53:48 -0500, David Buttery
 wrote:

>I *do* have a problem, and quite a serious one, with a complete ban even 
>on plain water, to the extent that I think it's actively immoral. 

I've never seen a bus driver object to plain water.  While I like to
enjoy a coffee on the bus on a longer journey where permitted, I can
understand how one being spilled causes an almighty mess (and
potentially damage) to the bus's interior.  Water doesn't to the same
extent, once it's dried.

The UK is, after all, not the US, where these things tend to be
enforced with rather over-the-top penalties.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Fri, 26 Jun 2009 23:13:34 -0500, David Buttery
 wrote:


> As far as the next few days are 
>concerned, they might not be dead on with the numbers, but I'd be very 
>surprised indeed if it weren't pretty hot. Anyway...
The Met have got it so wrong so many times this year regarding the
Northwest I do not take a bit of notice anymore and rely on my
instincts and it is very rare that I get it wrong . Supposed to be hot
and sticky here today in fact it has been just right for me in fact we
have just had one hell of a shower that has cooled it down even more. 
>I *can* do it, and have done so, but that doesn't mean it's at all 
>comfortable, especially in such conditions.
I never carry food and drink can't be bothered to be honest sooner
wait till journey's end plus one can cut out the need to go by not
drinking during a journey especially if it is a long one . I journey
down to London a few times a year over two hours by train and I never
take a drink until I arrive at Euston even though there are toilets on
the train ,  the simple reason being I will not leave my belongings to
the mercy of thieves and vagabonds while I go to the toilet and I
refuse to cart my belongings along with me .
>There's so much glass in a 
>bus that long periods of midsummer sunshine can make it very hot indeed 
>inside, just as is the case in a non-air-conditioned car.
Many buses these days do have aircon and also windows that open and
close .
>How charming. Did you really have to be so aggressive in your reply?
Well fussy people like yourself are enough to make the pope swear.
> However, I do not withdraw my main point, which is that 
>it is, though not impossible, very uncomfortable to travel for over an 
>hour in summer heat without a drink, and I don't think it's fair.
Well the last time I experanced any real summer heat was back in the
seventies then I was living down south .

On Sat, 27 Jun 2009 05:31:57 -0700, Pat Ricroft wrote:

<snip>
> It might have made more sense if I'd known where First Wyvern operate. I
> take it they're not a long distance coach operator then?

I had trouble with the subject line, to be honest: that was the best I 
could do to combine being reasonably specific with not going on for words 
and words! I wasn't even that certain that First Wyvern was the official 
name, since they only use "First" on most of their publicity and the 
address painted on the bus sides is still "First Midland Red Buses".

> I can't really see any operator refusing transport to somebody carrying
> a bottle of water. On London Underground it's almost a requirement:
> <http://www.tfl.gov.uk/gettingaround/5295.aspx> advises people to "Carry
> water with you whenever you can, particularly in hot weather".

Away from my personal feelings, there are some interesting contrasts 
here. Train operators seem on the whole to be happy about people bringing 
their own food and drink, even on (eg) the Merseyrail electric lines 
where there are no very long journeys and which have never provided their 
own catering. Of course, most trains have litter bins even these days, 
which might have something to do with it.

Buses seem increasingly to ban it, as seen with First Wyvern. I don't 
know about tram systems as a whole, but Midland Metro certainly bans food 
and drink, even on the section running into Snow Hill where the trams run 
parallel to the trains - which *do* allow it! The trams have conductors, 
so enforcing the rule would be simpler than on a bus with just the 
driver, but I've not seen anyone chucked out for drinking water.

-- 
Bewdley, Worcs. ~90m asl.

On Sat, 27 Jun 2009 17:01:20 +0000, richard2 wrote:

> The Met have got it so wrong so many times this year regarding the
> Northwest I do not take a bit of notice anymore and rely on my instincts
<snip>

They do tend to be a bit more interested in SE England than anywhere 
else, I'll grant you that. But as far as the coming heat is concerned, 
it's hardly as if the Met Office are the only ones predicting it. I just 
looked at the GFS model, a computer prediction from the US government, 
and that is also showing high temperatures for the next few days. It's 
not alone, either.

> Many buses these days do have aircon and also windows that open and
> close .

Aircon? Just a pipe dream on the buses around here. Windows, yes, but too 
few, and unlike the old slider type, hoppers can only be open or closed; 
there's no fine control.

<snip>
> Well the last time I experanced any real summer heat was back in the
> seventies then I was living down south .

Probably the summer of 1976, which was certainly exceptional - though the 
hottest month ever recorded was much more recently: July 2006.

-- 
Bewdley, Worcs. ~90m asl.

On Sat, 27 Jun 2009 12:24:22 -0500, David Buttery
 wrote:

>They do tend to be a bit more interested in SE England than anywhere 
>else, I'll grant you that. But as far as the coming heat is concerned, 
>it's hardly as if the Met Office are the only ones predicting it. I just 
>looked at the GFS model, a computer prediction from the US government, 
>and that is also showing high temperatures for the next few days. It's 
>not alone, either.
Well there are two BBC forecasters that are usually " about" right one
being Rob McElwee and the other Laura Tobin the rest like you have
stated think the UK is all counties south of Bedford shire .
>> Many buses these days do have aircon and also windows that open and
>> close .
>
>Aircon? Just a pipe dream on the buses around here. Windows, yes, but too 
>few, and unlike the old slider type, hoppers can only be open or closed; 
>there's no fine control.
Around this area Transdev Lancashire united are the main operators
with their entire fleet being no more than four years old and are a
pleasure to travel in unlike the crappy vehicles that Stagecoach use
15 miles down the road in the Preston area .  

>Probably the summer of 1976, which was certainly exceptional - though the 
>hottest month ever recorded was much more recently: July 2006.
Ah yes I had forgotten about 2006 although I felt sure we had a hot
summer after 76 .

On 27 June, 21:02, richa...@ntlworld.com wrote:
> Well there are two BBC forecasters that are usually " about" right one
> being Rob McElwee and the other Laura Tobin the rest like you have
> stated think the UK is all counties south of Bedford shire

And presumably Carol Kirkwood doesn't entirely neglect her Morar (near
Mallaig) roots.

--
gordon

On Sat, 27 Jun 2009 20:02:14 +0000, richard2 wrote:

> Well there are two BBC forecasters that are usually " about" right one
> being Rob McElwee and the other Laura Tobin
<snip>

I think Peter Gibbs is worth listening to as well. Rob McElwee I like 
because he actually seems to be interested in weather, as opposed to just 
being a drone.

> Ah yes I had forgotten about 2006 although I felt sure we had a hot
> summer after 76 .

1977 to 1982 were all rather poor summers - cool, wet or both. 1983, 
though, had a hot, dry July and August. Since then, the years that stick 
in the mind for heatwaves are 1990, 1995, 2003 and (as mentioned) 2006, 
all of which managed 35°C at some point. 10 August 2003 was the day on 
which 100°F was reached in SE England.

-- 
Bewdley, Worcs. ~90m asl.

On Sat, 27 Jun 2009 17:01:20 GMT, richard2@ntlworld.com wrote:

>  the simple reason being I will not leave my belongings to
>the mercy of thieves and vagabonds while I go to the toilet and I
>refuse to cart my belongings along with me .

UK trains are quite safe places.  I've left stuff in the rack loads of
times to go to the bog/buffet and it's never been nicked.  The worst I
had was someone moving my coat off a seat into the rack thinking it
was abandoned (because the buffet was quite busy and I was away for a
long time) to take my seat, but he moved when I came back and asked
him to.

Not that there isn't a risk, but I'm less concerned about it in the UK
than in mainland Europe, where I've heard loads of stories about
luggage theft.  It may be one of the side benefits of "closed"
stations.

The main trick is not to go if there is a station coming up, so if
someone *does* steal something they can only be somewhere on the train
with it.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Sat, 27 Jun 2009 12:19:36 -0500, David Buttery
 wrote:

>Away from my personal feelings, there are some interesting contrasts 
>here. Train operators seem on the whole to be happy about people bringing 
>their own food and drink, even on (eg) the Merseyrail electric lines 
>where there are no very long journeys and which have never provided their 
>own catering.

This might be an enforceability thing - to get your chips onto the
bus, you've got to get them past the driver, whereas on a DOO train
there's probably no-one to stop you.

As for Merseyrail, for some reason I remember when I was a kid that
they had a "don't eat cooked food on trains" campaign, but kebabs and
chips are usual fare (!) on the 23somethings out of Liverpool.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Sat, 27 Jun 2009 18:57:41 -0500, David Buttery
 wrote:


>I think Peter Gibbs is worth listening to as well. Rob McElwee I like 
>because he actually seems to be interested in weather, as opposed to just 
>being a drone.
I think you got it right there David Rob always leaves me with the
impression that he would have liked to have gone on for another
hour:)) .

>1977 to 1982 were all rather poor summers - cool, wet or both. 1983, 
>though, had a hot, dry July and August. Since then, the years that stick 
>in the mind for heatwaves are 1990, 1995, 2003 and (as mentioned) 2006, 
>all of which managed 35°C at some point. 10 August 2003 was the day on 
>which 100°F was reached in SE England.
Well there aren't any heat waves around here to day I have just been
sat in the garden having a smoke and had to come in and put on a
sweater its very chilly here today.

On Sun, 28 Jun 2009 07:16:28 GMT, wensleydale@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil
Williams) wrote:


>UK trains are quite safe places.  I've left stuff in the rack loads of
>times to go to the bog/buffet and it's never been nicked.  
It isn't just the nicking of my stuff it is also the fact that someone
may just take a look in my bag and nick my passport etc plus on my
outward journey I always have quite a lot of cash in my hold all and
on the return it has 5K of tobacco in it plus cash etc . May seem a
little stupid having cash in there but I feel it is safer in there
than in my pockets .
>Not that there isn't a risk, but I'm less concerned about it in the UK
>than in mainland Europe, where I've heard loads of stories about
>luggage theft.
My God yes I don't even take my eyes of my bag when on Belgium trains.
>The main trick is not to go if there is a station coming up, so if
>someone *does* steal something they can only be somewhere on the train
>with it.
I agree Neil but its isn't worth the aggro much better to keep your
eyes on your goods at all times when traveling .these new busses with
the luggage space at the front frighten me . You get people boarding
the bus putting their bags in the space and marching to the rear of
the bus anyone getting of could quite easily pick up your bag on the
way off and they haven't a cat in hells chance of stopping them .

On Sun, 28 Jun 2009 09:40:09 GMT, richard2@ntlworld.com wrote:

>It isn't just the nicking of my stuff it is also the fact that someone
>may just take a look in my bag and nick my passport etc

I never, ever, ever put my passport in my bag when travelling[1].  It
stays in my pocket at all times.  I don't tend to carry a lot of cash
because cash cards can be used practically everywhere to withdraw a
reasonable amount, though I do tend to conceal a credit card somewhere
in my bag "just in case" which can easily be cancelled if it did get
nicked.

[1] Actually that's not quite true - I tend to put pocket contents in
the top of my bag when it goes through the airport X-ray, but at no
other time is my passport anywhere other than on my person, or in a
safe in a trustworthy hotel, I suppose.

>plus on my
>outward journey I always have quite a lot of cash in my hold all and
>on the return it has 5K of tobacco in it plus cash etc . May seem a
>little stupid having cash in there but I feel it is safer in there
>than in my pockets .

I'd go the other way - but I see few reasons to carry a lot of cash
when travelling these days.

>My God yes I don't even take my eyes of my bag when on Belgium trains.

Quite.

>I agree Neil but its isn't worth the aggro much better to keep your
>eyes on your goods at all times when traveling .these new busses with
>the luggage space at the front frighten me . You get people boarding
>the bus putting their bags in the space and marching to the rear of
>the bus anyone getting of could quite easily pick up your bag on the
>way off and they haven't a cat in hells chance of stopping them .

So don't leave anything valuable there.  But buses have had luggage
space at the front for years.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Sun, 28 Jun 2009 11:31:57 GMT, wensleydale@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil
Williams) wrote:
>I never, ever, ever put my passport in my bag when travelling[1].  It
>stays in my pocket at all times.
I think the only reason mine goes in my bag is force of habit there
isn't any good reason for a passport not to go in a pocket but my old
black UK passport I found to big to get into a pocket .

>So don't leave anything valuable there.  But buses have had luggage
>space at the front for years.
>
Your " years"don't go back as far has my years Neil I don't think I go
back to when the only luggage space was under the stairs on Decker's
or in the boot on coaches and single Deck service buses .
I may be very distrusting of my fellow men Neil but I have yet to have
anything nicked and yes of course even under stairs stuff could get
nicked if you sat up stairs.

On Sun, 28 Jun 2009 07:18:49 +0000, Neil Williams wrote:

> This might be an enforceability thing - to get your chips onto the bus,
> you've got to get them past the driver, whereas on a DOO train there's
> probably no-one to stop you.
<snip>

I keep forgetting about DOO, since when I lived there (mid-1990s) I think 
those trains still had guards, and there are no DOO trains on my local 
line (Kidderminster-Birmingham) anyway. That said, the Liverpool stations 
have ticket barriers now, and had manual checks then.

-- 
Bewdley, Worcs. ~90m asl.

On Sun, 28 Jun 2009 09:21:17 +0000, richard2 wrote:

<snip>
> Well there aren't any heat waves around here to day I have just been sat
> in the garden having a smoke and had to come in and put on a sweater its
> very chilly here today.

I don't know where "here" is of course, but it's certainly pretty warm in 
Worcestershire: it was 25°C when I checked a few minutes ago, and is 
uncomfortably humid with it.

-- 
Bewdley, Worcs. ~90m asl.

On Sun, 28 Jun 2009 10:36:34 -0500, David Buttery
 wrote:

>On Sun, 28 Jun 2009 09:21:17 +0000, richard2 wrote:
>
><snip>
>> Well there aren't any heat waves around here to day I have just been sat
>> in the garden having a smoke and had to come in and put on a sweater its
>> very chilly here today.
>
>I don't know where "here" is of course,
East Lancs pretty close to the pennies 
> but it's certainly pretty warm in 
>Worcestershire: it was 25°C when I checked a few minutes ago, and is 
>uncomfortably humid with it.
I think we are getting cold easterly's blowing over from the east
coast it has been quite a nice day here hope it remains the same for
all week I just cannot stand hot sun or the humidity that goes along
with it .

On 26 June, 21:53, David Buttery  wrote:
> I see that the First buses around here have recently started displaying  
> bright pink posters about "Food, drink and litter", which in summary say
> that food and drink can cause litter problems, so please do not eat and
> drink on the bus. I have no problem with most of this: the old Midland
> Red West used to have a poster banning "hot or smelly" food, as I recall!
>
> I *do* have a problem, and quite a serious one, with a complete ban even
> on plain water, to the extent that I think it's actively immoral.
> Consider the current situation: today, the Met Office has issued a
> heatwave warning, and one of the strong recommendations made in such
> conditions is "drink plenty of water".
>
> Travelling from Kidderminster to Ludlow (about 70 mins) in heatwave
> conditions without a drink in the 30°C conditions forecast for next week
> is a massively unpleasant proposition, and I don't think it's acceptable
> to require it. I'm aware that many other companies already ban food and
> drink, and I don't think that's acceptable in such conditions either.
>
> Yes, I'm sure staff will use common sense (if only because "child
> hospitalised with dehydration after being denied water on 100°F bus"
> would not be the most welcome of newspaper headlines) just as they do on
> (eg) TWM buses in Birmingham. That's not the point. Passengers shouldn't
> *have* to rely on drivers etc turning a blind eye in order to keep
> themselves healthy.
>
> Okay, I know that was a rant! I'm just getting a bit fed up with bus
> companies shooting themselves in the foot so often by making buses less
> and less comfortable just as car cabins are going the other way.
>
> --
> Bewdley, Worcs. ~90m asl.

First Glasgow have been doing this for some time, not that many people
follow orders in that respect on Glasgow buses.