Since HMG decided to issue these pan-England bus passes to the over
60s, they are only usable on "local" bus services.  What constitutes a
"local" bus service for this purpose?

Holders of the Pan-Scotland bus pass allows over 60s to travel on any
Scottish bus service whether long distance or local?

When are we going to get a Pan-UK bus pass on the same terms as the
Scottish one?

-- 
Alasdair.

On Mon, 05 May 2008 02:27:27 +0100, Alasdair 
wrote:

>Since HMG decided to issue these pan-England bus passes to the over
>60s, they are only usable on "local" bus services.  What constitutes a
>"local" bus service for this purpose?
>
>Holders of the Pan-Scotland bus pass allows over 60s to travel on any
>Scottish bus service whether long distance or local?
>
>When are we going to get a Pan-UK bus pass on the same terms as the
>Scottish one?

Have a look on here:

http://www.travel-manager.co.uk/fueldutyrebate.html

"Whats that mean in plain english?
In plain english, your service must be a local service (ie. in a
specific geographic area) and have regular, known stops, which are
published in advance. It must have 50% or more of the seats available
to the general public to purchase tickets on demand and the fares must
be reasonably priced."

Also, I think the stops have to be less than 30km apart to qualify for
FDR which is why services like Arriva's Manchester - Liverpool Airport
and, I think, Stagecoach's Preston - Manchester services have stops at
MSAs on the M62 and M61 respectively. No one ever gets on or off there
but as it's an official stop they qualify for FDR. ISTR Glasgow -
Edinburgh Citylink services do likewise.

On Mon, 05 May 2008 02:27:27 +0100, Alasdair 
wrote:

>Since HMG decided to issue these pan-England bus passes to the over
>60s, they are only usable on "local" bus services.  What constitutes a
>"local" bus service for this purpose?
>
>Holders of the Pan-Scotland bus pass allows over 60s to travel on any
>Scottish bus service whether long distance or local?
>

In my opinion there are far to many different rules and regs
associated with this system for  example I can use my pass
on my local park and ride services yet on looking through the 
Warrington council's web site last night I noticed that their pass
holders cannot use the passes on their P&R buses .
Now has the whole idea of the free nationwide bus  passes for the over
60's was a central government scheme the R&R's should be the same also
with no distinction between any issuing council or county council
regarding the rules etc governing the scheme.
>When are we going to get a Pan-UK bus pass on the same terms as the
>Scottish one?
The issue regarding Scottish and Welsh is different and I have
maintained that since devaluation of these two countries that it
should have been COMPLEAT devaluation with NO monitory input
from Westminster whatsoever and NO Scottish or Welsh MP's in
Westminster either. If they want to make their own laws
etc then they can find the money themselves to support all they do .
On a different note I somehow get the feeling that the scheme is going
to flounder before long unless government intend to put more money
into it or tax payers put more in by way of increased council tax .
Alasdair lets not get greedy less than 40 years ago my local council
was issuing bus tokens to the value of £ 20.00 for the year to OAP's
and even then the £ 20.00 didn't last all that long and people had to
think before going on the bus 1/3d return from my village to the town
now around the £ 3.00 mark  .
Lets now be satisfied with what we have got I can see that before long
someone will be suggesting that we be allowed to travel on European
bus networks for free also ! .

On Mon, 05 May 2008 12:03:09 +0100, Cheeky  wrote:


>Also, I think the stops have to be less than 30km apart to qualify for
>FDR which is why services like Arriva's Manchester - Liverpool Airport
>and, I think, Stagecoach's Preston - Manchester services have stops at
>MSAs on the M62 and M61 respectively.
Don't really know about the Arriva service the only Manchester Liv
airport service I can find is operated from Shudehill Interchange
Manchester and is Service Number: A40 Provider: Terravision and passes
are not allowed to be used on the service and likewise regarding the
Preston Trafford center service operated by Stagecoach .
Regarding the X61 Blackpool- Preston -Manchester service the only time
this service touches the Motorways is a short burst down the M55
Blackpool to Kirkham and again for about three miles of the M61 from
Bamber Bridge to Chorley .

wrote...
>On Mon, 05 May 2008 12:03:09 +0100, Cheeky  wrote:
>
>
>>Also, I think the stops have to be less than 30km apart to qualify for
>>FDR which is why services like Arriva's Manchester - Liverpool Airport
>>and, I think, Stagecoach's Preston - Manchester services have stops at
>>MSAs on the M62 and M61 respectively.
>Don't really know about the Arriva service the only Manchester Liv
>airport service I can find is operated from Shudehill Interchange
>Manchester and is Service Number: A40 Provider: Terravision

Arriva no. 700. see:
http://www.gmpte.com/upload/routemaps/Man_TT_Ser_700_3_JUNE_07.pdf
-- 
Martin Clark

On Mon, 5 May 2008 20:05:35 +0100, Martin Clark  wrote:


>Arriva no. 700. see:
>http://www.gmpte.com/upload/routemaps/Man_TT_Ser_700_3_JUNE_07.pdf
Thanks for info Martin the Travline route finders do not give all the
info regarding most destinations but I thought there must be a service
bus available to the airport also .

On Mon, 05 May 2008 14:18:02 GMT, mymail@hotmail.co.uk wrote:

>On Mon, 05 May 2008 12:03:09 +0100, Cheeky  wrote:
>
>
>>Also, I think the stops have to be less than 30km apart to qualify for
>>FDR which is why services like Arriva's Manchester - Liverpool Airport
>>and, I think, Stagecoach's Preston - Manchester services have stops at
>>MSAs on the M62 and M61 respectively.
>Don't really know about the Arriva service the only Manchester Liv
>airport service I can find is operated from Shudehill Interchange
>Manchester and is Service Number: A40 Provider: Terravision and passes
>are not allowed to be used on the service and likewise regarding the
>Preston Trafford center service operated by Stagecoach .

That'll be because the A40 is an express coach service whereas the 700
is a local service (AIUI). 

Confusingly there's a NatEx express coach service that operates as a
"local" service on part of its route somewhere around Kirby Lonsdale
and, thus, qualifies for FDR for that section.

On Mon, 05 May 2008 23:13:31 +0100, Cheeky  wrote
>
>That'll be because the A40 is an express coach service whereas the 700
>is a local service (AIUI). 
I gathered that .
>Confusingly there's a NatEx express coach service that operates as a
>"local" service on part of its route somewhere around Kirby Lonsdale
>and, thus, qualifies for FDR for that section.
I would like to know more about the Nat exp route that you mention
here it certainly does not go into Kirby Lonsdale just checked .

On 5 May, 20:05, Martin Clark  wrote:
>  wrote...
> >On Mon, 05 May 2008 12:03:09 퍝, Cheeky  wrote:
>
> >>Also, I think the stops have to be less than 30km apart to qualify for
> >>FDR which is why services like Arriva's Manchester - Liverpool Airport
> >>and, I think, Stagecoach's Preston - Manchester services have stops at
> >>MSAs on the M62 and M61 respectively.
> >Don't really know about the Arriva service the only Manchester Liv
> >airport service I can find is operated from Shudehill Interchange
> >Manchester and is Service Number: A40 Provider: Terravision
>
> Arriva no. 700. see:http://www.gmpte.com/upload/routemaps/Man_TT_Ser_700_3_JUNE_07.pdf
> --
> Martin Clark

 AIUI it's 50km/30 miles between stops - which means that since the
stop at Widnes was introduced there is no need to stop at Burtonwood
[which is only technically accessible via the M62 for intending
passengers who'd have to be dropped off by car to catch it!] for the
purpose of qualifying.

On Mon, 05 May 2008 23:04:52 GMT, mymail@hotmail.co.uk wrote:

>On Mon, 05 May 2008 23:13:31 +0100, Cheeky  wrote
>>
>>That'll be because the A40 is an express coach service whereas the 700
>>is a local service (AIUI). 
>I gathered that .
>>Confusingly there's a NatEx express coach service that operates as a
>>"local" service on part of its route somewhere around Kirby Lonsdale
>>and, thus, qualifies for FDR for that section.
>I would like to know more about the Nat exp route that you mention
>here it certainly does not go into Kirby Lonsdale just checked . 

It's something lodged in the back of my memory from a project I worked
on a few years ago. It's eminently possible that things have changed
since then but there was *definitely* a NatEx coach service that ran a
short distance in Cumbria as a local service. My mind says Kirby
Lonsdale to Kendal... but I may be mistaken.

On Tue, 06 May 2008 22:05:59 +0100, Cheeky  wrote:

>On Mon, 05 May 2008 23:04:52 GMT, mymail@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 05 May 2008 23:13:31 +0100, Cheeky  wrote
>>>
>>>That'll be because the A40 is an express coach service whereas the 700
>>>is a local service (AIUI). 
>>I gathered that .
>>>Confusingly there's a NatEx express coach service that operates as a
>>>"local" service on part of its route somewhere around Kirby Lonsdale
>>>and, thus, qualifies for FDR for that section.
>>I would like to know more about the Nat exp route that you mention
>>here it certainly does not go into Kirby Lonsdale just checked . 
>
>It's something lodged in the back of my memory from a project I worked
>on a few years ago. It's eminently possible that things have changed
>since then but there was *definitely* a NatEx coach service that ran a
>short distance in Cumbria as a local service. My mind says Kirby
>Lonsdale to Kendal... but I may be mistaken. 
I know you are right regarding NatEx running local for part of the way
I read this recently myself but it is STC that operates the Kendal
Kirby Lonsdale route .I like Kirby Lonsdale and would have a trip
round that part of the world only for the fact that I hate the drag by
bus from Preston to Lancaster had to do it in either direction 5 days
a week a few years ago and not for free as it would be now :)))))))) .

Cheeky wrote...
>
>Confusingly there's a NatEx express coach service that operates as a
>"local" service on part of its route somewhere around Kirby Lonsdale
>and, thus, qualifies for FDR for that section.

Isn't there also a NatEx service running between Manchester and
Sheffield that operates as a "local" service along the Woodhead road
through Crowden, The Flouch, Langsett, etc?
-- 
Martin Clark

On Tue, 6 May 2008 23:30:23 +0100, Martin Clark  wrote:

>Cheeky wrote...
>>
>>Confusingly there's a NatEx express coach service that operates as a
>>"local" service on part of its route somewhere around Kirby Lonsdale
>>and, thus, qualifies for FDR for that section.
>
>Isn't there also a NatEx service running between Manchester and
>Sheffield that operates as a "local" service along the Woodhead road
>through Crowden, The Flouch, Langsett, etc?
I wouldn't know about that Martin but the area you mention sounds ripe
for it , it is a long time since I was over the snake or woodhead .
I do wish there was a site on the net that explained fully which
services you can use with the national bus pass I had to browbeat
Stagecoach to confirm that the X 61 Manchester Blackpool service is
acceptable for pass use .
It is only by reading this group and from somewhere else I forget
where about the NatEx use I am one of these guys that do not intend to
die wondering and I got to thinking the other week if the pass could
be used on the Mersey Ferry's and to get the answer which is yes I had
to ring MF direct to find out .
I actually feel that all this information should be made readily
available to all pass holders they should not have to drag the info
out bit by bit its a bit like somebody sticking a rocket in my back
yard and saying this will take you to the moon and then buggering of
without telling me how to get it started :)) .

On 7 May, 00:10, mym...@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
> On Tue, 6 May 2008 23:30:23 +0100, Martin Clark  wrote:
> >Cheeky wrote...
>
> >>Confusingly there's a NatEx express coach service that operates as a
> >>"local" service on part of its route somewhere around Kirby Lonsdale
> >>and, thus, qualifies for FDR for that section.
>
> >Isn't there also a NatEx service running between Manchester and
> >Sheffield that operates as a "local" service along the Woodhead road
> >through Crowden, The Flouch, Langsett, etc?
>
> I wouldn't know about that Martin but the area you mention sounds ripe
> for it , it is a long time since I was over the snake or woodhead .
> I do wish there was a site on the net that explained fully which
> services you can use with the national bus pass I had to browbeat
> Stagecoach to confirm that the X 61 Manchester Blackpool service is
> acceptable for pass use .
> It is only by reading this group and from somewhere else I forget
> where about the NatEx use I am one of these guys that do not intend to
> die wondering and I got to thinking the other week if the pass could
> be used on the Mersey Ferry's and to get the answer which is yes I had
> to ring MF direct to find out .

I would imagine that the usual [and strange] Mersey Ferries system of
applying for a boarding card at the booking office with your
concession will apply - you can't just breeze onto the ferry waving a
pass, and that goes for all local concessions, zone and saveaway
tickets on off-peak sailings. However, extending a national bus pass
to the boats is very definitely a UXB.

As for NatEx, I remember in NBC days using my staff pass to travel
free, not at the usual discount, fom Plymouth to Penzance as NX was,
even then, the only regular stage carriage service on that route in
the evening.

On Wed, 7 May 2008 09:51:55 -0700 (PDT), 4208fm@googlemail.com wrote:

>I would imagine that the usual [and strange] Mersey Ferries system of
>applying for a boarding card at the booking office with your
>concession will apply

It's not strange as such, because the ferry, unlike a train, is
required to know exactly how many people are on board and not exceed
the specified number[1].  It's also meant to be[2] to discourage
people taking freebie river cruises - you're meant to get off at the
other side, even if you then board the next ferry.

[1] I know buses also are, but it's a lot easier for the driver to see
how busy his bus is than it is to work out the same for a fairly big
boat, and with a bus a few extra isn't going to result in problems if
it sinks and there aren't enough liferaft places.

[2] It isn't difficult to stay on board without being noticed.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Tue, 06 May 2008 22:21:11 GMT, mymail@hotmail.co.uk wrote:

>On Tue, 06 May 2008 22:05:59 +0100, Cheeky  wrote:
>

>>It's something lodged in the back of my memory from a project I worked
>>on a few years ago. It's eminently possible that things have changed
>>since then but there was *definitely* a NatEx coach service that ran a
>>short distance in Cumbria as a local service. My mind says Kirby
>>Lonsdale to Kendal... but I may be mistaken. 

>I know you are right regarding NatEx running local for part of the way
>I read this recently myself but it is STC that operates the Kendal
>Kirby Lonsdale route .I like Kirby Lonsdale and would have a trip
>round that part of the world only for the fact that I hate the drag by
>bus from Preston to Lancaster had to do it in either direction 5 days
>a week a few years ago and not for free as it would be now :)))))))) .

Thanks for confirming I'm not going crackers!

"Neil Williams"  wrote in message 
news:48221012.88776300@news.individual.net...
> On Wed, 7 May 2008 09:51:55 -0700 (PDT), 4208fm@googlemail.com wrote:
>
>>I would imagine that the usual [and strange] Mersey Ferries system of
>>applying for a boarding card at the booking office with your
>>concession will apply
>
> It's not strange as such, because the ferry, unlike a train, is
> required to know exactly how many people are on board and not exceed
> the specified number[1].  It's also meant to be[2] to discourage
> people taking freebie river cruises - you're meant to get off at the
> other side, even if you then board the next ferry.
>
> [1] I know buses also are, but it's a lot easier for the driver to see
> how busy his bus is than it is to work out the same for a fairly big
> boat, and with a bus a few extra isn't going to result in problems if
> it sinks and there aren't enough liferaft places.
>
> [2] It isn't difficult to stay on board without being noticed.


Ummm... don't they "count the pax ON and then count the pax OFF".... if #OFF 
is smaller than #ON then someone must have fallen overboard..... air sea 
rescue... coastguards.... helicopters.... LOTS of bother.

Whereas if someone stays on the bus, you just take it through the wash.

With the windows open.

On Wed, 07 May 2008 21:26:30 GMT, "Ian D Henden" 
wrote:

>Ummm... don't they "count the pax ON and then count the pax OFF".... if #OFF 
>is smaller than #ON then someone must have fallen overboard..... air sea 
>rescue... coastguards.... helicopters.... LOTS of bother.

The difficulty with this is that the Mersey Ferries operate in
continuous circles, thus meaning there isn't a start and end per-se.

>Whereas if someone stays on the bus, you just take it through the wash.
>
>With the windows open. 

:)

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

"Alasdair"  wrote in message 
news:ibos145mrrii5q02mkdre6ve4psecl3hus@4ax.com...

Q
> When are we going to get a Pan-UK bus pass on the same terms as the
> Scottish one?
>
> -- 
> Alasdair.

A
When we get a National Government covering bus concessionary travel.

On 5 May, 14:57, mym...@hotmail.co.uk wrote:

> Lets now be satisfied with what we have got I can see that before long
> someone will be suggesting that we be allowed to travel on European
> bus networks for free also ! .

Yeah - free travel on space shuttles for all over 60 [55 in France].
Subject to being first to apply for a boarding card obviously.

On 7 May, 21:27, wensleyd...@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil Williams) wrote:
> On Wed, 7 May 2008 09:51:55 -0700 (PDT), 420...@googlemail.com wrote:
> >I would imagine that the usual [and strange] Mersey Ferries system of
> >applying for a boarding card at the booking office with your
> >concession will apply
>
> It's not strange as such, because the ferry, unlike a train, is
> required to know exactly how many people are on board and not exceed
> the specified number[1].  It's also meant to be[2] to discourage
> people taking freebie river cruises - you're meant to get off at the
> other side, even if you then board the next ferry.
>
> [1] I know buses also are, but it's a lot easier for the driver to see
> how busy his bus is than it is to work out the same for a fairly big
> boat, and with a bus a few extra isn't going to result in problems if
> it sinks and there aren't enough liferaft places.
>
> [2] It isn't difficult to stay on board without being noticed.
>
> Neil
>
> --
> Neil Williams
> Put my first name before the at to reply.

Do the same regulations apply on other PTE ferries, e.g.the Shields
ferry on Tyneside [if it's still going, which I imagine it must be]?
I've not been on that or any other public ferries lately except the
Torpoint a few years back where we got driven onto the ferry on a bus
and none of the operational staff paid us any attention.

Remember that the Mersey Ferries are nowadays primarily a tourist
attraction and not a public transport function in the way they used to
be. It strikes me that the boarding card requirement is more to
frustrate those who want to exercise their right to use the public
transport function rather than a legal or operational requirement per
se, i.e. that the real reason is [2] above and that [1] is just a
smokescreen.

wrote in message 
news:148f9b8c-d53f-4719-916b-d27266a61298@x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On 7 May, 21:27, wensleyd...@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil Williams) wrote:
> On Wed, 7 May 2008 09:51:55 -0700 (PDT), 420...@googlemail.com wrote:
> >I would imagine that the usual [and strange] Mersey Ferries system of
> >applying for a boarding card at the booking office with your
> >concession will apply
>
> It's not strange as such, because the ferry, unlike a train, is
> required to know exactly how many people are on board and not exceed
> the specified number[1]. It's also meant to be[2] to discourage
> people taking freebie river cruises - you're meant to get off at the
> other side, even if you then board the next ferry.
>
> [1] I know buses also are, but it's a lot easier for the driver to see
> how busy his bus is than it is to work out the same for a fairly big
> boat, and with a bus a few extra isn't going to result in problems if
> it sinks and there aren't enough liferaft places.
>
> [2] It isn't difficult to stay on board without being noticed.
>
> Neil
>
> --
> Neil Williams
> Put my first name before the at to reply.

Do the same regulations apply on other PTE ferries, e.g.the Shields
ferry on Tyneside [if it's still going, which I imagine it must be]?
I've not been on that or any other public ferries lately except the
Torpoint a few years back where we got driven onto the ferry on a bus
and none of the operational staff paid us any attention.

Remember that the Mersey Ferries are nowadays primarily a tourist
attraction and not a public transport function in the way they used to
be. It strikes me that the boarding card requirement is more to
frustrate those who want to exercise their right to use the public
transport function rather than a legal or operational requirement per
se, i.e. that the real reason is [2] above and that [1] is just a
smokescreen.

The requirement to know exactly how many souls are aboard a vessel arose 
from the TownshendThorreson capsize and the Marchioness disaster.  It is 
law.

On Fri, 9 May 2008 02:03:47 -0700 (PDT), 4208fm@googlemail.com wrote:

>On 7 May, 21:27, wensleyd...@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil Williams) wrote:
>> On Wed, 7 May 2008 09:51:55 -0700 (PDT), 420...@googlemail.com wrote:
>> >I would imagine that the usual [and strange] Mersey Ferries system of
>> >applying for a boarding card at the booking office with your
>> >concession will apply
>>
>> It's not strange as such, because the ferry, unlike a train, is
>> required to know exactly how many people are on board and not exceed
>> the specified number[1].  It's also meant to be[2] to discourage
>> people taking freebie river cruises - you're meant to get off at the
>> other side, even if you then board the next ferry.
>>
>> [1] I know buses also are, but it's a lot easier for the driver to see
>> how busy his bus is than it is to work out the same for a fairly big
>> boat, and with a bus a few extra isn't going to result in problems if
>> it sinks and there aren't enough liferaft places.
>>
>> [2] It isn't difficult to stay on board without being noticed.

>Do the same regulations apply on other PTE ferries, e.g.the Shields
>ferry on Tyneside [if it's still going, which I imagine it must be]?

I believe that you are counted on and off but not via use of a card -
someone physically counts.

The Shields Ferry is very much alive. TWPTE have replaced the Shieldsman
with a new vessel that entered service within the last 9 months or so.
Haven't travelled on it yet but there was plenty of info on the Nexus
website.

http://www.nexus.org.uk/wps/wcm/connect/Nexus/Ferry/New+Shields+Ferry/

-- 
Paul C

On Fri, 09 May 2008 21:42:58 +0100, Paul Corfield
 wrote:


>The Shields Ferry is very much alive. TWPTE have replaced the Shieldsman
>with a new vessel that entered service within the last 9 months or so.
>Haven't travelled on it yet but there was plenty of info on the Nexus
>website.
>
>http://www.nexus.org.uk/wps/wcm/connect/Nexus/Ferry/New+Shields+Ferry/
We have a similar ferry which ply's between Fleetwood and Knot end
here in Lancashire . Hope your service doesn't treat its passengers to
a deafening recorded announcement for the entire crossing stating
where the life jackets are located in the vessel ,and it is only a 15
minute crossing.

On Wed, 7 May 2008 09:51:55 -0700 (PDT), 4208fm@googlemail.com wrote:

>I would imagine that the usual [and strange] Mersey Ferries system of
>applying for a boarding card at the booking office with your
>concession will apply - you can't just breeze onto the ferry waving a
>pass, and that goes for all local concessions, zone and saveaway
>tickets on off-peak sailings. However, extending a national bus pass
>to the boats is very definitely a UXB.
>
>As for NatEx, I remember in NBC days using my staff pass to travel
>free, not at the usual discount, fom Plymouth to Penzance as NX was,
>even then, the only regular stage carriage service on that route in
>the evening.

I wasn't aware that the National Bus Pass scheme covered ferries.

-- 
Alasdair.

On Tue, 6 May 2008 03:41:04 -0700 (PDT), 4208fm@googlemail.com wrote:

> AIUI it's 50km/30 miles between stops - which means that since the
>stop at Widnes was introduced there is no need to stop at Burtonwood
>[which is only technically accessible via the M62 for intending
>passengers who'd have to be dropped off by car to catch it!] for the
>purpose of qualifying.

It cannot possibly be 50km/30 miles between stops because the "Arrow"
service between Nottingham and Derby is not available on bus pass and
the whole length of the journey is less than 20 miles.

-- 
Alasdair.

"Alasdair"  wrote in message 
news:o5kb2413qd14bbnfi33kdlnhd973g6qpc6@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 6 May 2008 03:41:04 -0700 (PDT), 4208fm@googlemail.com wrote:
>
>> AIUI it's 50km/30 miles between stops - which means that since the
>>stop at Widnes was introduced there is no need to stop at Burtonwood
>>[which is only technically accessible via the M62 for intending
>>passengers who'd have to be dropped off by car to catch it!] for the
>>purpose of qualifying.
>
> It cannot possibly be 50km/30 miles between stops because the "Arrow"
> service between Nottingham and Derby is not available on bus pass and
> the whole length of the journey is less than 20 miles.
>
> -- 
> Alasdair.

I don't know where Alasdair gets his info from, but I've been using my 
Derbyshire pass on the Nottingham - Derby - Chesterfield Red Arrow since I 
reached 60.  Until 31 March, Nottingham City passes didn't allow free travel 
(though Nottinghamshire ones did), but Red Arrow IS included in the national 
scheme.

Derby to Nottingham is around 16 miles (25 km).  I'm told that the only 
intermediate stop, at Nottm University Hospital (QMC) was included to make 
the service eligible for FDR, though there are usually passengers using that 
stop.