In a bid to relieve the tedium of the porn spammers on this group, I 
thought I would mention the destination blinds on Lothian Buses. I'm 
rather taken with these, for two reasons.

Firstly, they really are blinds, proper old-fashioned roller blinds as 
far as I can make out, and they are very clear to read, even at night. 
Lothian don't seem to have been seduced by the other options on the 
market, such as the crazy dot matrix stuff (difficult to read in 
daylight and impossible to read at night), or the dazzling but not much 
clearer light emitting diodes (so strong that I nearly missed a bus 
once, because I was reading the number on the bus behind it - through 
the front and back windows of the first bus).

And secondly, because Lothian's blinds are fitted front and rear. The 
rear blinds include full destination as well as route number, presumably 
remotely controlled by clever electrics. I'm not sure, but I think 
there's only London buses that still perform this useful service (very 
handy when running for a bus on a road that's served by multiple routes).
-- 
Joyce Whitchurch, Stalybridge, UK
=================================

In message , Joyce Whitchurch 
 writes
>In a bid to relieve the tedium of the porn spammers on this group,
Indeed!   So the least I can do is join in.......

> I thought I would mention the destination blinds on Lothian Buses. I'm 
>rather taken with these, for two reasons.
>
>Firstly, they really are blinds, proper old-fashioned roller blinds as 
>far as I can make out, and they are very clear to read, even at night. 
>Lothian don't seem to have been seduced by the other options on the 
>market, such as the crazy dot matrix stuff (difficult to read in 
>daylight and impossible to read at night), or the dazzling but not much 
>clearer light emitting diodes (so strong that I nearly missed a bus 
>once, because I was reading the number on the bus behind it - through 
>the front and back windows of the first bus).
I'm not a fan of electronic destination displays, even though they have 
become much better in recent times.   They still can't get as much 
information displayed, nor be as flexible, as traditional methods.

I also dislike the "scrolling" nature of some displays.   Often, you 
have only a second or two to read a display and that second or two might 
well be occupied by a "non relevant" part of the destination.   I saw 
one saying just "Indigo Line" the other day for the whole period it was 
passing me.

I also particularly dislike the new London practice of only showing the 
ultimate display.    This is often Not At All Important compared to 
places served en route.   It seems to have been done in response to 
Disability Discrimination legislation;  but that implies to me a 
legalised way of saying that if the visually impaired can't read 
something.......then no-one else can have access to that information 
either.

For a mixture of clarity information and simplicity, though, I think the 
best compromise was that used for decades by Midlands Red and then 
inherited by WMPTE (one of the few Midland Red traditions that did rub 
off on them, actually):  having a two-blind display with one ultimate 
and one "via".

>And secondly, because Lothian's blinds are fitted front and rear. The 
>rear blinds include full destination as well as route number, 
>presumably remotely controlled by clever electrics. I'm not sure, but I 
>think there's only London buses that still perform this useful service 
>(very handy when running for a bus on a road that's served by multiple 
>routes).
More buses seem to have rear numbers now than once did, which is indeed 
a Good Thing.   Other than Lothian, though, I'm not aware of anywhere 
with them now on the rear.

Unless, as they used to say on "That's Life" you know different!

-- 
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

Fully agree with Joyces opinion.

Its surely yet another testimony to just how much of a Quality Operation 
Lothian actually is when stood alongside other,larger,sexier and far more 
commercially centred (!) operators.....

However I note that even Lothian is feeling the pressure and finds itself 
having to follow the rest of the horde allong the 
electronic,flashing,winking,singing,dancing road......Pity That .....

"Ian Jelf"  wrote in message 
news:e3X6Uyc3BQKHFwWi@bluebadge.demon.co.uk...
> In message , Joyce Whitchurch 
>  writes
>
> I also dislike the "scrolling" nature of some displays.   Often, you have 
> only a second or two to read a display and that second or two might well 
> be occupied by a "non relevant" part of the destination.   I saw one 
> saying just "Indigo Line" the other day for the whole period it was 
> passing me.

I completely agree with your comments on this. The problem is probhably 
worse here in Sheffield with ticket promotions, Route promotions and very 
rarely the actual destination shown.

> I also particularly dislike the new London practice of only showing the 
> ultimate display.    This is often Not At All Important compared to places 
> served en route.   It seems to have been done in response to Disability 
> Discrimination legislation;  but that implies to me a legalised way of 
> saying that if the visually impaired can't read something.......then 
> no-one else can have access to that information either.
>
To be honest I actually find this helpful as the older London blinds had far 
to much information on them making them unreadable unless you were virtually 
in front of the bus.
Duncan

Joyce Whitchurch wrote:
> In a bid to relieve the tedium of the porn spammers on this group, I 
> thought I would mention the destination blinds on Lothian Buses. I'm 
> rather taken with these, for two reasons.
> 
> Firstly, they really are blinds, proper old-fashioned roller blinds as 
> far as I can make out, and they are very clear to read, even at night. 
> Lothian don't seem to have been seduced by the other options on the 
> market, such as the crazy dot matrix stuff (difficult to read in 
> daylight and impossible to read at night), or the dazzling but not much 
> clearer light emitting diodes (so strong that I nearly missed a bus 
> once, because I was reading the number on the bus behind it - through 
> the front and back windows of the first bus).
> 
> And secondly, because Lothian's blinds are fitted front and rear. The 
> rear blinds include full destination as well as route number, presumably 
> remotely controlled by clever electrics. I'm not sure, but I think 
> there's only London buses that still perform this useful service (very 
> handy when running for a bus on a road that's served by multiple routes).

Welglade (Trent Barton/Kinchbus) have blinds on the Front and LEDs side 
and rear.

"Ian Jelf"  wrote in message
news:e3X6Uyc3BQKHFwWi@bluebadge.demon.co.uk

[snip]

: : I'm not a fan of electronic destination displays, even
: : though they have become much better in recent times.
: : They still can't get as much information displayed, nor
: : be as flexible, as traditional methods.

The problem with roller blinds, even electrically driven ones, is that 
they are (a) mechanical and prone to failure and (b) limited in what they 
can show. If a new route is added or buses are transferred from one garage 
to another, it can take some time before the blinds are modified to suit, 
resulting in buses on the road with no destinations showing at all.

Electronic blinds, on the other hand, can be programmed by a small 
hand-held box that plugs into a socket on the cab control unit, takes only 
a few seconds per bus.

: : I also dislike the "scrolling" nature of some displays.
: : Often, you have only a second or two to read a display
: : and that second or two might well be occupied by a "non
: : relevant" part of the destination.   I saw one saying
: : just "Indigo Line" the other day for the whole period
: : it was passing me.

That's down to how it's programmed rather than an intrinsic problem with 
the display itself. Talk to those responsible for actually deciding how 
they're programmed..!

Ivor

PS Don't forget the pub next Tuesday, Ian..!

On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 13:04:35 +0000, Mark B  wrote:

>Welglade (Trent Barton/Kinchbus) have blinds on the Front and LEDs side 
>and rear.

Would be interested to know how often they end up set to different
things.  The main reason I like LEDs is that they do tend to get set
on the front, side and rear because it only involves setting one thing
to make them all display correct information, and unlike the
solid-state technologies (electric blinds, manual blinds or flipdot)
will almost never fail "wrong side", i.e. displaying incorrect
information; they'll just display nothing, then that problem can be
"solved" by sticking a bit of A4 in the front windscreen until it can
be fixed.

Talking of Trent, though, while I do like their route branding
exercises, I don't like their approach of often not using numbers at
all.  A large number is far easier to read from a distance than a
small destination; the best approach is to display both, IMO.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 20:45:46 GMT, wensleydale@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil
Williams) wrote:

>unlike the
>solid-state technologies

By which I meant the *non*-solid-state technologies, or the mechanical
ones if you prefer.  Oops.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On 31 Oct, 20:21, Joyce Whitchurch 
wrote:
> In a bid to relieve the tedium of the porn spammers on this group, I
> thought I would mention the destination blinds on Lothian Buses. I'm
> rather taken with these, for two reasons.
>
> Firstly, they really are blinds, proper old-fashioned roller blinds as
> far as I can make out, and they are very clear to read, even at night.
> Lothian don't seem to have been seduced by the other options on the
> market, such as the crazy dot matrix stuff (difficult to read in
> daylight and impossible to read at night), or the dazzling but not much
> clearer light emitting diodes (so strong that I nearly missed a bus
> once, because I was reading the number on the bus behind it - through
> the front and back windows of the first bus).
>
> And secondly, because Lothian's blinds are fitted front and rear. The
> rear blinds include full destination as well as route number, presumably
> remotely controlled by clever electrics. I'm not sure, but I think
> there's only London buses that still perform this useful service (very
> handy when running for a bus on a road that's served by multiple routes).
> --
> Joyce Whitchurch, Stalybridge, UK
> =================================

Arriva buses in my area have electronic displays which scroll and page
to advertise season tickets etc - including the rear display - which
is annoying when you want to run for a bus or it comes at you round a
blind corner and you have to wait 10 seconds or more before you even
know where it is going.

Worse for me as a photographer, and one prefering to snap buses "in
the wild", [see iwasthere.fotoblog.org.uk ] usually at 1/250 sec or
faster, is the way that many of these displays are rendered invisible
or garbled by their high-frequency flashing or scanning, even when
showing a display which is stationary to the naked eye. Apart from the
fact that most modern buses are not very interesting to me, my
attempts to frame pretty compositions of "buses at work" are
frustrated by this phenomenon to the point that I rarely bother
nowadays.

4208fm@googlemail.com wrote:

 > Arriva buses in my area have electronic displays which scroll and page
 > to advertise season tickets etc - including the rear display - which
 > is annoying when you want to run for a bus or it comes at you round a
 > blind corner and you have to wait 10 seconds or more before you even
 > know where it is going.

Arriva Merseyside do that, very annoying, more like 40 seconds before 
the number comes round, quicker to walk to the front to see the number 
and the destination of "Buy a Dayrider".

Still, it's a slight improvement on the old policy of painting over the 
back destination display & the LED's on the front are much more readable 
than traditional blinds which seem to be backlit with nothing half the time.

In message , Ivor Jones 
<ivor@despammed.invalid> writes
>
>
>"Ian Jelf"  wrote in message
>news:e3X6Uyc3BQKHFwWi@bluebadge.demon.co.uk
>
>[snip]
>
>: : I'm not a fan of electronic destination displays, even
>: : though they have become much better in recent times.
>: : They still can't get as much information displayed, nor
>: : be as flexible, as traditional methods.
>
>The problem with roller blinds, even electrically driven ones, is that 
>they are (a) mechanical and prone to failure
Like any other moving part on a bus, they need looking after and 
maintaining.

The doors and even the engine are "mechanical"!

> and (b) limited in what they can show.
In the short term, yes.   They can of course have sections "spliced in" 
but that takes time and even major operators like TWM sometimes don't 
seem to bother.   The 128/129 TWM routes have only *very* recently 
started to show destinations;  I can only assume that for some reason 
"Blackheath" was missing from the blinds but I'm talking of established 
routes over a period of - literally - years.

> If a new route is added or buses are transferred from one garage to 
>another, it can take some time before the blinds are modified to suit, 
>resulting in buses on the road with no destinations showing at all.
See above!

>Electronic blinds, on the other hand, can be programmed by a small 
>hand-held box that plugs into a socket on the cab control unit, takes 
>only a few seconds per bus.
I agree entirely.  It's just that I think they're harder to read.

>: : I also dislike the "scrolling" nature of some displays.
>: : Often, you have only a second or two to read a display
>: : and that second or two might well be occupied by a "non
>: : relevant" part of the destination.   I saw one saying
>: : just "Indigo Line" the other day for the whole period
>: : it was passing me.
>
>That's down to how it's programmed rather than an intrinsic problem 
>with the display itself. Talk to those responsible for actually 
>deciding how they're programmed..!
Feel free to pass on my posting!   ;-)

>PS Don't forget the pub next Tuesday, Ian..!
I won't!
>
>

-- 
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

Neil Williams wrote:
> On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 13:04:35 +0000, Mark B  wrote:
> 
>> Welglade (Trent Barton/Kinchbus) have blinds on the Front and LEDs side 
>> and rear.
> 
> Would be interested to know how often they end up set to different
> things.  The main reason I like LEDs is that they do tend to get set
> on the front, side and rear because it only involves setting one thing
> to make them all display correct information, and unlike the
> solid-state technologies (electric blinds, manual blinds or flipdot)
> will almost never fail "wrong side", i.e. displaying incorrect
> information; they'll just display nothing, then that problem can be
> "solved" by sticking a bit of A4 in the front windscreen until it can
> be fixed.
> 
> Talking of Trent, though, while I do like their route branding
> exercises, I don't like their approach of often not using numbers at
> all.  A large number is far easier to read from a distance than a
> small destination; the best approach is to display both, IMO.
> 
> Neil
> 

As I understand it, they use Electric blinds linked to the LED displays...

4208fm@googlemail.com wrote:
> On 31 Oct, 20:21, Joyce Whitchurch 
> wrote:
>> In a bid to relieve the tedium of the porn spammers on this group, I
>> thought I would mention the destination blinds on Lothian Buses. I'm
>> rather taken with these, for two reasons.
>>
>> Firstly, they really are blinds, proper old-fashioned roller blinds as
>> far as I can make out, and they are very clear to read, even at night.
>> Lothian don't seem to have been seduced by the other options on the
>> market, such as the crazy dot matrix stuff (difficult to read in
>> daylight and impossible to read at night), or the dazzling but not much
>> clearer light emitting diodes (so strong that I nearly missed a bus
>> once, because I was reading the number on the bus behind it - through
>> the front and back windows of the first bus).
>>
>> And secondly, because Lothian's blinds are fitted front and rear. The
>> rear blinds include full destination as well as route number, presumably
>> remotely controlled by clever electrics. I'm not sure, but I think
>> there's only London buses that still perform this useful service (very
>> handy when running for a bus on a road that's served by multiple routes).
>> --
>> Joyce Whitchurch, Stalybridge, UK
>> =================================
> 
> Arriva buses in my area have electronic displays which scroll and page
> to advertise season tickets etc - including the rear display - which
> is annoying when you want to run for a bus or it comes at you round a
> blind corner and you have to wait 10 seconds or more before you even
> know where it is going.
> 
> Worse for me as a photographer, and one prefering to snap buses "in
> the wild", [see iwasthere.fotoblog.org.uk ] usually at 1/250 sec or
> faster, is the way that many of these displays are rendered invisible
> or garbled by their high-frequency flashing or scanning, even when
> showing a display which is stationary to the naked eye. Apart from the
> fact that most modern buses are not very interesting to me, my
> attempts to frame pretty compositions of "buses at work" are
> frustrated by this phenomenon to the point that I rarely bother
> nowadays.
> 

The local Stagecoach uses the Rear displays to scroll the destination in 
the space not taken up by the number.

On 2 Nov, 18:31, Mark B  wrote:
> 420...@googlemail.com wrote:
> > On 31 Oct, 20:21, Joyce Whitchurch 
> > wrote:
> >> In a bid to relieve the tedium of the porn spammers on this group, I
> >> thought I would mention the destination blinds on Lothian Buses. I'm
> >> rather taken with these, for two reasons.
>
> >> Firstly, they really are blinds, proper old-fashioned roller blinds as
> >> far as I can make out, and they are very clear to read, even at night.
> >> Lothian don't seem to have been seduced by the other options on the
> >> market, such as the crazy dot matrix stuff (difficult to read in
> >> daylight and impossible to read at night), or the dazzling but not much
> >> clearer light emitting diodes (so strong that I nearly missed a bus
> >> once, because I was reading the number on the bus behind it - through
> >> the front and back windows of the first bus).
>
> >> And secondly, because Lothian's blinds are fitted front and rear. The
> >> rear blinds include full destination as well as route number, presumably
> >> remotely controlled by clever electrics. I'm not sure, but I think
> >> there's only London buses that still perform this useful service (very
> >> handy when running for a bus on a road that's served by multiple routes).
> >> --
> >> Joyce Whitchurch, Stalybridge, UK
> >> =================================
>
> > Arriva buses in my area have electronic displays which scroll and page
> > to advertise season tickets etc - including the rear display - which
> > is annoying when you want to run for a bus or it comes at you round a
> > blind corner and you have to wait 10 seconds or more before you even
> > know where it is going.
>
> > Worse for me as a photographer, and one prefering to snap buses "in
> > the wild", [see iwasthere.fotoblog.org.uk ] usually at 1/250 sec or
> > faster, is the way that many of these displays are rendered invisible
> > or garbled by their high-frequency flashing or scanning, even when
> > showing a display which is stationary to the naked eye. Apart from the
> > fact that most modern buses are not very interesting to me, my
> > attempts to frame pretty compositions of "buses at work" are
> > frustrated by this phenomenon to the point that I rarely bother
> > nowadays.
>
> The local Stagecoach uses the Rear displays to scroll the destination in
> the space not taken up by the number.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Stagecoach Western manage to fit "4 Ayr" in the rear number box of a
B10M/PS