Http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/6284134.stm

*******************************************************************
One dead after bus station crash

One injured person can be seen in this photo taken after the crash
A 66-year-old woman has died in hospital after two buses collided at a 
bus station in the Black Country.
She was one of six people taken to hospital after the accident at the 
bus station in Walsall town centre.

It is thought a single-decker Arriva bus went the wrong way down a 
one-way street and collided with a double-decker and three other cars.

Police said the woman was a pedestrian. A 59-year-old woman is in a 
serious but stable condition in hospital.

   The bus came out of the terminal and ended up against a double decker 
bus and a van from a local restaurant

Witness, Dominic Leadbetter

A West Midlands Ambulance spokesman said another woman suffered leg 
injuries and three men in their 40s suffered minor injuries.

The Arriva bus driver is among the injured. Another person was treated 
at the scene for shock.

The injuries could have been far worse given the number of vehicles 
involved, the spokesman added.

An investigation has been opened and no-one has been arrested, West 
Midlands Police said.

The bus also collided with three other vehicles

"The bus came out of the terminal and ended up against a double decker 
bus and a van from a local restaurant."

Another eye witness said both buses had a lot of passengers on board.

He said: "I heard some loud bangs and then some screams. I have never 
heard anything like it.

"The bus hit a van and a car and it was only stopped by the number 51 
bus, a Travel West Midlands bus."

He added he saw three people lying on the floor, one of whom seemed to 
have a head injury and another with ripped trousers.

Steve Swingler, of Centro-West Midlands passenger transport authority, 
said the bus station had now reopened and services would be back to 
normal on Tuesday.
-- 
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

On 10 Jul, 09:21, Ian Jelf  wrote:
> Http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/6284134.stm
>
> *******************************************************************
> One dead after bus station crash
>
> One injured person can be seen in this photo taken after the crash
> A 66-year-old woman has died in hospital after two buses collided at a
> bus station in the Black Country.
> She was one of six people taken to hospital after the accident at the
> bus station in Walsall town centre.
>
> It is thought a single-decker Arriva bus went the wrong way down a
> one-way street and collided with a double-decker and three other cars.
>
> Police said the woman was a pedestrian. A 59-year-old woman is in a
> serious but stable condition in hospital.
>
>    The bus came out of the terminal and ended up against a double decker
> bus and a van from a local restaurant
>
> Witness, Dominic Leadbetter
>
> A West Midlands Ambulance spokesman said another woman suffered leg
> injuries and three men in their 40s suffered minor injuries.
>
> The Arriva bus driver is among the injured. Another person was treated
> at the scene for shock.
>
> The injuries could have been far worse given the number of vehicles
> involved, the spokesman added.
>
> An investigation has been opened and no-one has been arrested, West
> Midlands Police said.
>
> The bus also collided with three other vehicles
>
> "The bus came out of the terminal and ended up against a double decker
> bus and a van from a local restaurant."
>
> Another eye witness said both buses had a lot of passengers on board.
>
> He said: "I heard some loud bangs and then some screams. I have never
> heard anything like it.
>
> "The bus hit a van and a car and it was only stopped by the number 51
> bus, a Travel West Midlands bus."
>
> He added he saw three people lying on the floor, one of whom seemed to
> have a head injury and another with ripped trousers.
>
> Steve Swingler, of Centro-West Midlands passenger transport authority,
> said the bus station had now reopened and services would be back to
> normal on Tuesday.
> --
> Ian Jelf, MITG
> Birmingham, UK
>
> Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of Englandhttp://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

The way that is written makes it sound like the driver just turned the
wrong way down a one way street causing this mayhem.

The facts are the bus was in the bus station when two drivers were
changing over. The bus then took off from the stand hitting 2 people
on the crossing in the bus station and just kept accelerating with the
engine roaring away. The driver trying to control it then hit the road
vehicles mentioned, the railings protecting the pavement opposite,
stand C in the bus station and then hitting the front nearside corner
of a Travel West Midlands trident, pushing that sideways,

Police/VOSA now have the job of finding out why this happened.

The driver is a very long serving driver who has been driving into and
out of Walsall for many years, so certainly did not just take a wrong
turning!

Tony

On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 09:45:43 -0700, "TFHunter@aol.com"
 wrote:

>On 10 Jul, 09:21, Ian Jelf  wrote:
>> Http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/6284134.stm
>>
>> *******************************************************************
>> One dead after bus station crash
>>
>> One injured person can be seen in this photo taken after the crash
>> A 66-year-old woman has died in hospital after two buses collided at a
>> bus station in the Black Country.
>> She was one of six people taken to hospital after the accident at the
>> bus station in Walsall town centre.
>>


>The way that is written makes it sound like the driver just turned the
>wrong way down a one way street causing this mayhem.
>
>The facts are the bus was in the bus station when two drivers were
>changing over. The bus then took off from the stand hitting 2 people
>on the crossing in the bus station and just kept accelerating with the
>engine roaring away. The driver trying to control it then hit the road
>vehicles mentioned, the railings protecting the pavement opposite,
>stand C in the bus station and then hitting the front nearside corner
>of a Travel West Midlands trident, pushing that sideways,
>
>Police/VOSA now have the job of finding out why this happened.
>
>The driver is a very long serving driver who has been driving into and
>out of Walsall for many years, so certainly did not just take a wrong
>turning!

Thank you for the more detailed explanation. Having become overly
familiar with Walsall Bus Station over the last 9 months I was really
surprised when it was suggested that someone simply turned the wrong
way. The photographs pointed to that happening but clearly don't tell
the full story.  A dreadful episode all round.
-- 
Paul C

Paul Corfield wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 09:45:43 -0700, "TFHunter@aol.com"
>  wrote:
> 
>>On 10 Jul, 09:21, Ian Jelf  wrote:
>>> Http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/6284134.stm
>>>
>>> *******************************************************************
>>> One dead after bus station crash
>>>
>>> One injured person can be seen in this photo taken after the crash
>>> A 66-year-old woman has died in hospital after two buses collided at a
>>> bus station in the Black Country.
>>> She was one of six people taken to hospital after the accident at the
>>> bus station in Walsall town centre.
>>>
Spooky. I drive an ex West MIdands Travel Leyland Lynx into Boston bus
station. My number is also 51.

"stephen"  wrote in message 
news:f734k6$7dv$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
> Paul Corfield wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 09:45:43 -0700, "TFHunter@aol.com"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>On 10 Jul, 09:21, Ian Jelf  wrote:
>>>> Http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/6284134.stm
>>>>
>>>> *******************************************************************
>>>> One dead after bus station crash
>>>>
>>>> One injured person can be seen in this photo taken after the crash
>>>> A 66-year-old woman has died in hospital after two buses collided at 
>>>> a
>>>> bus station in the Black Country.
>>>> She was one of six people taken to hospital after the accident at the
>>>> bus station in Walsall town centre.
>
> Spooky. I drive an ex West MIdands Travel Leyland Lynx into Boston bus
> station. My number is also 51.

Ah, the old rattletrap Lynx..! I miss them terribly (not..!)

Do the cab windows still sound like they're about to fall out and does the 
heating stick on full blast all the time..?!

Which one was it, can I ask..? TWM fleet no..?


Ivor

Ivor Jones wrote:



> 
> Ah, the old rattletrap Lynx..! I miss them terribly (not..!)
> 
> Do the cab windows still sound like they're about to fall out and does the
> heating stick on full blast all the time..?!

Yes, and the doors stick open too, depending on how strong the wind is and
which way it's blowing as to which one sticks. The ZF gearbox is constantly
in the red zone. I nearly forgot to mention the bit where you have to
switch the ignition off and restart constantly to engage reverse gear. Does
that sound familiar?
> 
> Which one was it, can I ask..? TWM fleet no..?

> I would have to see if there is a number anywhere. We had our two
repainted. THe reg is G138EOG. THE Other one IS G197EOG.

"stephen"  wrote in message 
news:f73ffd$ith$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
> Ivor Jones wrote:
>
>> Ah, the old rattletrap Lynx..! I miss them terribly (not..!)
>>
>> Do the cab windows still sound like they're about to fall out and does 
>> the
>> heating stick on full blast all the time..?!
>
> Yes, and the doors stick open too, depending on how strong the wind is 
> and
> which way it's blowing as to which one sticks. The ZF gearbox is 
> constantly
> in the red zone. I nearly forgot to mention the bit where you have to
> switch the ignition off and restart constantly to engage reverse gear. 
> Does
> that sound familiar?

Very ;-)

>> Which one was it, can I ask..? TWM fleet no..?
>
>> I would have to see if there is a number anywhere. We had our two
> repainted. THe reg is G138EOG. THE Other one IS G197EOG.

Ok, that's easy, the fleet no. was derived from the reg. so they were 
(according to my elderly fleet list, which is still on the network 
un-updated..!) 1138 (ex Lea Hall, where I now languish in a back 
office..!) and 1197 was Yardley Wood.

Ivor

In message , 
"TFHunter@aol.com"  writes
>The way that is written makes it sound like the driver just turned the 
>wrong way down a one way street causing this mayhem.
Reporting of facts can garble the truth more often than most people 
realise!

>The facts are the bus was in the bus station when two drivers were 
>changing over.
I'm not being picky here (honestly!) But does that have any relevance to 
what happened?   Presumably the changeover *had* taken place so only one 
driver was involved.

> The bus then took off from the stand hitting 2 people on the crossing 
>in the bus station and just kept accelerating with the engine roaring 
>away. The driver trying to control it then hit the road vehicles 
>mentioned, the railings protecting the pavement opposite, stand C in 
>the bus station and then hitting the front nearside corner of a Travel 
>West Midlands trident, pushing that sideways,
Stories of buses running away like this are not unknown.   I've heard to 
examples over the years, one at the old WMPTE garage at Dudley which 
unfortunately killed a conductress, which all rather dates it;  and 
another more recently in Birmingham City Centre when a bus of a local 
independent operator embedded itself in the front of Toys R Us, 
fortunately without serious injury.

>Police/VOSA now have the job of finding out why this happened.
The outcome of these never seems to be revealed and I wonder if this 
Walsall incident, too, will fade from general memory and findings of the 
inquiry be revealed?

>The driver is a very long serving driver who has been driving into and 
>out of Walsall for many years, so certainly did not just take a wrong 
>turning!
It did seem quite unlikely.   Wrong turns are not unknown on bus routes 
but not generally in Bus Stations!
-- 
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

In message , Ivor Jones 
<ivor@despammed.invalid> writes
>Ah, the old rattletrap Lynx..! I miss them terribly (not..!)

I found them incredibly uncomfortable from a passenger point of view, 
too. Possibly the worst buses I've ever ridden on.
-- 
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

On 12 Jul, 08:28, Ian Jelf  wrote:
> In message ,
> "TFHun...@aol.com"  writes>The way that is written makes it sound like the driver just turned the
> >wrong way down a one way street causing this mayhem.
>
> Reporting of facts can garble the truth more often than most people
> realise!
>
> >The facts are the bus was in the bus station when two drivers were
> >changing over.
>
> I'm not being picky here (honestly!) But does that have any relevance to
> what happened?   Presumably the changeover *had* taken place so only one
> driver was involved.
>
It may have because if you have just got into a Volvo B6 after driving
a dart for the previous 4 hours, things like handbrake & gear controls
will be in different positions.
The obvious way to stop a runaway is to knock it out of gear, then put
every brake you can find on, but if your hand instinctively goes to
where the gear buttons are on the bus you had been driving it may
caused an extra delay in stopping it

Tony

wrote in message 
news:1184263344.995508.85010@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On 12 Jul, 08:28, Ian Jelf  wrote:
>> In message ,
>> "TFHun...@aol.com"  writes>The way that is written 
>> makes it sound like the driver just turned the
>> >wrong way down a one way street causing this mayhem.
>>
>> Reporting of facts can garble the truth more often than most people
>> realise!
>>
>> >The facts are the bus was in the bus station when two drivers were
>> >changing over.
>>
>> I'm not being picky here (honestly!) But does that have any relevance to
>> what happened?   Presumably the changeover *had* taken place so only one
>> driver was involved.
>>
> It may have because if you have just got into a Volvo B6 after driving
> a dart for the previous 4 hours, things like handbrake & gear controls
> will be in different positions.
> The obvious way to stop a runaway is to knock it out of gear, then put
> every brake you can find on, but if your hand instinctively goes to
> where the gear buttons are on the bus you had been driving it may
> caused an extra delay in stopping it
>
>

A number of Leyland Nationals were notorious for the running away
problem one of these Incidents happened to a driving Instructor at Perry 
Barr
WMPTE garage while I was under going driver training, The one at Dudley I 
also remember well as the conductress that was
killed worked with me at Wolverhampton Midland Red before transfer to the 
WMPTE
All the best to Ivor (apologies a bit off topic)

Dave B

wrote in message 
news:1184263344.995508.85010@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On 12 Jul, 08:28, Ian Jelf  wrote:
>> In message ,
>> "TFHun...@aol.com"  writes>The way that is written 
>> makes it sound like the driver just turned the
>> >wrong way down a one way street causing this mayhem.
>>
>> Reporting of facts can garble the truth more often than most people
>> realise!
>>
>> >The facts are the bus was in the bus station when two drivers were
>> >changing over.
>>
>> I'm not being picky here (honestly!) But does that have any relevance 
>> to
>> what happened?   Presumably the changeover *had* taken place so only 
>> one
>> driver was involved.
>>
> It may have because if you have just got into a Volvo B6 after driving
> a dart for the previous 4 hours, things like handbrake & gear controls
> will be in different positions.
> The obvious way to stop a runaway is to knock it out of gear, then put
> every brake you can find on, but if your hand instinctively goes to
> where the gear buttons are on the bus you had been driving it may
> caused an extra delay in stopping it
>

With respect, Tony, is that a viable excuse..? If you are type-trained on 
a particular vehicle, knowing where the controls are should be automatic. 
They're not *that* differently laid out.

Ivor

On 13 Jul, 02:01, "Ivor Jones" <i...@despammed.invalid> wrote:
>  wrote in message
>
> news:1184263344.995508.85010@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 12 Jul, 08:28, Ian Jelf  wrote:
> >> In message ,
> >> "TFHun...@aol.com"  writes>The way that is written
> >> makes it sound like the driver just turned the
> >> >wrong way down a one way street causing this mayhem.
>
> >> Reporting of facts can garble the truth more often than most people
> >> realise!
>
> >> >The facts are the bus was in the bus station when two drivers were
> >> >changing over.
>
> >> I'm not being picky here (honestly!) But does that have any relevance
> >> to
> >> what happened?   Presumably the changeover *had* taken place so only
> >> one
> >> driver was involved.
>
> > It may have because if you have just got into a Volvo B6 after driving
> > a dart for the previous 4 hours, things like handbrake & gear controls
> > will be in different positions.
> > The obvious way to stop a runaway is to knock it out of gear, then put
> > every brake you can find on, but if your hand instinctively goes to
> > where the gear buttons are on the bus you had been driving it may
> > caused an extra delay in stopping it
>
> With respect, Tony, is that a viable excuse..? If you are type-trained on
> a particular vehicle, knowing where the controls are should be automatic.
> They're not *that* differently laid out.
>
> Ivor- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Come on Ivor
Tell me that if you just got in a bus, took the handbrake off, and it
accelerated on it's own without you pressing the accelorator, and
within a second had run two old ladies over, giving one of them fatal
injuries, you would be calm enough to think, I have just got in a B6,
so the gear buttons ar here?

Try looking at Perry Barr's B10Bs if you think buses are not "that
different" while 18 of them have the gear buttons on the dashboard
just to the right of the steering column, you try and find the buttons
on 1378, which are to the left of the steering column!

Tony

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 08:29:57, Ian Jelf 
wrote:
>>
>>Ah, the old rattletrap Lynx..! I miss them terribly (not..!)
>
>I found them incredibly uncomfortable from a passenger point of view, 
>too. Possibly the worst buses I've ever ridden on.

As one who occasionally suffers a journey on a Cardiff Bus example,
Lynx have the worst powertrain I've ever encountered.  They snatch
gears so badly that it's essential to hang on to something, rather
than simply sit in your seat and enjoy the journey!

Thankfully, they'll only be around for another two months.  :-o

Paul Harley

Ian Jelf wrote:

> In message , Ivor Jones
> <ivor@despammed.invalid> writes
>>Ah, the old rattletrap Lynx..! I miss them terribly (not..!)
> 
> I found them incredibly uncomfortable from a passenger point of view,
> too. Possibly the worst buses I've ever ridden on.

Rattletrap is an apt description.

Paul Harley wrote:


> As one who occasionally suffers a journey on a Cardiff Bus example,
> Lynx have the worst powertrain I've ever encountered.  They snatch
> gears so badly that it's essential to hang on to something, rather
> than simply sit in your seat and enjoy the journey!
> 
> Thankfully, they'll only be around for another two months.  :-o

Mine isn't that bad once you get used to its little idiosyncrasies. Perhaps
you have just been unfortunate enough to have had bad drivers? In my
opinion it's the suspension that really lets the bus down.I drive a rural
route and it's not exactly a pleasant experience driving down rutted farm
tracks believe you me. My old Paxton bodied semi Tiger used to soak up the
bumps.

"stephen"  wrote in message 
news:f7chbt$c5k$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk...
> Ian Jelf wrote:
>
>> In message , Ivor Jones
>> <ivor@despammed.invalid> writes
>>>Ah, the old rattletrap Lynx..! I miss them terribly (not..!)
>>
>> I found them incredibly uncomfortable from a passenger point of view,
>> too. Possibly the worst buses I've ever ridden on.
>
> Rattletrap is an apt description.

I have never understood just *how* anyone could start with the Leyland 
National, !improve" it, and come up with the Lynx..... :o(

"ian henden"  wrote in message 
news:e4vmi.26601$ri2.21623@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...
>
> "stephen"  wrote in message 
> news:f7chbt$c5k$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk...
>> Ian Jelf wrote:
>>
>>> In message , Ivor Jones
>>> <ivor@despammed.invalid> writes
>>>>Ah, the old rattletrap Lynx..! I miss them terribly (not..!)
>>>
>>> I found them incredibly uncomfortable from a passenger point of view,
>>> too. Possibly the worst buses I've ever ridden on.
>>
>> Rattletrap is an apt description.
>
> I have never understood just *how* anyone could start with the Leyland 
> National, !improve" it, and come up with the Lynx..... :o(

Indeed. I've never driven a National in service, but a friend used to have 
a preserved one and I drove that a few times. Lovely bus.

Ivor

On 15 Jul, 22:28, "Ivor Jones" <i...@despammed.invalid> wrote:
> "ian henden"  wrote in message
>
> news:e4vmi.26601$ri2.21623@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "stephen"  wrote in message
> >news:f7chbt$c5k$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk...
> >> Ian Jelf wrote:
>
> >>> In message , Ivor Jones
> >>> <i...@despammed.invalid> writes
> >>>>Ah, the old rattletrap Lynx..! I miss them terribly (not..!)
>
> >>> I found them incredibly uncomfortable from a passenger point of view,
> >>> too. Possibly the worst buses I've ever ridden on.
>
> >> Rattletrap is an apt description.
>
> > I have never understood just *how* anyone could start with the Leyland
> > National, !improve" it, and come up with the Lynx..... :o(
>
> Indeed. I've never driven a National in service, but a friend used to have
> a preserved one and I drove that a few times. Lovely bus.
>
> Ivor- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Presumably it was not one with a G2 automatic gearbox. One of my local
operators had a fair proportion of its fleet comprise P R S and T -reg
Nationals which invariably got stuck on a canal bridge which rose
steeply after coming out of a T junction.

On a number of occasions, a full handbrake stop was required to get
the bus moving again. I never drove a G2 but my experiences with the
"improved" hydracyclic in Nationals, Olympians and Tigers was only
marginally better [and I would ensure "H" was used on the canal
bridge!].

My only experience of driving the Lynx was with one of the first push-
button examples [were they ZF or Voith? ISTR the former] and I thought
it a lot better. But it was brand new at the time!

wrote in message 
news:1184575312.133337.39980@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On 15 Jul, 22:28, "Ivor Jones" <i...@despammed.invalid> wrote:
>> "ian henden"  wrote in message
>>
>> news:e4vmi.26601$ri2.21623@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > "stephen"  wrote in message
>> >news:f7chbt$c5k$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk...
>> >> Ian Jelf wrote:
>>
>> >>> In message , Ivor Jones
>> >>> <i...@despammed.invalid> writes
>> >>>>Ah, the old rattletrap Lynx..! I miss them terribly (not..!)
>>
>> >>> I found them incredibly uncomfortable from a passenger point of 
>> >>> view,
>> >>> too. Possibly the worst buses I've ever ridden on.
>>
>> >> Rattletrap is an apt description.
>>
>> > I have never understood just *how* anyone could start with the 
>> > Leyland
>> > National, !improve" it, and come up with the Lynx..... :o(
>>
>> Indeed. I've never driven a National in service, but a friend used to 
>> have
>> a preserved one and I drove that a few times. Lovely bus.
>>
>> Ivor- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Presumably it was not one with a G2 automatic gearbox. One of my local
> operators had a fair proportion of its fleet comprise P R S and T -reg
> Nationals which invariably got stuck on a canal bridge which rose
> steeply after coming out of a T junction.

No, ex-London Transport 2-door one, M-reg IIRC; semi-auto box with a 
"flick" shift lever on the window ledge to the right of the driver's seat. 
Use 2nd to pull off in normal service, first to make your passengers take 
the back seat whether they want to or not ;-)

Ivor

On 10 Jul, 09:21, Ian Jelf  wrote:
> Http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/6284134.stm
>
> *******************************************************************
> One dead after bus station crash
>
> One injured person can be seen in this photo taken after the crash
> A 66-year-old woman has died in hospital after two buses collided at a
> bus station in the Black Country.
> She was one of six people taken to hospital after the accident at the
> bus station in Walsall town centre.
>
> It is thought a single-decker Arriva bus went the wrong way down a
> one-way street and collided with a double-decker and three other cars.
>
> Police said the woman was a pedestrian. A 59-year-old woman is in a
> serious but stable condition in hospital.
>
>    The bus came out of the terminal and ended up against a double decker
> bus and a van from a local restaurant
>
> Witness, Dominic Leadbetter
>
> A West Midlands Ambulance spokesman said another woman suffered leg
> injuries and three men in their 40s suffered minor injuries.
>
> The Arriva bus driver is among the injured. Another person was treated
> at the scene for shock.
>
> The injuries could have been far worse given the number of vehicles
> involved, the spokesman added.
>
> An investigation has been opened and no-one has been arrested, West
> Midlands Police said.
>
> The bus also collided with three other vehicles
>
> "The bus came out of the terminal and ended up against a double decker
> bus and a van from a local restaurant."
>
> Another eye witness said both buses had a lot of passengers on board.
>
> He said: "I heard some loud bangs and then some screams. I have never
> heard anything like it.
>
> "The bus hit a van and a car and it was only stopped by the number 51
> bus, a Travel West Midlands bus."
>
> He added he saw three people lying on the floor, one of whom seemed to
> have a head injury and another with ripped trousers.
>
> Steve Swingler, of Centro-West Midlands passenger transport authority,
> said the bus station had now reopened and services would be back to
> normal on Tuesday.
> --
> Ian Jelf, MITG
> Birmingham, UK
>
> Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of Englandhttp://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

The way that is written makes it sound like the driver just turned the
wrong way down a one way street causing this mayhem.

The facts are the bus was in the bus station when two drivers were
changing over. The bus then took off from the stand hitting 2 people
on the crossing in the bus station and just kept accelerating with the
engine roaring away. The driver trying to control it then hit the road
vehicles mentioned, the railings protecting the pavement opposite,
stand C in the bus station and then hitting the front nearside corner
of a Travel West Midlands trident, pushing that sideways,

Police/VOSA now have the job of finding out why this happened.

The driver is a very long serving driver who has been driving into and
out of Walsall for many years, so certainly did not just take a wrong
turning!

Tony

On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 09:45:43 -0700, "TFHunter@aol.com"
 wrote:

>On 10 Jul, 09:21, Ian Jelf  wrote:
>> Http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/6284134.stm
>>
>> *******************************************************************
>> One dead after bus station crash
>>
>> One injured person can be seen in this photo taken after the crash
>> A 66-year-old woman has died in hospital after two buses collided at a
>> bus station in the Black Country.
>> She was one of six people taken to hospital after the accident at the
>> bus station in Walsall town centre.
>>


>The way that is written makes it sound like the driver just turned the
>wrong way down a one way street causing this mayhem.
>
>The facts are the bus was in the bus station when two drivers were
>changing over. The bus then took off from the stand hitting 2 people
>on the crossing in the bus station and just kept accelerating with the
>engine roaring away. The driver trying to control it then hit the road
>vehicles mentioned, the railings protecting the pavement opposite,
>stand C in the bus station and then hitting the front nearside corner
>of a Travel West Midlands trident, pushing that sideways,
>
>Police/VOSA now have the job of finding out why this happened.
>
>The driver is a very long serving driver who has been driving into and
>out of Walsall for many years, so certainly did not just take a wrong
>turning!

Thank you for the more detailed explanation. Having become overly
familiar with Walsall Bus Station over the last 9 months I was really
surprised when it was suggested that someone simply turned the wrong
way. The photographs pointed to that happening but clearly don't tell
the full story.  A dreadful episode all round.
-- 
Paul C

Paul Corfield wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 09:45:43 -0700, "TFHunter@aol.com"
>  wrote:
> 
>>On 10 Jul, 09:21, Ian Jelf  wrote:
>>> Http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/6284134.stm
>>>
>>> *******************************************************************
>>> One dead after bus station crash
>>>
>>> One injured person can be seen in this photo taken after the crash
>>> A 66-year-old woman has died in hospital after two buses collided at a
>>> bus station in the Black Country.
>>> She was one of six people taken to hospital after the accident at the
>>> bus station in Walsall town centre.
>>>
Spooky. I drive an ex West MIdands Travel Leyland Lynx into Boston bus
station. My number is also 51.

"stephen"  wrote in message 
news:f734k6$7dv$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
> Paul Corfield wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 09:45:43 -0700, "TFHunter@aol.com"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>On 10 Jul, 09:21, Ian Jelf  wrote:
>>>> Http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/6284134.stm
>>>>
>>>> *******************************************************************
>>>> One dead after bus station crash
>>>>
>>>> One injured person can be seen in this photo taken after the crash
>>>> A 66-year-old woman has died in hospital after two buses collided at 
>>>> a
>>>> bus station in the Black Country.
>>>> She was one of six people taken to hospital after the accident at the
>>>> bus station in Walsall town centre.
>
> Spooky. I drive an ex West MIdands Travel Leyland Lynx into Boston bus
> station. My number is also 51.

Ah, the old rattletrap Lynx..! I miss them terribly (not..!)

Do the cab windows still sound like they're about to fall out and does the 
heating stick on full blast all the time..?!

Which one was it, can I ask..? TWM fleet no..?


Ivor

Ivor Jones wrote:



> 
> Ah, the old rattletrap Lynx..! I miss them terribly (not..!)
> 
> Do the cab windows still sound like they're about to fall out and does the
> heating stick on full blast all the time..?!

Yes, and the doors stick open too, depending on how strong the wind is and
which way it's blowing as to which one sticks. The ZF gearbox is constantly
in the red zone. I nearly forgot to mention the bit where you have to
switch the ignition off and restart constantly to engage reverse gear. Does
that sound familiar?
> 
> Which one was it, can I ask..? TWM fleet no..?

> I would have to see if there is a number anywhere. We had our two
repainted. THe reg is G138EOG. THE Other one IS G197EOG.

"stephen"  wrote in message 
news:f73ffd$ith$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
> Ivor Jones wrote:
>
>> Ah, the old rattletrap Lynx..! I miss them terribly (not..!)
>>
>> Do the cab windows still sound like they're about to fall out and does 
>> the
>> heating stick on full blast all the time..?!
>
> Yes, and the doors stick open too, depending on how strong the wind is 
> and
> which way it's blowing as to which one sticks. The ZF gearbox is 
> constantly
> in the red zone. I nearly forgot to mention the bit where you have to
> switch the ignition off and restart constantly to engage reverse gear. 
> Does
> that sound familiar?

Very ;-)

>> Which one was it, can I ask..? TWM fleet no..?
>
>> I would have to see if there is a number anywhere. We had our two
> repainted. THe reg is G138EOG. THE Other one IS G197EOG.

Ok, that's easy, the fleet no. was derived from the reg. so they were 
(according to my elderly fleet list, which is still on the network 
un-updated..!) 1138 (ex Lea Hall, where I now languish in a back 
office..!) and 1197 was Yardley Wood.

Ivor

In message , 
"TFHunter@aol.com"  writes
>The way that is written makes it sound like the driver just turned the 
>wrong way down a one way street causing this mayhem.
Reporting of facts can garble the truth more often than most people 
realise!

>The facts are the bus was in the bus station when two drivers were 
>changing over.
I'm not being picky here (honestly!) But does that have any relevance to 
what happened?   Presumably the changeover *had* taken place so only one 
driver was involved.

> The bus then took off from the stand hitting 2 people on the crossing 
>in the bus station and just kept accelerating with the engine roaring 
>away. The driver trying to control it then hit the road vehicles 
>mentioned, the railings protecting the pavement opposite, stand C in 
>the bus station and then hitting the front nearside corner of a Travel 
>West Midlands trident, pushing that sideways,
Stories of buses running away like this are not unknown.   I've heard to 
examples over the years, one at the old WMPTE garage at Dudley which 
unfortunately killed a conductress, which all rather dates it;  and 
another more recently in Birmingham City Centre when a bus of a local 
independent operator embedded itself in the front of Toys R Us, 
fortunately without serious injury.

>Police/VOSA now have the job of finding out why this happened.
The outcome of these never seems to be revealed and I wonder if this 
Walsall incident, too, will fade from general memory and findings of the 
inquiry be revealed?

>The driver is a very long serving driver who has been driving into and 
>out of Walsall for many years, so certainly did not just take a wrong 
>turning!
It did seem quite unlikely.   Wrong turns are not unknown on bus routes 
but not generally in Bus Stations!
-- 
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

In message , Ivor Jones 
<ivor@despammed.invalid> writes
>Ah, the old rattletrap Lynx..! I miss them terribly (not..!)

I found them incredibly uncomfortable from a passenger point of view, 
too. Possibly the worst buses I've ever ridden on.
-- 
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

On 12 Jul, 08:28, Ian Jelf  wrote:
> In message ,
> "TFHun...@aol.com"  writes>The way that is written makes it sound like the driver just turned the
> >wrong way down a one way street causing this mayhem.
>
> Reporting of facts can garble the truth more often than most people
> realise!
>
> >The facts are the bus was in the bus station when two drivers were
> >changing over.
>
> I'm not being picky here (honestly!) But does that have any relevance to
> what happened?   Presumably the changeover *had* taken place so only one
> driver was involved.
>
It may have because if you have just got into a Volvo B6 after driving
a dart for the previous 4 hours, things like handbrake & gear controls
will be in different positions.
The obvious way to stop a runaway is to knock it out of gear, then put
every brake you can find on, but if your hand instinctively goes to
where the gear buttons are on the bus you had been driving it may
caused an extra delay in stopping it

Tony

wrote in message 
news:1184263344.995508.85010@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On 12 Jul, 08:28, Ian Jelf  wrote:
>> In message ,
>> "TFHun...@aol.com"  writes>The way that is written 
>> makes it sound like the driver just turned the
>> >wrong way down a one way street causing this mayhem.
>>
>> Reporting of facts can garble the truth more often than most people
>> realise!
>>
>> >The facts are the bus was in the bus station when two drivers were
>> >changing over.
>>
>> I'm not being picky here (honestly!) But does that have any relevance to
>> what happened?   Presumably the changeover *had* taken place so only one
>> driver was involved.
>>
> It may have because if you have just got into a Volvo B6 after driving
> a dart for the previous 4 hours, things like handbrake & gear controls
> will be in different positions.
> The obvious way to stop a runaway is to knock it out of gear, then put
> every brake you can find on, but if your hand instinctively goes to
> where the gear buttons are on the bus you had been driving it may
> caused an extra delay in stopping it
>
>

A number of Leyland Nationals were notorious for the running away
problem one of these Incidents happened to a driving Instructor at Perry 
Barr
WMPTE garage while I was under going driver training, The one at Dudley I 
also remember well as the conductress that was
killed worked with me at Wolverhampton Midland Red before transfer to the 
WMPTE
All the best to Ivor (apologies a bit off topic)

Dave B

wrote in message 
news:1184263344.995508.85010@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On 12 Jul, 08:28, Ian Jelf  wrote:
>> In message ,
>> "TFHun...@aol.com"  writes>The way that is written 
>> makes it sound like the driver just turned the
>> >wrong way down a one way street causing this mayhem.
>>
>> Reporting of facts can garble the truth more often than most people
>> realise!
>>
>> >The facts are the bus was in the bus station when two drivers were
>> >changing over.
>>
>> I'm not being picky here (honestly!) But does that have any relevance 
>> to
>> what happened?   Presumably the changeover *had* taken place so only 
>> one
>> driver was involved.
>>
> It may have because if you have just got into a Volvo B6 after driving
> a dart for the previous 4 hours, things like handbrake & gear controls
> will be in different positions.
> The obvious way to stop a runaway is to knock it out of gear, then put
> every brake you can find on, but if your hand instinctively goes to
> where the gear buttons are on the bus you had been driving it may
> caused an extra delay in stopping it
>

With respect, Tony, is that a viable excuse..? If you are type-trained on 
a particular vehicle, knowing where the controls are should be automatic. 
They're not *that* differently laid out.

Ivor

On 13 Jul, 02:01, "Ivor Jones" <i...@despammed.invalid> wrote:
>  wrote in message
>
> news:1184263344.995508.85010@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 12 Jul, 08:28, Ian Jelf  wrote:
> >> In message ,
> >> "TFHun...@aol.com"  writes>The way that is written
> >> makes it sound like the driver just turned the
> >> >wrong way down a one way street causing this mayhem.
>
> >> Reporting of facts can garble the truth more often than most people
> >> realise!
>
> >> >The facts are the bus was in the bus station when two drivers were
> >> >changing over.
>
> >> I'm not being picky here (honestly!) But does that have any relevance
> >> to
> >> what happened?   Presumably the changeover *had* taken place so only
> >> one
> >> driver was involved.
>
> > It may have because if you have just got into a Volvo B6 after driving
> > a dart for the previous 4 hours, things like handbrake & gear controls
> > will be in different positions.
> > The obvious way to stop a runaway is to knock it out of gear, then put
> > every brake you can find on, but if your hand instinctively goes to
> > where the gear buttons are on the bus you had been driving it may
> > caused an extra delay in stopping it
>
> With respect, Tony, is that a viable excuse..? If you are type-trained on
> a particular vehicle, knowing where the controls are should be automatic.
> They're not *that* differently laid out.
>
> Ivor- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Come on Ivor
Tell me that if you just got in a bus, took the handbrake off, and it
accelerated on it's own without you pressing the accelorator, and
within a second had run two old ladies over, giving one of them fatal
injuries, you would be calm enough to think, I have just got in a B6,
so the gear buttons ar here?

Try looking at Perry Barr's B10Bs if you think buses are not "that
different" while 18 of them have the gear buttons on the dashboard
just to the right of the steering column, you try and find the buttons
on 1378, which are to the left of the steering column!

Tony

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 08:29:57, Ian Jelf 
wrote:
>>
>>Ah, the old rattletrap Lynx..! I miss them terribly (not..!)
>
>I found them incredibly uncomfortable from a passenger point of view, 
>too. Possibly the worst buses I've ever ridden on.

As one who occasionally suffers a journey on a Cardiff Bus example,
Lynx have the worst powertrain I've ever encountered.  They snatch
gears so badly that it's essential to hang on to something, rather
than simply sit in your seat and enjoy the journey!

Thankfully, they'll only be around for another two months.  :-o

Paul Harley

Ian Jelf wrote:

> In message , Ivor Jones
> <ivor@despammed.invalid> writes
>>Ah, the old rattletrap Lynx..! I miss them terribly (not..!)
> 
> I found them incredibly uncomfortable from a passenger point of view,
> too. Possibly the worst buses I've ever ridden on.

Rattletrap is an apt description.

Paul Harley wrote:


> As one who occasionally suffers a journey on a Cardiff Bus example,
> Lynx have the worst powertrain I've ever encountered.  They snatch
> gears so badly that it's essential to hang on to something, rather
> than simply sit in your seat and enjoy the journey!
> 
> Thankfully, they'll only be around for another two months.  :-o

Mine isn't that bad once you get used to its little idiosyncrasies. Perhaps
you have just been unfortunate enough to have had bad drivers? In my
opinion it's the suspension that really lets the bus down.I drive a rural
route and it's not exactly a pleasant experience driving down rutted farm
tracks believe you me. My old Paxton bodied semi Tiger used to soak up the
bumps.

"stephen"  wrote in message 
news:f7chbt$c5k$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk...
> Ian Jelf wrote:
>
>> In message , Ivor Jones
>> <ivor@despammed.invalid> writes
>>>Ah, the old rattletrap Lynx..! I miss them terribly (not..!)
>>
>> I found them incredibly uncomfortable from a passenger point of view,
>> too. Possibly the worst buses I've ever ridden on.
>
> Rattletrap is an apt description.

I have never understood just *how* anyone could start with the Leyland 
National, !improve" it, and come up with the Lynx..... :o(

"ian henden"  wrote in message 
news:e4vmi.26601$ri2.21623@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...
>
> "stephen"  wrote in message 
> news:f7chbt$c5k$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk...
>> Ian Jelf wrote:
>>
>>> In message , Ivor Jones
>>> <ivor@despammed.invalid> writes
>>>>Ah, the old rattletrap Lynx..! I miss them terribly (not..!)
>>>
>>> I found them incredibly uncomfortable from a passenger point of view,
>>> too. Possibly the worst buses I've ever ridden on.
>>
>> Rattletrap is an apt description.
>
> I have never understood just *how* anyone could start with the Leyland 
> National, !improve" it, and come up with the Lynx..... :o(

Indeed. I've never driven a National in service, but a friend used to have 
a preserved one and I drove that a few times. Lovely bus.

Ivor

On 15 Jul, 22:28, "Ivor Jones" <i...@despammed.invalid> wrote:
> "ian henden"  wrote in message
>
> news:e4vmi.26601$ri2.21623@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "stephen"  wrote in message
> >news:f7chbt$c5k$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk...
> >> Ian Jelf wrote:
>
> >>> In message , Ivor Jones
> >>> <i...@despammed.invalid> writes
> >>>>Ah, the old rattletrap Lynx..! I miss them terribly (not..!)
>
> >>> I found them incredibly uncomfortable from a passenger point of view,
> >>> too. Possibly the worst buses I've ever ridden on.
>
> >> Rattletrap is an apt description.
>
> > I have never understood just *how* anyone could start with the Leyland
> > National, !improve" it, and come up with the Lynx..... :o(
>
> Indeed. I've never driven a National in service, but a friend used to have
> a preserved one and I drove that a few times. Lovely bus.
>
> Ivor- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Presumably it was not one with a G2 automatic gearbox. One of my local
operators had a fair proportion of its fleet comprise P R S and T -reg
Nationals which invariably got stuck on a canal bridge which rose
steeply after coming out of a T junction.

On a number of occasions, a full handbrake stop was required to get
the bus moving again. I never drove a G2 but my experiences with the
"improved" hydracyclic in Nationals, Olympians and Tigers was only
marginally better [and I would ensure "H" was used on the canal
bridge!].

My only experience of driving the Lynx was with one of the first push-
button examples [were they ZF or Voith? ISTR the former] and I thought
it a lot better. But it was brand new at the time!

wrote in message 
news:1184575312.133337.39980@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On 15 Jul, 22:28, "Ivor Jones" <i...@despammed.invalid> wrote:
>> "ian henden"  wrote in message
>>
>> news:e4vmi.26601$ri2.21623@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > "stephen"  wrote in message
>> >news:f7chbt$c5k$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk...
>> >> Ian Jelf wrote:
>>
>> >>> In message , Ivor Jones
>> >>> <i...@despammed.invalid> writes
>> >>>>Ah, the old rattletrap Lynx..! I miss them terribly (not..!)
>>
>> >>> I found them incredibly uncomfortable from a passenger point of 
>> >>> view,
>> >>> too. Possibly the worst buses I've ever ridden on.
>>
>> >> Rattletrap is an apt description.
>>
>> > I have never understood just *how* anyone could start with the 
>> > Leyland
>> > National, !improve" it, and come up with the Lynx..... :o(
>>
>> Indeed. I've never driven a National in service, but a friend used to 
>> have
>> a preserved one and I drove that a few times. Lovely bus.
>>
>> Ivor- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Presumably it was not one with a G2 automatic gearbox. One of my local
> operators had a fair proportion of its fleet comprise P R S and T -reg
> Nationals which invariably got stuck on a canal bridge which rose
> steeply after coming out of a T junction.

No, ex-London Transport 2-door one, M-reg IIRC; semi-auto box with a 
"flick" shift lever on the window ledge to the right of the driver's seat. 
Use 2nd to pull off in normal service, first to make your passengers take 
the back seat whether they want to or not ;-)

Ivor

On 10 Jul, 09:21, Ian Jelf  wrote:
> Http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/6284134.stm
>
> *******************************************************************
> One dead after bus station crash
>
> One injured person can be seen in this photo taken after the crash
> A 66-year-old woman has died in hospital after two buses collided at a
> bus station in the Black Country.
> She was one of six people taken to hospital after the accident at the
> bus station in Walsall town centre.
>
> It is thought a single-decker Arriva bus went the wrong way down a
> one-way street and collided with a double-decker and three other cars.
>
> Police said the woman was a pedestrian. A 59-year-old woman is in a
> serious but stable condition in hospital.
>
>    The bus came out of the terminal and ended up against a double decker
> bus and a van from a local restaurant
>
> Witness, Dominic Leadbetter
>
> A West Midlands Ambulance spokesman said another woman suffered leg
> injuries and three men in their 40s suffered minor injuries.
>
> The Arriva bus driver is among the injured. Another person was treated
> at the scene for shock.
>
> The injuries could have been far worse given the number of vehicles
> involved, the spokesman added.
>
> An investigation has been opened and no-one has been arrested, West
> Midlands Police said.
>
> The bus also collided with three other vehicles
>
> "The bus came out of the terminal and ended up against a double decker
> bus and a van from a local restaurant."
>
> Another eye witness said both buses had a lot of passengers on board.
>
> He said: "I heard some loud bangs and then some screams. I have never
> heard anything like it.
>
> "The bus hit a van and a car and it was only stopped by the number 51
> bus, a Travel West Midlands bus."
>
> He added he saw three people lying on the floor, one of whom seemed to
> have a head injury and another with ripped trousers.
>
> Steve Swingler, of Centro-West Midlands passenger transport authority,
> said the bus station had now reopened and services would be back to
> normal on Tuesday.
> --
> Ian Jelf, MITG
> Birmingham, UK
>
> Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of Englandhttp://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

The way that is written makes it sound like the driver just turned the
wrong way down a one way street causing this mayhem.

The facts are the bus was in the bus station when two drivers were
changing over. The bus then took off from the stand hitting 2 people
on the crossing in the bus station and just kept accelerating with the
engine roaring away. The driver trying to control it then hit the road
vehicles mentioned, the railings protecting the pavement opposite,
stand C in the bus station and then hitting the front nearside corner
of a Travel West Midlands trident, pushing that sideways,

Police/VOSA now have the job of finding out why this happened.

The driver is a very long serving driver who has been driving into and
out of Walsall for many years, so certainly did not just take a wrong
turning!

Tony

On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 09:45:43 -0700, "TFHunter@aol.com"
 wrote:

>On 10 Jul, 09:21, Ian Jelf  wrote:
>> Http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/6284134.stm
>>
>> *******************************************************************
>> One dead after bus station crash
>>
>> One injured person can be seen in this photo taken after the crash
>> A 66-year-old woman has died in hospital after two buses collided at a
>> bus station in the Black Country.
>> She was one of six people taken to hospital after the accident at the
>> bus station in Walsall town centre.
>>


>The way that is written makes it sound like the driver just turned the
>wrong way down a one way street causing this mayhem.
>
>The facts are the bus was in the bus station when two drivers were
>changing over. The bus then took off from the stand hitting 2 people
>on the crossing in the bus station and just kept accelerating with the
>engine roaring away. The driver trying to control it then hit the road
>vehicles mentioned, the railings protecting the pavement opposite,
>stand C in the bus station and then hitting the front nearside corner
>of a Travel West Midlands trident, pushing that sideways,
>
>Police/VOSA now have the job of finding out why this happened.
>
>The driver is a very long serving driver who has been driving into and
>out of Walsall for many years, so certainly did not just take a wrong
>turning!

Thank you for the more detailed explanation. Having become overly
familiar with Walsall Bus Station over the last 9 months I was really
surprised when it was suggested that someone simply turned the wrong
way. The photographs pointed to that happening but clearly don't tell
the full story.  A dreadful episode all round.
-- 
Paul C

Paul Corfield wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 09:45:43 -0700, "TFHunter@aol.com"
>  wrote:
> 
>>On 10 Jul, 09:21, Ian Jelf  wrote:
>>> Http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/6284134.stm
>>>
>>> *******************************************************************
>>> One dead after bus station crash
>>>
>>> One injured person can be seen in this photo taken after the crash
>>> A 66-year-old woman has died in hospital after two buses collided at a
>>> bus station in the Black Country.
>>> She was one of six people taken to hospital after the accident at the
>>> bus station in Walsall town centre.
>>>
Spooky. I drive an ex West MIdands Travel Leyland Lynx into Boston bus
station. My number is also 51.

"stephen"  wrote in message 
news:f734k6$7dv$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
> Paul Corfield wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 09:45:43 -0700, "TFHunter@aol.com"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>On 10 Jul, 09:21, Ian Jelf  wrote:
>>>> Http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/6284134.stm
>>>>
>>>> *******************************************************************
>>>> One dead after bus station crash
>>>>
>>>> One injured person can be seen in this photo taken after the crash
>>>> A 66-year-old woman has died in hospital after two buses collided at 
>>>> a
>>>> bus station in the Black Country.
>>>> She was one of six people taken to hospital after the accident at the
>>>> bus station in Walsall town centre.
>
> Spooky. I drive an ex West MIdands Travel Leyland Lynx into Boston bus
> station. My number is also 51.

Ah, the old rattletrap Lynx..! I miss them terribly (not..!)

Do the cab windows still sound like they're about to fall out and does the 
heating stick on full blast all the time..?!

Which one was it, can I ask..? TWM fleet no..?


Ivor

Ivor Jones wrote:



> 
> Ah, the old rattletrap Lynx..! I miss them terribly (not..!)
> 
> Do the cab windows still sound like they're about to fall out and does the
> heating stick on full blast all the time..?!

Yes, and the doors stick open too, depending on how strong the wind is and
which way it's blowing as to which one sticks. The ZF gearbox is constantly
in the red zone. I nearly forgot to mention the bit where you have to
switch the ignition off and restart constantly to engage reverse gear. Does
that sound familiar?
> 
> Which one was it, can I ask..? TWM fleet no..?

> I would have to see if there is a number anywhere. We had our two
repainted. THe reg is G138EOG. THE Other one IS G197EOG.

"stephen"  wrote in message 
news:f73ffd$ith$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
> Ivor Jones wrote:
>
>> Ah, the old rattletrap Lynx..! I miss them terribly (not..!)
>>
>> Do the cab windows still sound like they're about to fall out and does 
>> the
>> heating stick on full blast all the time..?!
>
> Yes, and the doors stick open too, depending on how strong the wind is 
> and
> which way it's blowing as to which one sticks. The ZF gearbox is 
> constantly
> in the red zone. I nearly forgot to mention the bit where you have to
> switch the ignition off and restart constantly to engage reverse gear. 
> Does
> that sound familiar?

Very ;-)

>> Which one was it, can I ask..? TWM fleet no..?
>
>> I would have to see if there is a number anywhere. We had our two
> repainted. THe reg is G138EOG. THE Other one IS G197EOG.

Ok, that's easy, the fleet no. was derived from the reg. so they were 
(according to my elderly fleet list, which is still on the network 
un-updated..!) 1138 (ex Lea Hall, where I now languish in a back 
office..!) and 1197 was Yardley Wood.

Ivor

In message , 
"TFHunter@aol.com"  writes
>The way that is written makes it sound like the driver just turned the 
>wrong way down a one way street causing this mayhem.
Reporting of facts can garble the truth more often than most people 
realise!

>The facts are the bus was in the bus station when two drivers were 
>changing over.
I'm not being picky here (honestly!) But does that have any relevance to 
what happened?   Presumably the changeover *had* taken place so only one 
driver was involved.

> The bus then took off from the stand hitting 2 people on the crossing 
>in the bus station and just kept accelerating with the engine roaring 
>away. The driver trying to control it then hit the road vehicles 
>mentioned, the railings protecting the pavement opposite, stand C in 
>the bus station and then hitting the front nearside corner of a Travel 
>West Midlands trident, pushing that sideways,
Stories of buses running away like this are not unknown.   I've heard to 
examples over the years, one at the old WMPTE garage at Dudley which 
unfortunately killed a conductress, which all rather dates it;  and 
another more recently in Birmingham City Centre when a bus of a local 
independent operator embedded itself in the front of Toys R Us, 
fortunately without serious injury.

>Police/VOSA now have the job of finding out why this happened.
The outcome of these never seems to be revealed and I wonder if this 
Walsall incident, too, will fade from general memory and findings of the 
inquiry be revealed?

>The driver is a very long serving driver who has been driving into and 
>out of Walsall for many years, so certainly did not just take a wrong 
>turning!
It did seem quite unlikely.   Wrong turns are not unknown on bus routes 
but not generally in Bus Stations!
-- 
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

In message , Ivor Jones 
<ivor@despammed.invalid> writes
>Ah, the old rattletrap Lynx..! I miss them terribly (not..!)

I found them incredibly uncomfortable from a passenger point of view, 
too. Possibly the worst buses I've ever ridden on.
-- 
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

On 12 Jul, 08:28, Ian Jelf  wrote:
> In message ,
> "TFHun...@aol.com"  writes>The way that is written makes it sound like the driver just turned the
> >wrong way down a one way street causing this mayhem.
>
> Reporting of facts can garble the truth more often than most people
> realise!
>
> >The facts are the bus was in the bus station when two drivers were
> >changing over.
>
> I'm not being picky here (honestly!) But does that have any relevance to
> what happened?   Presumably the changeover *had* taken place so only one
> driver was involved.
>
It may have because if you have just got into a Volvo B6 after driving
a dart for the previous 4 hours, things like handbrake & gear controls
will be in different positions.
The obvious way to stop a runaway is to knock it out of gear, then put
every brake you can find on, but if your hand instinctively goes to
where the gear buttons are on the bus you had been driving it may
caused an extra delay in stopping it

Tony

wrote in message 
news:1184263344.995508.85010@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On 12 Jul, 08:28, Ian Jelf  wrote:
>> In message ,
>> "TFHun...@aol.com"  writes>The way that is written 
>> makes it sound like the driver just turned the
>> >wrong way down a one way street causing this mayhem.
>>
>> Reporting of facts can garble the truth more often than most people
>> realise!
>>
>> >The facts are the bus was in the bus station when two drivers were
>> >changing over.
>>
>> I'm not being picky here (honestly!) But does that have any relevance to
>> what happened?   Presumably the changeover *had* taken place so only one
>> driver was involved.
>>
> It may have because if you have just got into a Volvo B6 after driving
> a dart for the previous 4 hours, things like handbrake & gear controls
> will be in different positions.
> The obvious way to stop a runaway is to knock it out of gear, then put
> every brake you can find on, but if your hand instinctively goes to
> where the gear buttons are on the bus you had been driving it may
> caused an extra delay in stopping it
>
>

A number of Leyland Nationals were notorious for the running away
problem one of these Incidents happened to a driving Instructor at Perry 
Barr
WMPTE garage while I was under going driver training, The one at Dudley I 
also remember well as the conductress that was
killed worked with me at Wolverhampton Midland Red before transfer to the 
WMPTE
All the best to Ivor (apologies a bit off topic)

Dave B

wrote in message 
news:1184263344.995508.85010@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On 12 Jul, 08:28, Ian Jelf  wrote:
>> In message ,
>> "TFHun...@aol.com"  writes>The way that is written 
>> makes it sound like the driver just turned the
>> >wrong way down a one way street causing this mayhem.
>>
>> Reporting of facts can garble the truth more often than most people
>> realise!
>>
>> >The facts are the bus was in the bus station when two drivers were
>> >changing over.
>>
>> I'm not being picky here (honestly!) But does that have any relevance 
>> to
>> what happened?   Presumably the changeover *had* taken place so only 
>> one
>> driver was involved.
>>
> It may have because if you have just got into a Volvo B6 after driving
> a dart for the previous 4 hours, things like handbrake & gear controls
> will be in different positions.
> The obvious way to stop a runaway is to knock it out of gear, then put
> every brake you can find on, but if your hand instinctively goes to
> where the gear buttons are on the bus you had been driving it may
> caused an extra delay in stopping it
>

With respect, Tony, is that a viable excuse..? If you are type-trained on 
a particular vehicle, knowing where the controls are should be automatic. 
They're not *that* differently laid out.

Ivor

On 13 Jul, 02:01, "Ivor Jones" <i...@despammed.invalid> wrote:
>  wrote in message
>
> news:1184263344.995508.85010@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 12 Jul, 08:28, Ian Jelf  wrote:
> >> In message ,
> >> "TFHun...@aol.com"  writes>The way that is written
> >> makes it sound like the driver just turned the
> >> >wrong way down a one way street causing this mayhem.
>
> >> Reporting of facts can garble the truth more often than most people
> >> realise!
>
> >> >The facts are the bus was in the bus station when two drivers were
> >> >changing over.
>
> >> I'm not being picky here (honestly!) But does that have any relevance
> >> to
> >> what happened?   Presumably the changeover *had* taken place so only
> >> one
> >> driver was involved.
>
> > It may have because if you have just got into a Volvo B6 after driving
> > a dart for the previous 4 hours, things like handbrake & gear controls
> > will be in different positions.
> > The obvious way to stop a runaway is to knock it out of gear, then put
> > every brake you can find on, but if your hand instinctively goes to
> > where the gear buttons are on the bus you had been driving it may
> > caused an extra delay in stopping it
>
> With respect, Tony, is that a viable excuse..? If you are type-trained on
> a particular vehicle, knowing where the controls are should be automatic.
> They're not *that* differently laid out.
>
> Ivor- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Come on Ivor
Tell me that if you just got in a bus, took the handbrake off, and it
accelerated on it's own without you pressing the accelorator, and
within a second had run two old ladies over, giving one of them fatal
injuries, you would be calm enough to think, I have just got in a B6,
so the gear buttons ar here?

Try looking at Perry Barr's B10Bs if you think buses are not "that
different" while 18 of them have the gear buttons on the dashboard
just to the right of the steering column, you try and find the buttons
on 1378, which are to the left of the steering column!

Tony

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 08:29:57, Ian Jelf 
wrote:
>>
>>Ah, the old rattletrap Lynx..! I miss them terribly (not..!)
>
>I found them incredibly uncomfortable from a passenger point of view, 
>too. Possibly the worst buses I've ever ridden on.

As one who occasionally suffers a journey on a Cardiff Bus example,
Lynx have the worst powertrain I've ever encountered.  They snatch
gears so badly that it's essential to hang on to something, rather
than simply sit in your seat and enjoy the journey!

Thankfully, they'll only be around for another two months.  :-o

Paul Harley

Ian Jelf wrote:

> In message , Ivor Jones
> <ivor@despammed.invalid> writes
>>Ah, the old rattletrap Lynx..! I miss them terribly (not..!)
> 
> I found them incredibly uncomfortable from a passenger point of view,
> too. Possibly the worst buses I've ever ridden on.

Rattletrap is an apt description.

Paul Harley wrote:


> As one who occasionally suffers a journey on a Cardiff Bus example,
> Lynx have the worst powertrain I've ever encountered.  They snatch
> gears so badly that it's essential to hang on to something, rather
> than simply sit in your seat and enjoy the journey!
> 
> Thankfully, they'll only be around for another two months.  :-o

Mine isn't that bad once you get used to its little idiosyncrasies. Perhaps
you have just been unfortunate enough to have had bad drivers? In my
opinion it's the suspension that really lets the bus down.I drive a rural
route and it's not exactly a pleasant experience driving down rutted farm
tracks believe you me. My old Paxton bodied semi Tiger used to soak up the
bumps.

"stephen"  wrote in message 
news:f7chbt$c5k$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk...
> Ian Jelf wrote:
>
>> In message , Ivor Jones
>> <ivor@despammed.invalid> writes
>>>Ah, the old rattletrap Lynx..! I miss them terribly (not..!)
>>
>> I found them incredibly uncomfortable from a passenger point of view,
>> too. Possibly the worst buses I've ever ridden on.
>
> Rattletrap is an apt description.

I have never understood just *how* anyone could start with the Leyland 
National, !improve" it, and come up with the Lynx..... :o(

"ian henden"  wrote in message 
news:e4vmi.26601$ri2.21623@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...
>
> "stephen"  wrote in message 
> news:f7chbt$c5k$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk...
>> Ian Jelf wrote:
>>
>>> In message , Ivor Jones
>>> <ivor@despammed.invalid> writes
>>>>Ah, the old rattletrap Lynx..! I miss them terribly (not..!)
>>>
>>> I found them incredibly uncomfortable from a passenger point of view,
>>> too. Possibly the worst buses I've ever ridden on.
>>
>> Rattletrap is an apt description.
>
> I have never understood just *how* anyone could start with the Leyland 
> National, !improve" it, and come up with the Lynx..... :o(

Indeed. I've never driven a National in service, but a friend used to have 
a preserved one and I drove that a few times. Lovely bus.

Ivor

On 15 Jul, 22:28, "Ivor Jones" <i...@despammed.invalid> wrote:
> "ian henden"  wrote in message
>
> news:e4vmi.26601$ri2.21623@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "stephen"  wrote in message
> >news:f7chbt$c5k$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk...
> >> Ian Jelf wrote:
>
> >>> In message , Ivor Jones
> >>> <i...@despammed.invalid> writes
> >>>>Ah, the old rattletrap Lynx..! I miss them terribly (not..!)
>
> >>> I found them incredibly uncomfortable from a passenger point of view,
> >>> too. Possibly the worst buses I've ever ridden on.
>
> >> Rattletrap is an apt description.
>
> > I have never understood just *how* anyone could start with the Leyland
> > National, !improve" it, and come up with the Lynx..... :o(
>
> Indeed. I've never driven a National in service, but a friend used to have
> a preserved one and I drove that a few times. Lovely bus.
>
> Ivor- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Presumably it was not one with a G2 automatic gearbox. One of my local
operators had a fair proportion of its fleet comprise P R S and T -reg
Nationals which invariably got stuck on a canal bridge which rose
steeply after coming out of a T junction.

On a number of occasions, a full handbrake stop was required to get
the bus moving again. I never drove a G2 but my experiences with the
"improved" hydracyclic in Nationals, Olympians and Tigers was only
marginally better [and I would ensure "H" was used on the canal
bridge!].

My only experience of driving the Lynx was with one of the first push-
button examples [were they ZF or Voith? ISTR the former] and I thought
it a lot better. But it was brand new at the time!

wrote in message 
news:1184575312.133337.39980@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On 15 Jul, 22:28, "Ivor Jones" <i...@despammed.invalid> wrote:
>> "ian henden"  wrote in message
>>
>> news:e4vmi.26601$ri2.21623@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > "stephen"  wrote in message
>> >news:f7chbt$c5k$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk...
>> >> Ian Jelf wrote:
>>
>> >>> In message , Ivor Jones
>> >>> <i...@despammed.invalid> writes
>> >>>>Ah, the old rattletrap Lynx..! I miss them terribly (not..!)
>>
>> >>> I found them incredibly uncomfortable from a passenger point of 
>> >>> view,
>> >>> too. Possibly the worst buses I've ever ridden on.
>>
>> >> Rattletrap is an apt description.
>>
>> > I have never understood just *how* anyone could start with the 
>> > Leyland
>> > National, !improve" it, and come up with the Lynx..... :o(
>>
>> Indeed. I've never driven a National in service, but a friend used to 
>> have
>> a preserved one and I drove that a few times. Lovely bus.
>>
>> Ivor- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Presumably it was not one with a G2 automatic gearbox. One of my local
> operators had a fair proportion of its fleet comprise P R S and T -reg
> Nationals which invariably got stuck on a canal bridge which rose
> steeply after coming out of a T junction.

No, ex-London Transport 2-door one, M-reg IIRC; semi-auto box with a 
"flick" shift lever on the window ledge to the right of the driver's seat. 
Use 2nd to pull off in normal service, first to make your passengers take 
the back seat whether they want to or not ;-)

Ivor