Hi,
I am a practicing Orthodox Jew and wish to travel form LHR to LAX on
Friday 8 February 2008.

There is a BA flight round about 10am & a Virgin flight at 11.30am.
The flying time is just over 11 hours.

If I catch either of these flights I will arrive in LAX well before
the Sabbath commences in LAX. However, my Rabbi has said that I should
check on the route the flight takes as it may go far enough North to
actually encounter a time of darkness thus meaning that the Sabbath
has already "arrived".

Could you please advise if either of these flights do?

Unusual question but I think quite interesting....

Thanks in advance for all the help!

"ariopp"  wrote in message 
news:5958061d-7d43-45a3-856b-7679b8c29f50@v29g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> Hi,
> I am a practicing Orthodox Jew and wish to travel form LHR to LAX on
> Friday 8 February 2008.
>
> There is a BA flight round about 10am & a Virgin flight at 11.30am.
> The flying time is just over 11 hours.
>
> If I catch either of these flights I will arrive in LAX well before
> the Sabbath commences in LAX. However, my Rabbi has said that I should
> check on the route the flight takes as it may go far enough North to
> actually encounter a time of darkness thus meaning that the Sabbath
> has already "arrived".
>
> Could you please advise if either of these flights do?


You can depart LHR on Friday anytime between 06.00 and 15.30 and still 
arrive in LAX before Saturday.

WTF has darkness got to do with it?  The Sabbath begins at 00.01am on 
Saturday.

Gerry

In message , at 20:49:07 on Fri, 18 
Jan 2008, Gerald Oliver Swift  remarked:
>WTF has darkness got to do with it?  The Sabbath begins at 00.01am on
>Saturday.

No, apparently it does begin at sunset on Friday.
-- 
Roland Perry

Gerald Oliver Swift wrote:

> "ariopp"  wrote in message 
> news:5958061d-7d43-45a3-856b-7679b8c29f50@v29g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> 
>>Hi,
>>I am a practicing Orthodox Jew and wish to travel form LHR to LAX on
>>Friday 8 February 2008.
>>
>>There is a BA flight round about 10am & a Virgin flight at 11.30am.
>>The flying time is just over 11 hours.
>>
>>[...] my Rabbi has said that I should
>>check on the route the flight takes as it may go far enough North to
>>actually encounter a time of darkness thus meaning that the Sabbath
>>has already "arrived".
>>
>>Could you please advise if either of these flights do?
> 
> 
> You can depart LHR on Friday anytime between 06.00 and 15.30 and still 
> arrive in LAX before Saturday.

That is not what the OP asked.  Did you actually bother to read the
post?

> WTF has darkness got to do with it?  The Sabbath begins at 00.01am on 
> Saturday.

Maybe if you'd bothered to read the OP's post, you would have figured
that, in fact, this is not when the Jewish Sabbath starts.
-- 
dgs

"ariopp"  wrote in message 
news:5958061d-7d43-45a3-856b-7679b8c29f50@v29g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> Hi,
> I am a practicing Orthodox Jew and wish to travel form LHR to LAX on
> Friday 8 February 2008.
>
> There is a BA flight round about 10am & a Virgin flight at 11.30am.
> The flying time is just over 11 hours.
>
> If I catch either of these flights I will arrive in LAX well before
> the Sabbath commences in LAX. However, my Rabbi has said that I should
> check on the route the flight takes as it may go far enough North to
> actually encounter a time of darkness thus meaning that the Sabbath
> has already "arrived".
>
> Could you please advise if either of these flights do?
>

Not in June. In the northern latitudes the sun doesnt set
until after 10 PM local time and youll be there around noon
local time

Keith

ariopp wrote:

> Hi,
> I am a practicing Orthodox Jew and wish to travel form LHR to LAX on
> Friday 8 February 2008.

If you're really concerned about international travel on a Friday,
switch your flight to Thursday, or wait until Sunday.  Problem solved.

> There is a BA flight round about 10am & a Virgin flight at 11.30am.
> The flying time is just over 11 hours.
> 
> If I catch either of these flights I will arrive in LAX well before
> the Sabbath commences in LAX. However, my Rabbi has said that I should
> check on the route the flight takes as it may go far enough North to
> actually encounter a time of darkness thus meaning that the Sabbath
> has already "arrived".
> 
> Could you please advise if either of these flights do?

I took a BA flight from LHR to SEA on December 30th.  It departed in
the early afternoon, and it still didn't encounter much in the way of
darkness.  Your flight doesn't go quite that far north, and a little
on-line research would have shown that:
http://gc.kls2.com/ is a Great Circle Mapper.  You will note that the
LHR-LAX route goes no farther north than southern tip of Greenland.  If
anything, the 11:30am flight is most likely to be in continuous day-
light, but I doubt if there's that much difference.
-- 
dgs

"Keith Willshaw"  wrote in message 
news:fmr4al$elr$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
>
> "ariopp"  wrote in message 
> news:5958061d-7d43-45a3-856b-7679b8c29f50@v29g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>> Hi,
>> I am a practicing Orthodox Jew and wish to travel form LHR to LAX on
>> Friday 8 February 2008.
>>
>> There is a BA flight round about 10am & a Virgin flight at 11.30am.
>> The flying time is just over 11 hours.
>>
>> If I catch either of these flights I will arrive in LAX well before
>> the Sabbath commences in LAX. However, my Rabbi has said that I should
>> check on the route the flight takes as it may go far enough North to
>> actually encounter a time of darkness thus meaning that the Sabbath
>> has already "arrived".
>>
>> Could you please advise if either of these flights do?
>>
>
> Not in June. In the northern latitudes the sun doesnt set
> until after 10 PM local time and youll be there around noon
> local time
>
> Keith
>

HE'S NOT LEAVING IN JUNE, he is leaving February 8th.

ariopp wrote:

> There is a BA flight round about 10am & a Virgin flight at 11.30am.
> The flying time is just over 11 hours.

Such flights might pass just south of Iqaluit (YFB). At this time of
year, sunset is at 14:35 local time, 19:35 GMT. (but some times, those
flight pass much to the south, depending on winds).

LHR-LAX is 4741nm. At 11 hours, this averages 431 knots (nm/h)

LHR-YFB is 2195nm. At 431 knots, it would take just over 5 hours to get
there.

LHR-YQR (Regina) is 3591 nm. 8 hours 20 minutes to get there. Sunset at
Regina is at 17:25 local, 23:25 GMT.

If you depart at 11:30, you would be flying over near YFB at about 16:30
GMT. Well before sunset. You'll be flying over Regina at about 20:00
GMT, still quite ahead of sunset.

"ariopp"  wrote in message 
news:5958061d-7d43-45a3-856b-7679b8c29f50@v29g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> Hi,
> I am a practicing Orthodox Jew and wish to travel form LHR to LAX on
> Friday 8 February 2008.
>
> There is a BA flight round about 10am & a Virgin flight at 11.30am.
> The flying time is just over 11 hours.
>
> If I catch either of these flights I will arrive in LAX well before
> the Sabbath commences in LAX. However, my Rabbi has said that I should
> check on the route the flight takes as it may go far enough North to
> actually encounter a time of darkness thus meaning that the Sabbath
> has already "arrived".
>
> Could you please advise if either of these flights do?
>
> Unusual question but I think quite interesting....
>
> Thanks in advance for all the help!

Leaving at 10:05 AM from LHR, the northern most point for your trip would be 
near Greenland's southern tip after about 1600 nautical miles (nm) from LHR 
with an additional approx. 3000 nm to go.  You would reach that point 
approximately 4 hours after taking off from LHR with a 3 hour time zone 
difference for an approximate local time of 11 to 11:30 AM.  There would 
still be plenty of daylight at that latitude of 60 degrees north.  The Artic 
circle is 66 degrees north which is north of this location and it would not 
be a period of 24 hours of darkness at that latitude at this time of year. 
The winter solstice having passed, the days will be getting longer at that 
point in time.

Information for transit over Greenland

The following information is provided for Greenland (longitude W40.0, 
latitude N60.0):
        Friday
        8 February 2008       Universal Time - 3h

                         SUN
        Begin civil twilight      06:52
        Sunrise                      07:38
        Sun transit                 11:54
        Sunset                       16:11
        End civil twilight        16:57

    Information for arrival in California on

        Friday
        8 February 2008       Pacific Standard Time

                         SUN
        Begin civil twilight       6:19 a.m.
        Sunrise                       6:45 a.m.
        Sun transit                  12:08 p.m.
        Sunset                        5:30 p.m.
        End civil twilight          5:56 p.m.


The issue would appear to be that if the plane was delayed for many hours 
you could be travelling at night.

Hope this helps ease your travel and religious worrys.

should be daylight all the way, westbound. The problem would be on the 
return, due to the time change.

Jeff

"ariopp"  wrote in message 
news:5958061d-7d43-45a3-856b-7679b8c29f50@v29g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> Hi,
> I am a practicing Orthodox Jew and wish to travel form LHR to LAX on
> Friday 8 February 2008.
>
> There is a BA flight round about 10am & a Virgin flight at 11.30am.
> The flying time is just over 11 hours.
>
> If I catch either of these flights I will arrive in LAX well before
> the Sabbath commences in LAX. However, my Rabbi has said that I should
> check on the route the flight takes as it may go far enough North to
> actually encounter a time of darkness thus meaning that the Sabbath
> has already "arrived".
>
> Could you please advise if either of these flights do?
>
> Unusual question but I think quite interesting....
>
> Thanks in advance for all the help!

"Gerald Oliver Swift"  wrote in message 
news:5vchm6F1lgqkoU1@mid.individual.net...
>

> WTF has darkness got to do with it?  The Sabbath begins at 00.01am on 
> Saturday.

Wrong.

-- 
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

ariopp writes:

> If I catch either of these flights I will arrive in LAX well before
> the Sabbath commences in LAX. However, my Rabbi has said that I should
> check on the route the flight takes as it may go far enough North to
> actually encounter a time of darkness thus meaning that the Sabbath
> has already "arrived".

How can you be sure that your rabbi's interpretation is correct?

"Roland Perry"  wrote in message 
news:11TMq4KlNRkHFADn@perry.co.uk...
> In message , at 20:49:07 on Fri, 18 
> Jan 2008, Gerald Oliver Swift  remarked:
>>WTF has darkness got to do with it?  The Sabbath begins at 00.01am on
>>Saturday.
>
> No, apparently it does begin at sunset on Friday.

Yes, you are quite right. I stand corrected.
Apparently it is observed from sundown on Friday until the appearance of 
three stars in the sky on Saturday night.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat
I didn't realise this, not being "of the faith", and I apologise most humbly 
if my ignorance offended anyone.

So, returning to the original question:-

I am a practicing Orthodox Jew and wish to travel form LHR to LAX on
Friday 8 February 2008.There is a BA flight round about 10am & a Virgin 
flight at 11.30am.
The flying time is just over 11 hours.
If I catch either of these flights I will arrive in LAX well before
the Sabbath commences in LAX. However, my Rabbi has said that I should
check on the route the flight takes as it may go far enough North to
actually encounter a time of darkness thus meaning that the Sabbath
has already "arrived".

Both flights in question are direct non-stop.
http://www.expedia.co.uk/default

The BA flight departs LHR at 10.05am and arrives LAX at 13.10pm local time 
with a flight duration of 11hrs 5mins.
The Virgin flight departs LHR at 11.30am and arrives LAX at 14.45pm local 
time with a flight duration of 11hrs 15mins.
Distance flown is 5,456 miles.
http://gc.kls2.com/

As subsequent posters have indicated, quite correctly, the northernmost 
point of the Great Circle route crosses line of latitude 64 degrees North
near to the town of Nuuk (capital of Greenland). Distance from LHR to Nuuk s 
2,014 miles. Time difference = GMT -3hours.

We can calculate therefore that the flight time to Nuuk from LHR is approx. 
4 hrs 10mins.
The BA flight will pass over Nuuk at approx. 14.15pm GMT = 11.15am local 
time
The Virgin flight will pass over Nuuk at approx. 15.40pm GMT = 12.40pm local 
time.

Sunset in Nuuk on February 8th is at 16.36pm local time
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=703&month=2&year=2008&obj=sun&afl=-11&day=1

Sunset in Los Angeles on February 8th is at 17.30pm local time.

From departure in London to arrival in Los Angeles, both flights will be in 
total daylight
and the Sabbath will not have "arrived" - barring a flight delay in excess 
of 3 hours.

I trust this answers the OP's question.

Gerry

In message , at 07:53:45 on 
Sat, 19 Jan 2008, Mxsmanic  remarked:
>> If I catch either of these flights I will arrive in LAX well before
>> the Sabbath commences in LAX. However, my Rabbi has said that I should
>> check on the route the flight takes as it may go far enough North to
>> actually encounter a time of darkness thus meaning that the Sabbath
>> has already "arrived".
>
>How can you be sure that your rabbi's interpretation is correct?

Isn't that what faith is all about?

(And it's consistent with what the BBC says:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/judaism/holydays/sabbath.shtml )
-- 
Roland Perry

ariopp writes:

> Hi,
> I am a practicing Orthodox Jew and wish to travel form LHR to LAX on
> Friday 8 February 2008.
> 
> There is a BA flight round about 10am & a Virgin flight at 11.30am.
> The flying time is just over 11 hours.
> 
> If I catch either of these flights I will arrive in LAX well before
> the Sabbath commences in LAX. However, my Rabbi has said that I should
> check on the route the flight takes as it may go far enough North to
> actually encounter a time of darkness thus meaning that the Sabbath
> has already "arrived".
> 
> Could you please advise if either of these flights do?
> 
> Unusual question but I think quite interesting....
> 
> Thanks in advance for all the help!

I just simulated this time period with GeoClock.  Flights from LHR to LAX go
no further north than the southern tip of Greenland, and from what I can see
by speeding up the motion of the Earth in GeoClock, the daylight period
follows the flight, and the flight never goes far enough north to enter
darkness (on February 8, at solar noon the sun is shining well into the middle
part of Greenland).  Thus, it looks like the flight may be in sunlight from
start to finish.

In message , at 07:01:27 on Sat, 19 
Jan 2008, Gerald Oliver Swift  remarked:
>
>From departure in London to arrival in Los Angeles, both flights will 
>be in total daylight and the Sabbath will not have "arrived" - barring 
>a flight delay in excess of 3 hours.

I would presume that the OP is also not supposed to take a ride in a 
car/taxi/bus etc on the Sabbath. If you add in the time taken for the 
immigration/customs process, and realise that it's an awful long walk 
from LAX airport to anywhere in the city, then much of a delay on the 
later flight could start getting tricky.

I have also met orthodox Jews who aren't allowed to handle money on the 
Sabbath, so unless the OP is staying with friends he will have needed to 
check into a hotel by sunset as well.
-- 
Roland Perry

ariopp wrote:

> Hi,
> I am a practicing Orthodox Jew and wish to travel form LHR to LAX on
> Friday 8 February 2008.
> 
> There is a BA flight round about 10am & a Virgin flight at 11.30am.
> The flying time is just over 11 hours.
> 
> If I catch either of these flights I will arrive in LAX well before
> the Sabbath commences in LAX. However, my Rabbi has said that I should
> check on the route the flight takes as it may go far enough North to
> actually encounter a time of darkness thus meaning that the Sabbath
> has already "arrived".
> 
> Could you please advise if either of these flights do?
> 
> Unusual question but I think quite interesting....
> 
> Thanks in advance for all the help!

When is your return date?
How do you plan to avoid darkness on the return.
What about flight delays.

In message , at 23:45:47 
on Fri, 18 Jan 2008, Mr. Travel <mtravel@a.a> remarked:
>How do you plan to avoid darkness on the return.

Doesn't matter if it's Saturday thru Thursday.

There's also the intriguing possibility of flying home westwards, and 
either continuing to chase the sun, or in fact missing the 24hrs in 
question altogether by crossing the International Date Line (if he 
crosses at sunset Friday, won't it suddenly switch to being sunset 
Saturday?)

>What about flight delays.

As I remarked earlier, he may end up walking from the airport...
-- 
Roland Perry

"LVTravel"  wrote in message 
news:13p27f7hedsjk5b@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Keith Willshaw"  wrote in message 
> news:fmr4al$elr$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
>>
>> "ariopp"  wrote in message 
>> news:5958061d-7d43-45a3-856b-7679b8c29f50@v29g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>> Hi,
>>> I am a practicing Orthodox Jew and wish to travel form LHR to LAX on
>>> Friday 8 February 2008.
>>>
>>> There is a BA flight round about 10am & a Virgin flight at 11.30am.
>>> The flying time is just over 11 hours.
>>>
>>> If I catch either of these flights I will arrive in LAX well before
>>> the Sabbath commences in LAX. However, my Rabbi has said that I should
>>> check on the route the flight takes as it may go far enough North to
>>> actually encounter a time of darkness thus meaning that the Sabbath
>>> has already "arrived".
>>>
>>> Could you please advise if either of these flights do?
>>>
>>
>> Not in June. In the northern latitudes the sun doesnt set
>> until after 10 PM local time and youll be there around noon
>> local time
>>
>> Keith
>>
>
> HE'S NOT LEAVING IN JUNE, he is leaving February 8th.
>

OK I misread , he'll still be in northern latitudes and noon local
time. I have flown that route MANY times in summer and winter
 and have never seen sunset.

Keith

PS No need to shout

In article   dgs1300@gmail.com "dgs" writes:

> ariopp wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> > I am a practicing Orthodox Jew and wish to travel form LHR to LAX on
> > Friday 8 February 2008.
> 
> If you're really concerned about international travel on a Friday,
> switch your flight to Thursday, or wait until Sunday.  Problem solved.

Indeed.  The OP should bear in mind that it's winter here in the 
UK, and the adverse weather often disrupts transport -- air 
travel in particular.  24 hour delays are not unknown, so even 
travelling on a Thursday is not without risk of flying into the 
Sabbath.  Sunday would be your safest bet...

-- 
   "We have not inherited the earth from our ancestors,
    we have borrowed it from our descendants."

Roland Perry writes:

> I would presume that the OP is also not supposed to take a ride in a 
> car/taxi/bus etc on the Sabbath. If you add in the time taken for the 
> immigration/customs process, and realise that it's an awful long walk 
> from LAX airport to anywhere in the city, then much of a delay on the 
> later flight could start getting tricky.
> 
> I have also met orthodox Jews who aren't allowed to handle money on the 
> Sabbath, so unless the OP is staying with friends he will have needed to 
> check into a hotel by sunset as well.

Why not just change the date of the flight, if observing the Sabbath is so
important?

Roland Perry writes:

> Isn't that what faith is all about?

That depends on which faith you have in mind.  Faith in a religion doesn't
necessarily imply faith in other practitioners of the religion.  I've always
wondered what will happen if the rabbis are wrong, and the commandments are
not being correctly followed in consequence.  Given the extremely convoluted
nature of the reasoning sometimes applied by rabbis, I'd be very surprised if
they got it all right in even a minority of instances.

"Mr. Travel" <mtravel@a.a> wrote in message 
news:peudnUR_dJc6NwzanZ2dnUVZ_uninZ2d@comcast.com...
> ariopp wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> I am a practicing Orthodox Jew and wish to travel form LHR to LAX on
>> Friday 8 February 2008.
>>
>> There is a BA flight round about 10am & a Virgin flight at 11.30am.
>> The flying time is just over 11 hours.
>>
>> If I catch either of these flights I will arrive in LAX well before
>> the Sabbath commences in LAX. However, my Rabbi has said that I should
>> check on the route the flight takes as it may go far enough North to
>> actually encounter a time of darkness thus meaning that the Sabbath
>> has already "arrived".
>>
>> Could you please advise if either of these flights do?
>>
>> Unusual question but I think quite interesting....
>>
>> Thanks in advance for all the help!
>
> When is your return date?
> How do you plan to avoid darkness on the return.
> What about flight delays.

The return flight would only be an issue if it departed on Friday.   Any 
other day of the week is not an issue.

Most of my flying from Heathrow to the west coast has been on early flights 
(largely because I lived near the airport and preferred to get my travelling 
done early).   There was on occasion when we caught the 1530 BA flight and 
by the time we had completed the flight and got to a LAX airport hotel it 
was dark.   Other than that I cannot remember an occasion when it got dark 
en route or soon after arrival.

I would caution about some of the calculations mentioned here based on great 
circle routes.   Whilst most of my flights have followed a similar routing 
there was one occasion when the flight went overhead Vancouver (Canada) and 
then all the way down the west coast instead of crossing the border 
somewhere near Winnipeg and that will have had some effect on the routing 
over Greenland etc.    However, even on that occasion I do not remember 
darkness (or sunset)

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 15:25:11 -0000, "Graham Harrison"
 wrote:


> Whilst most of my flights have followed a similar routing 
>there was one occasion when the flight went overhead Vancouver (Canada) and 
>then all the way down the west coast instead of crossing the border 
>somewhere near Winnipeg

BA's 269 LHR to LAX takes that route about once every three months
regular as clockwork  I would like to know why .

In message , at 16:16:35 on 
Sat, 19 Jan 2008, Mxsmanic  remarked:
>> Isn't that what faith is all about?
>
>That depends on which faith you have in mind.  Faith in a religion doesn't
>necessarily imply faith in other practitioners of the religion.  I've always
>wondered what will happen if the rabbis are wrong, and the commandments are
>not being correctly followed in consequence.  Given the extremely convoluted
>nature of the reasoning sometimes applied by rabbis, I'd be very surprised if
>they got it all right in even a minority of instances.

This is getting very off-topic, but surely no-one can be criticised for 
following the instructions of their faith's official practitioners, in 
fact isn't having faith in that situation what it's supposed to be all 
about?
-- 
Roland Perry

mymail@hotmail.co.uk writes:

> BA's 269 LHR to LAX takes that route about once every three months
> regular as clockwork  I would like to know why .

Jet streams, perhaps?

Roland Perry writes:

> This is getting very off-topic, but surely no-one can be criticised for 
> following the instructions of their faith's official practitioners, in 
> fact isn't having faith in that situation what it's supposed to be all 
> about?

Judaism doesn't have a formal clergy.

Roland Perry wrote:
> In message , at 23:45:47 
> on Fri, 18 Jan 2008, Mr. Travel <mtravel@a.a> remarked:
> 
>> How do you plan to avoid darkness on the return.

Hence my question.
If it were a concern on the outbound, the oubound should have booked to 
avoid the possibility. Due to early winter sunset times, and the chance 
for delays, getting to your destination hotel before sunset, and 
avoiding areas during the flight that were past sunset, was not assured.

Keith Willshaw wrote:

> "LVTravel"  wrote in message 
> news:13p27f7hedsjk5b@corp.supernews.com...
> 
>>"Keith Willshaw"  wrote in message 
>>news:fmr4al$elr$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
>>
>>>"ariopp"  wrote in message 
>>>news:5958061d-7d43-45a3-856b-7679b8c29f50@v29g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>>Hi,
>>>>I am a practicing Orthodox Jew and wish to travel form LHR to LAX on
>>>>Friday 8 February 2008.
>>>>
>>>>There is a BA flight round about 10am & a Virgin flight at 11.30am.
>>>>The flying time is just over 11 hours.
>>>>
>>>>If I catch either of these flights I will arrive in LAX well before
>>>>the Sabbath commences in LAX. However, my Rabbi has said that I should
>>>>check on the route the flight takes as it may go far enough North to
>>>>actually encounter a time of darkness thus meaning that the Sabbath
>>>>has already "arrived".
>>>>
>>>>Could you please advise if either of these flights do?
>>>>
>>>
>>>Not in June. In the northern latitudes the sun doesnt set
>>>until after 10 PM local time and youll be there around noon
>>>local time
>>>
>>>Keith
>>>
>>
>>HE'S NOT LEAVING IN JUNE, he is leaving February 8th.
>>
> 
> 
> OK I misread , he'll still be in northern latitudes and noon local
> time. I have flown that route MANY times in summer and winter
>  and have never seen sunset.

What if the flight is delayed?

On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 20:49:07 -0000, "Gerald Oliver Swift"
 wrote:

>
>"ariopp"  wrote in message 
>news:5958061d-7d43-45a3-856b-7679b8c29f50@v29g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>> Hi,
>> I am a practicing Orthodox Jew and wish to travel form LHR to LAX on
>> Friday 8 February 2008.
>>
>> There is a BA flight round about 10am & a Virgin flight at 11.30am.
>> The flying time is just over 11 hours.
>>
>> If I catch either of these flights I will arrive in LAX well before
>> the Sabbath commences in LAX. However, my Rabbi has said that I should
>> check on the route the flight takes as it may go far enough North to
>> actually encounter a time of darkness thus meaning that the Sabbath
>> has already "arrived".
>>
>> Could you please advise if either of these flights do?
>
>
>You can depart LHR on Friday anytime between 06.00 and 15.30 and still 
>arrive in LAX before Saturday.
>
>WTF has darkness got to do with it?  The Sabbath begins at 00.01am on 
>Saturday.
>
>Gerry 
>

Must be a Christian; showing the usual insensitivity to others' ideas
of how their version "god" runs the universe:

To an orthodox jew, Sabbath begins at *sunset*.  Probably to observant
Moslems also as I understand things.

Used to be for Christians too since the "god" of the bible reckons
time by sunrise and sunset.

Not everyone's invisible friend uses the same clock as Gerry's.

Jim P.

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 16:24:46 -0800, Mr Travel <mrtravel@a.a>
wrote:

>Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message , at 23:45:47 
>> on Fri, 18 Jan 2008, Mr. Travel <mtravel@a.a> remarked:
>> 
>>> How do you plan to avoid darkness on the return.
>
>Hence my question.
>If it were a concern on the outbound, the oubound should have booked to 
>avoid the possibility. Due to early winter sunset times, and the chance 
>for delays, getting to your destination hotel before sunset, and 
>avoiding areas during the flight that were past sunset, was not assured.

As his rabbi pointed out, that's not the only problem. Flights
from LAX and SFO to London take a polar great circle route that
passes well north, usually over northern Greenland. Even in the
summer twilight is reached in the far north. In the winter it's
probably a certainty that any such flight, day or night, will at
some point enter night in the far north, triggering the start of
the Sabbath.

-- 
   ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
   *       Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow         *
   * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Hatunen writes:

> As his rabbi pointed out, that's not the only problem. Flights
> from LAX and SFO to London take a polar great circle route that
> passes well north, usually over northern Greenland. Even in the
> summer twilight is reached in the far north. In the winter it's
> probably a certainty that any such flight, day or night, will at
> some point enter night in the far north, triggering the start of
> the Sabbath.

As an omniscient being, God would have foreseen these complications.  This
being so, if he truly thought it necessary to observe the Sabbath with such
robotic rigor, he would have provided specific instructions to cover all
situations, past, present, and future.  The fact that he apparently did not do
so implies that it doesn't matter to him.

"Mxsmanic"  wrote in message 
news:3sd5p31erduqftuquhntkmquv5mg1sjhv8@4ax.com...
> Hatunen writes:
>
>> As his rabbi pointed out, that's not the only problem. Flights
>> from LAX and SFO to London take a polar great circle route that
>> passes well north, usually over northern Greenland. Even in the
>> summer twilight is reached in the far north. In the winter it's
>> probably a certainty that any such flight, day or night, will at
>> some point enter night in the far north, triggering the start of
>> the Sabbath.
>
> As an omniscient being, God would have foreseen these complications.  This
> being so, if he truly thought it necessary to observe the Sabbath with 
> such
> robotic rigor, he would have provided specific instructions to cover all
> situations, past, present, and future.  The fact that he apparently did 
> not do
> so implies that it doesn't matter to him.

Unless he set it as a test for the faithful...

-- 
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

"Mxsmanic"  wrote in message 
news:ouk4p3dlo1uef9raa2q2uim83phtv9thfu@4ax.com...
> mymail@hotmail.co.uk writes:
>
>> BA's 269 LHR to LAX takes that route about once every three months
>> regular as clockwork  I would like to know why .
>
> Jet streams, perhaps?

Not sure if this link will work, otherwise try a google search for "North 
Atlantic Track Ssytem" (including the quotes). 
http://books.google.com/books?id=KY-MBUeQoZEC&pg=PT373&lpg=PT373&dq=%22north+atlantic+track+system%22&source=web&ots=cMUl-h-S0U&sig=ZMrv7xjzEqNdOv-RLH82K_ufpEA#PPT373,M1

Mxsmanic wrote:

> Hatunen writes:
> 
> 
>>As his rabbi pointed out, that's not the only problem. Flights
>>from LAX and SFO to London take a polar great circle route that
>>passes well north, usually over northern Greenland. Even in the
>>summer twilight is reached in the far north. In the winter it's
>>probably a certainty that any such flight, day or night, will at
>>some point enter night in the far north, triggering the start of
>>the Sabbath.
> 
> 
> As an omniscient being, God would have foreseen these complications.  This
> being so, if he truly thought it necessary to observe the Sabbath with such
> robotic rigor, he would have provided specific instructions to cover all
> situations, past, present, and future.  The fact that he apparently did not do
> so implies that it doesn't matter to him.

I suspect, in his mind, it is Ok to tell Muslims that fully covering 
their women is out of date, but it's not Ok to think that a journey over 
multiple timezones and using polar routes, also makes some tenets of 
Judaism a bit outdated.

On Jan 19, 7:01 am, "Gerald Oliver Swift"  wrote:
> "Roland Perry"  wrote in message
>
> news:11TMq4KlNRkHFADn@perry.co.uk...
>
> > In message , at 20:49:07 on Fri, 18
> > Jan 2008, Gerald Oliver Swift  remarked:
> >>WTF has darkness got to do with it?  The Sabbath begins at 00.01am on
> >>Saturday.
>
> > No, apparently it does begin at sunset on Friday.
>
> Yes, you are quite right. I stand corrected.
> Apparently it is observed from sundown on Friday until the appearance of
> three stars in the sky on Saturday night.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat
<snip>

What happens if it's cloudy on Saturday night?

Cats wrote:

> What happens if it's cloudy on Saturday night?

What happens if there is a solar eclipse ?

And what happens if you do an emergency landing in the arctic in winter
? Do yo have to wait 6 months for the sun to rise before you can fly again ?

Cats wrote:
> On Jan 19, 7:01 am, "Gerald Oliver Swift"  wrote:
> 
>>"Roland Perry"  wrote in message
>>
>>news:11TMq4KlNRkHFADn@perry.co.uk...
>>
>>
>>>In message , at 20:49:07 on Fri, 18
>>>Jan 2008, Gerald Oliver Swift  remarked:
>>>
>>>>WTF has darkness got to do with it?  The Sabbath begins at 00.01am on
>>>>Saturday.
>>
>>>No, apparently it does begin at sunset on Friday.
>>
>>Yes, you are quite right. I stand corrected.
>>Apparently it is observed from sundown on Friday until the appearance of
>>three stars in the sky on Saturday night.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat
> 
> <snip>
> 
> What happens if it's cloudy on Saturday night?

The stars are still out there, whether it is cloudy or not.

John Doe wrote:

> Cats wrote:
> 
> 
>>What happens if it's cloudy on Saturday night?
> 
> 
> What happens if there is a solar eclipse ?

A solar eclipse is not sunset.

In message <47932081$0$5857$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, at 05:16:49 on 
Sun, 20 Jan 2008, John Doe  remarked:
>And what happens if you do an emergency landing in the arctic in winter
>? Do yo have to wait 6 months for the sun to rise before you can fly again ?

No, because it's only *Friday* nights that matter.
-- 
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:

> No, because it's only *Friday* nights that matter.

But technically, in the winter arctic, if the sun doesn't rise on
friday, there can be no sunset on friday... So sabbath wouldn't happen
if it is based on actual sunset vs darkness.

If it based on darkness, it would mean that the person would have all of
friday in sabbath. And it would be problematic on saturday since stars
would be visible all day. (again, no sunset on saturday).

Obviously, Abraham hadn't thought of northern arctic people when he
accepted the commandments from God :-)

nobody@spamcop.net wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 20:49:07 -0000, "Gerald Oliver Swift"
>  wrote:
> 
>> "ariopp"  wrote in message 
>> news:5958061d-7d43-45a3-856b-7679b8c29f50@v29g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>> Hi,
>>> I am a practicing Orthodox Jew and wish to travel form LHR to LAX on
>>> Friday 8 February 2008.
>>>
>>> There is a BA flight round about 10am & a Virgin flight at 11.30am.
>>> The flying time is just over 11 hours.
>>>
>>> If I catch either of these flights I will arrive in LAX well before
>>> the Sabbath commences in LAX. However, my Rabbi has said that I should
>>> check on the route the flight takes as it may go far enough North to
>>> actually encounter a time of darkness thus meaning that the Sabbath
>>> has already "arrived".
>>>
>>> Could you please advise if either of these flights do?
>>
>> You can depart LHR on Friday anytime between 06.00 and 15.30 and still 
>> arrive in LAX before Saturday.
>>
>> WTF has darkness got to do with it?  The Sabbath begins at 00.01am on 
>> Saturday.
>>
>> Gerry 
>>
> 
> Must be a Christian; showing the usual insensitivity to others' ideas
> of how their version "god" runs the universe:
> 
<snip>
 >
> Jim P.

Would a Christian say WTF?

Louis

Mxsmanic  wrote:

> Hatunen writes:
> 
> > As his rabbi pointed out, that's not the only problem. Flights
> > from LAX and SFO to London take a polar great circle route that
> > passes well north, usually over northern Greenland. Even in the
> > summer twilight is reached in the far north. In the winter it's
> > probably a certainty that any such flight, day or night, will at
> > some point enter night in the far north, triggering the start of
> > the Sabbath.
> 
> As an omniscient being, God would have foreseen these complications.  This
> being so, if he truly thought it necessary to observe the Sabbath with such
> robotic rigor, he would have provided specific instructions to cover all
> situations, past, present, and future.  The fact that he apparently did not do
> so implies that it doesn't matter to him.

Or that he doesn't exist.

-- 
(*) of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate -www.davidhorne.net 
(email address on website) "If people think God is interesting, the 
onus is on them to show that there is anything there to talk about. 
Otherwise they should just shut up about it."  -Richard Dawkins

Roland Perry  wrote:

> In message , at 16:16:35 on
> Sat, 19 Jan 2008, Mxsmanic  remarked:
> >> Isn't that what faith is all about?
> >
> >That depends on which faith you have in mind.  Faith in a religion doesn't
> >necessarily imply faith in other practitioners of the religion.  I've always
> >wondered what will happen if the rabbis are wrong, and the commandments are
> >not being correctly followed in consequence.  Given the extremely convoluted
> >nature of the reasoning sometimes applied by rabbis, I'd be very surprised if
> >they got it all right in even a minority of instances.
> 
> This is getting very off-topic, but surely no-one can be criticised for
> following the instructions of their faith's official practitioners,

Of course they can, but I agree it's off-topic, and it's usually
unproductive anyway.

-- 
(*) of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate -www.davidhorne.net 
(email address on website) "If people think God is interesting, the 
onus is on them to show that there is anything there to talk about. 
Otherwise they should just shut up about it."  -Richard Dawkins

William Black writes:

> Unless he set it as a test for the faithful...

Why would a supreme being test faith?

David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:

> Or that he doesn't exist.

In that case, none of the commandments has any importance.

Mxsmanic  wrote:

> David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:
> 
> > Or that he doesn't exist.
> 
> In that case, none of the commandments has any importance.

Er, so?

-- 
(*) of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate -www.davidhorne.net 
(email address on website) "If people think God is interesting, the 
onus is on them to show that there is anything there to talk about. 
Otherwise they should just shut up about it."  -Richard Dawkins

"Mxsmanic"  wrote ...
> Roland Perry writes:
>
>> This is getting very off-topic, but surely no-one can be criticised for
>> following the instructions of their faith's official practitioners, in
>> fact isn't having faith in that situation what it's supposed to be all
>> about?
>
> Judaism doesn't have a formal clergy.

....But does have a rabbinical interpretive policy based on substantial 
tradition and precedent.  As with most legal systems, there's seems 
available a shelf or two of applicable prior rulings and all matter of 
interpretations.  Unfortunately, therein seem to be the "rub".....Too many 
interpretations and a great deal of flexibility thereof, "sort of an excuse 
for every sin" approach depending upon the level of one's observance.

TMO

"Mxsmanic"  wrote ...
> William Black writes:
>
>> Unless he set it as a test for the faithful...
>
> Why would a supreme being test faith?

To separate the wheat from the chaff, not including those who had 
demonstrated self-capacity to separate.

TMO

"Mxsmanic"  wrote ...
> David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:
>
>> Or that he doesn't exist.
>
> In that case, none of the commandments has any importance.

A potentially risky assumption....  After all, if He does, and one spends a 
lifetime ignoring, flaunting thereof or otherwise engaging in flagrant and 
unrepentant non-observance, the penalty may be harsh.

After all, if there is no God, then one risks only the slings and arrows of 
outrageous fate or the consequences of one's actions,  potentially 
outrageous treatment by one's fellow man.  The fickle fingers of the Fates 
may be unavoidable, but the actions of fellow men can be painful and 
punitive.  There are places where the non-observance of the Sabbath may 
bring more than just opprobrium.

TMO

"TMOliver" <tmoliverjrFIX@hot.rr.comFIX> wrote:
> 
> "Mxsmanic"  wrote ...
>>
>> David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:
>>
>>> Or that he doesn't exist.
>>
>> In that case, none of the commandments has any importance.
> 
> A potentially risky assumption....  After all, if He does, and one
> spends a lifetime ignoring, flaunting thereof or otherwise engaging in
> flagrant and unrepentant non-observance, the penalty may be harsh.

But the Supreme Being, having the power of omniscience, would already know 
the answer, so there ia no need for any testing or uncertainty.  Your fate 
was already sealed when you were born. 

Might as well fling off all shackles and enjoy life. After all, it was 
predestined.

"Mxsmanic"  wrote in message 
news:bt05p3dnm427topnc30uje2cqi58jo6aet@4ax.com...
> Roland Perry writes:
>
>> This is getting very off-topic, but surely no-one can be criticised for
>> following the instructions of their faith's official practitioners, in
>> fact isn't having faith in that situation what it's supposed to be all
>> about?
>
> Judaism doesn't have a formal clergy.

Roland is correct.  And, BTW, Judaism DOES have a formal clergy - Rabbi's 
are ordained by accredited rabbinical schools just as many Christian 
ministers are ordained by theological schools and Catholic priests by their 
seminaries.

John Doe wrote:
> Roland Perry wrote:
> 
> 
>>No, because it's only *Friday* nights that matter.
> 
> 
> But technically, in the winter arctic, if the sun doesn't rise on
> friday, there can be no sunset on friday... So sabbath wouldn't happen
> if it is based on actual sunset vs darkness.
> 
> If it based on darkness, it would mean that the person would have all of
> friday in sabbath. And it would be problematic on saturday since stars
> would be visible all day. (again, no sunset on saturday).
> 
> Obviously, Abraham hadn't thought of northern arctic people when he
> accepted the commandments from God :-)

And his god was a pretty sloppy soul.  Or hadn't she managed to remember 
what she had created?

Mxsmanic wrote:

> Roland Perry writes:
> 
> 
>>This is getting very off-topic, but surely no-one can be criticised for 
>>following the instructions of their faith's official practitioners, in 
>>fact isn't having faith in that situation what it's supposed to be all 
>>about?
> 
> 
> Judaism doesn't have a formal clergy.

At least not for quite a while.

Louis Krupp wrote:

> Would a Christian say WTF?
> 
> Louis

Christians believe that Christ died for their sins, so "sins", like 
using the F word are forgiven.

I believe the Christian phrase would be "WTFWJD"

TMOliver wrote:

> "Mxsmanic"  wrote ...
> 
>>William Black writes:
>>
>>
>>>Unless he set it as a test for the faithful...
>>
>>Why would a supreme being test faith?
> 
> 
> To separate the wheat from the chaff, not including those who had 
> demonstrated self-capacity to separate.
> 

Why would "God" need a test to know this?

On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:34:53 -0800 (PST) ariopp  wrote:

:>I am a practicing Orthodox Jew and wish to travel form LHR to LAX on
:>Friday 8 February 2008.

:>There is a BA flight round about 10am & a Virgin flight at 11.30am.
:>The flying time is just over 11 hours.

:>If I catch either of these flights I will arrive in LAX well before
:>the Sabbath commences in LAX. However, my Rabbi has said that I should
:>check on the route the flight takes as it may go far enough North to
:>actually encounter a time of darkness thus meaning that the Sabbath
:>has already "arrived".

:>Could you please advise if either of these flights do?

You will not pass thru sunset if everything goes smooth.

But I suspect a troll. A true religious Jew will not place himself in a
situation where a Sabbath violation is likely. 

On a flight that long, especially out of LHR, there are many things that can
go wrong. 

What will you do if the takeoff is delayed? Strong headwinds? Delays getting
to the gate in LAX? Delays going thru passport control?

If you are not a troll, I would suggest giving yourself a cushion.

-- 
Binyamin Dissen 
http://www.dissensoftware.com

Should you use the mailblocks package and expect a response from me,
you should preauthorize the dissensoftware.com domain.

I very rarely bother responding to challenge/response systems,
especially those from irresponsible companies.

Jeff writes:

> Roland is correct.  And, BTW, Judaism DOES have a formal clergy - Rabbi's 
> are ordained by accredited rabbinical schools just as many Christian 
> ministers are ordained by theological schools and Catholic priests by their 
> seminaries. 

Not so.  There are many variations of Judaism, and they have different
standards for their various clergies (when they have any standards at all).
There is no centralized, official clergy for Judaism.  Catholicism has a pope
and an official hierarchy.  Most Protestant sects do, too, although each sect
has its own hierarchy (rather like Judaism, but still more formal).

TMOliver writes:

> To separate the wheat from the chaff, not including those who had 
> demonstrated self-capacity to separate.

How does a test of faith accomplish that?  Faith is essentially believing in
something for which there is no evidence.

TMOliver writes:

> A potentially risky assumption....  After all, if He does, and one spends a 
> lifetime ignoring, flaunting thereof or otherwise engaging in flagrant and 
> unrepentant non-observance, the penalty may be harsh.

And if one follows the wrong commandments because they were written by a human
being instead of by God, one risks the same penalty, potentially.  How does
one identify the _true_ commandments?

> There are places where the non-observance of the Sabbath may 
> bring more than just opprobrium.

Yes, but not through any action of a supreme being.

James Robinson writes:

> But the Supreme Being, having the power of omniscience, would already know 
> the answer, so there ia no need for any testing or uncertainty.  Your fate 
> was already sealed when you were born. 

Some religious systems of belief are based upon this premise.  Isn't it part
of Calvinist doctrine?

Mxsmanic  wrote:

> TMOliver writes:
> 
> > A potentially risky assumption....  After all, if He does, and one spends a
> > lifetime ignoring, flaunting thereof or otherwise engaging in flagrant and
> > unrepentant non-observance, the penalty may be harsh.
> 
> And if one follows the wrong commandments because they were written by a human
> being instead of by God, one risks the same penalty, potentially.  How does
> one identify the _true_ commandments?

There aren't any. I'm hoping these are rhetorical questions. 

-- 
(*) of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate -www.davidhorne.net 
(email address on website) "If people think God is interesting, the 
onus is on them to show that there is anything there to talk about. 
Otherwise they should just shut up about it."  -Richard Dawkins

Tired of martin ?

"David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)"  a écrit dans le 
message de news:1ib18va.1m5xms01l6cwfzN%d4g4h4@yahoo.co.uk...
> Mxsmanic  wrote:
>
>> TMOliver writes:
>>
>> > A potentially risky assumption....  After all, if He does, and one 
>> > spends a
>> > lifetime ignoring, flaunting thereof or otherwise engaging in flagrant 
>> > and
>> > unrepentant non-observance, the penalty may be harsh.
>>
>> And if one follows the wrong commandments because they were written by a 
>> human
>> being instead of by God, one risks the same penalty, potentially.  How 
>> does
>> one identify the _true_ commandments?
>
> There aren't any. I'm hoping these are rhetorical questions.
>
> -- 
> (*) of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate -www.davidhorne.net
> (email address on website) "If people think God is interesting, the
> onus is on them to show that there is anything there to talk about.
> Otherwise they should just shut up about it."  -Richard Dawkins

"Hatunen"  wrote in message 
news:a6d5p39814ml20bprsicb7c13d0emofbb6@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 16:24:46 -0800, Mr Travel <mrtravel@a.a>
> wrote:
>
>>Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message , at 23:45:47
>>> on Fri, 18 Jan 2008, Mr. Travel <mtravel@a.a> remarked:
>>>
>>>> How do you plan to avoid darkness on the return.
>>
>>Hence my question.
>>If it were a concern on the outbound, the oubound should have booked to
>>avoid the possibility. Due to early winter sunset times, and the chance
>>for delays, getting to your destination hotel before sunset, and
>>avoiding areas during the flight that were past sunset, was not assured.
>
> As his rabbi pointed out, that's not the only problem. Flights
> from LAX and SFO to London take a polar great circle route that
> passes well north, usually over northern Greenland. Even in the
> summer twilight is reached in the far north.

No it isnt. In  the high north it never gets dark in winter. I was in
the North West Territories of Canada 3 years ago and in June
it was never fully dark. I have photos taken at 1AM and it was
bright and clear.

Keith

Keith

"Keith Willshaw"  wrote in message 
news:fn0feb$fko$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk...
>
> "Hatunen"  wrote in message 
> news:a6d5p39814ml20bprsicb7c13d0emofbb6@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 16:24:46 -0800, Mr Travel <mrtravel@a.a>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message , at 23:45:47
>>>> on Fri, 18 Jan 2008, Mr. Travel <mtravel@a.a> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> How do you plan to avoid darkness on the return.
>>>
>>>Hence my question.
>>>If it were a concern on the outbound, the oubound should have booked to
>>>avoid the possibility. Due to early winter sunset times, and the chance
>>>for delays, getting to your destination hotel before sunset, and
>>>avoiding areas during the flight that were past sunset, was not assured.
>>
>> As his rabbi pointed out, that's not the only problem. Flights
>> from LAX and SFO to London take a polar great circle route that
>> passes well north, usually over northern Greenland. Even in the
>> summer twilight is reached in the far north.
>
> No it isnt. In  the high north it never gets dark in winter. I was in
> the North West Territories of Canada 3 years ago and in June
> it was never fully dark. I have photos taken at 1AM and it was
> bright and clear.
>
> Keith
>
> Keith
>

Have you mixed up summer and winter in that post?

Keith Willshaw wrote:

> 
> No it isnt. In  the high north it never gets dark in winter. I was in
> the North West Territories of Canada 3 years ago and in June
> it was never fully dark. I have photos taken at 1AM and it was
> bright and clear.
> 
> Keith


What does your flight in June have to do with winter?
Are you confusing NWT with NSW (New South Wales)?

Keith Willshaw writes:

> No it isnt. In  the high north it never gets dark in winter. I was in
> the North West Territories of Canada 3 years ago and in June
> it was never fully dark. I have photos taken at 1AM and it was
> bright and clear.

It all depends on your latitude.  Even at the latitude of Montreal,
astronomical twilight is never reached around the time of the summer solstice.

Keith Willshaw wrote:

> No it isnt. In  the high north it never gets dark in winter. I was in
> the North West Territories of Canada 3 years ago and in June
> it was never fully dark. 

never fully dark doesn't mean the sun does not set. The sun's trajectory
may keep it close enough to the horizon that the sky remains bright
throughout the time the sun is below the horizon (aka: sunset).

That is the case for all of the NWT below 66° latitude (arctic circle)
on june 21. And north of 66, 24 hour sunshine depends on when between
june 21 and sept 21 and how far north you are.

"Mxsmanic"  wrote in message 
news:kbd7p3dq5klqie5j2aq3110f53q04jq8lj@4ax.com...
> James Robinson writes:
>
>> But the Supreme Being, having the power of omniscience, would already 
>> know
>> the answer, so there ia no need for any testing or uncertainty.  Your 
>> fate
>> was already sealed when you were born.
>
> Some religious systems of belief are based upon this premise.  Isn't it 
> part
> of Calvinist doctrine?

Can't be

It denies free will.

With no free will there can be no sin.

-- 
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

"Mr Travel" <mrtravel@a.a> wrote in message 
news:4793a9d3$0$2146$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> TMOliver wrote:
>
>> "Mxsmanic"  wrote ...
>>
>>>William Black writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Unless he set it as a test for the faithful...
>>>
>>>Why would a supreme being test faith?
>>
>>
>> To separate the wheat from the chaff, not including those who had 
>> demonstrated self-capacity to separate.
>>
>
> Why would "God" need a test to know this?

Because man has free will.

Look,  this is all horribly basic.

Can't you lot just read a book.

-- 
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

"Jeff"  wrote in message 
news:eOKkj.4264$jJ5.1768@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net...
>
> "Mxsmanic"  wrote in message 
> news:bt05p3dnm427topnc30uje2cqi58jo6aet@4ax.com...
>> Roland Perry writes:
>>
>>> This is getting very off-topic, but surely no-one can be criticised for
>>> following the instructions of their faith's official practitioners, in
>>> fact isn't having faith in that situation what it's supposed to be all
>>> about?
>>
>> Judaism doesn't have a formal clergy.
>
> Roland is correct.  And, BTW, Judaism DOES have a formal clergy - Rabbi's 
> are ordained by accredited rabbinical schools

No they're not.

The accreditation document is issued by another rabbi and never the school.

It's authority depends on the reputation of the issuing rabbi.

If you get another rabbi who has seriously disagreed with the issuing rabbi 
you can get an interesting dispute,  which is why the various Chief Rabbis 
have 'courts' to settle such disputes.

Both parties HAVE to agree in writing to abide by the court's decision 
BEFORE the case starts.

-- 
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

"Mxsmanic"  wrote in message 
news:l4d7p3tfacp2oul6jt0n5dnm3lgaonqrp8@4ax.com...


> Most Protestant sects do, too, although each sect
> has its own hierarchy (rather like Judaism, but still more formal).


Mxsmaic wanders into the unknown again.  "Most" Protestant sects (making up 
an awesome and diverse spectrum) have no hierarchy at all.  Among them, 
dozens require no particular educational or certification qualifications for 
their "clergy", and in fact a number claim no "clergy" at all.  One of the 
largest in the US, the "Southern Baptists" license clergy but have no 
hierarchy beyond the affiliation of congregations into associations.

There are two "mainstreams" among US Protestants,  those with a structured 
hierarchy and those which hold to the congregational tradition.

TMO

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:35:49 -0500, John Doe 
wrote:

>Roland Perry wrote:
>
>> No, because it's only *Friday* nights that matter.
>
>But technically, in the winter arctic, if the sun doesn't rise on
>friday, there can be no sunset on friday... So sabbath wouldn't happen
>if it is based on actual sunset vs darkness.
>
>If it based on darkness, it would mean that the person would have all of
>friday in sabbath. And it would be problematic on saturday since stars
>would be visible all day. (again, no sunset on saturday).
>
>Obviously, Abraham hadn't thought of northern arctic people when he
>accepted the commandments from God :-)

It's probably why so few Jews north of latitude 66.6N. Not many
live south of latitude 66.6S, either. 

-- 
   ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
   *       Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow         *
   * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 12:01:50 -0800, Mr Travel <mrtravel@a.a>
wrote:

>Louis Krupp wrote:
>
>> Would a Christian say WTF?
>> 
>> Louis
>
>Christians believe that Christ died for their sins, so "sins", like 
>using the F word are forgiven.
>
>I believe the Christian phrase would be "WTFWJD"

Why would saying "fuck" be a sin? I don't see it listed in the
Ten Commandments.

-- 
   ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
   *       Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow         *
   * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 09:41:33 -0600, "TMOliver"
<tmoliverjrFIX@hot.rr.comFIX> wrote:

>
>"Mxsmanic"  wrote ...
>> David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*) writes:
>>
>>> Or that he doesn't exist.
>>
>> In that case, none of the commandments has any importance.
>
>A potentially risky assumption....  After all, if He does, and one spends a 
>lifetime ignoring, flaunting thereof or otherwise engaging in flagrant and 
>unrepentant non-observance, the penalty may be harsh.

Ah. Pascal's wager.


-- 
   ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
   *       Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow         *
   * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:45:45 -0000, "Keith Willshaw"
 wrote:

>
>"Hatunen"  wrote in message 
>news:a6d5p39814ml20bprsicb7c13d0emofbb6@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 16:24:46 -0800, Mr Travel <mrtravel@a.a>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message , at 23:45:47
>>>> on Fri, 18 Jan 2008, Mr. Travel <mtravel@a.a> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> How do you plan to avoid darkness on the return.
>>>
>>>Hence my question.
>>>If it were a concern on the outbound, the oubound should have booked to
>>>avoid the possibility. Due to early winter sunset times, and the chance
>>>for delays, getting to your destination hotel before sunset, and
>>>avoiding areas during the flight that were past sunset, was not assured.
>>
>> As his rabbi pointed out, that's not the only problem. Flights
>> from LAX and SFO to London take a polar great circle route that
>> passes well north, usually over northern Greenland. Even in the
>> summer twilight is reached in the far north.
>
>No it isnt. In  the high north it never gets dark in winter.

Huh? Do you mean in summer? And I didn't say it got dark.

>I was in
>the North West Territories of Canada 3 years ago and in June
>it was never fully dark. I have photos taken at 1AM and it was
>bright and clear.

Please note that it doesn't instantly get dark when the sun goes
down, like Click! WTF. Where'd the light go?. I have similar
photos from Finland, but, in fact, the sun did set. It just
remained twilight all night. And the twilight glow simply passed
from the northwest across the north and to the northeast, where
the sun rose again. The Jewish Sabbath begins at sunset, not when
it gets dark.

On a Finnair flight from San Francisco to Helsinki several
summers ago the plane took off in the evening and as it aimed in
a northerly direction the sun was off our left wing. As we
continued on the sun stayed off our left wing. Finally the sun
dipped below the horizon (sunset!) to the north, but rose again
less than an hour later and it continued to be off our left wing
until we reached Helsinki. But although we had left on a Thrusday
evening, and the sun never really left our left wing save to dip
below the horizon for a short time, we arrived in Helsinki on
Friday morning.


-- 
   ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
   *       Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow         *
   * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Hatunen wrote:

> On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 12:01:50 -0800, Mr Travel <mrtravel@a.a>
> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Louis Krupp wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Would a Christian say WTF?
>>>
>>>Louis
>>
>>Christians believe that Christ died for their sins, so "sins", like 
>>using the F word are forgiven.
>>
>>I believe the Christian phrase would be "WTFWJD"
> 
> 
> Why would saying "fuck" be a sin? I don't see it listed in the
> Ten Commandments.
> 

Sins are not limited by the Commandments.
Those are like a top ten list like on Letterman

Mr. Travel writes:

> Sins are not limited by the Commandments.

Sins are limited only by human imagination.

On Jan 20, 6:35 am, John Doe  wrote:
> Roland Perry wrote:
> > No, because it's only *Friday* nights that matter.
>
> But technically, in the winter arctic, if the sun doesn't rise on
> friday, there can be no sunset on friday... So sabbath wouldn't happen
> if it is based on actual sunset vs darkness.
>
> If it based on darkness, it would mean that the person would have all of
> friday in sabbath. And it would be problematic on saturday since stars
> would be visible all day. (again, no sunset on saturday).
>
> Obviously, Abraham hadn't thought of northern arctic people when he
> accepted the commandments from God :-)

And obviously you are ignorant about the commandments. They weren't
handed down until Moses, over 400 years after Abraham.

timbit   nitpicks;

>> Obviously, Abraham hadn't thought of northern arctic people when he
>> accepted the commandments from God :-)

> And obviously you are ignorant about the commandments. They weren't
> handed down until Moses, over 400 years after Abraham.


Okay, so it was *Moses* who hadn't thought of northern arctic people
when he accepted the commandments from God.  BFD.  It doesn't change
the gist of what the guy said.



Geoff

--
"Liberals love America like O.J.
 loved Nicole." -- Ann Coulter