Following up to d4g4h4@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)) :

>> lack of relevance noted.   
>
>Not sure why William is getting flack here.

In response to his other post noting a similar lack of
information/relevance.
-- 
Tim C.

On Tue, 4 Sep 2007 13:11:21 +0100, d4g4h4@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne,
_the_ chancellor (*)) wrote:

>It seemed relevant to me, but what do you expect in this thread? The
>main protagonist here is criticising people for spending money in
>airport lounges, then says he doesn't fly. There's a Mixi-ism going on,
>for sure, but I don't think it's William.

The over charging of travelers just doesn't apply to you people who
just love to thrown your money away you know my point being ALL people
are being overcharged by refreshment outlets and will continue to do
so until some of you soft jesses learn to keep your hands in your
pockets and take your refreshments with you . One day this thieving
government of ours will catch on to the way some are squandering your
money and decide to up income tax and vat etc .

wrote in message 
news:g23ud3l7svjhbtsmuqna50tkjaf72bi1n0@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 4 Sep 2007 13:11:21 +0100, d4g4h4@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne,
> _the_ chancellor (*)) wrote:
>
>>It seemed relevant to me, but what do you expect in this thread? The
>>main protagonist here is criticising people for spending money in
>>airport lounges, then says he doesn't fly. There's a Mixi-ism going on,
>>for sure, but I don't think it's William.
>
> The over charging of travelers just doesn't apply to you people who
> just love to thrown your money away you know my point being ALL people
> are being overcharged by refreshment outlets

Not all people.  You don't need to buy

> and will continue to do
> so until some of you soft jesses learn to keep your hands in your
> pockets and take your refreshments with you .

so you noticed :-(

tim

wrote in message 
news:g23ud3l7svjhbtsmuqna50tkjaf72bi1n0@4ax.com...

> The over charging of travelers just doesn't apply to you people who
> just love to thrown your money away you know my point being ALL people
> are being overcharged by refreshment outlets and will continue to do
> so until some of you soft jesses learn to keep your hands in your
> pockets and take your refreshments with you .

That'll be a bloody good trick for your next 4 hour wait at Heathrow.


-- 
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

"William Black"  wrote in message 
news:fbn68p$f09$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>
>  wrote in message 
> news:g23ud3l7svjhbtsmuqna50tkjaf72bi1n0@4ax.com...
>
>> The over charging of travelers just doesn't apply to you people who
>> just love to thrown your money away you know my point being ALL people
>> are being overcharged by refreshment outlets and will continue to do
>> so until some of you soft jesses learn to keep your hands in your
>> pockets and take your refreshments with you .
>
> That'll be a bloody good trick for your next 4 hour wait at Heathrow.

The airline is supposed to look after you for such a wait.

And so far, I have never had an airline not.

tim

"tim....."  wrote in message 
news:5k8kmdF2k4vsU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "William Black"  wrote in message 
> news:fbn68p$f09$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>>
>>  wrote in message 
>> news:g23ud3l7svjhbtsmuqna50tkjaf72bi1n0@4ax.com...
>>
>>> The over charging of travelers just doesn't apply to you people who
>>> just love to thrown your money away you know my point being ALL people
>>> are being overcharged by refreshment outlets and will continue to do
>>> so until some of you soft jesses learn to keep your hands in your
>>> pockets and take your refreshments with you .
>>
>> That'll be a bloody good trick for your next 4 hour wait at Heathrow.
>
> The airline is supposed to look after you for such a wait.

You're kidding right?

Get a long haul into Heathrow and if you've got a six hour wait for your 
shuttle 'up north' they'll politely ignore you.

-- 
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

"Roland Perry"  wrote in message 
news:$iGlhPHZf63GFAv0@perry.co.uk...
> In message , at 22:17:50 on Wed, 5 Sep 
> 2007, tim.....  remarked:
>>> That'll be a bloody good trick for your next 4 hour wait at Heathrow.
>>
>>The airline is supposed to look after you for such a wait.
>>
>>And so far, I have never had an airline not.
>
> When I flew from Gatwick recently, the airport was *taking* things away 
> from waiting passengers [this was in the security queue]. Is it really so 
> different at Heathrow? Where does the airline provide the supplies, not at 
> checkin, surely?

I once had a bottle of water thrust into my hand in the aerobridge,  this 
was during the 'security alert' at Heathrow last year.

Apart from that,  nothing is usually given to passengers before boarding.

Oh,  and I once got a free meal at Bahrain because I was there for more than 
six hours,  but that was the gift of the airport and not the airline.

-- 
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

"William Black"  wrote in message 
news:fboboh$i6e$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>
> "tim....."  wrote in message 
> news:5k8kmdF2k4vsU1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>> "William Black"  wrote in message 
>> news:fbn68p$f09$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>>>
>>>  wrote in message 
>>> news:g23ud3l7svjhbtsmuqna50tkjaf72bi1n0@4ax.com...
>>>
>>>> The over charging of travelers just doesn't apply to you people who
>>>> just love to thrown your money away you know my point being ALL people
>>>> are being overcharged by refreshment outlets and will continue to do
>>>> so until some of you soft jesses learn to keep your hands in your
>>>> pockets and take your refreshments with you .
>>>
>>> That'll be a bloody good trick for your next 4 hour wait at Heathrow.
>>
>> The airline is supposed to look after you for such a wait.
>
> You're kidding right?
>
> Get a long haul into Heathrow and if you've got a six hour wait for your 
> shuttle 'up north' they'll politely ignore you.

That is a wait that you have scheduled, I don't do those,
I find a better route!.

I assumed you were talking about unexpected wiats.

tim

"Roland Perry"  wrote in message 
news:$iGlhPHZf63GFAv0@perry.co.uk...
> In message , at 22:17:50 on Wed, 5 Sep 
> 2007, tim.....  remarked:
>>> That'll be a bloody good trick for your next 4 hour wait at Heathrow.
>>
>>The airline is supposed to look after you for such a wait.
>>
>>And so far, I have never had an airline not.
>
> When I flew from Gatwick recently, the airport was *taking* things away 
> from waiting passengers [this was in the security queue]. Is it really so 
> different at Heathrow? Where does the airline provide the supplies, not at 
> checkin, surely?

I'm not sure wtaht you are asking here, but as it is now
clear that I misunderstood Williams post it probably
doesn't matter.

But when the airline is in a situation where they have to
look after you, they normally issue vouchers which you
then spend in the rip-off shops.

tim

"Roland Perry"  wrote in message 
news:7nN0QdV1$73GFA$c@perry.co.uk...
> In message , at 09:38:02 on Thu, 6 Sep 
> 2007, tim.....  remarked:
>>> Get a long haul into Heathrow and if you've got a six hour wait for your
>>> shuttle 'up north' they'll politely ignore you.
>>
>>That is a wait that you have scheduled, I don't do those,
>>I find a better route!.
>
> Better in terms of layover are often much more expensive.

I don't agree.  I've never been offered a cheaper flight
by waiting 6 hours for a connection instead of 2.

> OK for those who can afford it.

Is this really a big issue.  I think it likley that few people
travelling, either on business or on holiday, are going to
schedule a really crappy connection to save some money.
You can usually find something more appropriate at a
similar price.

tim

"tim....."  wrote in message 
news:5k9shoF2oepjU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "William Black"  wrote in message 
> news:fboboh$i6e$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>>
>> "tim....."  wrote in message 
>> news:5k8kmdF2k4vsU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>
>>> "William Black"  wrote in message 
>>> news:fbn68p$f09$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>>>>
>>>>  wrote in message 
>>>> news:g23ud3l7svjhbtsmuqna50tkjaf72bi1n0@4ax.com...
>>>>
>>>>> The over charging of travelers just doesn't apply to you people who
>>>>> just love to thrown your money away you know my point being ALL people
>>>>> are being overcharged by refreshment outlets and will continue to do
>>>>> so until some of you soft jesses learn to keep your hands in your
>>>>> pockets and take your refreshments with you .
>>>>
>>>> That'll be a bloody good trick for your next 4 hour wait at Heathrow.
>>>
>>> The airline is supposed to look after you for such a wait.
>>
>> You're kidding right?
>>
>> Get a long haul into Heathrow and if you've got a six hour wait for your 
>> shuttle 'up north' they'll politely ignore you.
>
> That is a wait that you have scheduled, I don't do those,
> I find a better route!.

You must live in the USA.

When travelling from the Far East to Europe you take what's there.

-- 
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

"William Black"  wrote in message 
news:fbog7p$vs7$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>
> "tim....."  wrote in message 
> news:5k9shoF2oepjU1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>> "William Black"  wrote in message 
>> news:fboboh$i6e$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>>>
>>> "tim....."  wrote in message 
>>> news:5k8kmdF2k4vsU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>
>>>> "William Black"  wrote in message 
>>>> news:fbn68p$f09$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>>>>>
>>>>>  wrote in message 
>>>>> news:g23ud3l7svjhbtsmuqna50tkjaf72bi1n0@4ax.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>> The over charging of travelers just doesn't apply to you people who
>>>>>> just love to thrown your money away you know my point being ALL 
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> are being overcharged by refreshment outlets and will continue to do
>>>>>> so until some of you soft jesses learn to keep your hands in your
>>>>>> pockets and take your refreshments with you .
>>>>>
>>>>> That'll be a bloody good trick for your next 4 hour wait at Heathrow.
>>>>
>>>> The airline is supposed to look after you for such a wait.
>>>
>>> You're kidding right?
>>>
>>> Get a long haul into Heathrow and if you've got a six hour wait for your 
>>> shuttle 'up north' they'll politely ignore you.
>>
>> That is a wait that you have scheduled, I don't do those,
>> I find a better route!.
>
> You must live in the USA.

Nope, the UK.

> When travelling from the Far East to Europe you take what's there.

I can travel everywhere that I want to from London so I
suppose that I am being a bit unfair.

I have a bitch of a 3 hour journey by PT to the London airport
that I need to get to, but I never have a long wait for that
connection.

But

The same must be true of most places in Western Europe.
From wherever you are starting in the world there is going
to be a direct flight to AMS/FRA/CDG/LON/CPH/ETC
which enables you to continue your journey by train with a
journey time of less than 6 hours.  So waiting at the airport
for 6 hours just to get an onward shuttle seems like a lifestyle
choice rather than a necessity.

(I'm discounting the wait at the other end because this thread
is discussing rip-off prices at UK aiports)

tim

"Roland Perry"  wrote in message 
news:CTV6djYWZ83GFALH@perry.co.uk...
> In message , at 10:08:01 on Thu, 6 Sep 
> 2007, tim.....  remarked:
>>>>> Get a long haul into Heathrow and if you've got a six hour wait for 
>>>>> your
>>>>> shuttle 'up north' they'll politely ignore you.
>>>>
>>>>That is a wait that you have scheduled, I don't do those,
>>>>I find a better route!.
>>>
>>> Better in terms of layover are often much more expensive.
>>
>>I don't agree.  I've never been offered a cheaper flight
>>by waiting 6 hours for a connection instead of 2.
>
> It's happened to me very often. Just this week I had what amounts to a 
> long layover in Geneva (the only EZY out after my meeting ended is at 
> about 10pm), and switching to a different carrier/routing would cost 
> vastly more.

We are talking about connections.

If making a single flight you don't need to spend the spare
time at the airport, do you?

> If you can magic up a £30 flight at 7pm, I'd catch it in a flash!
>
>>> OK for those who can afford it.
>>
>>Is this really a big issue.  I think it likley that few people
>>travelling, either on business or on holiday, are going to
>>schedule a really crappy connection to save some money.
>>You can usually find something more appropriate at a
>>similar price.
>
> I'm reminded of a trip I did to Bahrain, where the by-far-cheapest [and 
> I'm talking hundred of pounds) through-ticketed option involved a very 
> long layover in Dubai.

I am sure that there are a few examples.  But not many

tim

"tim....."  wrote in message 
news:5ka3onF2qiltU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "William Black"  wrote in message 
> news:fbog7p$vs7$1@registered.motzarella.org...

>> You must live in the USA.
>
> Nope, the UK.
>
>> When travelling from the Far East to Europe you take what's there.
>
> I can travel everywhere that I want to from London so I
> suppose that I am being a bit unfair.
>
> I have a bitch of a 3 hour journey by PT to the London airport
> that I need to get to, but I never have a long wait for that
> connection.

You live within striking distance of the largest international hub in the 
world.

I don't.

I'd have to catch at least three trains to get to Heathrow

The alternative is a shuttle flight down from a provincial airport.

If I'm flying a long way this will almost invariably include at least a two 
hour wait at Heathrow,  and in the recent security farce I had a three hour 
wait and only just managed to get my flight because at Heathrow I had to 
reclaim my luggage,  go through check-in AGAIN,  go through two security 
checks and get to the gate somewhere near Reading out at the extreme end of 
Terminal 3.


-- 
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

"tim....."  wrote ...
>
>
> Is this really a big issue.  I think it likley that few people
> travelling, either on business or on holiday, are going to
> schedule a really crappy connection to save some money.
> You can usually find something more appropriate at a
> similar price.
>

While an anecdote and from the USA at that....

2 weeks ago, I was returning from ABQ to ACT, only about 700 miles, but two 
flights.

A "Round Trip" using my legs to ABQ as planned, with a Friday evening 
return, 3P or so, with a hour layover at DFW for the connection to ACT, was 
over $600, "capacity control" on a high demand late Friday return to ACT.

If I stayed over Friday night, departing ABQ at 11A, with a 4 hour layover 
at DFW, same airlines, same equipment (ancient MD80s and SAAB turboprops), 
the RT was a bit above $200.  Saturday afternoon cheap seats......

Don't shout, Tim, until you see the whites of their eyes (and no WTF you're 
posting about!)

TMO

"Iceman"  wrote in message 
news:1189094063.940274.78700@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 6, 10:49 am, Roland Perry  wrote:
>> In message <c6c11e1e4f%r...@greywall.demon.co.uk>, at 15:24:45 on Thu, 6
>> Sep 2007, Graeme Wall  remarked:
>> >Greatest number of aircraft movements is Washington National.
>>
>> No, that can't be right. Doesn't have enough simultaneous runways!
>
>
> There are a huge number of one hour flights to and from New York that
> are going in and out of there constantly.  They are turned around very
> quickly.
>
>> Most non-stop destinations is Frankfurt (265 says wiki).
>
>
> Heathrow probably has the most intercontinental destinations of any
> airport.
>

As earlier discussed here, statistics can be misleading.  LHR certainly is 
likely to lead the list when it comes to volume of international 
flights....After all, there are many countries located with 750 miles of 
London.

In the case of ORD, the only nearby international destination is Canada, 
with few if any more flights than leave for London.

At ATL, the "busiest" airport, you can fly a long, long way and still be 
"domestic".

Most frequent travelers might agree that aside from some noxious Third World 
backwaters or maybe Moscow, LHR holds #1 Rank when it comes to places to 
avoid spending any more time than absolutely necessary.  I'd rather prep for 
a colonoscopy than spend an afternoon in the warm embrace of BAA facilities, 
management, and staff.

TMO

"Jugdish"  wrote in message 
news:1189083451.114574.110300@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

> dont worry, peak oil has already happened, soon you wont be able to go
> anywhere :)
>

I keep hearing this 'peak oil' nonsense.

We've been here before,  in 1973,  before which it wasn't economic to 
extract North Sea Oil.

-- 
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

"TMOliver" <tmoliverjrFIX@hot.rr.comFIX> wrote in message 
news:46e029ad$0$11051$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>

> Most frequent travelers might agree that aside from some noxious Third 
> World backwaters or maybe Moscow, LHR holds #1 Rank when it comes to 
> places to avoid spending any more time than absolutely necessary.  I'd 
> rather prep for a colonoscopy than spend an afternoon in the warm embrace 
> of BAA facilities, management, and staff.

The major discovery of my recent flying life has been about how easy life 
gets at Heathrow when you've got a frequent flyer card that has moved you up 
a notch.

All of a sudden it's priority check-in,  Sitting in comfortable arm-chairs, 
drinking decent coffee for free while considering if it's possible 
manufacture a deeper pile carpet and wondering if the roast beef or the 
smoked salmon sandwiches will be better before you drink some of their 
premium brand booze.

Mind you,  you get some funny looks if you're just in from a ten hour flight 
and are waiting for your connection onwards,  We tend to dress slightly 
eccentrically, in combat pants and an assortment of interesting but 
comfortable stuff that doesn't show the stains and comes off in layers as 
the temperature goes down/up as we go North/South, and carrying custom made 
leather luggage.  Their usual clientele seems to dress exclusively in 
'designer' black and are pulling dead cheap wheeled carry-ons about.


-- 
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 08:10:17 +0100, Roland Perry 
wrote:

>When I flew from Gatwick recently, the airport was *taking* things away 
>from waiting passengers [this was in the security queue]. Is it really 
>so different at Heathrow? Where does the airline provide the supplies, 
>not at checkin, surely?

They should provide you with refreshment vouchers, and while I've been
lucky enough never to have been delayed to that extent while
travelling by air I've seen plenty of people redeeming them.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 13:16:06 +0100, "William Black"
 wrote:

>If I'm flying a long way this will almost invariably include at least a two 
>hour wait at Heathrow,  and in the recent security farce I had a three hour 
>wait and only just managed to get my flight because at Heathrow I had to 
>reclaim my luggage,  go through check-in AGAIN,  go through two security 
>checks and get to the gate somewhere near Reading out at the extreme end of 
>Terminal 3.

If I was connecting from a UK regional airport to anywhere of any
significance it'd be via KLM to AMS and not via Thiefrow.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

"Neil Williams"  wrote in message 
news:46e0634a.445961711@news.individual.net...
> On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 13:16:06 +0100, "William Black"
>  wrote:
>
>>If I'm flying a long way this will almost invariably include at least a 
>>two
>>hour wait at Heathrow,  and in the recent security farce I had a three 
>>hour
>>wait and only just managed to get my flight because at Heathrow I had to
>>reclaim my luggage,  go through check-in AGAIN,  go through two security
>>checks and get to the gate somewhere near Reading out at the extreme end 
>>of
>>Terminal 3.
>
> If I was connecting from a UK regional airport to anywhere of any
> significance it'd be via KLM to AMS and not via Thiefrow.

KLM,  the airline that will definitely lose your luggage...

And charge you £200 more than anyone else for the privilege...

-- 
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

"Jugdish"  wrote in message 
news:1189107576.450663.64380@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On 6 Sep, 20:40, "William Black"  wrote:
>> "Jugdish"  wrote in message
>>
>> news:1189083451.114574.110300@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > dont worry, peak oil has already happened, soon you wont be able to go
>> > anywhere :)
>>
>> I keep hearing this 'peak oil' nonsense.
>>
> so it will last forever ??
>
> thats a relief.....
>

I imagine it'll see us both out.

I also imagine they'll develop a system that doesn't use oil in the 
meantime,  walking to work is a great driver of ideas...

-- 
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

William Black  wrote:

> "Neil Williams"  wrote in message 
> news:46e0634a.445961711@news.individual.net...
> > On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 13:16:06 +0100, "William Black"
> >  wrote:
> >
> >>If I'm flying a long way this will almost invariably include at least a
> >>two
> >>hour wait at Heathrow,  and in the recent security farce I had a three
> >>hour
> >>wait and only just managed to get my flight because at Heathrow I had to
> >>reclaim my luggage,  go through check-in AGAIN,  go through two security
> >>checks and get to the gate somewhere near Reading out at the extreme end
> >>of
> >>Terminal 3.
> >
> > If I was connecting from a UK regional airport to anywhere of any
> > significance it'd be via KLM to AMS and not via Thiefrow.
> 
> KLM,  the airline that will definitely lose your luggage...

They've never lost mine. I had a wall hanging that was in a cardboard
tube delayed for a few days on my last transatlantic (via AMS from
Manchester) with them, but it got here fine, and delivered to my
building.

-- 
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"He can't be as stupid as he looks, but nevertheless he probably 
is quite a stupid man." Richard Dawkins on Pres. Bush"

On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 21:42:21 +0100, "William Black"
 wrote:

>KLM,  the airline that will definitely lose your luggage...

This is a fair point, though I'd rather arrive without my luggage than
not at all due to having missed a connection via Thiefrow.

>And charge you £200 more than anyone else for the privilege...

KLM flights don't seem offensively expensive to me.  BA are far more
extortionate.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 21:45:16 +0100, d4g4h4@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne,
_the_ chancellor (*)) wrote:

>They've never lost mine. I had a wall hanging that was in a cardboard
>tube delayed for a few days on my last transatlantic (via AMS from
>Manchester) with them, but it got here fine, and delivered to my
>building.

They "lost" my bike on my final trip back from Holland, but that was
vaguely understandable as it was a full flight in a Fokker 100 which
hardly had enough space for everyone's bags without it.  As with
yourself, it was delivered the next day, which saved me the effort of
bothering to try to put it back together in the corner of BHX arrivals
hall and therefore didn't really bother me.

The thing I did find very poor was that, if a bag is left off a flight
for any reason, it isn't immediately scanned back into the system to
flag it as "we know where it is, it's just late".  As this isn't
uncommon, a better IT system should really be possible these days.

That said, if I'd been pianning a cycling holiday it would have been
rather different....

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Neil Williams  wrote:

> On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 21:45:16 +0100, d4g4h4@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne,
> _the_ chancellor (*)) wrote:
> 
> >They've never lost mine. I had a wall hanging that was in a cardboard
> >tube delayed for a few days on my last transatlantic (via AMS from
> >Manchester) with them, but it got here fine, and delivered to my
> >building.
> 
> They "lost" my bike on my final trip back from Holland, but that was
> vaguely understandable as it was a full flight in a Fokker 100

I can never get over the way that aircraft sounds in Dutch!

-- 
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"He can't be as stupid as he looks, but nevertheless he probably 
is quite a stupid man." Richard Dawkins on Pres. Bush"

Neil Williams  wrote:

> On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 21:42:21 +0100, "William Black"
>  wrote:
> 
> >KLM,  the airline that will definitely lose your luggage...
> 
> This is a fair point, though I'd rather arrive without my luggage than
> not at all due to having missed a connection via Thiefrow.
> 
> >And charge you £200 more than anyone else for the privilege...
> 
> KLM flights don't seem offensively expensive to me.  BA are far more
> extortionate.

Most of my transatlantic flights to the US from Manchester in the last
few years have been on KLM (or codeshares) and they were always
significantly cheaper than BA....

-- 
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"He can't be as stupid as he looks, but nevertheless he probably 
is quite a stupid man." Richard Dawkins on Pres. Bush"

On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 22:40:17 +0100, d4g4h4@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne,
_the_ chancellor (*)) wrote:

>I can never get over the way that aircraft sounds in Dutch!

Nasty little Fokkers at times ;)

(Actually, I'm a big fan of them.  F50s are nothing if not
interesting, and F70s and F100s have very nice wide seats in a 2+3
arrangement - even a middle isn't that unpleasant.)

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

"Neil Williams"  wrote in message 
news:46e0753b.450555145@news.individual.net...
> On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 22:40:17 +0100, d4g4h4@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne,
> _the_ chancellor (*)) wrote:
>
>>I can never get over the way that aircraft sounds in Dutch!
>
> Nasty little Fokkers at times ;)
>
> (Actually, I'm a big fan of them.  F50s are nothing if not
> interesting, and F70s and F100s have very nice wide seats in a 2+3
> arrangement - even a middle isn't that unpleasant.)

It was on a Fokker 50 that they lost my luggage,  including three longbows, 
four dozen arrows and an assortment of interesting accessories.

They turned up,  along with my suitcase full of dirty washing,  after a 
week...

When I first got on the thing I though it was some sort of novelty boarding 
gate...


-- 
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

"Neil Williams"  wrote in message 
news:46e071e9.449705844@news.individual.net...
> On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 21:42:21 +0100, "William Black"
>  wrote:
>
>>KLM,  the airline that will definitely lose your luggage...
>
> This is a fair point, though I'd rather arrive without my luggage than
> not at all due to having missed a connection via Thiefrow.
>
>>And charge you £200 more than anyone else for the privilege...
>
> KLM flights don't seem offensively expensive to me.  BA are far more
> extortionate.

Depends on where you're going to,  and where from.

BA aren't too bad to the Far East now,  but Emirates and Gulf have them all 
beaten on price.

-- 
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

"Jugdish"  wrote in message 
news:1189151918.793735.150650@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On 6 Sep, 22:43, "William Black"  wrote:
>> "Jugdish"  wrote in message
>>
>> news:1189107576.450663.64380@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > On 6 Sep, 20:40, "William Black"  wrote:
>> >> "Jugdish"  wrote in message
>>
>> >>news:1189083451.114574.110300@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >> > dont worry, peak oil has already happened, soon you wont be able to 
>> >> > go
>> >> > anywhere :)
>>
>> >> I keep hearing this 'peak oil' nonsense.
>>
>> > so it will last forever ??
>>
>> > thats a relief.....
>>
>> I imagine it'll see us both out.
>>
>> I also imagine they'll develop a system that doesn't use oil in the
>> meantime,  walking to work is a great driver of ideas...
>
> imagine being the operative word
>

So we're all going to die?

I put more faith in human ingenuity than that.

-- 
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

"Jugdish"  wrote in message 
news:1189152226.707271.102320@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On 6 Sep, 22:49, Iceman  wrote:
>> On Sep 6, 3:39 pm, Jugdish  wrote:
>>
>> > On 6 Sep, 20:40, "William Black"  wrote:> 
>> > "Jugdish"  wrote in message
>>
>> > >news:1189083451.114574.110300@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > > > dont worry, peak oil has already happened, soon you wont be able to 
>> > > > go
>> > > > anywhere :)
>>
>> > > I keep hearing this 'peak oil' nonsense.
>>
>> > so it will last forever ??
>>
>> > thats a relief.....
>>
>> The opponents of the peak oil theory don't think that oil will last
>> forever - only that there is unlikely to be a supply crunch in the
>> next few decades at roughly current rates of usage.  Obviously oil is
>> a finite resource.
>
> you bet
> http://www.hubbertpeak.com/summary.htm
>

As always,  suspect figures,  no account taken of the increase of 
sustainable energy meaning ta drop in oil use.


-- 
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

"Jugdish"  wrote ...
> On 7 Sep, 10:05, "William Black"  wrote:
>
>>
>> I put more faith in human ingenuity than that.
>
> hamsters ?
>
Well, hamsters are critters with considerably more intelligence and 
imagination than you seem to possess, Jughead....

I suppose that we could simply cease to explore for petroleum and natural 
gas, overlooking hitherto unfound and "unproven" reserves (the same sort as 
those discovered in the last few decades which have doubled previous 
estimates) and not find suitable and acceptable ways to drill for vast 
amounts of oil and gas already accessible - for example, part of a pool 
15,000 feet underground beneath some land in East Texas in which I hold a 
percentage of the "mineral rights", with drilling and production costs still 
a bit above current market prices for natural gas,  and to not work to 
convince tree huggers that there's nothing any more sacred about oil beneath 
ANWR or the Santa Barbara Channel than any other spot on the globe.

......and when all those chances are done, pools emptied and resaves found 
and exploited, we could not bother squeeze oil from the tarry sands of 
Canada and Siberia.

Meanwhile, in the same methodical fashion that scientific research has 
brought us incomparable and unmatched benefits in little more than our 
lifetimes, I suspect that ample alternatives already exists in the fertile 
imaginations of those who work to find them, instead of, like you, sitting 
around on the top wire croaking like the ravens of inevitable doom....

TMO

On 7 Sep, 18:55, "TMOliver" <tmoliverjr...@hot.rr.comFIX> wrote:
> "Jugdish"  wrote ...> On 7 Sep, 10:05, "William Black"  wrote:
>
> >> I put more faith in human ingenuity than that.
>
> > hamsters ?
>
> Well, hamsters are critters with considerably more intelligence and
> imagination than you seem to possess, Jughead....
>
> I suppose that we could simply cease to explore for petroleum and natural
> gas, overlooking hitherto unfound and "unproven" reserves (the same sort as
> those discovered in the last few decades which have doubled previous
> estimates) and not find suitable and acceptable ways to drill for vast
> amounts of oil and gas already accessible - for example, part of a pool
> 15,000 feet underground beneath some land in East Texas in which I hold a
> percentage of the "mineral rights", with drilling and production costs still
> a bit above current market prices for natural gas,  and to not work to
> convince tree huggers that there's nothing any more sacred about oil beneath
> ANWR or the Santa Barbara Channel than any other spot on the globe.
>
> ......and when all those chances are done, pools emptied and resaves found
> and exploited, we could not bother squeeze oil from the tarry sands of
> Canada and Siberia.
>
> Meanwhile, in the same methodical fashion that scientific research has
> brought us incomparable and unmatched benefits in little more than our
> lifetimes, I suspect that ample alternatives already exists in the fertile
> imaginations of those who work to find them, instead of, like you, sitting
> around on the top wire croaking like the ravens of inevitable doom....
>
> TMO

chew on this hamster lover :)
http://www.peakoil.net/Publications/PeakOilSpclOrder%2315TextCharts020806Low.pdf

"hamsters revenge"  wrote in message 
news:1189189976.726640.71730@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On 7 Sep, 18:55, "TMOliver" <tmoliverjr...@hot.rr.comFIX> wrote:
>> "Jugdish"  wrote ...> On 7 Sep, 10:05, "William 
>> Black"  wrote:
>>
>> >> I put more faith in human ingenuity than that.
>>
>> > hamsters ?
>>
>> Well, hamsters are critters with considerably more intelligence and
>> imagination than you seem to possess, Jughead....
>>
>> I suppose that we could simply cease to explore for petroleum and natural
>> gas, overlooking hitherto unfound and "unproven" reserves (the same sort 
>> as
>> those discovered in the last few decades which have doubled previous
>> estimates) and not find suitable and acceptable ways to drill for vast
>> amounts of oil and gas already accessible - for example, part of a pool
>> 15,000 feet underground beneath some land in East Texas in which I hold a
>> percentage of the "mineral rights", with drilling and production costs 
>> still
>> a bit above current market prices for natural gas,  and to not work to
>> convince tree huggers that there's nothing any more sacred about oil 
>> beneath
>> ANWR or the Santa Barbara Channel than any other spot on the globe.
>>
>> ......and when all those chances are done, pools emptied and resaves 
>> found
>> and exploited, we could not bother squeeze oil from the tarry sands of
>> Canada and Siberia.
>>
>> Meanwhile, in the same methodical fashion that scientific research has
>> brought us incomparable and unmatched benefits in little more than our
>> lifetimes, I suspect that ample alternatives already exists in the 
>> fertile
>> imaginations of those who work to find them, instead of, like you, 
>> sitting
>> around on the top wire croaking like the ravens of inevitable doom....
>>
>> TMO
>
> chew on this hamster lover :)
> http://www.peakoil.net/Publications/PeakOilSpclOrder%2315TextCharts020806Low.pdf
>

Has there been a recent TV show about Peak Oil in the US this week?

The air head tendency is rabbiting about little else...

Look,  there's oceans of the stuff down there,  it just isn't economic to 
dig it out yet.  It will be well before the price of oil gets anywhere near 
the price of bottled water.

After the oil is gone there are zillions of tonnes of methane under the sea 
in liquid form.

After that there's orbital collection of solar power,  tidal power,  and the 
tree huggers favourite,  nuclear power.

-- 
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

"TMOliver" <tmoliverjrFIX@hot.rr.comFIX> wrote in message 
news:46e181f2$0$4076$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...

>for example, part of a pool 15,000 feet underground beneath some land in 
>East Texas in which I hold a percentage of the "mineral rights", with 
>drilling and production costs still a bit above current market prices for 
>natural gas,

You going to be rich Tom?

-- 
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

"Jugdish"  wrote in message 
news:1189153650.318150.138340@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
> On 7 Sep, 10:07, "William Black"  wrote:
>> "Jugdish"  wrote in message
>>
>> news:1189152226.707271.102320@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 6 Sep, 22:49, Iceman  wrote:
>> >> On Sep 6, 3:39 pm, Jugdish  wrote:
>>
>> >> > On 6 Sep, 20:40, "William Black"  
>> >> > wrote:>
>> >> > "Jugdish"  wrote in message
>>
>> >> > >news:1189083451.114574.110300@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >> > > > dont worry, peak oil has already happened, soon you wont be able 
>> >> > > > to
>> >> > > > go
>> >> > > > anywhere :)
>>
>> >> > > I keep hearing this 'peak oil' nonsense.
>>
>> >> > so it will last forever ??
>>
>> >> > thats a relief.....
>>
>> >> The opponents of the peak oil theory don't think that oil will last
>> >> forever - only that there is unlikely to be a supply crunch in the
>> >> next few decades at roughly current rates of usage.  Obviously oil is
>> >> a finite resource.
>>
>> > you bet
>> >http://www.hubbertpeak.com/summary.htm
>>
>> As always,  suspect figures,  no account taken of the increase of
>> sustainable energy meaning ta drop in oil use.
>>
> show us your figures then ......
>

I don't need to.

I have the greed of the international oil companies to keep me warm...

-- 
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

"William Black"  wrote in message 
news:fbs63c$mqe$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>
> "hamsters revenge"  wrote in message 
> news:1189189976.726640.71730@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>> On 7 Sep, 18:55, "TMOliver" <tmoliverjr...@hot.rr.comFIX> wrote:
>>> "Jugdish"  wrote ...> On 7 Sep, 10:05, 
>>> "William Black"  wrote:
>>>
>>> >> I put more faith in human ingenuity than that.
>>>
>>> > hamsters ?
>>>
>>> Well, hamsters are critters with considerably more intelligence and
>>> imagination than you seem to possess, Jughead....
>>>
>>> I suppose that we could simply cease to explore for petroleum and 
>>> natural
>>> gas, overlooking hitherto unfound and "unproven" reserves (the same sort 
>>> as
>>> those discovered in the last few decades which have doubled previous
>>> estimates) and not find suitable and acceptable ways to drill for vast
>>> amounts of oil and gas already accessible - for example, part of a pool
>>> 15,000 feet underground beneath some land in East Texas in which I hold 
>>> a
>>> percentage of the "mineral rights", with drilling and production costs 
>>> still
>>> a bit above current market prices for natural gas,  and to not work to
>>> convince tree huggers that there's nothing any more sacred about oil 
>>> beneath
>>> ANWR or the Santa Barbara Channel than any other spot on the globe.
>>>
>>> ......and when all those chances are done, pools emptied and resaves 
>>> found
>>> and exploited, we could not bother squeeze oil from the tarry sands of
>>> Canada and Siberia.
>>>
>>> Meanwhile, in the same methodical fashion that scientific research has
>>> brought us incomparable and unmatched benefits in little more than our
>>> lifetimes, I suspect that ample alternatives already exists in the 
>>> fertile
>>> imaginations of those who work to find them, instead of, like you, 
>>> sitting
>>> around on the top wire croaking like the ravens of inevitable doom....
>>>
>>> TMO
>>
>> chew on this hamster lover :)
>> http://www.peakoil.net/Publications/PeakOilSpclOrder%2315TextCharts020806Low.pdf
>>
>
> Has there been a recent TV show about Peak Oil in the US this week?
>
> The air head tendency is rabbiting about little else...
>
> Look,  there's oceans of the stuff down there,  it just isn't economic to 
> dig it out yet.  It will be well before the price of oil gets anywhere 
> near the price of bottled water.

And how does it become economic to dig it up,

Oh the price goes up.

And on the way up (in price) it gets more expensive than
the alternative ways of producing engery which we are
currently avoiding because they are too expensive (but
the price of which won't go up).  So wnat happens the
alternative is cheaper so the oil is uneconomic and it
stays where it is.

(And when I *need* to buy bottled water it costs 17p
that is already less than oil)

tim

William Black wrote:
> "Jugdish"  wrote in message 
> news:1189151918.793735.150650@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> 
>>On 6 Sep, 22:43, "William Black"  wrote:
>>
>>>"Jugdish"  wrote in message
>>>
>>>news:1189107576.450663.64380@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>On 6 Sep, 20:40, "William Black"  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>"Jugdish"  wrote in message
>>>
>>>>>news:1189083451.114574.110300@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>>>>dont worry, peak oil has already happened, soon you wont be able to 
>>>>>>go
>>>>>>anywhere :)
>>>
>>>>>I keep hearing this 'peak oil' nonsense.
>>>
>>>>so it will last forever ??
>>>
>>>>thats a relief.....
>>>
>>>I imagine it'll see us both out.
>>>
>>>I also imagine they'll develop a system that doesn't use oil in the
>>>meantime,  walking to work is a great driver of ideas...
>>
>>imagine being the operative word

> So we're all going to die?
> 
> I put more faith in human ingenuity than that.

Ingenuity ot not the answer to your question is yes.  We are all going 
to die.

"William Black"  wrote...
>
> "TMOliver" <tmoliverjrFIX@hot.rr.comFIX> wrote in message 
> news:46e181f2$0$4076$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
>>for example, part of a pool 15,000 feet underground beneath some land in 
>>East Texas in which I hold a percentage of the "mineral rights", with 
>>drilling and production costs still a bit above current market prices for 
>>natural gas,
>
> You going to be rich Tom?
>

The odds are about 40/60, but if the pay sand down there at 15,000' (which 
takes about $5 million worth of drilling to reach) delivers at optimistic 
projections, various car dealers will simply leave chariots in my driveway 
for my delectation.  At worst, I'll get nothing.  Even a modestly productive 
well will bring a few thousand a month to me, and my share should increase 
from 1/25 to 1/20 in the next few years due to attrition and a strange 
partnership agreement made many years ago.

I receive one natural gas production payment now.  Back in 1990, it was  $38 
every three months.  It reached as high as $2,000 a month a couple of years 
ago, but has steadied at about $2,500 every three months, not much, but 
hardly to be sniffed at.  I'm no tycoon and unlikely to ever achieve Jet 
Rink status (and would still be too poor for the really fancy rooms at 
MDAnderson Cancer Center in Houston kept for the families of the Grand 
Sheikhs and Panjandrums from the Gulf), but one can dream.... (and if my 
ship comes in grandly, I promise to rent appropriate quarters and hold a 
grotesque display of food and drink in some London area dining room, there 
to summon a handful of intelligent well-read, better spoken and written 
UKians known to me by their occasional witty, once in a while wise and not 
too often ridiculous posts.   I do so swear and affirm!

TMO

"TMOliver" <tmoliverjrFIX@hot.rr.comFIX> wrote in message 
news:46e1d231$0$4110$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...

and if my
> ship comes in grandly, I promise to rent appropriate quarters and hold a 
> grotesque display of food and drink in some London area dining room, there 
> to summon a handful of intelligent well-read, better spoken and written 
> UKians known to me by their occasional witty, once in a while wise and not 
> too often ridiculous posts.   I do so swear and affirm!

That's very handsome of you.

Depending on your new income it'll either be the Cafe Royal for cocktails or 
The Blind Beggar for a pint of mild...

Both establishments are notable more for their clientele than their booze, 
and  both serve excellent booze.


-- 
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

"William Black"  wrote in message 
news:fbu4bn$p1q$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>
> "TMOliver" <tmoliverjrFIX@hot.rr.comFIX> wrote in message 
> news:46e1d231$0$4110$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
> and if my
>> ship comes in grandly, I promise to rent appropriate quarters and hold a 
>> grotesque display of food and drink in some London area dining room, 
>> there to summon a handful of intelligent well-read, better spoken and 
>> written UKians known to me by their occasional witty, once in a while 
>> wise and not too often ridiculous posts.   I do so swear and affirm!
>
> That's very handsome of you.
>
> Depending on your new income it'll either be the Cafe Royal for cocktails 
> or The Blind Beggar for a pint of mild...
>
> Both establishments are notable more for their clientele than their booze, 
> and  both serve excellent booze.
>
The Blind Beggar sounds a good choice.  Sharpen your quill and mark that 
down on my ledger...

TMO