The list of harm caused by mass car use seems to be growing ever
longer. Will it ever stop?

"...But equally foolish is the covering so much land with concrete and
tarmac - which prevents water soaking into the ground and allows it to
run off. Houses used to have decent-sized gardens, with grass and
exposed soil to mop up large quantities of rainwater. Now even
expensive houses are packed close together and what open ground
remains is taken up with hard standing for a couple of BMWs plus a
large patio for the barbecue..."

--
World Carfree Network
http://www.worldcarfree.net/
Help for your car-addicted friends in the U.K.

"Doug"  wrote in message 
news:71a8c820-65bc-4859-8534-43d856dbe721@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> The list of harm caused by mass car use seems to be growing ever
> longer. Will it ever stop?
>
> "...But equally foolish is the covering so much land with concrete and
> tarmac - which prevents water soaking into the ground and allows it to
> run off. Houses used to have decent-sized gardens, with grass and
> exposed soil to mop up large quantities of rainwater. Now even
> expensive houses are packed close together and what open ground
> remains is taken up with hard standing for a couple of BMWs plus a
> large patio for the barbecue..."

Another unattributed quote, Doug? Why should we take this seriously if you 
won't even tell us where it came from?

"Graculus"  gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

>> The list of harm caused by mass car use seems to be growing ever
>> longer. Will it ever stop?
>>
>> "...But equally foolish is the covering so much land with concrete and
>> tarmac - which prevents water soaking into the ground and allows it to
>> run off. Houses used to have decent-sized gardens, with grass and
>> exposed soil to mop up large quantities of rainwater. Now even
>> expensive houses are packed close together and what open ground remains
>> is taken up with hard standing for a couple of BMWs plus a large patio
>> for the barbecue..."

> Another unattributed quote, Doug? Why should we take this seriously if
> you won't even tell us where it came from?

What's even funnier, though, is that Duhg has spent years proclaiming 
that we all need to live in cities to be "green". Y'know, cities full of 
concrete...

On 8 Sep, 08:16, "Graculus" 
wrote:
> "Doug"  wrote in message
>
> news:71a8c820-65bc-4859-8534-43d856dbe721@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
> > The list of harm caused by mass car use seems to be growing ever
> > longer. Will it ever stop?
>
> > "...But equally foolish is the covering so much land with concrete and
> > tarmac - which prevents water soaking into the ground and allows it to
> > run off. Houses used to have decent-sized gardens, with grass and
> > exposed soil to mop up large quantities of rainwater. Now even
> > expensive houses are packed close together and what open ground
> > remains is taken up with hard standing for a couple of BMWs plus a
> > large patio for the barbecue..."
>
> Another unattributed quote, Doug? Why should we take this seriously if you
> won't even tell us where it came from?

I didn't realise that you and your motoring chums would be at all
interested in following this up and you would be more likely to spend
all of your time here devising new ways of dismissing it out of hand.

Here goes then:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article4698357.ece

--
World Carfree Network
http://www.worldcarfree.net/
Help for your car-addicted friends in the U.K.

On 8 Sep, 08:18, Adrian  wrote:
> "Graculus"  gurgled happily, sounding
> much like they were saying:
>
> >> The list of harm caused by mass car use seems to be growing ever
> >> longer. Will it ever stop?
>
> >> "...But equally foolish is the covering so much land with concrete and
> >> tarmac - which prevents water soaking into the ground and allows it to
> >> run off. Houses used to have decent-sized gardens, with grass and
> >> exposed soil to mop up large quantities of rainwater. Now even
> >> expensive houses are packed close together and what open ground remains
> >> is taken up with hard standing for a couple of BMWs plus a large patio
> >> for the barbecue..."
> > Another unattributed quote, Doug? Why should we take this seriously if
> > you won't even tell us where it came from?
>
> What's even funnier, though, is that Duhg has spent years proclaiming
> that we all need to live in cities to be "green". Y'know, cities full of
> concrete...

Well, obviously, cities are compact and allow more green spaces
elsewhere, assuming people with cars didn't try to fill up those green
spaces and concreted over their driveways, while demanding even more
new roads to access them.

--
World Carfree Network
http://www.worldcarfree.net/
Help for your car-addicted friends in the U.K.

"Doug"  wrote in message 
news:1107f446-95c2-46f5-ad4a-741dbf78fdba@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> On 8 Sep, 08:16, "Graculus" 
> wrote:
>> "Doug"  wrote in message
>>
>> news:71a8c820-65bc-4859-8534-43d856dbe721@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > The list of harm caused by mass car use seems to be growing ever
>> > longer. Will it ever stop?
>>
>> > "...But equally foolish is the covering so much land with concrete and
>> > tarmac - which prevents water soaking into the ground and allows it to
>> > run off. Houses used to have decent-sized gardens, with grass and
>> > exposed soil to mop up large quantities of rainwater. Now even
>> > expensive houses are packed close together and what open ground
>> > remains is taken up with hard standing for a couple of BMWs plus a
>> > large patio for the barbecue..."
>>
>> Another unattributed quote, Doug? Why should we take this seriously if 
>> you
>> won't even tell us where it came from?
>
> I didn't realise that you and your motoring chums would be at all
> interested in following this up and you would be more likely to spend
> all of your time here devising new ways of dismissing it out of hand.
>
> Here goes then:
>
> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article4698357.ece

Contrary to the experience of the author, I managed to get rid of flooding 
in my garden by laying hard surfacing. I used it to raise the ground level 
in that part of the garden by a few inches, which took it above the winter 
ground water level.

Colin Bignell

Doug  gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

> On 8 Sep, 08:18, Adrian  wrote:
>> "Graculus"  gurgled happily,
>> sounding much like they were saying:
>>
>> >> The list of harm caused by mass car use seems to be growing ever
>> >> longer. Will it ever stop?
>>
>> >> "...But equally foolish is the covering so much land with concrete
>> >> and tarmac - which prevents water soaking into the ground and allows
>> >> it to run off. Houses used to have decent-sized gardens, with grass
>> >> and exposed soil to mop up large quantities of rainwater. Now even
>> >> expensive houses are packed close together and what open ground
>> >> remains is taken up with hard standing for a couple of BMWs plus a
>> >> large patio for the barbecue..."
>> > Another unattributed quote, Doug? Why should we take this seriously
>> > if you won't even tell us where it came from?
>>
>> What's even funnier, though, is that Duhg has spent years proclaiming
>> that we all need to live in cities to be "green". Y'know, cities full
>> of concrete...
> 
> Well, obviously, cities are compact and allow more green spaces
> elsewhere, assuming people with cars didn't try to fill up those green
> spaces and concreted over their driveways, while demanding even more new
> roads to access them.

So what's going to happen with the rest of the surface area of the 
country, then?

It's obviously not going to be needed for grazing, since there won't be 
any farm animals.
It's obviously not going to be used for arable farming, since it's not 
possible to live on food grown in this country.
It's obviously not going to be economically viable to farm at all, since 
everybody's going to have to live in cities and won't be able to get out 
to the land to farm it, plus the farming will be back to medieval levels 
of productivity, due to the complete lack of mechanisation and automation.

So you want us all to live in concrete jungles, surrounded by overgrown 
scrubland and a desolate wasteland.

<light dawns>
Of course. You want us all to follow your lead.

On Sep 8, 7:47 am, Doug  wrote:
> The list of harm caused by mass car use seems to be growing ever
> longer. Will it ever stop?
>
> "...But equally foolish is the covering so much land with concrete and
> tarmac -

you know this idea you have of cramming everyone into tower blocks in
cities...

Oh never mind.

Fod

On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 23:47:58 -0700 (PDT), Doug 
wrote:

>The list of harm caused by mass car use seems to be growing ever
>longer.

"Mass car use" is a normal human activity.

> Will it ever stop?
>

Not in your time cinders.

>"...But equally foolish is the covering so much land with concrete and
>tarmac - which prevents water soaking into the ground and allows it to
>run off. Houses used to have decent-sized gardens, with grass and
>exposed soil to mop up large quantities of rainwater. Now even
>expensive houses are packed close together and what open ground
>remains is taken up with hard standing for a couple of BMWs plus a
>large patio for the barbecue..."

Blame Prescot, he was living in the pockets of the big builders.

Derek

In article <71a8c820-65bc-4859-8534-43d856dbe721
@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, Doug says...
> Now even
> expensive houses are packed close together 

But that's what you wanted so you could move more people into the 
cities...

-- 
Conor

I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't 
looking good either. - Scott Adams

"Doug"  wrote in message 
news:71a8c820-65bc-4859-8534-43d856dbe721@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> The list of harm caused by mass car use seems to be growing ever
> longer. Will it ever stop?
>
> "...But equally foolish is the covering so much land with concrete and
> tarmac - which prevents water soaking into the ground and allows it to
> run off. Houses used to have decent-sized gardens, with grass and
> exposed soil to mop up large quantities of rainwater. Now even
> expensive houses are packed close together and what open ground
> remains is taken up with hard standing for a couple of BMWs plus a
> large patio for the barbecue..."
>

That has nothing to do with the roads , and everything to do with developers 
wanting to cram houses in and planners letting them.

By contrast the amount of the land covered by roads themselves is tiny , and 
cramming houses in means less miles of roads rather than more

-- 
Alex

"I laugh in the face of danger , then I hide until it goes away"

www.drzoidberg.co.uk

"nightjar .me.uk>" <cpb@<insert my surname here> wrote in message 
news:uq6dnak_0NCDS1nVnZ2dnUVZ8jydnZ2d@giganews.com...
>
> "Doug"  wrote in message 
> news:1107f446-95c2-46f5-ad4a-741dbf78fdba@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>> On 8 Sep, 08:16, "Graculus" 
>> wrote:
>>> "Doug"  wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:71a8c820-65bc-4859-8534-43d856dbe721@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>> > The list of harm caused by mass car use seems to be growing ever
>>> > longer. Will it ever stop?
>>>
>>> > "...But equally foolish is the covering so much land with concrete and
>>> > tarmac - which prevents water soaking into the ground and allows it to
>>> > run off. Houses used to have decent-sized gardens, with grass and
>>> > exposed soil to mop up large quantities of rainwater. Now even
>>> > expensive houses are packed close together and what open ground
>>> > remains is taken up with hard standing for a couple of BMWs plus a
>>> > large patio for the barbecue..."
>>>
>>> Another unattributed quote, Doug? Why should we take this seriously if 
>>> you
>>> won't even tell us where it came from?
>>
>> I didn't realise that you and your motoring chums would be at all
>> interested in following this up and you would be more likely to spend
>> all of your time here devising new ways of dismissing it out of hand.
>>
>> Here goes then:
>>
>> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article4698357.ece
>
> Contrary to the experience of the author, I managed to get rid of flooding 
> in my garden by laying hard surfacing. I used it to raise the ground level 
> in that part of the garden by a few inches, which took it above the winter 
> ground water level.
>
My garden at my old house had a layer of clay about 6 inches below the 
topsoil.
The topsoil would soon saturate as the water couldn't drain so at the lowest 
part of the garden I dug a big pit down through the clay and filled it with 
stones and gravel.
This allowed water to get past the clay and into the good soil below and 
solved the flooding nicely,



-- 
Alex

"I laugh in the face of danger , then I hide until it goes away"

www.drzoidberg.co.uk

No.

On 8 Sep, 08:37, "nightjar" <cpb@<insert my surname here>.me.uk>
wrote:
> "Doug"  wrote in message
>
> news:1107f446-95c2-46f5-ad4a-741dbf78fdba@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On 8 Sep, 08:16, "Graculus" 
> > wrote:
> >> "Doug"  wrote in message
>
> >>news:71a8c820-65bc-4859-8534-43d856dbe721@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > The list of harm caused by mass car use seems to be growing ever
> >> > longer. Will it ever stop?
>
> >> > "...But equally foolish is the covering so much land with concrete and
> >> > tarmac - which prevents water soaking into the ground and allows it to
> >> > run off. Houses used to have decent-sized gardens, with grass and
> >> > exposed soil to mop up large quantities of rainwater. Now even
> >> > expensive houses are packed close together and what open ground
> >> > remains is taken up with hard standing for a couple of BMWs plus a
> >> > large patio for the barbecue..."
>
> >> Another unattributed quote, Doug? Why should we take this seriously if
> >> you
> >> won't even tell us where it came from?
>
> > I didn't realise that you and your motoring chums would be at all
> > interested in following this up and you would be more likely to spend
> > all of your time here devising new ways of dismissing it out of hand.
>
> > Here goes then:
>
> >http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributor...
>
> Contrary to the experience of the author, I managed to get rid of flooding
> in my garden by laying hard surfacing. I used it to raise the ground level
> in that part of the garden by a few inches, which took it above the winter
> ground water level.
>
The point you seem to be missing is that while improving your own
situation you have made it worse for others by increasing run-off.

--
World Carfree Network
http://www.worldcarfree.net/
Help for your car-addicted friends in the U.K.

Doug  gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

>> Contrary to the experience of the author, I managed to get rid of
>> flooding in my garden by laying hard surfacing. I used it to raise the
>> ground level in that part of the garden by a few inches, which took it
>> above the winter ground water level.

> The point you seem to be missing is that while improving your own
> situation you have made it worse for others by increasing run-off.

<adds "ground water" and "run-off" to the looooong list of concepts Duhg 
doesn't understand>

Adrian wrote:

> Doug  gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
> saying:
> 
>>> Contrary to the experience of the author, I managed to get rid of
>>> flooding in my garden by laying hard surfacing. I used it to raise the
>>> ground level in that part of the garden by a few inches, which took it
>>> above the winter ground water level.
> 
>> The point you seem to be missing is that while improving your own
>> situation you have made it worse for others by increasing run-off.
> 
> <adds "ground water" and "run-off" to the looooong list of concepts Duhg
> doesn't understand>

Quite.

"Doug"  wrote in message 
news:1107f446-95c2-46f5-ad4a-741dbf78fdba@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> On 8 Sep, 08:16, "Graculus" 
> wrote:
>> "Doug"  wrote in message
>>
>> news:71a8c820-65bc-4859-8534-43d856dbe721@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > The list of harm caused by mass car use seems to be growing ever
>> > longer. Will it ever stop?
>>
>> > "...But equally foolish is the covering so much land with concrete and
>> > tarmac - which prevents water soaking into the ground and allows it to
>> > run off. Houses used to have decent-sized gardens, with grass and
>> > exposed soil to mop up large quantities of rainwater. Now even
>> > expensive houses are packed close together and what open ground
>> > remains is taken up with hard standing for a couple of BMWs plus a
>> > large patio for the barbecue..."
>>
>> Another unattributed quote, Doug? Why should we take this seriously if 
>> you
>> won't even tell us where it came from?
>
> I didn't realise that you and your motoring chums

Not my chums. I don't even know any of the other people on this newsgroup, 
so describing any of them as chums is hardly appropriate.

"Doug"  wrote in message 
news:119e0b2f-65bc-434c-b26c-492778c4424a@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On 8 Sep, 08:37, "nightjar" <cpb@<insert my surname here>.me.uk>
> wrote:
>> "Doug"  wrote in message
>>
>> news:1107f446-95c2-46f5-ad4a-741dbf78fdba@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 8 Sep, 08:16, "Graculus" 
>> > wrote:
>> >> "Doug"  wrote in message
>>
>> >>news:71a8c820-65bc-4859-8534-43d856dbe721@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >> > The list of harm caused by mass car use seems to be growing ever
>> >> > longer. Will it ever stop?
>>
>> >> > "...But equally foolish is the covering so much land with concrete 
>> >> > and
>> >> > tarmac - which prevents water soaking into the ground and allows it 
>> >> > to
>> >> > run off. Houses used to have decent-sized gardens, with grass and
>> >> > exposed soil to mop up large quantities of rainwater. Now even
>> >> > expensive houses are packed close together and what open ground
>> >> > remains is taken up with hard standing for a couple of BMWs plus a
>> >> > large patio for the barbecue..."
>>
>> >> Another unattributed quote, Doug? Why should we take this seriously if
>> >> you
>> >> won't even tell us where it came from?
>>
>> > I didn't realise that you and your motoring chums would be at all
>> > interested in following this up and you would be more likely to spend
>> > all of your time here devising new ways of dismissing it out of hand.
>>
>> > Here goes then:
>>
>> >http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributor...
>>
>> Contrary to the experience of the author, I managed to get rid of 
>> flooding
>> in my garden by laying hard surfacing. I used it to raise the ground 
>> level
>> in that part of the garden by a few inches, which took it above the 
>> winter
>> ground water level.
>>
> The point you seem to be missing is that while improving your own
> situation you have made it worse for others by increasing run-off.

The point you are definitely missing is that, in my case, the water was 
rising out of the ground, not falling out of the sky. As the water table was 
above ground level, there wouldn't have been anywhere for rainfall to run 
off to. Therefore, the situation is neither better nor worse, except that I 
now don't have to walk through a shallow pond to get to the garage.

Colin Bignell

On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 23:47:58 -0700 (PDT), Doug put finger to keyboard
and typed:

>The list of harm caused by mass car use seems to be growing ever
>longer. Will it ever stop?
>
>"...But equally foolish is the covering so much land with concrete and
>tarmac - which prevents water soaking into the ground and allows it to
>run off. Houses used to have decent-sized gardens, with grass and
>exposed soil to mop up large quantities of rainwater. Now even
>expensive houses are packed close together and what open ground
>remains is taken up with hard standing for a couple of BMWs plus a
>large patio for the barbecue..."

That's not an argument against cars. That's an argument against
densely-packed urban living.

Mark
-- 
My rather pointless blog: http://mark.goodge.co.uk
My less pointless stuff: http://www.good-stuff.co.uk

On 8 Sep, 12:41, "Dr Zoidberg" <AlexNOOO!!!!!...@drzoidberg.co.uk>
wrote:
> "Doug"  wrote in message
>
> news:71a8c820-65bc-4859-8534-43d856dbe721@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
> > The list of harm caused by mass car use seems to be growing ever
> > longer. Will it ever stop?
>
> > "...But equally foolish is the covering so much land with concrete and
> > tarmac - which prevents water soaking into the ground and allows it to
> > run off. Houses used to have decent-sized gardens, with grass and
> > exposed soil to mop up large quantities of rainwater. Now even
> > expensive houses are packed close together and what open ground
> > remains is taken up with hard standing for a couple of BMWs plus a
> > large patio for the barbecue..."
>
> That has nothing to do with the roads , and everything to do with developers
> wanting to cram houses in and planners letting them.
>
> By contrast the amount of the land covered by roads themselves is tiny , and
> cramming houses in means less miles of roads rather than more
>
I'd hardly call motorways 'tiny' and it all adds to flooding, as do
car parks and front gardens turned into car parks.

--
World Carfree Network
http://www.worldcarfree.net/
Help for your car-addicted friends in the U.K.

On 8 Sep, 20:14, "nightjar" <cpb@<insert my surname here>.me.uk>
wrote:
> "Doug"  wrote in message
>
> news:119e0b2f-65bc-434c-b26c-492778c4424a@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On 8 Sep, 08:37, "nightjar" <cpb@<insert my surname here>.me.uk>
> > wrote:
> >> "Doug"  wrote in message
>
> >>news:1107f446-95c2-46f5-ad4a-741dbf78fdba@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > On 8 Sep, 08:16, "Graculus" 
> >> > wrote:
> >> >> "Doug"  wrote in message
>
> >> >>news:71a8c820-65bc-4859-8534-43d856dbe721@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> >> > The list of harm caused by mass car use seems to be growing ever
> >> >> > longer. Will it ever stop?
>
> >> >> > "...But equally foolish is the covering so much land with concrete
> >> >> > and
> >> >> > tarmac - which prevents water soaking into the ground and allows it
> >> >> > to
> >> >> > run off. Houses used to have decent-sized gardens, with grass and
> >> >> > exposed soil to mop up large quantities of rainwater. Now even
> >> >> > expensive houses are packed close together and what open ground
> >> >> > remains is taken up with hard standing for a couple of BMWs plus a
> >> >> > large patio for the barbecue..."
>
> >> >> Another unattributed quote, Doug? Why should we take this seriously if
> >> >> you
> >> >> won't even tell us where it came from?
>
> >> > I didn't realise that you and your motoring chums would be at all
> >> > interested in following this up and you would be more likely to spend
> >> > all of your time here devising new ways of dismissing it out of hand.
>
> >> > Here goes then:
>
> >> >http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributor...
>
> >> Contrary to the experience of the author, I managed to get rid of
> >> flooding
> >> in my garden by laying hard surfacing. I used it to raise the ground
> >> level
> >> in that part of the garden by a few inches, which took it above the
> >> winter
> >> ground water level.
>
> > The point you seem to be missing is that while improving your own
> > situation you have made it worse for others by increasing run-off.
>
> The point you are definitely missing is that, in my case, the water was
> rising out of the ground, not falling out of the sky. As the water table was
> above ground level, there wouldn't have been anywhere for rainfall to run
> off to. Therefore, the situation is neither better nor worse, except that I
> now don't have to walk through a shallow pond to get to the garage.
>
The 'shallow pond' is on your property instead of being diverted onto
that of someone else. Has it also occurred to you that water might be
rising out of your ground because someone else is diverting it to you?

--
World Carfree Network
http://www.worldcarfree.net/
Help for your car-addicted friends in the U.K.

Doug  gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

> Has it also occurred to you that water might be
> rising out of your ground because someone else is diverting it to you?

Oi, God, y'fucker. Sort your drainage problem out!

Doug wrote:
> On 8 Sep, 12:41, "Dr Zoidberg" <AlexNOOO!!!!!...@drzoidberg.co.uk>
> wrote:
>> "Doug"  wrote in message
>>
>> news:71a8c820-65bc-4859-8534-43d856dbe721@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>> The list of harm caused by mass car use seems to be growing ever
>>> longer. Will it ever stop?
>>
>>> "...But equally foolish is the covering so much land with concrete
>>> and tarmac - which prevents water soaking into the ground and
>>> allows it to run off. Houses used to have decent-sized gardens,
>>> with grass and exposed soil to mop up large quantities of
>>> rainwater. Now even expensive houses are packed close together and
>>> what open ground remains is taken up with hard standing for a
>>> couple of BMWs plus a large patio for the barbecue..."
>>
>> That has nothing to do with the roads , and everything to do with
>> developers wanting to cram houses in and planners letting them.
>>
>> By contrast the amount of the land covered by roads themselves is
>> tiny , and cramming houses in means less miles of roads rather than
>> more
>>
> I'd hardly call motorways 'tiny' and it all adds to flooding, as do
> car parks and front gardens turned into car parks.

How do you turn a car park into a car park Doug?

"Doug"  wrote in message 
news:82f95e9f-e780-49f2-bb72-900eaab88281@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
> On 8 Sep, 20:14, "nightjar" <cpb@<insert my surname here>.me.uk>
> wrote:
>> "Doug"  wrote in message
>>
>> news:119e0b2f-65bc-434c-b26c-492778c4424a@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 8 Sep, 08:37, "nightjar" <cpb@<insert my surname here>.me.uk>
>> > wrote:
>> >> "Doug"  wrote in message
>>
>> >>news:1107f446-95c2-46f5-ad4a-741dbf78fdba@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >> > On 8 Sep, 08:16, "Graculus" 
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> "Doug"  wrote in message
>>
>> >> >>news:71a8c820-65bc-4859-8534-43d856dbe721@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >> >> > The list of harm caused by mass car use seems to be growing ever
>> >> >> > longer. Will it ever stop?
>>
>> >> >> > "...But equally foolish is the covering so much land with 
>> >> >> > concrete
>> >> >> > and
>> >> >> > tarmac - which prevents water soaking into the ground and allows 
>> >> >> > it
>> >> >> > to
>> >> >> > run off. Houses used to have decent-sized gardens, with grass and
>> >> >> > exposed soil to mop up large quantities of rainwater. Now even
>> >> >> > expensive houses are packed close together and what open ground
>> >> >> > remains is taken up with hard standing for a couple of BMWs plus 
>> >> >> > a
>> >> >> > large patio for the barbecue..."
>>
>> >> >> Another unattributed quote, Doug? Why should we take this seriously 
>> >> >> if
>> >> >> you
>> >> >> won't even tell us where it came from?
>>
>> >> > I didn't realise that you and your motoring chums would be at all
>> >> > interested in following this up and you would be more likely to 
>> >> > spend
>> >> > all of your time here devising new ways of dismissing it out of 
>> >> > hand.
>>
>> >> > Here goes then:
>>
>> >> >http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributor...
>>
>> >> Contrary to the experience of the author, I managed to get rid of
>> >> flooding
>> >> in my garden by laying hard surfacing. I used it to raise the ground
>> >> level
>> >> in that part of the garden by a few inches, which took it above the
>> >> winter
>> >> ground water level.
>>
>> > The point you seem to be missing is that while improving your own
>> > situation you have made it worse for others by increasing run-off.
>>
>> The point you are definitely missing is that, in my case, the water was
>> rising out of the ground, not falling out of the sky. As the water table 
>> was
>> above ground level, there wouldn't have been anywhere for rainfall to run
>> off to. Therefore, the situation is neither better nor worse, except that 
>> I
>> now don't have to walk through a shallow pond to get to the garage.
>>
> The 'shallow pond' is on your property instead of being diverted onto
> that of someone else.

The water has not been diverted anywhere. Dig a pit down to the original 
soil level anytime from about November to February and it will fill with 
water. The only difference the work has made is that the ground is now 
several inches higher, so the water no longer gets above the ground.

> Has it also occurred to you that water might be
> rising out of your ground because someone else is diverting it to you?

Has it occurred to you that you are talking through your hat? If anything, 
more, properly drained, hard surfacing would reduce the problem. I live on a 
well-protected flood plain and part of that protection is a pumping station 
that removes surface water run-off through a network of large drain pipes. 
The water rising out of my garden is the result of the water that did not 
run off soaking into the surrounding ground and raising the water table.

Colin Bignell

On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 23:01:46 -0700 (PDT), Doug 
wrote:

>I'd hardly call motorways 'tiny'

They are a tiny proportion of the surface area of the UK. Seen from an
aeroplane they are just scratchmarks, and by and large they are all
properly drained.

>and it all adds to flooding, as do car parks and front gardens turned
>into car parks.

After 2 or 3 days heavy rain the soil can't absorb any more water
anyway and behaves just like concrete or tarmac as far as any more
rain is concerned. 

Derek

Doug  wrote:

> The list of harm caused by mass car use seems to be growing ever
> longer. Will it ever stop?

Complete shite on every level. "Perpetual" roadbuilding doesn't exist.
The "list of harm" is not "growing ever longer" and it doesn't need to
stop because it doesn't exist in the way that you portray it.

Derek  gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying:

>>I'd hardly call motorways 'tiny'

> They are a tiny proportion of the surface area of the UK. Seen from an
> aeroplane they are just scratchmarks, 

There's about 2,000 miles (3,200km) of motorway in the UK, and another 
4,500 miles (7,200km) of non-motorway trunk route.

If we assume an average of three lanes each way, and an average width of 
3m per lane, same for the reservation and shoulders, that's 27m for the 
motorway itself, call it 30m average including verges etc. For the non-
m'way trunks, we'll assume two lanes plus reservation is the average - so 
that's 18m for the road, call it 20m total.

I make that a grand total of 96 km2 for motorways and 144km2 for the rest 
of the trunk route network. So 240km2 for the total trunk route road 
infrastructure of the country - which, total, is 241,590km2.

1/10 of one percent. One thousandth of the land area of the country is 
covered by trunk roads - about one third of which is motorway.

Greater London, by contrast, is 1,600 km2.
Greater Manchester is 1,300km2
Inner London is 310km2
Birmingham is 270km2

This country has an average population density of 248 people per km2 - so 
if the motorways were populated to that average density, we'd be able to 
fit 60,000 more people in - roughly half the population of Slough. That's 
one person standing on the hard shoulder of the motorway every 53 metres.

On 9 Sep, 08:59, "nightjar" <cpb@<insert my surname here>.me.uk>
wrote:
> "Doug"  wrote in message
>
> news:82f95e9f-e780-49f2-bb72-900eaab88281@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On 8 Sep, 20:14, "nightjar" <cpb@<insert my surname here>.me.uk>
> > wrote:
> >> "Doug"  wrote in message
>
> >>news:119e0b2f-65bc-434c-b26c-492778c4424a@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > On 8 Sep, 08:37, "nightjar" <cpb@<insert my surname here>.me.uk>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >> "Doug"  wrote in message
>
> >> >>news:1107f446-95c2-46f5-ad4a-741dbf78fdba@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> >> > On 8 Sep, 08:16, "Graculus" 
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >> "Doug"  wrote in message
>
> >> >> >>news:71a8c820-65bc-4859-8534-43d856dbe721@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> >> >> > The list of harm caused by mass car use seems to be growing ever
> >> >> >> > longer. Will it ever stop?
>
> >> >> >> > "...But equally foolish is the covering so much land with
> >> >> >> > concrete
> >> >> >> > and
> >> >> >> > tarmac - which prevents water soaking into the ground and allows
> >> >> >> > it
> >> >> >> > to
> >> >> >> > run off. Houses used to have decent-sized gardens, with grass and
> >> >> >> > exposed soil to mop up large quantities of rainwater. Now even
> >> >> >> > expensive houses are packed close together and what open ground
> >> >> >> > remains is taken up with hard standing for a couple of BMWs plus
> >> >> >> > a
> >> >> >> > large patio for the barbecue..."
>
> >> >> >> Another unattributed quote, Doug? Why should we take this seriously
> >> >> >> if
> >> >> >> you
> >> >> >> won't even tell us where it came from?
>
> >> >> > I didn't realise that you and your motoring chums would be at all
> >> >> > interested in following this up and you would be more likely to
> >> >> > spend
> >> >> > all of your time here devising new ways of dismissing it out of
> >> >> > hand.
>
> >> >> > Here goes then:
>
> >> >> >http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributor...
>
> >> >> Contrary to the experience of the author, I managed to get rid of
> >> >> flooding
> >> >> in my garden by laying hard surfacing. I used it to raise the ground
> >> >> level
> >> >> in that part of the garden by a few inches, which took it above the
> >> >> winter
> >> >> ground water level.
>
> >> > The point you seem to be missing is that while improving your own
> >> > situation you have made it worse for others by increasing run-off.
>
> >> The point you are definitely missing is that, in my case, the water was
> >> rising out of the ground, not falling out of the sky. As the water table
> >> was
> >> above ground level, there wouldn't have been anywhere for rainfall to run
> >> off to. Therefore, the situation is neither better nor worse, except that
> >> I
> >> now don't have to walk through a shallow pond to get to the garage.
>
> > The 'shallow pond' is on your property instead of being diverted onto
> > that of someone else.
>
> The water has not been diverted anywhere. Dig a pit down to the original
> soil level anytime from about November to February and it will fill with
> water. The only difference the work has made is that the ground is now
> several inches higher, so the water no longer gets above the ground.
>
> > Has it also occurred to you that water might be
> > rising out of your ground because someone else is diverting it to you?
>
> Has it occurred to you that you are talking through your hat? If anything,
> more, properly drained, hard surfacing would reduce the problem. I live on a
> well-protected flood plain and part of that protection is a pumping station
> that removes surface water run-off through a network of large drain pipes.
> The water rising out of my garden is the result of the water that did not
> run off soaking into the surrounding ground and raising the water table.
>
That is because there is not enough area of porous ground available to
absorb the water due to widespread non-porous surfacing, such as in
your garden, and to which perpetual roadbuilding contributes. Our old
drains are no longer big enough to contain the increased run-off due
to hard surfacing, that is why your garden is flooding.

--
UK Radical Campaigns
www.zing.icom43.net
One man's garden is another man's flooding.

On 9 Sep, 10:13, Derek  wrote:
> On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 23:01:46 -0700 (PDT), Doug 
> wrote:
>
> >I'd hardly call motorways 'tiny'
>
> They are a tiny proportion of the surface area of the UK. Seen from an
> aeroplane they are just scratchmarks, and by and large they are all
> properly drained.
>
Drained to where?
>
> >and it all adds to flooding, as do car parks and front gardens turned
> >into car parks.
>
> After 2 or 3 days heavy rain the soil can't absorb any more water
> anyway and behaves just like concrete or tarmac as far as any more
> rain is concerned.
>
But if there was a larger soil area, as there used to be, it could
contain more water.

--
UK Radical Campaigns
www.zing.icom43.net
One man's road is another man's flooding.

Doug  gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

>> Has it occurred to you that you are talking through your hat? If
>> anything, more, properly drained, hard surfacing would reduce the
>> problem. I live on a well-protected flood plain and part of that
>> protection is a pumping station that removes surface water run-off
>> through a network of large drain pipes. The water rising out of my
>> garden is the result of the water that did not run off soaking into the
>> surrounding ground and raising the water table.

> That is because there is not enough area of porous ground available to
> absorb the water due to widespread non-porous surfacing, such as in your
> garden, and to which perpetual roadbuilding contributes. Our old drains
> are no longer big enough to contain the increased run-off due to hard
> surfacing, that is why your garden is flooding.

Which part of "flood plain" are you failing to comprehend, you cretin?

The fundamental problem is that the ever-increasing demand for property 
within urban areas has led to building on unsuitable land - land that was 
previously NOT built on precisely because IT IS, AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN, 
LOWER THAN THE WATER TABLE SO FLOODS NATURALLY.

On Tue, 9 Sep 2008 03:24:36 -0700 (PDT), Doug 
wrote:

>On 9 Sep, 10:13, Derek  wrote:
>> On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 23:01:46 -0700 (PDT), Doug 
>> wrote:
>>
>> >I'd hardly call motorways 'tiny'
>>
>> They are a tiny proportion of the surface area of the UK. Seen from an
>> aeroplane they are just scratchmarks, and by and large they are all
>> properly drained.
>>
>Drained to where?

Ultimately the sea.

>>
>> >and it all adds to flooding, as do car parks and front gardens turned
>> >into car parks.
>>
>> After 2 or 3 days heavy rain the soil can't absorb any more water
>> anyway and behaves just like concrete or tarmac as far as any more
>> rain is concerned.
>>
>But if there was a larger soil area, as there used to be,

Before Sir Cornelious Vermuyden drained Yorkshire, Lincolnshire, and
Nottinghamshire you mean?

When the Fens and the Somerset levels etc were uninhabitable bogs? 

http://www.bahs.org.uk/01n1a4.pdf.

>It could contain more water.

We prefer properly drained land put to agriculture and human
habitation and the water dumped in the sea.

derek

Doug  wrote:

> That is because there is not enough area of porous ground available to
> absorb the water due to widespread non-porous surfacing, such as in
> your garden, and to which perpetual roadbuilding contributes. Our old
> drains are no longer big enough to contain the increased run-off due
> to hard surfacing, that is why your garden is flooding.

Masterly diagnosis at a distance. Why does my garden flood, Duhg?

I'll give you a clue, everything you typed above is bollocks, so you'll
have to think of some other reason. I'll start a clock on how long I
have to wait for an answer. Should I calibrate it in months, years or
decades?

Doug  wrote:

> But if there was a larger soil area, as there used to be, it could
> contain more water.

Do you get all your pre-digested opinons from the Mail and BBC News?

Doug wrote:
> On 9 Sep, 08:59, "nightjar" <cpb@<insert my surname here>.me.uk>
> wrote:
>> Has it occurred to you that you are talking through your hat? If
>> anything, more, properly drained, hard surfacing would reduce the
>> problem. I live on a well-protected flood plain and part of that
>> protection is a pumping station that removes surface water run-off
>> through a network of large drain pipes. The water rising out of my
>> garden is the result of the water that did not run off soaking into
>> the surrounding ground and raising the water table.
>>
> That is because there is not enough area of porous ground available to
> absorb the water due to widespread non-porous surfacing, such as in
> your garden, and to which perpetual roadbuilding contributes. Our old
> drains are no longer big enough to contain the increased run-off due
> to hard surfacing, that is why your garden is flooding.

So nothing to do with clay under the topsoil then Doug?

Doug wrote:
> On 9 Sep, 10:13, Derek  wrote:
>> On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 23:01:46 -0700 (PDT), Doug 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I'd hardly call motorways 'tiny'
>>
>> They are a tiny proportion of the surface area of the UK. Seen from
>> an aeroplane they are just scratchmarks, and by and large they are
>> all properly drained.
>>
> Drained to where?
>>
>>> and it all adds to flooding, as do car parks and front gardens
>>> turned into car parks.
>>
>> After 2 or 3 days heavy rain the soil can't absorb any more water
>> anyway and behaves just like concrete or tarmac as far as any more
>> rain is concerned.
>>
> But if there was a larger soil area, as there used to be, it could
> contain more water.

So are you suggesting that we return all the roads to dirt tracks and knock 
down all the buildings and their surround hard areas?

What happend to your Master Plan that we should all live in cities Doug?

"Doug"  wrote in message 
news:5b9955c3-2241-4c70-9354-97bdb4f49c5e@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On 9 Sep, 08:59, "nightjar" <cpb@<insert my surname here>.me.uk>
> wrote:
>> "Doug"  wrote in message
>>
>> news:82f95e9f-e780-49f2-bb72-900eaab88281@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 8 Sep, 20:14, "nightjar" <cpb@<insert my surname here>.me.uk>
>> > wrote:
>> >> "Doug"  wrote in message
>>
>> >>news:119e0b2f-65bc-434c-b26c-492778c4424a@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >> > On 8 Sep, 08:37, "nightjar" <cpb@<insert my surname here>.me.uk>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> "Doug"  wrote in message
>>
>> >> >>news:1107f446-95c2-46f5-ad4a-741dbf78fdba@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >> >> > On 8 Sep, 08:16, "Graculus" 
>> >> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> >> "Doug"  wrote in message
>>
>> >> >> >>news:71a8c820-65bc-4859-8534-43d856dbe721@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >> >> >> > The list of harm caused by mass car use seems to be growing 
>> >> >> >> > ever
>> >> >> >> > longer. Will it ever stop?
>>
>> >> >> >> > "...But equally foolish is the covering so much land with
>> >> >> >> > concrete
>> >> >> >> > and
>> >> >> >> > tarmac - which prevents water soaking into the ground and 
>> >> >> >> > allows
>> >> >> >> > it
>> >> >> >> > to
>> >> >> >> > run off. Houses used to have decent-sized gardens, with grass 
>> >> >> >> > and
>> >> >> >> > exposed soil to mop up large quantities of rainwater. Now even
>> >> >> >> > expensive houses are packed close together and what open 
>> >> >> >> > ground
>> >> >> >> > remains is taken up with hard standing for a couple of BMWs 
>> >> >> >> > plus
>> >> >> >> > a
>> >> >> >> > large patio for the barbecue..."
>>
>> >> >> >> Another unattributed quote, Doug? Why should we take this 
>> >> >> >> seriously
>> >> >> >> if
>> >> >> >> you
>> >> >> >> won't even tell us where it came from?
>>
>> >> >> > I didn't realise that you and your motoring chums would be at all
>> >> >> > interested in following this up and you would be more likely to
>> >> >> > spend
>> >> >> > all of your time here devising new ways of dismissing it out of
>> >> >> > hand.
>>
>> >> >> > Here goes then:
>>
>> >> >> >http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributor...
>>
>> >> >> Contrary to the experience of the author, I managed to get rid of
>> >> >> flooding
>> >> >> in my garden by laying hard surfacing. I used it to raise the 
>> >> >> ground
>> >> >> level
>> >> >> in that part of the garden by a few inches, which took it above the
>> >> >> winter
>> >> >> ground water level.
>>
>> >> > The point you seem to be missing is that while improving your own
>> >> > situation you have made it worse for others by increasing run-off.
>>
>> >> The point you are definitely missing is that, in my case, the water 
>> >> was
>> >> rising out of the ground, not falling out of the sky. As the water 
>> >> table
>> >> was
>> >> above ground level, there wouldn't have been anywhere for rainfall to 
>> >> run
>> >> off to. Therefore, the situation is neither better nor worse, except 
>> >> that
>> >> I
>> >> now don't have to walk through a shallow pond to get to the garage.
>>
>> > The 'shallow pond' is on your property instead of being diverted onto
>> > that of someone else.
>>
>> The water has not been diverted anywhere. Dig a pit down to the original
>> soil level anytime from about November to February and it will fill with
>> water. The only difference the work has made is that the ground is now
>> several inches higher, so the water no longer gets above the ground.
>>
>> > Has it also occurred to you that water might be
>> > rising out of your ground because someone else is diverting it to you?
>>
>> Has it occurred to you that you are talking through your hat? If 
>> anything,
>> more, properly drained, hard surfacing would reduce the problem. I live 
>> on a
>> well-protected flood plain and part of that protection is a pumping 
>> station
>> that removes surface water run-off through a network of large drain 
>> pipes.
>> The water rising out of my garden is the result of the water that did not
>> run off soaking into the surrounding ground and raising the water table.
>>
> That is because there is not enough area of porous ground available to
> absorb the water due to widespread non-porous surfacing, such as in
> your garden,

Totally wrong. There is plenty of porous ground available, both in other 
parts of my garden and in nearby fields. The problems is that the water that 
soaks into the porous ground raises the water table, which then overflows 
and either comes above ground level as small ponds, as used to happen in my 
garden, or appears as natural springs, as happens in my neighbour's garden.

> and to which perpetual roadbuilding contributes. Our old
> drains are no longer big enough to contain the increased run-off due
> to hard surfacing, that is why your garden is flooding.

My garden is no longer flooding - I raised the area that used to flood. The 
drains around here are also perfectly adequate, as is the pumping station 
they feed. The problem is that not enough rain ends up in the surface water 
drains. It soaks into the ground and raises the water table instead.

Colin Bignell