It is good that fuel for harmful cars is now being more realistically
priced but there is still a way to go.

"Motorists are facing further pain after a warning yesterday that the
latest surge in crude oil prices to record highs could add another 20p
to a litre at the pumps within weeks.

The forecast, from the Institute of Advanced Motorists (IAM), came as
new figures showed car sales falling in the face of high fuel prices
and collapsing consumer confidence.

Fuel prices set yet another record yesterday at the pumps, rising to
an average of 119p for unleaded petrol and 132.4p for diesel,
according to the IAM Motoring Trust, which monitors pump prices daily.
Further rises are also on their way.

IAM's technical director, Tim Shallcross, said the surge in oil prices
in recent days to fresh records above $146 a barrel had yet to feed
through to the pumps. "If crude prices stay around their current
level, we could well see another 20p on a litre over the coming
month," he said..."

More:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/jul/05/oil.automotive

--
World Carfree Network
http://www.worldcarfree.net/
Help for your car-addicted friends in the U.K.

On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 23:51:04 -0700 (PDT), Doug put finger to keyboard
and typed:

>It is good that fuel for harmful cars is now being more realistically
>priced but there is still a way to go.

Given that the majority of the pump price of petrol is tax, and you
claim to be an anarchist, how can you possibly call the price
"realistic?" The underlying value may be, but the price actually paid
is almost entirely an artifact of government policy.

Mark

"Mark Goodge"  wrote in message 
news:0c8u641v59am57t6oqig9rc4p89khtfis3@news.markshouse.net...
> On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 23:51:04 -0700 (PDT), Doug put finger to keyboard
> and typed:
>
>>It is good that fuel for harmful cars is now being more realistically
>>priced but there is still a way to go.
>
> Given that the majority of the pump price of petrol is tax, and you
> claim to be an anarchist, how can you possibly call the price
> "realistic?" The underlying value may be, but the price actually paid
> is almost entirely an artifact of government policy.

Duty is 51p , VAT is 18p on a litre of unleaded at £1.20

Hardly "almost entirely" the result of government policy , and the recent 
30p rise has been because of the change in oil prices and not because of tax 
changes.
Duty was put up by 2p in about september last year and that's it.




-- 
Alex

"I laugh in the face of danger , then I hide until it goes away"

www.drzoidberg.co.uk

On 5 Jul, 08:25, Mark Goodge  wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 23:51:04 -0700 (PDT), Doug put finger to keyboard
> and typed:
>
> >It is good that fuel for harmful cars is now being more realistically
> >priced but there is still a way to go.
>
> Given that the majority of the pump price of petrol is tax, and you
> claim to be an anarchist, how can you possibly call the price
> "realistic?" The underlying value may be, but the price actually paid
> is almost entirely an artifact of government policy.
>
The tax, like many taxes, is a deterrent, in this case to frivolous
hypermobility and unnecessary pollution. Many motorists could, if they
so chose, could drive around in much smaller cars or leave their car
at home much more than they do and thus avoid much of the tax. Some
could go as far as changing their lifestyles to remove for good their
pitiful car addiction and need for payment of the tax.

--
World Carfree Network
http://www.worldcarfree.net/
Help for your car-addicted friends in the U.K.

On 5 Jul, 08:32, Doug  wrote:
> On 5 Jul, 08:25, Mark Goodge  wrote:> On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 23:51:04 -0700 (PDT), Doug put finger to keyboard
> > and typed:
>
> > >It is good that fuel for harmful cars is now being more realistically
> > >priced but there is still a way to go.
>
> > Given that the majority of the pump price of petrol is tax, and you
> > claim to be an anarchist, how can you possibly call the price
> > "realistic?" The underlying value may be, but the price actually paid
> > is almost entirely an artifact of government policy.
>
> The tax, like many taxes, is a deterrent, in this case to frivolous
> hypermobility and unnecessary pollution. Many motorists could, if they
> so chose, could drive around in much smaller cars or leave their car
> at home much more than they do and thus avoid much of the tax. Some
> could go as far as changing their lifestyles to remove for good their
> pitiful car addiction and need for payment of the tax.

Tee hee.  An "anarchist" who is in favour of taxation.  You *really*
are a retard, aren't you Gollum?

On 5 jul, 09:32, Doug  wrote:


> pitiful car addiction
>
> --
> World Carfree Networkhttp://www.worldcarfree.net/
> Help for your car-addicted friends in the U.K.

AFAICS you are in a tiny minority doing the pitying, the overwhelming
majority find car a car a useful and fulfilling aspect to their lives,
only those with no comprehension of modern lifestyle would label car
ownership an addiction, such rhetoric weakens your cause by making you
look stupid, so keep it up.
NM

Doug wrote:
> On 5 Jul, 08:25, Mark Goodge  wrote:
>> On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 23:51:04 -0700 (PDT), Doug put finger to keyboard
>> and typed:
>>
>>> It is good that fuel for harmful cars is now being more realistically
>>> priced but there is still a way to go.
>> Given that the majority of the pump price of petrol is tax, and you
>> claim to be an anarchist, how can you possibly call the price
>> "realistic?" The underlying value may be, but the price actually paid
>> is almost entirely an artifact of government policy.
>>
> The tax, like many taxes, is a deterrent, in this case to frivolous
> hypermobility and unnecessary pollution. Many motorists could, if they
> so chose, could drive around in much smaller cars or leave their car
> at home much more than they do and thus avoid much of the tax. Some
> could go as far as changing their lifestyles to remove for good their
> pitiful car addiction and need for payment of the tax.

It may be justified by TPTB as a deterrent now but it didn't start off 
that way. It was a way to raise money to pay for transport improvements. 
The last time anyone called for duty to be lowered however, your 
favourite (?) politician said "which school or hospital do you want to 
close then?" demonstrating that motoring in general was now a cash cow 
for all other activities.


-- 
John Wright

"What would happen if you eliminated the autism genes from the gene pool?

You would have a bunch of people standing around in a cave, chatting and
socialising and not getting anything done!" - Professor Temple Grandin

On Sat, 5 Jul 2008 00:32:42 -0700 (PDT), Doug put finger to keyboard
and typed:

>On 5 Jul, 08:25, Mark Goodge  wrote:
>> On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 23:51:04 -0700 (PDT), Doug put finger to keyboard
>> and typed:
>>
>> >It is good that fuel for harmful cars is now being more realistically
>> >priced but there is still a way to go.
>>
>> Given that the majority of the pump price of petrol is tax, and you
>> claim to be an anarchist, how can you possibly call the price
>> "realistic?" The underlying value may be, but the price actually paid
>> is almost entirely an artifact of government policy.
>>
>The tax, like many taxes, is a deterrent, in this case to frivolous
>hypermobility and unnecessary pollution. 

Right. So it's an artificial imposition in order to pursue policy
ends. I'm glad you now realise that your original statement was, in
fact, false.

Mark

On Sat, 5 Jul 2008 08:32:27 +0100, Dr Zoidberg put finger to keyboard
and typed:

>"Mark Goodge"  wrote in message 
>news:0c8u641v59am57t6oqig9rc4p89khtfis3@news.markshouse.net...
>> On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 23:51:04 -0700 (PDT), Doug put finger to keyboard
>> and typed:
>>
>>>It is good that fuel for harmful cars is now being more realistically
>>>priced but there is still a way to go.
>>
>> Given that the majority of the pump price of petrol is tax, and you
>> claim to be an anarchist, how can you possibly call the price
>> "realistic?" The underlying value may be, but the price actually paid
>> is almost entirely an artifact of government policy.
>
>Duty is 51p , VAT is 18p on a litre of unleaded at £1.20
>
>Hardly "almost entirely" the result of government policy , and the recent 
>30p rise has been because of the change in oil prices and not because of tax 
>changes.
>Duty was put up by 2p in about september last year and that's it.

The point is that the level of tax makes the pump price almost
entirely under the control of the government. It's not like the price
of, say, cabbages or plasma screen TVs, where the government has
little room for manouevre in altering the tax rate. The government
could, if it wanted, halve the price of petrol simply by adjusting the
level of tax. Or it could double it. Or anything in between, including
holding the pump price level or at around the general RPI. Obviously,
controlling the pump price in such a way as to reduce the effect of
underlying oil price rises would affect government revenue, which is
the main reason why it isn't done. But they could very easily do it if
there was sufficient political will.

It's interesting, too, to note that the goverment appears to accept
that the pump price is too high, but wants the oil producers to take
responsibility for lowering it by reducing their price[1]. As well as
demonstrating that the government cares more about protecting revenue
than meeting the needs of consumers (if they agree that the price is
too high, then why not do something about it rather than passing the
buck?), it also gives the lie to claims by the likes of Duhg that high
prices are about discouraging hypermobility (because if they were,
then the government wouldn't want prices reduced at all).

[1] E.g, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7467151.stm

Mark

In message 
, 
BrianW  writes
>On 5 Jul, 08:32, Doug  wrote:
>> On 5 Jul, 08:25, Mark Goodge  
>>wrote:> On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 23:51:04 -0700 (PDT), Doug put finger to 
>>keyboard
>> > and typed:
>>
>> > >It is good that fuel for harmful cars is now being more realistically
>> > >priced but there is still a way to go.
>>
>> > Given that the majority of the pump price of petrol is tax, and you
>> > claim to be an anarchist, how can you possibly call the price
>> > "realistic?" The underlying value may be, but the price actually paid
>> > is almost entirely an artifact of government policy.
>>
>> The tax, like many taxes, is a deterrent, in this case to frivolous
>> hypermobility and unnecessary pollution. Many motorists could, if they
>> so chose, could drive around in much smaller cars or leave their car
>> at home much more than they do and thus avoid much of the tax. Some
>> could go as far as changing their lifestyles to remove for good their
>> pitiful car addiction and need for payment of the tax.
>
>Tee hee.  An "anarchist" who is in favour of taxation.  You *really*
>are a retard, aren't you Gollum?

And, even funnier, an "anarchist" who applauds a nanny state government 
that is obsessed with micro-managing people's lives.

"Anarchist" in name, Stalinist in nature.

-- 
Ed Banger

Ed Banger wrote:
> In message 
> , 
> BrianW  writes
>> On 5 Jul, 08:32, Doug  wrote:
>>> On 5 Jul, 08:25, Mark Goodge  
>>> wrote:> On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 23:51:04 -0700 (PDT), Doug put finger to 
>>> keyboard
>>> > and typed:
>>>
>>> > >It is good that fuel for harmful cars is now being more realistically
>>> > >priced but there is still a way to go.
>>>
>>> > Given that the majority of the pump price of petrol is tax, and you
>>> > claim to be an anarchist, how can you possibly call the price
>>> > "realistic?" The underlying value may be, but the price actually paid
>>> > is almost entirely an artifact of government policy.
>>>
>>> The tax, like many taxes, is a deterrent, in this case to frivolous
>>> hypermobility and unnecessary pollution. Many motorists could, if they
>>> so chose, could drive around in much smaller cars or leave their car
>>> at home much more than they do and thus avoid much of the tax. Some
>>> could go as far as changing their lifestyles to remove for good their
>>> pitiful car addiction and need for payment of the tax.
>>
>> Tee hee.  An "anarchist" who is in favour of taxation.  You *really*
>> are a retard, aren't you Gollum?
> 
> And, even funnier, an "anarchist" who applauds a nanny state government 
> that is obsessed with micro-managing people's lives.
> 
> "Anarchist" in name, Stalinist in nature.

It would be ever so funny if it wasn't sad.

-- 
John Wright

"What would happen if you eliminated the autism genes from the gene pool?

You would have a bunch of people standing around in a cave, chatting and
socialising and not getting anything done!" - Professor Temple Grandin

In article <188b2a4c-33e1-47b1-977e-577539808c53
@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, Doug says...
> It is good that fuel for harmful cars is now being more realistically
> priced but there is still a way to go.
> 
> "Motorists are facing further pain after a warning yesterday that the
> latest surge in crude oil prices to record highs could add another 20p
> to a litre at the pumps within weeks.
> 
That's OK, my main car runs on diesel so I'll just nip to Makro and go 
buy a few gallons of veggie oil.


-- 
Conor

I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't 
looking good either. - Scott Adams

On 5 jul, 13:03, Conor  wrote:
> In article <188b2a4c-33e1-47b1-977e-577539808c53
> @m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, Doug says...> It is good that fuel for harmful cars is now being more realistically
> > priced but there is still a way to go.
>
> > "Motorists are facing further pain after a warning yesterday that the
> > latest surge in crude oil prices to record highs could add another 20p
> > to a litre at the pumps within weeks.
>
> That's OK, my main car runs on diesel so I'll just nip to Makro and go
> buy a few gallons of veggie oil.
>


Sadly the price of even the cheapest veg oil is approaching or
surpassing the cost of 'normal' diesel, the price has more than
doubled in the last few weeks.
NM

On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 07:34:44 -0700, NM wrote:

> On 5 jul, 13:03, Conor  wrote:
>> In article <188b2a4c-33e1-47b1-977e-577539808c53
>> @m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, Doug says...> It is good that fuel for
>> harmful cars is now being more realistically
>> > priced but there is still a way to go.
>>
>> > "Motorists are facing further pain after a warning yesterday that the
>> > latest surge in crude oil prices to record highs could add another
>> > 20p to a litre at the pumps within weeks.
>>
>> That's OK, my main car runs on diesel so I'll just nip to Makro and go
>> buy a few gallons of veggie oil.
>>
>>
> 
> Sadly the price of even the cheapest veg oil is approaching or
> surpassing the cost of 'normal' diesel, the price has more than doubled
> in the last few weeks.
> NM

£14.70 for 15 litres at tesco, ie 98p a litre. Somewhat cheaper than 
diesel at £1.33 a litre. It saves me £35 or so to fill up with Tesco veg. 
I actually get it for about 70p/litre..

Mike P

On 5 jul, 17:02, Mike P  wrote:
> On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 07:34:44 -0700, NM wrote:
> > On 5 jul, 13:03, Conor  wrote:
> >> In article <188b2a4c-33e1-47b1-977e-577539808c53
> >> @m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, Doug says...> It is good that fuel for
> >> harmful cars is now being more realistically
> >> > priced but there is still a way to go.
>
> >> > "Motorists are facing further pain after a warning yesterday that the
> >> > latest surge in crude oil prices to record highs could add another
> >> > 20p to a litre at the pumps within weeks.
>
> >> That's OK, my main car runs on diesel so I'll just nip to Makro and go
> >> buy a few gallons of veggie oil.
>
> > Sadly the price of even the cheapest veg oil is approaching or
> > surpassing the cost of 'normal' diesel, the price has more than doubled
> > in the last few weeks.
> > NM
>
> £14.70 for 15 litres at tesco, ie 98p a litre. Somewhat cheaper than
> diesel at £1.33 a litre. It saves me £35 or so to fill up with Tesco veg.
> I actually get it for about 70p/litre..
>
> Mike P

I have been using various brand and type of veg oils for nearly a year
now, when I started the cheapest was Tesco (Pura) at 56p litre, Last
time I checked Tesco same stuff  (own brand) was 1.19 litre (Cornwall)
Lidl was 69p then it went to 119p, same as Tesco now has dropped back
to 115p  Local wholesaler went to 23 pounds for 20 litre can, now
dropped back to 21pounds making it the cheapest in my area. I suspect
the veg oil suppliers saw their products attaining sales levels they
never thought possible a year ago so they jumped on the bandwagon but
have had to drop prices back as the sales taper off close to the price
of diesel.

I also use previously loved cooking oil but that has gone from "Thank
you for taking it away" to Sorry, I sell it back to my oil supplier in
exchange for a discount on my new oil" anyway it's a shlap filtering
it.

You would be well advised to have your pump seals exchanged and of
course unless you have a pre heater or live on the top of a steep hill
you will need some fossil diesel in the mix to ease starting,
especially when stone cold but you provbably already know that.
NM

On 5 Jul, 15:34, NM  wrote:
> On 5 jul, 13:03, Conor  wrote:
>
> > In article <188b2a4c-33e1-47b1-977e-577539808c53
> > @m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, Doug says...> It is good that fuel for harmful cars is now being more realistically
> > > priced but there is still a way to go.
>
> > > "Motorists are facing further pain after a warning yesterday that the
> > > latest surge in crude oil prices to record highs could add another 20p
> > > to a litre at the pumps within weeks.
>
> > That's OK, my main car runs on diesel so I'll just nip to Makro and go
> > buy a few gallons of veggie oil.
>
> Sadly the price of even the cheapest veg oil is approaching or
> surpassing the cost of 'normal' diesel, the price has more than
> doubled in the last few weeks.
> NM

And there will never be enough to go around at present levels of
wasteful fuel consumption.

--
UK Radical Campaigns
www.zing.icom43.net
"The car, more of a toilet than a convenience".

On 5 Jul, 17:16, NM  wrote:
> On 5 jul, 17:02, Mike P  wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 07:34:44 -0700, NM wrote:
> > > On 5 jul, 13:03, Conor  wrote:
> > >> In article <188b2a4c-33e1-47b1-977e-577539808c53
> > >> @m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, Doug says...> It is good that fuel for
> > >> harmful cars is now being more realistically
> > >> > priced but there is still a way to go.
>
> > >> > "Motorists are facing further pain after a warning yesterday that the
> > >> > latest surge in crude oil prices to record highs could add another
> > >> > 20p to a litre at the pumps within weeks.
>
> > >> That's OK, my main car runs on diesel so I'll just nip to Makro and go
> > >> buy a few gallons of veggie oil.
>
> > > Sadly the price of even the cheapest veg oil is approaching or
> > > surpassing the cost of 'normal' diesel, the price has more than doubled
> > > in the last few weeks.
> > > NM
>
> > £14.70 for 15 litres at tesco, ie 98p a litre. Somewhat cheaper than
> > diesel at £1.33 a litre. It saves me £35 or so to fill up with Tesco veg.
> > I actually get it for about 70p/litre..
>
> > Mike P
>
> I have been using various brand and type of veg oils for nearly a year
> now, when I started the cheapest was Tesco (Pura) at 56p litre, Last
> time I checked Tesco same stuff  (own brand) was 1.19 litre (Cornwall)
> Lidl was 69p then it went to 119p, same as Tesco now has dropped back
> to 115p  Local wholesaler went to 23 pounds for 20 litre can, now
> dropped back to 21pounds making it the cheapest in my area. I suspect
> the veg oil suppliers saw their products attaining sales levels they
> never thought possible a year ago so they jumped on the bandwagon but
> have had to drop prices back as the sales taper off close to the price
> of diesel.
>
> I also use previously loved cooking oil but that has gone from "Thank
> you for taking it away" to Sorry, I sell it back to my oil supplier in
> exchange for a discount on my new oil" anyway it's a shlap filtering
> it.
>
> You would be well advised to have your pump seals exchanged and of
> course unless you have a pre heater or live on the top of a steep hill
> you will need some fossil diesel in the mix to ease starting,
> especially when stone cold but you provbably already know that.
> NM

Bit of a hassle eh? Oh the joys of motoring!

--
UK Radical Campaigns
www.zing.icom43.net
"The car, more of a toilet than a convenience".

On 6 jul, 07:54, Doug  wrote:

>
> Bit of a hassle eh? Oh the joys of motoring!

The hassle pales into insignificance compared to the perils of late
night surburban rail and all night busses through places like Lewisham
and Catford.
NM

Doug  wrote:

> Bit of a hassle eh? Oh the joys of motoring!

Much less of a hassle than struggling with a bicycle and trailer.

Does anyone have a photograph of a senile old fool struggling with a
bicycle trailer while obtructing the pavement that could be used to
illustrate this point?

On 6 Jul, 17:22, NM  wrote:
> On 6 jul, 07:54, Doug  wrote:
>
>
>
> > Bit of a hassle eh? Oh the joys of motoring!
>
> The hassle pales into insignificance compared to the perils of late
> night surburban rail and all night busses through places like Lewisham
> and Catford.

What are you doing in Lewisham and Catford late at night?

--
World Carfree Network
http://www.worldcarfree.net/
Help for your car-addicted friends in the U.K.

On 7 jul, 08:23, Doug  wrote:
> On 6 Jul, 17:22, NM  wrote:
>
> > On 6 jul, 07:54, Doug  wrote:
>
> > > Bit of a hassle eh? Oh the joys of motoring!
>
> > The hassle pales into insignificance compared to the perils of late
> > night surburban rail and all night busses through places like Lewisham
> > and Catford.
>
> What are you doing in Lewisham and Catford late at night?

Taking my life into my hands.

Doug wrote:
> On 6 Jul, 17:22, NM  wrote:
>> On 6 jul, 07:54, Doug  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Bit of a hassle eh? Oh the joys of motoring!
>>
>> The hassle pales into insignificance compared to the perils of late
>> night surburban rail and all night busses through places like
>> Lewisham and Catford.
>
> What are you doing in Lewisham and Catford late at night?

Passing through, as quickly as possible

"Mark Goodge"  wrote in message 
news:d6fu649daj79f2nkktv6efeubqu87k917h@news.markshouse.net...
> On Sat, 5 Jul 2008 08:32:27 +0100, Dr Zoidberg put finger to keyboard
> and typed:
>
>>"Mark Goodge"  wrote in message
>>news:0c8u641v59am57t6oqig9rc4p89khtfis3@news.markshouse.net...
>>> On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 23:51:04 -0700 (PDT), Doug put finger to keyboard
>>> and typed:
>>>
>>>>It is good that fuel for harmful cars is now being more realistically
>>>>priced but there is still a way to go.
>>>
>>> Given that the majority of the pump price of petrol is tax, and you
>>> claim to be an anarchist, how can you possibly call the price
>>> "realistic?" The underlying value may be, but the price actually paid
>>> is almost entirely an artifact of government policy.
>>
>>Duty is 51p , VAT is 18p on a litre of unleaded at £1.20
>>
>>Hardly "almost entirely" the result of government policy , and the recent
>>30p rise has been because of the change in oil prices and not because of 
>>tax
>>changes.
>>Duty was put up by 2p in about september last year and that's it.
>
> The point is that the level of tax makes the pump price almost
> entirely under the control of the government. It's not like the price
> of, say, cabbages or plasma screen TVs, where the government has
> little room for manouevre in altering the tax rate. The government
> could, if it wanted, halve the price of petrol simply by adjusting the
> level of tax. Or it could double it. Or anything in between, including
> holding the pump price level or at around the general RPI.

Also, the level of tax that the government receives is dependent on the pump 
price: not only is there the fixed fuel tax of 51p but also there is VAT 
which increases with price. So the government is now receiving more money 
than it did towards the end of last year when fuel was under £1/litre. It is 
a shame that the government is just sitting back and accepting this windfall 
instead of taking steps to stablilise the pump price by making a 
corresponding cut in fuel tax.

Actually I'd prefer it if they'd abolish VAT on fuel and raise fuel tax 
correspondingly (to give the same level of total tax as six months ago, fo 
example) so that no matter how the pump price goes up and down, the 
government still receives the same income.


Changing the subject slightly, why is it that diesel prices have gone up 
much more than petrol prices with the increase in the price of crude oil, 
when for a long time before that, petrol and diesel prices have been 
similar, rising and falling in step? Is it a worldwide phenomenon or has it 
just happened in the UK? Has the price of non-road-vehicle diesel (eg boats, 
tractors, heating oil) gone up at the same rate as DERV?

On 6 Jul, 17:38, %ste...@malloc.co.uk (Steve Firth) wrote:
> Doug  wrote:
> > Bit of a hassle eh? Oh the joys of motoring!
>
> Much less of a hassle than struggling with a bicycle and trailer.
>
> Does anyone have a photograph of a senile old fool struggling with a
> bicycle trailer while obtructing the pavement that could be used to
> illustrate this point?

Happy to oblige:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/gollumofcatford/2620828418/