On both my lines.

Dials OK but UK numbers unobtainable. People calling me get
unobtainable.

Anyone else?

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Al Paca   wrote:

> On both my lines.
>
> Dials OK but UK numbers unobtainable. People calling me get
> unobtainable.
>
> Anyone else?

Well, I've just dialled my BT line from my voip.co.uk line, and vice versa, 
and both ring out ok.
-- 
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

In message of Thu, 1 May 2008, Al Paca writes
>On both my lines.
>
>Dials OK but UK numbers unobtainable. People calling me get
>unobtainable.
>
>Anyone else?
>

Yes.

Your scenario fits for earlier this morning , but it was back on OK 
later.  Don't know the timings except that it wasn't working when I went 
out at 9:00am but was OK at 10:30

DF

On Thu, 1 May 2008 11:22:03 +0100, David Floyd 
wrote:

>Your scenario fits for earlier this morning , but it was back on OK 
>later.  Don't know the timings except that it wasn't working when I went 
>out at 9:00am but was OK at 10:30

It is working now. Only remaining problem is that voicemail via 121
gives an unobtainable tone after entering mailbox number followed by
hash.

On Thu, 1 May 2008 11:22:03 +0100, David Floyd 
wrote:

>In message of Thu, 1 May 2008, Al Paca writes
>>On both my lines.
>>
>>Dials OK but UK numbers unobtainable. People calling me get
>>unobtainable.
>>
>>Anyone else?
>>
>
>Yes.
>
>Your scenario fits for earlier this morning , but it was back on OK 
>later.  Don't know the timings except that it wasn't working when I went 
>out at 9:00am but was OK at 10:30
>
>DF
They just do not give a monkeys about their voip customers anymore
they must be making more money out of some other service that they are
running . Had they cared the new Tariffs etc that have now been
promised for over a year would be here available and up and running .
Has no one can now join the voip service I would like to know how they
can ever hope to stay in business .

wrote in message
> They just do not give a monkeys about their voip customers anymore
> they must be making more money out of some other service that they are
> running . Had they cared the new Tariffs etc that have now been
> promised for over a year would be here available and up and running .
> Has no one can now join the voip service I would like to know how they
> can ever hope to stay in business .
>
>
Seems like they are concentrating on their business customers. One of the 
management posted on their forums that they make more money from one of 
their business customers than they do out of the all of their residential 
customers.

It's a shame that they haven't released their residential tariffs, but I'm 
still using them as they have been very reliable for me.

On Thu, 01 May 2008 14:48:40 GMT, mymail@hotmail.co.uk wrote:

>They just do not give a monkeys about their voip customers anymore
>they must be making more money out of some other service that they are
>running . Had they cared the new Tariffs etc that have now been
>promised for over a year would be here available and up and running .
>Has no one can now join the voip service I would like to know how they
>can ever hope to stay in business . 

Very predictable Ron. Usual lack of flair.

Back in your box now.

In message of Thu, 1 May 2008, Al Paca writes
>On Thu, 1 May 2008 11:22:03 +0100, David Floyd 
>wrote:
>
>>Your scenario fits for earlier this morning , but it was back on OK
>>later.  Don't know the timings except that it wasn't working when I went
>>out at 9:00am but was OK at 10:30
>
>It is working now. Only remaining problem is that voicemail via 121
>gives an unobtainable tone after entering mailbox number followed by
>hash.
>

I raised a ticket about this yesterday.  It is now back working.

David

In article <fve0sn$b6p$1@energise.enta.net>, Phil  wrote:
> wrote in message
>> They just do not give a monkeys about their voip customers anymore
>> they must be making more money out of some other service that they are
>> running . Had they cared the new Tariffs etc that have now been
>> promised for over a year would be here available and up and running .
>> Has no one can now join the voip service I would like to know how they
>> can ever hope to stay in business .
>>
>>
>Seems like they are concentrating on their business customers. One of the 
>management posted on their forums that they make more money from one of 
>their business customers than they do out of the all of their residential 
>customers.
>
>It's a shame that they haven't released their residential tariffs, but I'm 
>still using them as they have been very reliable for me. 

As yet another VoIP/ITSP type of enterprise, I find that it's one of
those business conundrums... I provide VoIP, PBXs, etc. to businesses,
and I have a "hosted" system, but it's aimed at the small business rather
than the residential market - however I do have a small number of people
(Basically friends & family) using it in a residential manner.

But could I support 100's or 1000's of residential customers? And do I
want to when "Betamax" exists offering free calls? (Which I certainly
won't do!) If this is the case with voip.co.uk, then I can sort of
see their point, but there are still many ITSPs who'll offer these
features... Sipgate (not everyones favourite, I know, however they do
address the residential market), Gradwell - more for the SME, but liked
by the "clued-up" market who want a quality service, most of the hardware
suppliers provide a service - voiptalk.co.uk, voipfone.co.uk, (Telappliant
resellers), voipon.co.uk and so on, so we're not exactly short on choice.

And I have to say, the biggest issue I've faced with people working from
home, etc. is that they're tight fisted b'stards who'll go for the
cheapest and most rubbish ISP they can get their grubby paws on, and
then whinge when their VoIP doesn't work...

<grumpy-old-man> Bah! </grumpy-old-man>

So what would you want out of a residential VoIP service?

Gordon

On Fri, 2 May 2008 09:19:32 +0100, David Floyd 
wrote:

>I raised a ticket about this yesterday.  It is now back working.

Thanks David. So did I and received a further response this morning
confirming all is now well - which it is.

On Fri, 2 May 2008 10:09:51 +0000 (UTC), Gordon Henderson
<gordon+usenet@drogon.net> wrote:


>So what would you want out of a residential VoIP service?

Not a lot actually Gordon mainly a provider which does not lie to its
customers has voip.co.uk have done for over 12 months or more ,if they
now do not want residential customers why don't they crawl from under
the stone that they are hiding under and tell people. If something is
sadly wrong with their systems and are unable to proved the new
tariffs why don't they tell us not just keep quiet in the hope that
all the residential customers will go away ? .

On Fri, 02 May 2008 10:09:51 +0000, Gordon Henderson wrote:

> As yet another VoIP/ITSP type of enterprise, I find that it's one of
> those business conundrums... I provide VoIP, PBXs, etc. to businesses,
> and I have a "hosted" system, but it's aimed at the small business
> rather than the residential market - however I do have a small number of
> people (Basically friends & family) using it in a residential manner.

It would be nice to think this earns you a some goodwill, and if any of 
your residential users knows someone who's after a phone system, they'll 
recommend you.

> But could I support 100's or 1000's of residential customers? And do I
> want to when "Betamax" exists offering free calls? (Which I certainly
> won't do!) 

What's the point in offering residential VoIP service? The main driver 
for residential customers is price, and most people can get free evening 
and weekend calls as part of a package that comes with their line rental. 
Line rental that they'd have to pay for to get broadband to use a VoIP 
service with anyway. The best residential VoIP service for Joe Bloggs is 
Skype. All his mates use it, installing it is a matter of clicking 'next' 
a few times, and he can even get it to work on his mobile when he's out 
and about. The residential users who want the technical features that 
come with VoIP know what they're worth and will be happy to pay for them.

<snip rundown of providers>

> we're not exactly short on choice.

Exactly. It's a blood bath, stay the hell out.

> And I have to say, the biggest issue I've faced with people working from
> home, etc. is that they're tight fisted b'stards who'll go for the
> cheapest and most rubbish ISP they can get their grubby paws on, and
> then whinge when their VoIP doesn't work...
> 
> <grumpy-old-man> Bah! </grumpy-old-man>

Which probably explains why voip.co.uk withdrew their £20/year service 
and don't have anything to replace it. It's just not worth the hassle 
supporting people that you're making pennies from. Spend too long on the 
phone supporting a particularly inept customer and you can kiss your 
profit for the month goodbye!

> So what would you want out of a residential VoIP service?

I think Sipgate's service pretty much covers what I'm after. The only 
gripe I have is the per-minute rather than per-second billing, but other 
than that I really can't complain given the cost.

-- 
 <http://ale.cx/> (AIM:troffasky) (UnSoEsNpEaTm@ale.cx)
 22:09:13 up 68 days,  5:04,  2 users,  load average: 0.11, 0.05, 0.06
 Convergence, n: The act of using separate DSL circuits for voice and data

In article <481b8720$0$657$bed64819@news.gradwell.net>,
alexd   wrote:
>
...lots of snippage ...

Thanks for this. Quite Intersting, and food for thought...

>> So what would you want out of a residential VoIP service?
>
>I think Sipgate's service pretty much covers what I'm after. The only 
>gripe I have is the per-minute rather than per-second billing, but other 
>than that I really can't complain given the cost.

Also intersting, as Sipgate and myself share a common wholesaler, and
knowing the rates I get from them, I find this curious (but they could
be on a better rate than me!) Telephone billing systems are a black art
unto themselves. I'm sure universities will be offering PhD's in it
soon... (I bill by the second, but rounded up to the next 1p)

> <http://ale.cx/> (AIM:troffasky) (UnSoEsNpEaTm@ale.cx)
> 22:09:13 up 68 days,  5:04,  2 users,  load average: 0.11, 0.05, 0.06

Pah, I see your 68 days and raise it with:

 11:35:06 up 926 days, 21:37,  1 user,  load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00

> Convergence, n: The act of using separate DSL circuits for voice and data

I have one customer with 3 ADSL lines. One for general office data, one
for incoming calls, and a 3rd for outgoing calls.... Still cheaper for
them than ISDN30 apparently, and of-course, I get call revenue from
their outgoing calls ;-)

Gordon

In news:fvhfep$84r$1@energise.enta.net,
Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> typed, for some strange, 
unexplained reason:
: In article <481b8720$0$657$bed64819@news.gradwell.net>,
: alexd   wrote:
: >
: ...lots of snippage ...
:
: Thanks for this. Quite Intersting, and food for thought...
:
: >> So what would you want out of a residential VoIP service?
: >
: >I think Sipgate's service pretty much covers what I'm after. The only
: >gripe I have is the per-minute rather than per-second billing, but
: >other than that I really can't complain given the cost.
:
: Also intersting, as Sipgate and myself share a common wholesaler, and
: knowing the rates I get from them, I find this curious (but they could
: be on a better rate than me!) Telephone billing systems are a black
: art unto themselves. I'm sure universities will be offering PhD's in
: it soon... (I bill by the second, but rounded up to the next 1p)

I think that one of the reasons why Sipgate bill per minute is that they 
give the numbers away for free. I don't know of any other VoIP supplier 
who does that and for me it's worth it in the savings on monthly rentals.

In fact, if you only call 0800 and Sipgate numbers, there's no obligation 
to put any credit on your account at all, I have a friend who's had a 
Sipgate number for 3 years and it's never cost him a penny. He only uses 
it for 0800 and to call me and a handful of other friends on the system.

(Cue Ron with his rantings..!)

Ivor

On Sat, 3 May 2008 12:04:01 +0100, "Ivor Jones"
<ivor@thisaddressis.invalid> wrote:

>In news:fvhfep$84r$1@energise.enta.net,
>Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> typed, for some strange, 
>unexplained reason:
>: In article <481b8720$0$657$bed64819@news.gradwell.net>,
>: alexd   wrote:
>: >
>: ...lots of snippage ...

>
>I think that one of the reasons why Sipgate bill per minute is that they 
>give the numbers away for free. I don't know of any other VoIP supplier 
>who does that and for me it's worth it in the savings on monthly rentals.
Some of the Finarea companies, such as JustVoip, charge just one Euro
for an incoming number.
If I remember correctly voip.co.uk provided the first number for free
and a one-off additional charge for further numbers,
I got the strong impression, from a remark made on the voip.co.uk
forum, that 'residentials' weren't of any great interest to them. The
statement, as I remember it, was to the effect that the 'business' of
ALL the 'residentials' were matched by a single business customer.
It is not surprising that they don't prioritise 'residentials'.
I now use  JustVoip and all the ATAs that I have control of will go
that way. I have found the performance of JustVoip, so far,  via the
Voxalot eu server,  to be excellent.


---
Remove 'no_spam_' from email address.
---

alexd wrote:

> 
> What's the point in offering residential VoIP service? The main driver 
> for residential customers is price, and most people can get free evening 
> and weekend calls as part of a package that comes with their line rental. 
> Line rental that they'd have to pay for to get broadband to use a VoIP 
> service with anyway. 

People like myself using cable broadband do not pay line rental, 
therefore voip gives me a "traditional" landline without paying the 
extra £11 per month.

On Sat, 3 May 2008 12:04:01 +0100, "Ivor Jones"
<ivor@thisaddressis.invalid> wrote:

>In news:fvhfep$84r$1@energise.enta.net,
>Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> typed, for some strange, 
>unexplained reason:
>: In article <481b8720$0$657$bed64819@news.gradwell.net>,
>: alexd   wrote:
>: >
>: ...lots of snippage ...
>:
>: Thanks for this. Quite Intersting, and food for thought...
>:
>: >> So what would you want out of a residential VoIP service?
>: >
>: >I think Sipgate's service pretty much covers what I'm after. The only
>: >gripe I have is the per-minute rather than per-second billing, but
>: >other than that I really can't complain given the cost.
>:
>: Also intersting, as Sipgate and myself share a common wholesaler, and
>: knowing the rates I get from them, I find this curious (but they could
>: be on a better rate than me!) Telephone billing systems are a black
>: art unto themselves. I'm sure universities will be offering PhD's in
>: it soon... (I bill by the second, but rounded up to the next 1p)
>
>I think that one of the reasons why Sipgate bill per minute is that they 
>give the numbers away for free. I don't know of any other VoIP supplier 
>who does that and for me it's worth it in the savings on monthly rentals.
>
>In fact, if you only call 0800 and Sipgate numbers, there's no obligation 
>to put any credit on your account at all, I have a friend who's had a 
>Sipgate number for 3 years and it's never cost him a penny. He only uses 
>it for 0800 and to call me and a handful of other friends on the system.
>
>(Cue Ron with his rantings..!)
>
>Ivor
Just how many times do I have to tell you to FUCK OFF Ivor .

In news:f0to141slr1r8l7ca5hmi8bq5apnahp22m@4ax.com,
mymail@hotmail.co.uk  typed, for some strange, 
unexplained reason:

[snip]

: Just how many times do I have to tell you to FUCK OFF Ivor .

As many as you like, Ron..!

Ivor

On Sat, 03 May 2008 13:04:10 GMT, BC
 wrote:

>alexd wrote:
>
>> 
>> What's the point in offering residential VoIP service? The main driver 
>> for residential customers is price, and most people can get free evening 
>> and weekend calls as part of a package that comes with their line rental. 
>> Line rental that they'd have to pay for to get broadband to use a VoIP 
>> service with anyway. 
>
>People like myself using cable broadband do not pay line rental, 
>therefore voip gives me a "traditional" landline without paying the 
>extra £11 per month.
Likewise, and I actually prefer voip.
Via voip the calls are so cheap that the 'free' calls offered by
landline companies become insignificant.

---
Remove 'no_spam_' from email address.
---

Brian A wrote:

e voip.co.uk
> forum, that 'residentials' weren't of any great interest to them. The
> statement, as I remember it, was to the effect that the 'business' of
> ALL the 'residentials' were matched by a single business customer.
> It is not surprising that they don't prioritise 'residentials'.

However, don't forget that the "New Platform" they developed was bult 
for residential customers.

I think they still plan to launch new residential tariffs, but clearly 
there is some reason why they haven't. Perhaps they are waiting till the 
market settles down first.  With free calls on offer from other 
suppliers, they'll find it hard to be competitive on price.

Compare the POTS third party carrier market, where at one time calls 
were free, then 0.5p per call through 18866. Now they are around 5p or 
6p per call from the same company. A competitor would have been wise to 
wait for that rise before launching in opposition. Perhaps voip.co.uk 
are waiting for betamax to do the equivalent.

On Sun, 04 May 2008 00:36:26 +0100, Iain 
wrote:

>Brian A wrote:
>
>e voip.co.uk
>> forum, that 'residentials' weren't of any great interest to them. The
>> statement, as I remember it, was to the effect that the 'business' of
>> ALL the 'residentials' were matched by a single business customer.
>> It is not surprising that they don't prioritise 'residentials'.
>
>However, don't forget that the "New Platform" they developed was bult 
>for residential customers.
>
>I think they still plan to launch new residential tariffs, but clearly 
>there is some reason why they haven't. Perhaps they are waiting till the 
>market settles down first.  With free calls on offer from other 
>suppliers, they'll find it hard to be competitive on price.
>
>Compare the POTS third party carrier market, where at one time calls 
>were free, then 0.5p per call through 18866. Now they are around 5p or 
>6p per call from the same company. A competitor would have been wise to 
>wait for that rise before launching in opposition. Perhaps voip.co.uk 
>are waiting for betamax to do the equivalent.
I can see the point you are making but I think that voip is a very
different landscape. There is more competition than just Betamax.
During the 2 years that I used voip.co.uk I got the strong impression
that Chris did the best he could, to interface between the
organisation and customers, but that he just put forward what he was
told and that was often just false promises. For example, right at the
start, we were informed that they would soon be making improvements to
the voicemail. The problem with it was that once you had listened to a
message it deleted, so, unless you could access the Net, there was no
chance to listen to it again.  I will make a guess that nothing has
been done. It was also pointed out, on the forum, that 'residentials'
were very vocal. I have sympathy with that, after all how much
customer service can people expect for £20/year. Betamax don't offer
any customer service to speak of and you just have to accept that, so
why do people expect so much more from voip.co.uk?
If they  have supposedly installed a new platform how hard can it be
to devise a tariff? They are doing OK with business so 'residential'
is probably not even on the back burner.
Life goes on. If they ever do start to take a positive interest in
'residential' then it is always possible to go back to them. If there
is a need to retain the incoming number I doubt that they'll take it
away. There are lots of Betamax companies to choose from, Vyke and
lots of others so it isn't that there aren't any alternatives.
I think that voip.co.uk are basically a good company but as far as
residential goes I'd just say 'move on!'.



---
Remove 'no_spam_' from email address.
---

Brian A wrote:

> I can see the point you are making but I think that voip is a very
> different landscape. There is more competition than just Betamax.

Well, there are lots of other companies offering voip services, but when 
it comes to price-competitive voip, there is nothing except Betamax as 
far as I know. I suspect that voip.co.uk can't be competitive with 
betamax and also make a profit, so they are sitting on their hands till 
Betamax prices rise.

> I think that voip.co.uk are basically a good company but as far as
> residential goes I'd just say 'move on!'.

Indeed. I use Betamax for most outgoing calls, but keep voip.co.uk for 
incoming and the outgoing calls that they are still competitive for (and 
one of our offices uses voip.co.uk exclusively because it's not worth 
the hassle of changing).

I'm still hoping that voip.co.uk will revisit the residential / SOHO 
market. We have some clients who would use them.