Heres one that's new to me )-:

Elminated all internal wiring by plugging directly into master socket. I
have tried 3 different microfilters and 2 differnet modem/routers, but
the result is the same :-

With the modem/router turned off, the phone line is clear, but as soon as
I turn the router on and it starts to sync the line starts to sound hissy
with the occasional crackle. This i swith nothing more than a microfilter
plugged into the test port, a standard analogue phone and Draytek router
(one of 2 I've tried - a 2600+ and a 2600vg)

Broadband is mostly the full 8Mb, although I'm only 0.5Km from the
exchange, SNR isn't really what I'd expect. Currently seeing:

up: 736000 down: 6880000 snr: 15.5 loopAtt:23.0

So I know that if I call BT they'll just tell me it's my equipment,
(as in, oh listen, it's silent when you turn off the router so it must
be the router) and charge me for a call-out fee, so is there anything
that anyone in the past has seen that would cause this? Something I
could tell the BT teletubby that they might belive?

This has happened before - during a period of bad weather, but it's been
nice here for weeks now!

If anyone has any clues, magic words to say to BT, etc. I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,

Gordon

> Heres one that's new to me )-:
>
> Elminated all internal wiring by plugging directly into master socket. I
> have tried 3 different microfilters and 2 differnet modem/routers, but
> the result is the same :-
>
> With the modem/router turned off, the phone line is clear, but as soon as
> I turn the router on and it starts to sync the line starts to sound hissy
> with the occasional crackle. This i swith nothing more than a microfilter
> plugged into the test port, a standard analogue phone and Draytek router
> (one of 2 I've tried - a 2600+ and a 2600vg)
>
> Broadband is mostly the full 8Mb, although I'm only 0.5Km from the
> exchange, SNR isn't really what I'd expect. Currently seeing:
>
> up: 736000 down: 6880000 snr: 15.5 loopAtt:23.0
>
> So I know that if I call BT they'll just tell me it's my equipment,
> (as in, oh listen, it's silent when you turn off the router so it must
> be the router) and charge me for a call-out fee, so is there anything
> that anyone in the past has seen that would cause this? Something I
> could tell the BT teletubby that they might belive?
>
> This has happened before - during a period of bad weather, but it's been
> nice here for weeks now!
>
> If anyone has any clues, magic words to say to BT, etc. I'd appreciate it.


At the risk of stating the obvious have you tried just the filter and router 
plugged into the test socket with nothing else connected? It does appear 
likely that the problem is not with BT so don't involve them. The other 
possibility is that both router and/or filters have faults. Can you borrow 
another of both to try? Are the filter good quality branded ones rather than 
the anonymous T shaped variety?

Peter Crosland

In article <95KdnaRhG6IBPX3VnZ2dnUVZ8qrinZ2d@posted.plusnet>,
Peter Crosland  wrote:
>> Heres one that's new to me )-:
>>
>> Elminated all internal wiring by plugging directly into master socket. I
>> have tried 3 different microfilters and 2 differnet modem/routers, but
>> the result is the same :-
>>
>> With the modem/router turned off, the phone line is clear, but as soon as
>> I turn the router on and it starts to sync the line starts to sound hissy
>> with the occasional crackle. This i swith nothing more than a microfilter
>> plugged into the test port, a standard analogue phone and Draytek router
>> (one of 2 I've tried - a 2600+ and a 2600vg)
>>
>> Broadband is mostly the full 8Mb, although I'm only 0.5Km from the
>> exchange, SNR isn't really what I'd expect. Currently seeing:
>>
>> up: 736000 down: 6880000 snr: 15.5 loopAtt:23.0
>>
>> So I know that if I call BT they'll just tell me it's my equipment,
>> (as in, oh listen, it's silent when you turn off the router so it must
>> be the router) and charge me for a call-out fee, so is there anything
>> that anyone in the past has seen that would cause this? Something I
>> could tell the BT teletubby that they might belive?
>>
>> This has happened before - during a period of bad weather, but it's been
>> nice here for weeks now!
>>
>> If anyone has any clues, magic words to say to BT, etc. I'd appreciate it.
>
>
>At the risk of stating the obvious have you tried just the filter and router 
>plugged into the test socket with nothing else connected? It does appear 
>likely that the problem is not with BT so don't involve them. The other 
>possibility is that both router and/or filters have faults. Can you borrow 
>another of both to try? Are the filter good quality branded ones rather than 
>the anonymous T shaped variety?

Yes, I have tried both routers directly into the socket - they sync OK, but
not at the values I'd expect. (Same SNR/LoopAtt values)

And while there is a possibility the router have faults, I doubt it -
I've been using them since I got ADSL. I have graphs of the SNR/LoopAtt
values too for the past year, so I know it's never been right for a long
time (considering my distance from the exchange and based on neighbours
connections) - it's only recently it's started to get worse...

Actually, I've tried 4 microfilters - the "normal" one I use is a box
mounted faceplate from solwise - at the end of 5m of cat5 cable from
the master socket - that yields the same results, so I went right back
to the master socket for the rest of my tests.

I'm fairly sure I did ready about someone recently with a similar fault,
but I've done a search here and elsewhere, but not come up with anything
yet - corroded wire, high resistance, bad connection, *something* like
that in the external BT cabling, but ...

Gordon

In article <gbq81h$kua$1@energise.enta.net>, gordon+usenet@drogon.net 
says...

> 
> Yes, I have tried both routers directly into the socket - they sync OK, but
> not at the values I'd expect. (Same SNR/LoopAtt values)
> 
> And while there is a possibility the router have faults, I doubt it -
> I've been using them since I got ADSL. I have graphs of the SNR/LoopAtt
> values too for the past year, so I know it's never been right for a long
> time (considering my distance from the exchange and based on neighbours
> connections) - it's only recently it's started to get worse...
> 
> Actually, I've tried 4 microfilters - the "normal" one I use is a box
> mounted faceplate from solwise - at the end of 5m of cat5 cable from
> the master socket - that yields the same results, so I went right back

Do you have any home phone wiring?  If so, this will probably be 
connected to the back of the master faceplate so your wiring described 
above, if I understand it correctly, is wrong.  The filter MUST be 
connected between the incoming phone wires and all your home phone-type 
equipment and wiring. It must be connected before any home phone 
wiring, for best effect.  What it appears you have done is to connect a 
filter into a "box mounted faceplate from Solwise at the end of 5m of 
cat5 cable from the master socket".  How does this filter remove the 
ADSL signal from your home phone wiring?

Don't forget that an ADSL filter does nothing between the phone line 
and the ADSL modem. It only provides a low-pass filter, to remove the 
ADSL part of the combined signal, between the incoming phone line and 
the internal telephony wires and devices.  Your description of the 
problem (the ADSL HF noise) sounds like you don't have a filter between 
the incoming phone line and your telephone.

That said, your test putting the filter into the test socket and 
plugging the telephone into the filter's phone socket (you did this, 
didn't you?), with the modem in the filter's ADSL socket, should have 
removed the ADSL signal from the phone.  You are close to the exchange, 
so I'd try putting more than one filter in series with the telephones.  
This is because filters aren't sharp cut-off devices so the lower 
frequency ADSL signals may still be audible (I used to work with a 
"golden ears" who could hear cross-talk at -60dB) You can get filters 
with sharper cut-off characteristics that perform better on short lines 
than the standard design.

Also, try disconnecting the pin-3 ring wire.  It may be picking up the 
ADSL signal and coupling it into the phone side of the wiring (but not 
likely if you did the test socket connection correctly...)

ADSL filters do fail. They have capacitors in them which can change 
characteristics with age (and high ring signals).  Try a new faceplate 
filter.  I've had good performance with ADSLnation ones - but they also 
will age...
-- 
John W
Replace the obvious with co.uk twice to mail me

In article ,
John Weston  <invalid@earlsway.invalid> wrote:
>In article <gbq81h$kua$1@energise.enta.net>, gordon+usenet@drogon.net 
>says...
>
>> 
>> Yes, I have tried both routers directly into the socket - they sync OK, but
>> not at the values I'd expect. (Same SNR/LoopAtt values)
>> 
>> And while there is a possibility the router have faults, I doubt it -
>> I've been using them since I got ADSL. I have graphs of the SNR/LoopAtt
>> values too for the past year, so I know it's never been right for a long
>> time (considering my distance from the exchange and based on neighbours
>> connections) - it's only recently it's started to get worse...
>> 
>> Actually, I've tried 4 microfilters - the "normal" one I use is a box
>> mounted faceplate from solwise - at the end of 5m of cat5 cable from
>> the master socket - that yields the same results, so I went right back
>
>Do you have any home phone wiring? 

No.

Actually yes, but I did say I was plugged directly into the master socket
which disables all internal wiring. I may not have been quite clear, but
I really meant the test socket on the BT fitted box.

>If so, this will probably be 
>connected to the back of the master faceplate so your wiring described 
>above, if I understand it correctly, is wrong.

The home wiring is connected to the front-plate, so when I remove the
front-plate, it disconnects all home wiring, leaving just the test socket
on the master box which is what I am plugging into. Into this socket I
have plugged 2 modems (not at the same time), both with and without 3
different microfilters. The SNR/LoopAtt doesn't change with or without
the microfilters, but with the microfilters I hear hiss/crackles when
the ADSL modems start their synchronisation process.

I don't want to sound like a bit of a know-it-all, but I sell and
install ADSL as part of my business and have done dozens of installs
and home/office phone/network re-wires. I have the proper tools and
I've a good level of clue about phone wiring and so on, and how to
trouble shoot it all back to the BT master box.  I've done all this in
my case and it's still not right, now I'm looking for clues as to what
the external issue might be.

Yes, I know filters and modems can fail, but right now I've tried
4 filters and now 3 different modems, all with the same results. As
soon as the modem starts to negotiate, the audio part starts to hiss
and crackle and I'm of the opinion that this is caused by some sort
of external failure in either the line or equipment at the exchange,
however getting BT to acknowledge this and not charge me a 100 quid
call-out fee is what I'm trying to do.

>That said, your test putting the filter into the test socket and 
>plugging the telephone into the filter's phone socket (you did this, 
>didn't you?),

Yes I did. I may not have made that clear, but I was (currently still
am) plugged directly into the test socket.

> with the modem in the filter's ADSL socket, should have 
>removed the ADSL signal from the phone.  You are close to the exchange, 
>so I'd try putting more than one filter in series with the telephones.  
>This is because filters aren't sharp cut-off devices so the lower 
>frequency ADSL signals may still be audible (I used to work with a 
>"golden ears" who could hear cross-talk at -60dB) You can get filters 
>with sharper cut-off characteristics that perform better on short lines 
>than the standard design.

My concern is not so-much for the hiss/crackles I hear on the phone, but
that the ADSL modem signals are causing it via some line fault - either a
bad connection or some sort of  high resistance, corrosion, diode effect
(???) or equipment failure at the exchange that's being triggererd
somehow by the adsl modem signals.

I can trace my wire visibly from the master socket to the pole where it
goes underground to the exchange..

>Also, try disconnecting the pin-3 ring wire.  It may be picking up the 
>ADSL signal and coupling it into the phone side of the wiring (but not 
>likely if you did the test socket connection correctly...)

It's not connected at all. I normally only have one telephone device
connected and that's a PBX. My home/office phones are on the other side
of the PBX. Right now, it's not connected, just my test phone.

>ADSL filters do fail. They have capacitors in them which can change 
>characteristics with age (and high ring signals).  Try a new faceplate 
>filter.  I've had good performance with ADSLnation ones - but they also 
>will age...

I've tried 4 so-far and 3 modems. One (filter) was brand-new out of the box.

Gordon

Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> wrote:

>With the modem/router turned off, the phone line is clear, but as soon as
>I turn the router on and it starts to sync the line starts to sound hissy
>with the occasional crackle.

Very likely a bad connection in your line. Corroded metal to metal contacts
can be non-linear allowing high frequency ADSL signals to mix and produce
products in the audio range. 

A dirty connection with non-linear leakage between the lines can give the
same effect and is perhaps more likely to crackle but I would expect it to
crackle without an ADSL signal. Dirty connections are sometimes influenced
by humidity and are sometimes temporarily cleared by the higher voltage of
incoming ringing. 

A friend had the same problem. All the BT tech could do is remake every
connection till he found problem, it was in a junction box about 1/4 mile
away. 

--

In article ,
nospam  <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:
>Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> wrote:
>
>>With the modem/router turned off, the phone line is clear, but as soon as
>>I turn the router on and it starts to sync the line starts to sound hissy
>>with the occasional crackle.
>
>Very likely a bad connection in your line. Corroded metal to metal contacts
>can be non-linear allowing high frequency ADSL signals to mix and produce
>products in the audio range. 
>
>A dirty connection with non-linear leakage between the lines can give the
>same effect and is perhaps more likely to crackle but I would expect it to
>crackle without an ADSL signal. Dirty connections are sometimes influenced
>by humidity and are sometimes temporarily cleared by the higher voltage of
>incoming ringing. 
>
>A friend had the same problem. All the BT tech could do is remake every
>connection till he found problem, it was in a junction box about 1/4 mile
>away. 

Right.

But how to get BT to actually do something about it though )-:

It might even be worth the 100 quid if I could actually get BT to do
this...

Gordon

In article <gbqc1m$spd$1@energise.enta.net>, gordon+usenet@drogon.net 
says...

> 
> I don't want to sound like a bit of a know-it-all, but I sell and
> install ADSL as part of my business and have done dozens of installs
> and home/office phone/network re-wires. I have the proper tools and
> I've a good level of clue about phone wiring and so on, and how to
> trouble shoot it all back to the BT master box.  I've done all this in
> my case and it's still not right, now I'm looking for clues as to what
> the external issue might be.
> 
> Yes, I know filters and modems can fail, but right now I've tried
> 4 filters and now 3 different modems, all with the same results. As
> soon as the modem starts to negotiate, the audio part starts to hiss

Ah - the essential information :-)   You can often hear the ADSL modem 
until the line synchronises. 

I assume you are using a basic phone and have tried different types.  
Some older electronic types were not designed to reject even the low 
level filtered ADSL signal. Have you tried filters in series to get a 
sharper cut-off? - but that won't help is it is noise in the audio 
band.

It does sound like a line problem causing cross-modulation. IME, it's a 
b****r to get fixed if you don't have a technically competent ISP - and 
Openreach engineer interested in fixing the fault.  Can the noise be 
heard at the other end of a phone call?  If so, it is somewhat easier 
to get the fault acknowledged.  

Good look - and let us know if you find, or get a fix...
-- 
John W
Replace the obvious with co.uk twice to mail me

nospam wrote:
> Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> wrote:
> 
>> With the modem/router turned off, the phone line is clear, but as soon as
>> I turn the router on and it starts to sync the line starts to sound hissy
>> with the occasional crackle.
> 
> Very likely a bad connection in your line. Corroded metal to metal contacts
> can be non-linear allowing high frequency ADSL signals to mix and produce
> products in the audio range. 

Reading the thread I couldn't see a mechanism that would cause this..but 
yes, you are exactly right here.


> 
> A dirty connection with non-linear leakage between the lines can give the
> same effect and is perhaps more likely to crackle but I would expect it to
> crackle without an ADSL signal. Dirty connections are sometimes influenced
> by humidity and are sometimes temporarily cleared by the higher voltage of
> incoming ringing. 
> 
> A friend had the same problem. All the BT tech could do is remake every
> connection till he found problem, it was in a junction box about 1/4 mile
> away. 
> 

The problem is getting Openreach and the ISP to accept they have a 
fault..Test equipment should see the fault though.

John Weston wrote:

> Ah - the essential information :-)   You can often hear the ADSL modem 
> until the line synchronises. 

I'd dispute that - you shouldn't hear anything, even during modem 
training. If there's an audible hiss, then there's a fault- probably an 
HR on the line (or possibly a dud filter, of course, but I believe that 
the assertion of "Faulty filter" is far too often used to fob off the 
customer).
> 
> I assume you are using a basic phone and have tried different types.  
> Some older electronic types were not designed to reject even the low 
> level filtered ADSL signal. Have you tried filters in series to get a 
> sharper cut-off? - but that won't help is it is noise in the audio 
> band.
> 
> It does sound like a line problem causing cross-modulation. IME, it's a 
> b****r to get fixed if you don't have a technically competent ISP - and 
> Openreach engineer interested in fixing the fault.  Can the noise be 
> heard at the other end of a phone call?  If so, it is somewhat easier 
> to get the fault acknowledged.  
> 
> Good look - and let us know if you find, or get a fix...

I had EXACTLY these fault symptoms. They were caused by an HR (High 
Resistance) fault on the line, either in the distribution pole or the 
cabinet. The Openreach engineer fixed it by reterminating the 
connections at both points (6 connectors in total - about 10 minutes work).
The engineer didn't actually find which one - it's very difficult to 
trace as noted - but he certainly cleared the fault. 284 hours so far at 
2464Kb, and NO resyncs at all.

The only fly in the ointment is that BT then tried to charge me for the 
callout - but that's another story (see the other thread on this).

John

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> nospam wrote:
>> Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> wrote:
>>
>>> With the modem/router turned off, the phone line is clear, but as 
>>> soon as
>>> I turn the router on and it starts to sync the line starts to sound 
>>> hissy
>>> with the occasional crackle.
>>
>> Very likely a bad connection in your line. Corroded metal to metal 
>> contacts
>> can be non-linear allowing high frequency ADSL signals to mix and produce
>> products in the audio range. 
> 
> Reading the thread I couldn't see a mechanism that would cause this..but 
> yes, you are exactly right here.
> 
> 
>>
>> A dirty connection with non-linear leakage between the lines can give the
>> same effect and is perhaps more likely to crackle but I would expect 
>> it to
>> crackle without an ADSL signal. Dirty connections are sometimes 
>> influenced
>> by humidity and are sometimes temporarily cleared by the higher 
>> voltage of
>> incoming ringing.
>> A friend had the same problem. All the BT tech could do is remake every
>> connection till he found problem, it was in a junction box about 1/4 mile
>> away.
> 
> The problem is getting Openreach and the ISP to accept they have a 
> fault..Test equipment should see the fault though.
> 

Agree with all of that - except the last bit. The usual test kit "BT 
Hawk" and similar MAY see the fault if it is gross, but often won't show 
true intermittents. That's the problem I had with my (now fixed) HR 
fault. The only real way is to monitor the SNR margin over an extended 
time at the DSLAM or the modem. I believe BT has the capability to do 
this, but they don't seem to do so in most cases (Open to correction 
here...)

John

In article ,
John Livingston   wrote:
>The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> nospam wrote:
>>> Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> With the modem/router turned off, the phone line is clear, but as 
>>>> soon as
>>>> I turn the router on and it starts to sync the line starts to sound 
>>>> hissy
>>>> with the occasional crackle.
>>>
>>> Very likely a bad connection in your line. Corroded metal to metal 
>>> contacts
>>> can be non-linear allowing high frequency ADSL signals to mix and produce
>>> products in the audio range. 
>> 
>> Reading the thread I couldn't see a mechanism that would cause this..but 
>> yes, you are exactly right here.
>> 
>> 
>>>
>>> A dirty connection with non-linear leakage between the lines can give the
>>> same effect and is perhaps more likely to crackle but I would expect 
>>> it to
>>> crackle without an ADSL signal. Dirty connections are sometimes 
>>> influenced
>>> by humidity and are sometimes temporarily cleared by the higher 
>>> voltage of
>>> incoming ringing.
>>> A friend had the same problem. All the BT tech could do is remake every
>>> connection till he found problem, it was in a junction box about 1/4 mile
>>> away.
>> 
>> The problem is getting Openreach and the ISP to accept they have a 
>> fault..Test equipment should see the fault though.
>> 
>
>Agree with all of that - except the last bit. The usual test kit "BT 
>Hawk" and similar MAY see the fault if it is gross, but often won't show 
>true intermittents. That's the problem I had with my (now fixed) HR 
>fault. The only real way is to monitor the SNR margin over an extended 
>time at the DSLAM or the modem. I believe BT has the capability to do 
>this, but they don't seem to do so in most cases (Open to correction 
>here...)

Must have been your post I saw earlier - I knew I'd seem someone with a
similar problem!

I've got graphs, but who'll believe me?

  http://unicorn.drogon.net/adsl-day.png

Green is SNR Margin, blue is loop attenuation. It started late last
night by the looks of it.

A copy of the connection history off Entas site:

  http://unicorn.drogon.net/connectionhistory.php.html

BT's online test found nothing wrong (surprise!), but now that I know
"HR Fault" I might be able to wrangle them into action... However it's
been dry (and warm) here for the past week or so - maybe a box somewhere
has eventually dried out and it's made things worse...

Watch this space...

Gordon

On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 11:24:23 +0100, John Weston
<invalid@earlsway.invalid> wrote:

>Do you have any home phone wiring?  If so, this will probably be 
>connected to the back of the master faceplate so your wiring described 
>above, if I understand it correctly, is wrong.  The filter MUST be 
>connected between the incoming phone wires and all your home phone-type 
>equipment and wiring. It must be connected before any home phone 
>wiring, for best effect.  What it appears you have done is to connect a 
>filter into a "box mounted faceplate from Solwise at the end of 5m of 
>cat5 cable from the master socket".  How does this filter remove the 
>ADSL signal from your home phone wiring?
>
>Don't forget that an ADSL filter does nothing between the phone line 
>and the ADSL modem. It only provides a low-pass filter, to remove the 
>ADSL part of the combined signal, between the incoming phone line and 
>the internal telephony wires and devices.  Your description of the 
>problem (the ADSL HF noise) sounds like you don't have a filter between 
>the incoming phone line and your telephone.
>
>That said, your test putting the filter into the test socket and 
>plugging the telephone into the filter's phone socket (you did this, 
>didn't you?), with the modem in the filter's ADSL socket, should have 
>removed the ADSL signal from the phone.  You are close to the exchange, 
>so I'd try putting more than one filter in series with the telephones.  
>This is because filters aren't sharp cut-off devices so the lower 
>frequency ADSL signals may still be audible (I used to work with a 
>"golden ears" who could hear cross-talk at -60dB) You can get filters 
>with sharper cut-off characteristics that perform better on short lines 
>than the standard design.

I can also hear my ADSL modem trying to sync (high frequency noise
roughly following a pattern of 3 secs on 3 secs off) but I assumed I
was only hearing that because my ADSL hasn't been activated yet.

After reading your post, I tried using the two filters I've got in
series and can no longer hear the modem. I'm about 320m from the
exchange, as the crow flies.

It'll be interesting to see if anything changes tomorrow when my ADSL
goes live.

Doughboy

Gordon Henderson wrote:
> 
> I've got graphs, but who'll believe me?
> 
>   http://unicorn.drogon.net/adsl-day.png
> 
> Green is SNR Margin, blue is loop attenuation. It started late last
> night by the looks of it.
> 
> A copy of the connection history off Entas site:
> 
>   http://unicorn.drogon.net/connectionhistory.php.html
> 
> BT's online test found nothing wrong (surprise!), but now that I know
> "HR Fault" I might be able to wrangle them into action... However it's
> been dry (and warm) here for the past week or so - maybe a box somewhere
> has eventually dried out and it's made things worse...
> 
> Watch this space...
> 
> Gordon

Based on my experience - here's some hints -

1  Get a graph of SNR/Time and show line resyncs co-incident with phone 
calls
2  Report it on-line as a Phone fault (noisy / hissing). State 
"Intermittent HR fault" in the notes.
3  When the help desk calls, beware of the standard fob-off ("If the 
fault is clear with the Modem disconnected, then its a fault with your 
equipment / filters"). The help desk are trained to say this. It's flat 
WRONG.
4  Stand your ground and demand an engineer visit.
5  Show the engineer the graphs and point out that an HR will cause this.
6  Ask the engineer to "Reterminate the crimps at the DP and the 
cabinet" (Tea and biscuits usually help at this stage).
7  When the engineer returns and says "Couldn't find a fault", say 
"Well, it's clear now". (Force a couple of resyncs to confirm first).
8  Run a monitor of SNR for a few days to demonstrate fault cleared.
9  When BT hits you with the £99 bill, dispute it, and use the 
before/after evidence to demonstrate that a fault WAS cleared, 
regardless of whether the engineer happened to identify it or not.

John

In article ,
John Livingston   wrote:
>Gordon Henderson wrote:
>> 
>> I've got graphs, but who'll believe me?
>> 
>>   http://unicorn.drogon.net/adsl-day.png
>> 
>> Green is SNR Margin, blue is loop attenuation. It started late last
>> night by the looks of it.
>> 
>> A copy of the connection history off Entas site:
>> 
>>   http://unicorn.drogon.net/connectionhistory.php.html
>> 
>> BT's online test found nothing wrong (surprise!), but now that I know
>> "HR Fault" I might be able to wrangle them into action... However it's
>> been dry (and warm) here for the past week or so - maybe a box somewhere
>> has eventually dried out and it's made things worse...
>> 
>> Watch this space...
>> 
>> Gordon
>
>Based on my experience - here's some hints -
>
>1  Get a graph of SNR/Time and show line resyncs co-incident with phone 
>calls
>2  Report it on-line as a Phone fault (noisy / hissing). State 
>"Intermittent HR fault" in the notes.
>3  When the help desk calls, beware of the standard fob-off ("If the 
>fault is clear with the Modem disconnected, then its a fault with your 
>equipment / filters"). The help desk are trained to say this. It's flat 
>WRONG.
>4  Stand your ground and demand an engineer visit.
>5  Show the engineer the graphs and point out that an HR will cause this.
>6  Ask the engineer to "Reterminate the crimps at the DP and the 
>cabinet" (Tea and biscuits usually help at this stage).
>7  When the engineer returns and says "Couldn't find a fault", say 
>"Well, it's clear now". (Force a couple of resyncs to confirm first).
>8  Run a monitor of SNR for a few days to demonstrate fault cleared.
>9  When BT hits you with the £99 bill, dispute it, and use the 
>before/after evidence to demonstrate that a fault WAS cleared, 
>regardless of whether the engineer happened to identify it or not.

Thanks. Have used their onling thing twice now. Do they actually call,
or do I have to push the "Schedule a visit" button too?

Gordon

Gordon Henderson wrote:
> 
> Thanks. Have used their onling thing twice now. Do they actually call,
> or do I have to push the "Schedule a visit" button too?
> 
> Gordon

Yes - they call. They will give dire warnings about being billed - just 
go with it and clear up the mess afterwards, armed with the evidence (If 
you haven't got hard copy data showing before/after, you haven't a chance).

John

In article ,
John Livingston   wrote:
>Gordon Henderson wrote:
>> 
>> Thanks. Have used their onling thing twice now. Do they actually call,
>> or do I have to push the "Schedule a visit" button too?
>> 
>> Gordon
>
>Yes - they call. They will give dire warnings about being billed - just 
>go with it and clear up the mess afterwards, armed with the evidence (If 
>you haven't got hard copy data showing before/after, you haven't a chance).

OK. Thanks.

Actually, "BT" did call today - their monthly "why aren't you making any
outgoing phone calls via us" call. They weren't intersted in line
faults, alas...

Gordon

On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 16:30:53 +0100, Doughboy  wrote:

>On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 11:24:23 +0100, John Weston
><invalid@earlsway.invalid> wrote:
>
>>Do you have any home phone wiring?  If so, this will probably be 
>>connected to the back of the master faceplate so your wiring described 
>>above, if I understand it correctly, is wrong.  The filter MUST be 
>>connected between the incoming phone wires and all your home phone-type 
>>equipment and wiring. It must be connected before any home phone 
>>wiring, for best effect.  What it appears you have done is to connect a 
>>filter into a "box mounted faceplate from Solwise at the end of 5m of 
>>cat5 cable from the master socket".  How does this filter remove the 
>>ADSL signal from your home phone wiring?
>>
>>Don't forget that an ADSL filter does nothing between the phone line 
>>and the ADSL modem. It only provides a low-pass filter, to remove the 
>>ADSL part of the combined signal, between the incoming phone line and 
>>the internal telephony wires and devices.  Your description of the 
>>problem (the ADSL HF noise) sounds like you don't have a filter between 
>>the incoming phone line and your telephone.
>>
>>That said, your test putting the filter into the test socket and 
>>plugging the telephone into the filter's phone socket (you did this, 
>>didn't you?), with the modem in the filter's ADSL socket, should have 
>>removed the ADSL signal from the phone.  You are close to the exchange, 
>>so I'd try putting more than one filter in series with the telephones.  
>>This is because filters aren't sharp cut-off devices so the lower 
>>frequency ADSL signals may still be audible (I used to work with a 
>>"golden ears" who could hear cross-talk at -60dB) You can get filters 
>>with sharper cut-off characteristics that perform better on short lines 
>>than the standard design.
>
>I can also hear my ADSL modem trying to sync (high frequency noise
>roughly following a pattern of 3 secs on 3 secs off) but I assumed I
>was only hearing that because my ADSL hasn't been activated yet.
>
>After reading your post, I tried using the two filters I've got in
>series and can no longer hear the modem. I'm about 320m from the
>exchange, as the crow flies.
>
>It'll be interesting to see if anything changes tomorrow when my ADSL
>goes live.

Well it's actually come on line a bit early and I can no longer hear
the modem when using just the one filter.

Stats look good to me as well:

Uptime: 0 days, 0:17:49 
 
DSL Type: G.992.5 annex A 
 
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,338 / 22,873 
 
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]: 0.00 / 0.00 
 
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 18.0 
 
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 5.0 / 11.5 
 
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 7.0 / 7.0 
 
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / BDCM 
 
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 11 / 0 
 
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 2 / 0 
 
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0 
 
Loss of Link (Remote): 0 
 
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 2 / 0 
 
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 96 
 
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0 
 
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 21 / 0 


Doughboy

John Livingston wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> nospam wrote:
>>> Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> With the modem/router turned off, the phone line is clear, but as 
>>>> soon as
>>>> I turn the router on and it starts to sync the line starts to sound 
>>>> hissy
>>>> with the occasional crackle.
>>>
>>> Very likely a bad connection in your line. Corroded metal to metal 
>>> contacts
>>> can be non-linear allowing high frequency ADSL signals to mix and 
>>> produce
>>> products in the audio range. 
>>
>> Reading the thread I couldn't see a mechanism that would cause 
>> this..but yes, you are exactly right here.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> A dirty connection with non-linear leakage between the lines can give 
>>> the
>>> same effect and is perhaps more likely to crackle but I would expect 
>>> it to
>>> crackle without an ADSL signal. Dirty connections are sometimes 
>>> influenced
>>> by humidity and are sometimes temporarily cleared by the higher 
>>> voltage of
>>> incoming ringing.
>>> A friend had the same problem. All the BT tech could do is remake every
>>> connection till he found problem, it was in a junction box about 1/4 
>>> mile
>>> away.
>>
>> The problem is getting Openreach and the ISP to accept they have a 
>> fault..Test equipment should see the fault though.
>>
> 
> Agree with all of that - except the last bit. The usual test kit "BT 
> Hawk" and similar MAY see the fault if it is gross, but often won't show 
> true intermittents. That's the problem I had with my (now fixed) HR 
> fault. The only real way is to monitor the SNR margin over an extended 
> time at the DSLAM or the modem. I believe BT has the capability to do 
> this, but they don't seem to do so in most cases (Open to correction 
> here...)
> 
> John
Surely a TDR would find the fault?

Gordon Henderson wrote:
> Heres one that's new to me )-:
>
> Elminated all internal wiring by plugging directly into master
> socket. I have tried 3 different microfilters and 2 differnet
> modem/routers, but the result is the same :-
>
> With the modem/router turned off, the phone line is clear, but as
> soon as I turn the router on and it starts to sync the line starts
> to sound hissy with the occasional crackle. This i swith nothing
> more than a microfilter plugged into the test port, a standard
> analogue phone and Draytek router (one of 2 I've tried - a 2600+
> and a 2600vg)
>
> Broadband is mostly the full 8Mb, although I'm only 0.5Km from the
> exchange, SNR isn't really what I'd expect. Currently seeing:
>
> up: 736000 down: 6880000 snr: 15.5 loopAtt:23.0
>
> So I know that if I call BT they'll just tell me it's my equipment,
> (as in, oh listen, it's silent when you turn off the router so it
> must
> be the router) and charge me for a call-out fee, so is there
> anything that anyone in the past has seen that would cause this?
> Something I
> could tell the BT teletubby that they might belive?
>
> This has happened before - during a period of bad weather, but it's
> been nice here for weeks now!
>
> If anyone has any clues, magic words to say to BT, etc. I'd
> appreciate it.
>

If you have elliminated _ALL_ internal wiring, having removed it from the 
circuit & having checked each filter, to see if one is faulty, oh & remember 
to check that one in the back of the draw which you keep for just in case, 
it could be a HR connection between your socket & the exchange which, be the 
way, are a pitta to find & repair.

I forgot you have checked using a different phone haven't you?

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

>> Agree with all of that - except the last bit. The usual test kit "BT 
>> Hawk" and similar MAY see the fault if it is gross, but often won't 
>> show true intermittents. That's the problem I had with my (now fixed) 
>> HR fault. The only real way is to monitor the SNR margin over an 
>> extended time at the DSLAM or the modem. I believe BT has the 
>> capability to do this, but they don't seem to do so in most cases 
>> (Open to correction here...)
>>
>> John
> Surely a TDR would find the fault?
> 
The tester the Openreach guy had with him clearly WAS a TDR amongst 
other functions. But a TDR will only show up a discontinuity when it 
manifests itself. That is - if the intermittently bad connection is 
conveniently being bad at the time it's tested.
If it's not (sods law in operation), all will look well and the engineer 
will report "Right when tested". A couple of hours later and the dud 
connection decides to go duff. Engineer long gone, callout charge 
pending, and your line playing up again. I've even heard Openreach guys 
(on this forum) say that the pulses from a Hawk can temporarily clear an 
HR fault.

Been there.....

John

Try chaining the microfilters.

The main possibilities I see are: -

1. You have some c**p microfilters.  I bought some semi useless ones from 
Space Computers a few years ago, however the BT supplied ones are normally 
OK.

2. WiFi router?  Could be radio coupling between the router and your phone 
wiring.  - Ever noticed how when a mobile phone goes off nearby, you get 
noises on your phone & PC - that's the phone transmitting.

3. Wires run together after filter?  Could be inductive coupling if so.


"Gordon Henderson" <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> wrote in message 
news:gbq6r0$jic$1@energise.enta.net...
> Heres one that's new to me )-:
>
> Elminated all internal wiring by plugging directly into master socket. I
> have tried 3 different microfilters and 2 differnet modem/routers, but
> the result is the same :-
>
> With the modem/router turned off, the phone line is clear, but as soon as
> I turn the router on and it starts to sync the line starts to sound hissy
> with the occasional crackle. This i swith nothing more than a microfilter
> plugged into the test port, a standard analogue phone and Draytek router
> (one of 2 I've tried - a 2600+ and a 2600vg)
>
> Broadband is mostly the full 8Mb, although I'm only 0.5Km from the
> exchange, SNR isn't really what I'd expect. Currently seeing:
>
> up: 736000 down: 6880000 snr: 15.5 loopAtt:23.0
>
> So I know that if I call BT they'll just tell me it's my equipment,
> (as in, oh listen, it's silent when you turn off the router so it must
> be the router) and charge me for a call-out fee, so is there anything
> that anyone in the past has seen that would cause this? Something I
> could tell the BT teletubby that they might belive?
>
> This has happened before - during a period of bad weather, but it's been
> nice here for weeks now!
>
> If anyone has any clues, magic words to say to BT, etc. I'd appreciate it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Gordon

"Gordon Henderson" <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> wrote in message 
news:gbq6r0$jic$1@energise.enta.net...
> Heres one that's new to me )-:
>
> Elminated all internal wiring by plugging directly into master socket.

Do you have a master socket as you say OR an NTE5  (The one with the 
removeable bottom frontplate see 
http://www.austin-taylor.co.uk/pages/nte5.htm )

I only ask as if you have a master socket (the older type without the 
removeable frontplate) then plugging into the mastersocket does not 
eliminate the internal wiring whereas plugging into the test socket on an 
NTE5 should if wired correctly eliminate the internal wiring.

Just wanted to clarify thats all.

John Livingston wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>>> Agree with all of that - except the last bit. The usual test kit
>>> "BT Hawk" and similar MAY see the fault if it is gross, but often
>>> won't show true intermittents. That's the problem I had with my
>>> (now fixed) HR fault. The only real way is to monitor the SNR
>>> margin over an extended time at the DSLAM or the modem. I believe
>>> BT has the capability to do this, but they don't seem to do so in
>>> most cases (Open to correction here...)
>>>
>>> John
>> Surely a TDR would find the fault?
>>
> The tester the Openreach guy had with him clearly WAS a TDR amongst
> other functions. But a TDR will only show up a discontinuity when it
> manifests itself. That is - if the intermittently bad connection is
> conveniently being bad at the time it's tested.
> If it's not (sods law in operation), all will look well and the
> engineer will report "Right when tested". A couple of hours later
> and the dud connection decides to go duff. Engineer long gone,
> callout charge pending, and your line playing up again. I've even
> heard Openreach guys (on this forum) say that the pulses from a
> Hawk can temporarily clear an HR fault.
>
> Been there.....
>
> John

It may bot show the blasted thing in the first place, let alone fix it. 
There was a theory doing the rounds that if you put your TDR on the end of 
the line then rung it a peak would appear when ringing current is sent down 
the line......

Never actually seen it work though...

In article <gbq6r0$jic$1@energise.enta.net>,
Gordon Henderson  <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> wrote:
>Heres one that's new to me )-:

etc.

Hi,

Thanks for everyones replies and suggestions.

Can I ask you you stop speculating on the hardware I have & the tests,
etc. I think we've more or less established that it's a fault outside
the premises.

FWIW: It's an NTE5. Fitted new by the BT man when I had home highway
installed some 6.5 years back. (And when I cancelled the HH, BT just
left me with everything).

I have plugged 3 different routers into the test socket behind the
faceplate.  Tried 4 different micro-filters and yesterday the symptoms
were that as soon as the ADSL modems started their negotiation phase and
eventual synchronisation, I'd start to hear hiss and crackles on the
phone line and the ADSL connectivity would be intermittent - it would
always re-connect at 8Mb or close to it, it just wouldn't be reliable.
Even without a micro filter fitted, connection wasn't reliable. There is
no Wi-Fi in the vicinity. (One router does have Wi-Fi, but it's turned
off and the antennae removed) The nearest Wi-Fi is on the other side of
the building through several feet of Dartmoor granite.

The general consensus is that it's a High Resistance fault.

However, this is the 2nd time it's happened in the past year, and the
last time was also during an extended dry/warm spell.

Since last night, it's been wet/rainy here. I live in the 2nd wettest town
in Devon,  and guess what - it's been stable. Still a high SNR margin,
but the ADSL has remained online.

I reported the fault twice via BT and their online test facility, and
they've yet to call me back.  Reported it via Entanet too and they've
suggested a "splitter card fault at the exchange" and have reported it
to BT.

So I'll wait a day and see what happens - my suspicion is that nothing
will happen, or that even if BT did come 

Thanks,

Gordon

Gordon Henderson wrote:

> 
> FWIW: It's an NTE5. Fitted new by the BT man when I had home highway
> installed some 6.5 years back. (And when I cancelled the HH, BT just
> left me with everything).
> 


Hi Gordon

Not going to get too much into this but I just noticed you say you had 
HH once and BT left all the bits.

Did they disconnect ALL the HH equipment when you ceased it or is some 
of it still hanging across the line?
Usually the HH was wired straight to the incoming wires and an NTE 
extended out from it for Line 1 (the one that still worked when the HH 
failed due to mains failure).

When I ceased mine I forget if I reconnected the incoming wire direct to 
the NTE (OK naughty me but I had already provided the proper BT type 
external wiring cable under the floor from the connection block outside 
to where I wanted the HH box and the BT man who installed it was very 
gratefull!!)and the BT man just collected the other bits later.

You should make sure all HH bits are disconnected and the NTE stright on 
the line.

Good luck

Mike

In article , m   wrote:
>
>
>Gordon Henderson wrote:
>
>> 
>> FWIW: It's an NTE5. Fitted new by the BT man when I had home highway
>> installed some 6.5 years back. (And when I cancelled the HH, BT just
>> left me with everything).
>> 
>
>
>Hi Gordon
>
>Not going to get too much into this but I just noticed you say you had 
>HH once and BT left all the bits.
>
>Did they disconnect ALL the HH equipment when you ceased it or is some 
>of it still hanging across the line?

I disconnected it all. They didn't even bother with a site visit.

There was a period (a year or so) between not having HH and having ADSL -
I had Wi-Fi provided broadband as part of a local Wi-Fi broadband system
(Which I built and ran)

>Usually the HH was wired straight to the incoming wires and an NTE 
>extended out from it for Line 1 (the one that still worked when the HH 
>failed due to mains failure).

As far as I recall, he punched an extension cable into the existing
old master box and ran this into the cpuboard under the stairs into
another NTE5 (with a 'BT Digital' logo on the faceplate) and this one
went into the HH box. House phones at the time were plugged into one of
the analogue sockets and server/router into one of the digital ones -
this was in the days of the flat-rate numbers and co-operating ISPs to
give me the equivalent of a 64K leased line connection... (Ah, them were
the days - not!)

When I eventually did get ADSL, I had terrible bandwidth issues -
eventually traced to a "VP" problem in the exchange, but during this
time my ISP did have BT come out and at that point they installed an
NTE5. I wasn't charged for that visit!

>When I ceased mine I forget if I reconnected the incoming wire direct to 
>the NTE (OK naughty me but I had already provided the proper BT type 
>external wiring cable under the floor from the connection block outside 
>to where I wanted the HH box and the BT man who installed it was very 
>gratefull!!)and the BT man just collected the other bits later.

I re-used the cat-3 cable the BT man had put in until some months back
when I re-routed everything and replaced it with cat-5.

Connection has now been up for 41 hours, but everything is in the dining
room (where the BT cable comes in) Fortunately wifey is on holiday so
won't mind the floor being littered with rotuers, switches and actually
anything visibie at all that's got nothing to do with dining... However
it's sunny today, so-far... Probably not enough to dry out the lines
though!

Cheers,

Gordon

>
> Since last night, it's been wet/rainy here. I live in the 2nd wettest
> town in Devon,  and guess what - it's been stable. Still a high SNR
> margin, but the ADSL has remained online.
>

Might have the wrong end of the stick here but you say high SNR like its a 
bad thing.

Looking at your sync of nearly 7Mb and with the high SNR you have, if you 
went to someone like O2 with ADSL2+ you'd get double your download speed. 
Maybe a bit more.

In your case what appears to have happened is the BT line management has 
automatically upped the SNR because you've had some period of instability. 
When you get the fault fixed, the minimum SNR should reduce on its own but 
you'll need at least 14 days without a resync and you need to ensure 
interleaving is off - your ISP can check and change that for you.  Even then 
it might not reduce on its own.  You ISP can try and get BT to reset it to 
the usual minimum of 6dB (you won't get that low.  I'd guess 12dB is your 
norm for 8Mb).  If your ISP can't do anything then you can change to an 
unbundled ISP - O2 is currently the best ADSL2+ provider - or get a router 
where you can manipulate the SNR using the DMT tool.  Or, if WBC is enabled 
in your exchange you can move to an ADSL2+ product where BT allow the 
minimum SNR to be controlled by the ISP rather than the hardware in the 
exchange.

-- 

WCZ

In article <gbv87q$jh4$1@aioe.org>, WCZ  wrote:
>>
>> Since last night, it's been wet/rainy here. I live in the 2nd wettest
>> town in Devon,  and guess what - it's been stable. Still a high SNR
>> margin, but the ADSL has remained online.
>>
>
>Might have the wrong end of the stick here but you say high SNR like its a 
>bad thing.
>
>Looking at your sync of nearly 7Mb and with the high SNR you have, if you 
>went to someone like O2 with ADSL2+ you'd get double your download speed. 
>Maybe a bit more.
>
>In your case what appears to have happened is the BT line management has 
>automatically upped the SNR because you've had some period of instability. 
>When you get the fault fixed, the minimum SNR should reduce on its own but 
>you'll need at least 14 days without a resync and you need to ensure 
>interleaving is off - your ISP can check and change that for you.

Interleaving is off, as an Entanet reseller, I can control this myself.

> Even then 
>it might not reduce on its own.  You ISP can try and get BT to reset it to 
>the usual minimum of 6dB (you won't get that low.  I'd guess 12dB is your 
>norm for 8Mb).  If your ISP can't do anything then you can change to an 
>unbundled ISP - O2 is currently the best ADSL2+ provider - or get a router 
>where you can manipulate the SNR using the DMT tool.  Or, if WBC is enabled 
>in your exchange you can move to an ADSL2+ product where BT allow the 
>minimum SNR to be controlled by the ISP rather than the hardware in the 
>exchange.

Thanks for this.

Living in rural Devon, on the edge of Dartmoor, the chances of my exchange
ever being unbundled are zero. And in any case, I don't (yet) trust
anyone other than an ISP using the BT Wholseale network. I'll wait for BT
to 21CN my exchange - sometime in the next 5 years and stick with
BT for the copper & backhaul and Entanet for the Internet.

Gordon

Well following up my own posts again with the latest update: Enta are
convinced it's a problem with the splitter card in the exchange and have
more or less rules out a HR fault because they say:

  "I would not say
  that this is a resistance fault as your line is achieving approximately
  the correct speeds for your distance from the exchange. If the attenuation
  (AKA resistance) was too high then your sync speed would be much lower. If
  it was fluctuating badly then we would see low sync events on the history
  of this line, which we currently do not. It appears that you may be able
  to achieve higher sync rates if your SNR was slightly lower. It is likely
  this high because of the noise that appears on the line intermittently."

Bother.

The next step now is a "SFI" visit - however this is currnetly costing
£160 + VAT and I'm not prepared to pay that right now.

Time to tidy up the dining room and live with it for now.

Gordon

Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> wrote:

>Well following up my own posts again with the latest update: Enta are
>convinced it's a problem with the splitter card in the exchange and have
>more or less rules out a HR fault because they say:
>
>  "I would not say
>  that this is a resistance fault as your line is achieving approximately
>  the correct speeds for your distance from the exchange. If the attenuation
>  (AKA resistance) was too high then your sync speed would be much lower. If
>  it was fluctuating badly then we would see low sync events on the history
>  of this line, which we currently do not. It appears that you may be able
>  to achieve higher sync rates if your SNR was slightly lower. It is likely
>  this high because of the noise that appears on the line intermittently."

My friend who had this audible hiss problem had no problem with his ADSL
and no noticeable difference in line attenuation or SNR after it was fixed.
--

In article <48e8a286$0$2510$da0feed9@news.zen.co.uk>,
Graham J  wrote:

>As others have explained here the cause is probably a high resistance joint 
>somewhere along the line.

Yes, and I'm grateful.

>A good ISP should be able to recognise this and call out BT to fix it. 

Well - I have a good ISP - well, mostly, but they insist it's not that
and is something else, so we reached a sort of sticking point, and they
did contact BT who say there isn't a fault on the line.

>Clearly if the symptom is intermittent you can't guarantee that you will be 
>able to demonstrate the fault to the BT technician, and more to the point 
>the BT technician will not be able to demonstrate it with his own equipment; 
>nor will you be able to confirm that the fault has been fixed.

That's the issue - by the time I see the fault, do the tests, get Enta
to check, get BT to check the fault goes away and I'll be left with a
£160+VAT call-out fee if I take it further.

It'd be cheaper for me to get a new line installed, migrate my ADSL to
the new line and port my old number to VoIP and be done with it.

Actually... You know, that's somewhat drastic, but not a bad idea. I
wonder if BT have deals going on 2nd lines these days...

>However if you can sync at over 7 mbits/sec then you're better off than 99% 
>of broadband users!

Yes, but that's not the point. When (if) my exchange is 2+ enabled then my
neighbours will be basking in the glory of 16mb/sec+ connections, but as
I can barely get 8Mb that's what I'll be stuck at, and whenever we get a
spell of good weather, I'll get intermittent/bad service, and again, by
the time I get BT to actually investigate it, it will have gone as I
live in the 2nd wettest town in Devon )-:

Gordon

In article <48e8dd81$0$26088$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>,
Graham J  wrote:
>
>"Gordon Henderson" <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> wrote in message 
>news:gcad48$2fa8$1@energise.enta.net...
>> In article <48e8a286$0$2510$da0feed9@news.zen.co.uk>,
>> Graham J  wrote:
>>
>>>As others have explained here the cause is probably a high resistance 
>>>joint
>>>somewhere along the line.
>>
>> Yes, and I'm grateful.
>>
>>>A good ISP should be able to recognise this and call out BT to fix it.
>>
>> Well - I have a good ISP - well, mostly, but they insist it's not that
>> and is something else, so we reached a sort of sticking point,
>
>I suggest you try a more competent ISP.  Ring the sales desk of your 
>prospective choice, say you're thinking of taking up their service but you 
>want to be sure that they will resolve a fault, so ask to speak to somebody 
>technical.  If they can't find somebody who understands the issue - try the 
>same question on another ISP and so un until you find one who does 
>understand.

As an Entanet reseller, I find them otherwise excellent and they have
managed to poke BT on one or 2 occasions when some of my customers have
had faults on their lines - however these have all been quite obvious
faults. I think this one is obscure enough that it might give any ISP
a bit of a headache when dealing with BT.

>Andrews & Arnold will supply a phone line (calls disabled) specifically for 
>broadband, and will get it all working. At a later stage you can transfer 
>the line to another supplier so you can use it for conventional voice calls.

If I do go down the 2nd phone line route, I'll get it from BT and
I'll be more than happy to pay then the £10.50 a monnth it'll cost me.
I'd really much rather deal with BT direct than through an OLO. I also
run my own VoIP company, so guess who I use for that ;-)

Gordon