I cant get my head round this.

I have two phone lines, one of which is also broadband enabled, and a 
small PABX.

On the broadband enabled line, on occasion I cant dial out. I get dial 
tone, but when I actually dial, the 'your number is not recognised' 
message comes back after only a few digits are dialled.


The broadband works fine. Incoming calls are fine and noise free.

A telephone plugged into the filter bypassing the PABX is no better.

Removing the router from the filter fixes the problem entirely.

Sometimes plugging/replugging the router in again fixes it for a while.

Now I am not so much looking for a fix, as to understand how anything on 
the far side of a filter can affect the blasted analogue side..after all 
the filter is there to utterly disconnect audio stuff from the 
broadband...so there should BE no effect on audio band from anything on 
the DSL side of the filter..

On Fri, 05 Sep 2008 06:25:15 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

>Now I am not so much looking for a fix, as to understand how anything on 
>the far side of a filter can affect the blasted analogue side..after all 
>the filter is there to utterly disconnect audio stuff from the 
>broadband...so there should BE no effect on audio band from anything on 
>the DSL side of the filter..

You have it the wrong way round. The filter is there to disconnect
broadband from the audio stuff. The DSL signal is directly connected,
only the phone side is filtered.

-- 
Regards - Rodney Pont
The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
please send any emails to the address below
e-mail	ngpsm4 (at) infohitsystems (dot) ltd (dot) uk

Rodney Pont wrote:
> On Fri, 05 Sep 2008 06:25:15 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> 
>> Now I am not so much looking for a fix, as to understand how anything on 
>> the far side of a filter can affect the blasted analogue side..after all 
>> the filter is there to utterly disconnect audio stuff from the 
>> broadband...so there should BE no effect on audio band from anything on 
>> the DSL side of the filter..
> 
> You have it the wrong way round. The filter is there to disconnect
> broadband from the audio stuff. The DSL signal is directly connected,
> only the phone side is filtered.
> 
isn't that what I said? anyway a router that shorts audio cannot exactly 
be one that would allow normal voice to operate.

On Fri, 05 Sep 2008 08:29:10 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

>Rodney Pont wrote:
>> On Fri, 05 Sep 2008 06:25:15 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> 
>>> Now I am not so much looking for a fix, as to understand how anything on 
>>> the far side of a filter can affect the blasted analogue side..after all 
>>> the filter is there to utterly disconnect audio stuff from the 
>>> broadband...so there should BE no effect on audio band from anything on 
>>> the DSL side of the filter..
>> 
>> You have it the wrong way round. The filter is there to disconnect
>> broadband from the audio stuff. The DSL signal is directly connected,
>> only the phone side is filtered.
>> 
>isn't that what I said? anyway a router that shorts audio cannot exactly 
>be one that would allow normal voice to operate.

No, not really. The filter can't 'utterly disconnect audio stuff from
the broadband' since the audio has to go down the telephone line as
well and there is no filtering on the DSL side.

I didn't notice it was yourself Mr Philosopher otherwise I probably
wouldn't have  replied since you know about this stuff already :-)

Read the top paragraph again as if it wasn't written by yourself and
you will see what I mean. Anyway it sounds like the modem has had it.

-- 
Regards - Rodney Pont
The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
please send any emails to the address below
e-mail	ngpsm4 (at) infohitsystems (dot) ltd (dot) uk

> >>> Now I am not so much looking for a fix, as to understand how anything
> >>> on
> >>> the far side of a filter can affect the blasted analogue side..after
> >>> all
> >>> the filter is there to utterly disconnect audio stuff from the
> >>> broadband...so there should BE no effect on audio band from anything
> >>> on
> >>> the DSL side of the filter..

The DSL side is connected by solid wires straight through to the
phone line, there is no filtering on the DSL, so short out the DSL
you short out the phone as well, so no phone or DSL.
If you short out the filtered phone side you will stop or severely
downgrade the DSL.
So load up the phone side with extensions, extension ringers,
Sky box, fax machine, answering machine, caller ID unit,
amplifier for the hard of hearing, and wonder why you BB
is down to dial up speed.

"The Natural Philosopher" <a@b.c> wrote in message 
news:1220592320.26000.0@proxy02.news.clara.net...
>I cant get my head round this.
>
> I have two phone lines, one of which is also broadband enabled, and a 
> small PABX.
>
> On the broadband enabled line, on occasion I cant dial out. I get dial 
> tone, but when I actually dial, the 'your number is not recognised' 
> message comes back after only a few digits are dialled.
>
>
> The broadband works fine. Incoming calls are fine and noise free.
>
> A telephone plugged into the filter bypassing the PABX is no better.
>
> Removing the router from the filter fixes the problem entirely.
>
> Sometimes plugging/replugging the router in again fixes it for a while.
>
> Now I am not so much looking for a fix, as to understand how anything on 
> the far side of a filter can affect the blasted analogue side..after all 
> the filter is there to utterly disconnect audio stuff from the 
> broadband...so there should BE no effect on audio band from anything on 
> the DSL side of the filter..

Try this, best done with a phone directly on the line, and the PABX 
disconnected.
Lift receiver dial the single digit "1" does it break dialtone?
Hang up and repeat with "2" and so forth. Include * and  # for good measure.
It might not explain why it is happening but it may tell you which digits 
are
not being recognised.
Perhaps "0" as an initial digit is OK and local
calls beginning with a non zero digit are problematic, a work-around
might be to dial with STD code.
My guess is that it will be the initial digit in the
string because it had to "compete" with the dialtone coming from
the linecard in the exchange.
I am sure there are some audio level
parameters that BT should set depending on how long the line
is, and the presence of the ADSL signal is having a small affect
on the speech line condition, but enough to push things over the
threshold of a DTMF digit or two not being recognised.

If, after conducting your own tests you conclude that
I possibly might be on the right track, (and it's only a
hunch at this point) then I suggest you report it to
BT as a PSTN fault and ask them to check the System X/Y
parameters for anything that might be non-standard.
and that you don't need a chargeable engineers visit,
and of course don't mention ADSL, (because it never occurred to
you that it was making a difference ;-)  )


-- 
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

Graham. wrote:
> "The Natural Philosopher" <a@b.c> wrote in message 
> news:1220592320.26000.0@proxy02.news.clara.net...
>> I cant get my head round this.
>>
>> I have two phone lines, one of which is also broadband enabled, and a 
>> small PABX.
>>
>> On the broadband enabled line, on occasion I cant dial out. I get dial 
>> tone, but when I actually dial, the 'your number is not recognised' 
>> message comes back after only a few digits are dialled.
>>
>>
>> The broadband works fine. Incoming calls are fine and noise free.
>>
>> A telephone plugged into the filter bypassing the PABX is no better.
>>
>> Removing the router from the filter fixes the problem entirely.
>>
>> Sometimes plugging/replugging the router in again fixes it for a while.
>>
>> Now I am not so much looking for a fix, as to understand how anything on 
>> the far side of a filter can affect the blasted analogue side..after all 
>> the filter is there to utterly disconnect audio stuff from the 
>> broadband...so there should BE no effect on audio band from anything on 
>> the DSL side of the filter..
> 
> Try this, best done with a phone directly on the line, and the PABX 
> disconnected.
> Lift receiver dial the single digit "1" does it break dialtone?
> Hang up and repeat with "2" and so forth. Include * and  # for good measure.
> It might not explain why it is happening but it may tell you which digits 
> are
> not being recognised.
> Perhaps "0" as an initial digit is OK and local
> calls beginning with a non zero digit are problematic, a work-around
> might be to dial with STD code.

Its not consistent.

e.g. 50% of the time a call to 01603 xxxxxxx 2 halts after the 3..50% it 
doesn't..it may get further..or not.


> My guess is that it will be the initial digit in the
> string because it had to "compete" with the dialtone coming from
> the linecard in the exchange.
> I am sure there are some audio level
> parameters that BT should set depending on how long the line
> is, and the presence of the ADSL signal is having a small affect
> on the speech line condition, but enough to push things over the
> threshold of a DTMF digit or two not being recognised.
> 
it looks like pretty nasty attenuation on all the digits.

> If, after conducting your own tests you conclude that
> I possibly might be on the right track, (and it's only a
> hunch at this point) then I suggest you report it to
> BT as a PSTN fault and ask them to check the System X/Y
> parameters for anything that might be non-standard.
> and that you don't need a chargeable engineers visit,
> and of course don't mention ADSL, (because it never occurred to
> you that it was making a difference ;-)  )
> 
> 

I already phoned em up and they say its my router and not their problem.

In message , The Natural
Philosopher <a@b.c> writes

>On the broadband enabled line, on occasion I cant dial out. I get dial
>tone, but when I actually dial, the 'your number is not recognised'
>message comes back after only a few digits are dialled.


I *frequently* get this ...

after 3 or 4 re-dials I *usually* get through, and on *exactly* the same
digits ...

?telephone routing problem?


        I have also had my calls routed to the wrong person; not
*dialled* wrongly, *routed* wrongly ...

        it's intermittent ... so *very* difficult to pin down :-(
-- 
Rex M F Smith

In message , The Natural 
Philosopher <a@b.c> writes

>I already phoned em up and they say its my router and not their problem.

I neither have PABX nor a router ... that's a "data point" for you; I 
get the problem on both 'phone handsets (one line, one extension 'phone)

and since it is *intermittent* ... it suggests it is NOT the handsets
-- 
Rex M F Smith

Rex M F Smith wrote:
> In message , The Natural 
> Philosopher <a@b.c> writes
> 
>> I already phoned em up and they say its my router and not their problem.
> 
> I neither have PABX nor a router ... that's a "data point" for you; I 
> get the problem on both 'phone handsets (one line, one extension 'phone)
> 
> and since it is *intermittent* ... it suggests it is NOT the handsets

Ah. It may simply be low gain on the dialling part of the line then.

And the router is the last straw...

"The Natural Philosopher" <a@b.c> wrote in message 
news:1220683323.32182.2@proxy01.news.clara.net...
> Rex M F Smith wrote:
>> In message , The Natural 
>> Philosopher <a@b.c> writes
>>
>>> I already phoned em up and they say its my router and not their problem.
>>
>> I neither have PABX nor a router ... that's a "data point" for you; I get 
>> the problem on both 'phone handsets (one line, one extension 'phone)
>>
>> and since it is *intermittent* ... it suggests it is NOT the handsets
>
> Ah. It may simply be low gain on the dialling part of the line then.
>
> And the router is the last straw...

That is my feeling at the moment, or even set with excessive gain.
Try again.
Remember, mentioning ADSL when reporting what is basiclly
a PSTN fault is *always* the kiss of death.

-- 
Graham.

%Profound_observation%