On Thu, 04 Sep 2008 15:07:30 +0100, Eeyore passed an empty day by writing:

> "A.N. Onymous Esq" wrote:
> 
>> What would people recommend as the best free WYSIWYG HTML Editor?
> 
> Leave out WYSIWYG and notepad is the answer.
> 
> That's how I do it.
> 
> Graham
I do love anal responses like this. It is not anal because he is 
suggesting to use a text editor, rather a crappy windows piece of s*it - 
like this is going to give him some kind of credibility.

How about you jump on *nix box and do it with vi then, merlin!

It take a bit more than using notepad to debastardise html bastasrdised 
by windows software, and running 'mozilla bollox' on XP to add any 
credance to such a pointless twat of a reply.

The answer is anything you can get along with and that produces clean 
code. So, compromise. Amaya is ok, Kompozer is ok but there is a learning 
curve with them. Most web hacks only use them for basic layout and then 
tweak everything by hand. Finally, they make multiple style-sheets to 
cope with the various bastardisations of IE, and the more compliant 
browsers like Opera, Safari & Firefox.
-- 
powered by Linux - bastardized by Window$ *THE* legacy operating system 
for the 20th Century - givemespam@wibblywobblyteapot.co.uk

Klunk wrote:
> On Thu, 04 Sep 2008 15:07:30 +0100, Eeyore passed an empty day by writing:
> 
>> "A.N. Onymous Esq" wrote:
>>
>>> What would people recommend as the best free WYSIWYG HTML Editor?
>> Leave out WYSIWYG and notepad is the answer.
>>
>> That's how I do it.
>>
>> Graham
> I do love anal responses like this. It is not anal because he is 
> suggesting to use a text editor, rather a crappy windows piece of s*it - 
> like this is going to give him some kind of credibility.
> 
> How about you jump on *nix box and do it with vi then, merlin!
> 

been there and done that..


> It take a bit more than using notepad to debastardise html bastasrdised 
> by windows software, and running 'mozilla bollox' on XP to add any 
> credance to such a pointless twat of a reply.
> 
> The answer is anything you can get along with and that produces clean 
> code. So, compromise. Amaya is ok, Kompozer is ok but there is a learning 
> curve with them. Most web hacks only use them for basic layout and then 
> tweak everything by hand. Finally, they make multiple style-sheets to 
> cope with the various bastardisations of IE, and the more compliant 
> browsers like Opera, Safari & Firefox.

the real point is that HTML is not, never has been and despite many 
extensions to try and make it so, is still not wysiwyg.

Ergo the concept of a WYSIWG editor for it, is, at best, marketing 
hyperbole, and at worst, arrant nonsense.

Having cleared that point, there are a range of editors that go from vi 
upwards to obscene things like FrontPage that splatter an exponetially 
increasing  amount of crap into the HTML in an attempt to force the 
browser to display it in one way only.

Klunk wrote:
> How about you jump on *nix box and do it with vi then, merlin!

Shouldn't that be emacs?

<g,d&rvvvvf>

Owain

On Thu, 4 Sep 2008 23:10:27 UTC, Owain  
wrote:

> Klunk wrote:
> > How about you jump on *nix box and do it with vi then, merlin!
> 
> Shouldn't that be emacs?
> 
> <g,d&rvvvvf>

Ha! Use ed....

-- 
Bob Eager
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

Bob Eager wrote:
> On Thu, 4 Sep 2008 23:10:27 UTC, Owain  
> wrote:
> 
>> Klunk wrote:
>>> How about you jump on *nix box and do it with vi then, merlin!
>> Shouldn't that be emacs?
>>
>> <g,d&rvvvvf>
> 
> Ha! Use ed....
> 
..or echo..;-)

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Klunk wrote:
> > Eeyore passed an empty day by writing:
> >> "A.N. Onymous Esq" wrote:
> >>
> >>> What would people recommend as the best free WYSIWYG HTML Editor?
> >> Leave out WYSIWYG and notepad is the answer.
> >>
> >> That's how I do it.
> >>
> > I do love anal responses like this. It is not anal because he is
> > suggesting to use a text editor, rather a crappy windows piece of s*it -
> > like this is going to give him some kind of credibility.
> >
> > How about you jump on *nix box and do it with vi then, merlin!
>
> been there and done that..
>
> > It take a bit more than using notepad to debastardise html bastasrdised
> > by windows software, and running 'mozilla bollox' on XP to add any
> > credance to such a pointless twat of a reply.
> >
> > The answer is anything you can get along with and that produces clean
> > code. So, compromise. Amaya is ok, Kompozer is ok but there is a learning
> > curve with them. Most web hacks only use them for basic layout and then
> > tweak everything by hand. Finally, they make multiple style-sheets to
> > cope with the various bastardisations of IE, and the more compliant
> > browsers like Opera, Safari & Firefox.
>
> the real point is that HTML is not, never has been and despite many
> extensions to try and make it so, is still not wysiwyg.
>
> Ergo the concept of a WYSIWG editor for it, is, at best, marketing
> hyperbole, and at worst, arrant nonsense.

SO correct. I had to explain that to my 'client' why it can look a bit different
on one PC to another.


> Having cleared that point, there are a range of editors that go from vi
> upwards to obscene things like FrontPage that splatter an exponetially
> increasing  amount of crap into the HTML in an attempt to force the
> browser to display it in one way only.

And doubtless often make it non-compliant in the process one way or another.

Graham

Bob Eager wrote:

> Owain wrote:
> > Klunk wrote:
> > > How about you jump on *nix box and do it with vi then, merlin!
> >
> > Shouldn't that be emacs?
> >
> > <g,d&rvvvvf>
>
> Ha! Use ed....

Is that like edlin under DOS ?

Graham

Eeyore wrote:
> 
> Bob Eager wrote:
> 
>> Owain wrote:
>>> Klunk wrote:
>>>> How about you jump on *nix box and do it with vi then, merlin!
>>> Shouldn't that be emacs?
>>>
>>> <g,d&rvvvvf>
>> Ha! Use ed....
> 
> Is that like edlin under DOS ?
> 

more or less, yes.

Unix editors go back to pre CRT days, when your interactive terminal was 
a teletype.

So you picked a line and edited it. Probably by using commands like 
'take the second s in the line and change to an a please'

Vi is bolt on interface on top of ed that makes it display 25 lines at a 
a time..a screenful.

And gives some basic cursor movement around them, but it still has the 
essentials of a line oriented editor.


Real unix gurus who have lost everything bu the shell, and need to edit 
a config file, will use commands like

echo "a very large string with escaped linefeeds in it " > myconfigfile.


> Graham
>

On Fri, 5 Sep 2008 04:49:57 UTC, The Natural Philosopher <a@b.c> wrote:

> Eeyore wrote:
> > 
> > Bob Eager wrote:
> > 
> >> Owain wrote:
> >>> Klunk wrote:
> >>>> How about you jump on *nix box and do it with vi then, merlin!
> >>> Shouldn't that be emacs?
> >>>
> >>> <g,d&rvvvvf>
> >> Ha! Use ed....
> > 
> > Is that like edlin under DOS ?
> > 
> 
> more or less, yes.

But *considerably* more powerful.
-- 
Bob Eager
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

On  5-Sep-2008, Eeyore  wrote:

> SO correct. I had to explain that to my 'client' why it can look a bit
> different
> on one PC to another.

Not a bit, very different in some cases.
If you don't take into account screen resolution, and the
ever expanding size of monitors with high resolutions,
your optimised for your 1024 x 768 can look like a small
postcard in the top left hand corner of a high res monitor.
For fun try nesting tables, coloured boarders, and
getting text to flow round images, across a wide range of
resolutions and browsers.
W3C says its fine, perfectly valid HTML, it just
doesn't display the same, so much for standardisation.

Bob Eager wrote:
>> Shouldn't that be emacs?
> Ha! Use ed....

I remember writing university essays. In vecce. On, the hours I spent 
splitting and rejoining lines ...

'spose I should have been grateful for the v in vecce.

Owain

On Thu, 04 Sep 2008 23:08:54 +0100, The Natural Philosopher <a@b.c> wrote:

>Klunk wrote:
>> On Thu, 04 Sep 2008 15:07:30 +0100, Eeyore passed an empty day by writing:
>> 
>>> "A.N. Onymous Esq" wrote:
>>>
>>>> What would people recommend as the best free WYSIWYG HTML Editor?
>>> Leave out WYSIWYG and notepad is the answer.
>>>
>>> That's how I do it.
>>>
>>> Graham
>> I do love anal responses like this. It is not anal because he is 
>> suggesting to use a text editor, rather a crappy windows piece of s*it - 
>> like this is going to give him some kind of credibility.
>> 
>> How about you jump on *nix box and do it with vi then, merlin!
>> 
>
>been there and done that..
>
>
>> It take a bit more than using notepad to debastardise html bastasrdised 
>> by windows software, and running 'mozilla bollox' on XP to add any 
>> credance to such a pointless twat of a reply.
>> 
>> The answer is anything you can get along with and that produces clean 
>> code. So, compromise. Amaya is ok, Kompozer is ok but there is a learning 
>> curve with them. Most web hacks only use them for basic layout and then 
>> tweak everything by hand. Finally, they make multiple style-sheets to 
>> cope with the various bastardisations of IE, and the more compliant 
>> browsers like Opera, Safari & Firefox.
>
>the real point is that HTML is not, never has been and despite many 
>extensions to try and make it so, is still not wysiwyg.
>
>Ergo the concept of a WYSIWG editor for it, is, at best, marketing 
>hyperbole, and at worst, arrant nonsense.
>
>Having cleared that point, there are a range of editors that go from vi 
>upwards to obscene things like FrontPage that splatter an exponetially 
>increasing  amount of crap into the HTML in an attempt to force the 
>browser to display it in one way only.

I suppose you still use a slate and stylus for your own notes!

Oddi wrote:
> On Thu, 04 Sep 2008 23:08:54 +0100, The Natural Philosopher <a@b.c> wrote:
> 
>> Klunk wrote:
>>> On Thu, 04 Sep 2008 15:07:30 +0100, Eeyore passed an empty day by writing:
>>>
>>>> "A.N. Onymous Esq" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> What would people recommend as the best free WYSIWYG HTML Editor?
>>>> Leave out WYSIWYG and notepad is the answer.
>>>>
>>>> That's how I do it.
>>>>
>>>> Graham
>>> I do love anal responses like this. It is not anal because he is 
>>> suggesting to use a text editor, rather a crappy windows piece of s*it - 
>>> like this is going to give him some kind of credibility.
>>>
>>> How about you jump on *nix box and do it with vi then, merlin!
>>>
>> been there and done that..
>>
>>
>>> It take a bit more than using notepad to debastardise html bastasrdised 
>>> by windows software, and running 'mozilla bollox' on XP to add any 
>>> credance to such a pointless twat of a reply.
>>>
>>> The answer is anything you can get along with and that produces clean 
>>> code. So, compromise. Amaya is ok, Kompozer is ok but there is a learning 
>>> curve with them. Most web hacks only use them for basic layout and then 
>>> tweak everything by hand. Finally, they make multiple style-sheets to 
>>> cope with the various bastardisations of IE, and the more compliant 
>>> browsers like Opera, Safari & Firefox.
>> the real point is that HTML is not, never has been and despite many 
>> extensions to try and make it so, is still not wysiwyg.
>>
>> Ergo the concept of a WYSIWG editor for it, is, at best, marketing 
>> hyperbole, and at worst, arrant nonsense.
>>
>> Having cleared that point, there are a range of editors that go from vi 
>> upwards to obscene things like FrontPage that splatter an exponetially 
>> increasing  amount of crap into the HTML in an attempt to force the 
>> browser to display it in one way only.
> 
> I suppose you still use a slate and stylus for your own notes!
> 
notebook and pencil mainly.

Uses less power and costs less than a pc notebook...and spares are 
available worldwide.


It's probably a Law somewhere that 99% of invocations of a given piece 
of software use less than 1% of its 'features'

Which probably means that 99% of all computer applications could run on 
1/10th of a PDP-11..;-)

On Fri, 5 Sep 2008 11:26:25 UTC, Owain  
wrote:

> Bob Eager wrote:
> >> Shouldn't that be emacs?
> > Ha! Use ed....
> 
> I remember writing university essays. In vecce. On, the hours I spent 
> splitting and rejoining lines ...
> 
> 'spose I should have been grateful for the v in vecce.

ECCE (the Edinburgh Compatible Context Editor) was very nice. I have 
been using VECCE on my VAX....

I used ECCE for years...still have sources in IMP and in BCPL. There's a
C version somewhere.

Which operating systems did you use it on?

-- 
Bob Eager
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

On Fri, 5 Sep 2008 11:26:25 UTC, Owain  
wrote:

> I remember writing university essays. In vecce. On, the hours I spent 
> splitting and rejoining lines ...

Obviously your version didn't have the Adjust command...

-- 
Bob Eager
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

Eeyore wrote:
> 
> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> 
>> Klunk wrote:
>>> Eeyore passed an empty day by writing:
>>>> "A.N. Onymous Esq" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> What would people recommend as the best free WYSIWYG HTML Editor?
>>>> Leave out WYSIWYG and notepad is the answer.
>>>>
>>>> That's how I do it.
>>>>
>>> I do love anal responses like this. It is not anal because he is
>>> suggesting to use a text editor, rather a crappy windows piece of s*it -
>>> like this is going to give him some kind of credibility.
>>>
>>> How about you jump on *nix box and do it with vi then, merlin!
>> been there and done that..
>>
>>> It take a bit more than using notepad to debastardise html bastasrdised
>>> by windows software, and running 'mozilla bollox' on XP to add any
>>> credance to such a pointless twat of a reply.
>>>
>>> The answer is anything you can get along with and that produces clean
>>> code. So, compromise. Amaya is ok, Kompozer is ok but there is a learning
>>> curve with them. Most web hacks only use them for basic layout and then
>>> tweak everything by hand. Finally, they make multiple style-sheets to
>>> cope with the various bastardisations of IE, and the more compliant
>>> browsers like Opera, Safari & Firefox.
>> the real point is that HTML is not, never has been and despite many
>> extensions to try and make it so, is still not wysiwyg.
>>
>> Ergo the concept of a WYSIWG editor for it, is, at best, marketing
>> hyperbole, and at worst, arrant nonsense.
> 
> SO correct. I had to explain that to my 'client' why it can look a bit different
> on one PC to another.
> 
> 
>> Having cleared that point, there are a range of editors that go from vi
>> upwards to obscene things like FrontPage that splatter an exponetially
>> increasing  amount of crap into the HTML in an attempt to force the
>> browser to display it in one way only.
> 
> And doubtless often make it non-compliant in the process one way or another.
> 
> Graham
> 
>

FWIW
  http://www.arachnoid.com/arachnophilia/

Bob Eager wrote:
>> I remember writing university essays. In vecce. On, the hours I spent 
>> splitting and rejoining lines ...
> Obviously your version didn't have the Adjust command...

<googles>  Or they didn't tell us about it. It's been 20 years and I can 
still feel the pain.

Owain

On Fri, 5 Sep 2008 19:42:19 UTC, Owain  
wrote:

> Bob Eager wrote:
> >> I remember writing university essays. In vecce. On, the hours I spent 
> >> splitting and rejoining lines ...
> > Obviously your version didn't have the Adjust command...
> 
> <googles>  Or they didn't tell us about it. It's been 20 years and I can 
> still feel the pain.

Which system was this on?

-- 
Bob Eager
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

Bob Eager wrote:
>>>> I remember writing university essays. In vecce. On, the hours I spent 
>>>> splitting and rejoining lines ...
>>> Obviously your version didn't have the Adjust command...
>> <googles>  Or they didn't tell us about it. It's been 20 years and I can 
>> still feel the pain.
> Which system was this on?

VAX 11/750 and 780, and VMS, c. 1998

In fact it was probably this one:
http://home.claranet.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/index.html

Owain

On Sat, 6 Sep 2008 21:39:22 UTC, Owain  
wrote:

> Bob Eager wrote:
> >>>> I remember writing university essays. In vecce. On, the hours I spent 
> >>>> splitting and rejoining lines ...
> >>> Obviously your version didn't have the Adjust command...
> >> <googles>  Or they didn't tell us about it. It's been 20 years and I can 
> >> still feel the pain.
> > Which system was this on?
> 
> VAX 11/750 and 780, and VMS, c. 1998

That's only 10 years ago....I'm confused!

> In fact it was probably this one:
> http://home.claranet.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/index.html

Bookmarked in my VMS folder...I have three small VAXes here, and an 
11/23. Still trying to find a couple of RL02 packs...

I first used ECCE circa 1974, on a PDP-11 system (MUSS-11, later 
DEIMOS). Also on EMAS 2900 for many years, and then the VAXes at work.


-- 
Bob Eager
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

Bob Eager wrote:
>>> Which system was this on?
>> VAX 11/750 and 780, and VMS, c. 1998
> That's only 10 years ago....I'm confused!

Sorry, 1988. Eeeh, I can still the queues after registration to collect 
grant cheques.

>> In fact it was probably this one:
>> http://home.claranet.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/index.html
> Bookmarked in my VMS folder...I have three small VAXes here, and an 
> 11/23. Still trying to find a couple of RL02 packs...
> I first used ECCE circa 1974, on a PDP-11 system (MUSS-11, later 
> DEIMOS). Also on EMAS 2900 for many years, and then the VAXes at work.

As well as adjusting all my line lengths by hand, I had to cut the 
printout paper down to near-A4. Then I got an Atari 520 with a whole 
half-megabyte of memory to myself (VAXA had 6MB and VABB had 4MB IIRC 
and could take about 5 minutes waiting for a logon prompt)

Owain

On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 13:33:58 UTC, Owain  
wrote:

> Bob Eager wrote:
> >>> Which system was this on?
> >> VAX 11/750 and 780, and VMS, c. 1998
> > That's only 10 years ago....I'm confused!
> 
> Sorry, 1988. Eeeh, I can still the queues after registration to collect 
> grant cheques.
> 
> >> In fact it was probably this one:
> >> http://home.claranet.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/index.html
> > Bookmarked in my VMS folder...I have three small VAXes here, and an 
> > 11/23. Still trying to find a couple of RL02 packs...
> > I first used ECCE circa 1974, on a PDP-11 system (MUSS-11, later 
> > DEIMOS). Also on EMAS 2900 for many years, and then the VAXes at work.
> 
> As well as adjusting all my line lengths by hand, I had to cut the 
> printout paper down to near-A4. Then I got an Atari 520 with a whole 
> half-megabyte of memory to myself (VAXA had 6MB and VABB had 4MB IIRC 
> and could take about 5 minutes waiting for a logon prompt)

Was this in Edinburgh, or somewhere else?

-- 
Bob Eager
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

Bob Eager wrote:
>>>> In fact it was probably this one:
>>>> http://home.claranet.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/index.html
> Was this in Edinburgh, or somewhere else?

Stirling

Owain

On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 16:03:32 UTC, Owain  
wrote:

> Bob Eager wrote:
> >>>> In fact it was probably this one:
> >>>> http://home.claranet.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/index.html
> > Was this in Edinburgh, or somewhere else?
> 
> Stirling

Ah. I think ECCE was pretty rife north of the border...the guy who 
originally wrote it is still around in Edinburgh. That's where we (in 
Kent) got it from.

-- 
Bob Eager
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

Bob Eager wrote:
> Ah. I think ECCE was pretty rife north of the border...

Would it have been free, by any chance? ;-)

Owain

On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 19:19:57 UTC, Owain  
wrote:

> Bob Eager wrote:
> > Ah. I think ECCE was pretty rife north of the border...
> 
> Would it have been free, by any chance? ;-)

Of course, that was it! :-)

Developed by the CS department at Edinburgh...I was involved with the 
Edinburgh computer service side for a long time.

-- 
Bob Eager
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org