A customer has been having intermittent ADSL connection problems ever since 
she got broadband about 6 months ago (though I only learned of this a week 
ago) and the symptoms have got much more frequent over the past couple of 
weeks.

Can I check that I have done the correct diagnostic checks.

The router is a BT Voyager 210.

Symptoms are either:

1. Router DSL light remains on but Internet light (ADSL logon) goes out. 
This is the more frequent symptom.

or

2. Router DSL light goes out and router retrains. This happens less 
frequently.


Typically everything works fine for about an hour and then there is a flurry 
of problems with failures maybe every 10 minutes or so, followed by another 
long fault-free period.

Why would a router that has a good DSL carrier intermittently lose its logon 
and need to be manually connected again, either by rebooting the router or 
else by going into the router's config page and pressing the Connect button?

I have put the router in the master test socket with all other 
wiring/equipment disconnected. I have replaced the RJ11-RJ11 cable and 
microfilter with an RJ11-BT cable to elimiminate the effect of faults in the 
cable or filter.

I have checked the line stats and they are good: downstream attenuation of 
about 30 dB and noise margin of 8 dB, and upstream lower attenuation / 
higher margin. The results for the router in the master test socket are only 
about 2 dB better than those with the router in the normal house wiring with 
everythign connected, which suggests that wiring/equipment is not the cause.

Despite these good figures, the router can be seen to lose sync at random - 
the stats then disappear.

I have tried with another router (BT Voyager 220) and this reported the same 
stats and failed in the same way. I wasn't able to check the loss of ADSL 
logon connection when there was a good DSL carrier because this router was 
locked to work only with BT lines - I've since learned how to re-flash it to 
remove that restriction!


Does all of this point to a line fault between the master socket and the 
exchange? It may be significant that when I was doing all my testing, there 
was constant heavy rain which could cause water in cable joins on poles or 
in underground ducts.


I've raised a call with the ISP but they haven't yet responded apart from 
acknowledging the ticket and escalating it to the correct department.

"Mortimer"  wrote in message 
news:utydnYrRIfPBP9rVnZ2dnUVZ8qqlnZ2d@plusnet...
>A customer has been having intermittent ADSL connection problems ever since 
>she got broadband about 6 months ago (though I only learned of this a week 
>ago) and the symptoms have got much more frequent over the past couple of 
>weeks.
>
> Can I check that I have done the correct diagnostic checks.
>
> The router is a BT Voyager 210.
>
> Symptoms are either:
>
> 1. Router DSL light remains on but Internet light (ADSL logon) goes out. 
> This is the more frequent symptom.
>
> or
>
> 2. Router DSL light goes out and router retrains. This happens less 
> frequently.

[snip details]


Have you tried a different make of router?  (A reputable brand such as 
Vigor)

Get the router to report to a local syslog so you can see exactly when the 
failures occur and their nature.

Who is the ISP ??  If they don't respond to you within a few hours with a 
sensible proposal for resolving the problem I suggest a change to a more 
technically competent ISP is your first priority.

-- 
Graham J

Mortimer wrote:
> A customer has been having intermittent ADSL connection problems
> ever since she got broadband about 6 months ago (though I only
> learned of this a week ago) and the symptoms have got much more
> frequent over the past couple of weeks.
>
> Can I check that I have done the correct diagnostic checks.
>
> The router is a BT Voyager 210.
>
> Symptoms are either:
>
> 1. Router DSL light remains on but Internet light (ADSL logon) goes
> out. This is the more frequent symptom.
>
> or
>
> 2. Router DSL light goes out and router retrains. This happens less
> frequently.
>
>
> Typically everything works fine for about an hour and then there is
> a flurry of problems with failures maybe every 10 minutes or so,
> followed by another long fault-free period.
>
> Why would a router that has a good DSL carrier intermittently lose
> its logon and need to be manually connected again, either by
> rebooting the router or else by going into the router's config page
> and pressing the Connect button?
> I have put the router in the master test socket with all other
> wiring/equipment disconnected. I have replaced the RJ11-RJ11 cable
> and microfilter with an RJ11-BT cable to elimiminate the effect of
> faults in the cable or filter.
>
> I have checked the line stats and they are good: downstream
> attenuation of about 30 dB and noise margin of 8 dB, and upstream
> lower attenuation / higher margin. The results for the router in
> the master test socket are only about 2 dB better than those with
> the router in the normal house wiring with everythign connected,
> which suggests that wiring/equipment is not the cause.
> Despite these good figures, the router can be seen to lose sync at
> random - the stats then disappear.
>
> I have tried with another router (BT Voyager 220) and this reported
> the same stats and failed in the same way. I wasn't able to check
> the loss of ADSL logon connection when there was a good DSL carrier
> because this router was locked to work only with BT lines - I've
> since learned how to re-flash it to remove that restriction!
>
>
> Does all of this point to a line fault between the master socket
> and the exchange? It may be significant that when I was doing all
> my testing, there was constant heavy rain which could cause water
> in cable joins on poles or in underground ducts.
>
>
> I've raised a call with the ISP but they haven't yet responded
> apart from acknowledging the ticket and escalating it to the
> correct department.

It could be an intermitent noise on the line, buggers to find if there isn't 
any other diagnostics.  Had one today, in the end I had to swap a pair as 
there were no fault conditions other than this intermitent noise (& before 
anybody says, no I didn't give it a blast with my Mega as it's been taken 
away from me so I have to use the infamous Hawk, looks like a ladies hand 
bag stuffed with bricks & is twice as useless, most of the time).

On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 23:08:09 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
writing:

> Mortimer wrote:
>> A customer has been having intermittent ADSL connection problems ever
>> since she got broadband about 6 months ago (though I only learned of
>> this a week ago) and the symptoms have got much more frequent over the
>> past couple of weeks.
>>
>> Can I check that I have done the correct diagnostic checks.
>>
>> The router is a BT Voyager 210.
>>
>> Symptoms are either:
>>
>> 1. Router DSL light remains on but Internet light (ADSL logon) goes
>> out. This is the more frequent symptom.
>>
>> or
>>
>> 2. Router DSL light goes out and router retrains. This happens less
>> frequently.
>>
>>
>> Typically everything works fine for about an hour and then there is a
>> flurry of problems with failures maybe every 10 minutes or so, followed
>> by another long fault-free period.
>>
>> Why would a router that has a good DSL carrier intermittently lose its
>> logon and need to be manually connected again, either by rebooting the
>> router or else by going into the router's config page and pressing the
>> Connect button?
>> I have put the router in the master test socket with all other
>> wiring/equipment disconnected. I have replaced the RJ11-RJ11 cable and
>> microfilter with an RJ11-BT cable to elimiminate the effect of faults
>> in the cable or filter.
>>
>> I have checked the line stats and they are good: downstream attenuation
>> of about 30 dB and noise margin of 8 dB, and upstream lower attenuation
>> / higher margin. The results for the router in the master test socket
>> are only about 2 dB better than those with the router in the normal
>> house wiring with everythign connected, which suggests that
>> wiring/equipment is not the cause. Despite these good figures, the
>> router can be seen to lose sync at random - the stats then disappear.
>>
>> I have tried with another router (BT Voyager 220) and this reported the
>> same stats and failed in the same way. I wasn't able to check the loss
>> of ADSL logon connection when there was a good DSL carrier because this
>> router was locked to work only with BT lines - I've since learned how
>> to re-flash it to remove that restriction!
>>
>>
>> Does all of this point to a line fault between the master socket and
>> the exchange? It may be significant that when I was doing all my
>> testing, there was constant heavy rain which could cause water in cable
>> joins on poles or in underground ducts.
>>
>>
>> I've raised a call with the ISP but they haven't yet responded apart
>> from acknowledging the ticket and escalating it to the correct
>> department.
> 
> It could be an intermitent noise on the line, buggers to find if there
> isn't any other diagnostics.  Had one today, in the end I had to swap a
> pair as there were no fault conditions other than this intermitent noise
> (& before anybody says, no I didn't give it a blast with my Mega as it's
> been taken away from me so I have to use the infamous Hawk, looks like a
> ladies hand bag stuffed with bricks & is twice as useless, most of the
> time).

The 'infamous hawk' has a 500v insulation tester built in, just like the 
old 18c megger. Don't say you missed that on the training and threw the 
booklet in the back of your van ;-)

Klunk wrote:
> On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 23:08:09 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
> writing:
>
>> Mortimer wrote:
>>> A customer has been having intermittent ADSL connection problems
>>> ever since she got broadband about 6 months ago (though I only
>>> learned of this a week ago) and the symptoms have got much more
>>> frequent over the past couple of weeks.
>>>
>>> Can I check that I have done the correct diagnostic checks.
>>>
>>> The router is a BT Voyager 210.
>>>
>>> Symptoms are either:
>>>
>>> 1. Router DSL light remains on but Internet light (ADSL logon)
>>> goes out. This is the more frequent symptom.
>>>
>>> or
>>>
>>> 2. Router DSL light goes out and router retrains. This happens
>>> less frequently.
>>>
>>>
>>> Typically everything works fine for about an hour and then there
>>> is a flurry of problems with failures maybe every 10 minutes or
>>> so, followed by another long fault-free period.
>>>
>>> Why would a router that has a good DSL carrier intermittently
>>> lose its logon and need to be manually connected again, either by
>>> rebooting the router or else by going into the router's config
>>> page and pressing the Connect button?
>>> I have put the router in the master test socket with all other
>>> wiring/equipment disconnected. I have replaced the RJ11-RJ11
>>> cable and microfilter with an RJ11-BT cable to elimiminate the
>>> effect of faults in the cable or filter.
>>>
>>> I have checked the line stats and they are good: downstream
>>> attenuation of about 30 dB and noise margin of 8 dB, and upstream
>>> lower attenuation / higher margin. The results for the router in
>>> the master test socket are only about 2 dB better than those with
>>> the router in the normal house wiring with everythign connected,
>>> which suggests that wiring/equipment is not the cause. Despite
>>> these good figures, the router can be seen to lose sync at random
>>> - the stats then disappear.
>>>
>>> I have tried with another router (BT Voyager 220) and this
>>> reported the same stats and failed in the same way. I wasn't able
>>> to check the loss of ADSL logon connection when there was a good
>>> DSL carrier because this router was locked to work only with BT
>>> lines - I've since learned how to re-flash it to remove that
>>> restriction!
>>>
>>>
>>> Does all of this point to a line fault between the master socket
>>> and the exchange? It may be significant that when I was doing all
>>> my testing, there was constant heavy rain which could cause water
>>> in cable joins on poles or in underground ducts.
>>>
>>>
>>> I've raised a call with the ISP but they haven't yet responded
>>> apart from acknowledging the ticket and escalating it to the
>>> correct department.
>>
>> It could be an intermitent noise on the line, buggers to find if
>> there isn't any other diagnostics.  Had one today, in the end I
>> had to swap a pair as there were no fault conditions other than
>> this intermitent noise (& before anybody says, no I didn't give it
>> a blast with my Mega as it's been taken away from me so I have to
>> use the infamous Hawk, looks like a ladies hand bag stuffed with
>> bricks & is twice as useless, most of the time).
>
> The 'infamous hawk' has a 500v insulation tester built in, just
> like the old 18c megger. Don't say you missed that on the training
> and threw the booklet in the back of your van ;-)

Believe or not I'm still waiting for the advanced Hawk training for over 2 
years & the no training was provided by 2 work shy coaches looking for a 
couple of days out of the field..  As for coupling it to my PC via Bluetooth 
or serial port I figured it out on my own but don't see a use for it until 
they actually start to record the test readings, like never as with the 
Harrier..

kraftee wrote:

>>The 'infamous hawk' has a 500v insulation tester built in, just
>>like the old 18c megger. Don't say you missed that on the training
>>and threw the booklet in the back of your van ;-)
> 
> 
> Believe or not I'm still waiting for the advanced Hawk training for over 2 
> years & the no training was provided by 2 work shy coaches looking for a 
> couple of days out of the field..  As for coupling it to my PC via Bluetooth 
> or serial port I figured it out on my own but don't see a use for it until 
> they actually start to record the test readings, like never as with the 
> Harrier.. 
> 
> 
I am surprised you are allowed to use anything like 500v with all 
today's Health and Safety.
The old original 'Meggers' with big handles were really good! I only 
managed to leave work with smaller version.

The GPO safely madness even went as far as being the ecuse for not 
renting unequipped fibres (like they used to do with coaxes) cos someone 
said that there was  adanger of looking down a 'lit' fibre it it was 
provisioned by a third party.

Have to say anyone looking down a fibre is stupid anyway - although the 
laser pointers are a very good quick way to see if a fibre is continuous.
We used them often on TV Outside Broadcasts to check the temporary .

Mikefibres

m wrote:
> kraftee wrote:
>
>>> The 'infamous hawk' has a 500v insulation tester built in, just
>>> like the old 18c megger. Don't say you missed that on the training
>>> and threw the booklet in the back of your van ;-)
>>
>>
>> Believe or not I'm still waiting for the advanced Hawk training
>> for over 2 years & the no training was provided by 2 work shy
>> coaches looking for a couple of days out of the field..  As for
>> coupling it to my PC via Bluetooth or serial port I figured it out
>> on my own but don't see a use for it until they actually start to
>> record the test readings, like never as with the Harrier..
>>
>>
> I am surprised you are allowed to use anything like 500v with all
> today's Health and Safety.
> The old original 'Meggers' with big handles were really good! I only
> managed to leave work with smaller version.
>
> The GPO safely madness even went as far as being the ecuse for not
> renting unequipped fibres (like they used to do with coaxes) cos
> someone said that there was  adanger of looking down a 'lit' fibre
> it it was provisioned by a third party.
>
> Have to say anyone looking down a fibre is stupid anyway - although
> the laser pointers are a very good quick way to see if a fibre is
> continuous. We used them often on TV Outside Broadcasts to check
> the temporary .
> Mikefibres

Don't tell him it's nearer 150V as he will then have to make up something 
else to grumble about.

But it is typical & is still going on, we've got new starters who have got 
no idea what or how to test using equipment supposedly costing thousands of 
pounds.  'Der Management' appear to have the believe that if you spend lots 
of money on new equipment & nothing on training things are going to improve. 
For me the most prominent one is the lack of DSL training now given to 
supposed DSL trained engineers.  When I was trained (& it was one of the few 
you had to pass & yes some did fail) it was a residential 2 week course & it 
still didn't cover all the areas required, nowadays it's 2 days in the local 
'skill centre' being taught by someone who just wants an easy couple of days 
& then they are sent out with the simple instruction if the green LED is on 
everything is ok.  I do really wish it was that simple.....

On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 20:29:29 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
writing:

> Klunk wrote:
>> On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 23:08:09 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
>> writing:
>>
>>> Mortimer wrote:
>>>> A customer has been having intermittent ADSL connection problems ever
>>>> since she got broadband about 6 months ago (though I only learned of
>>>> this a week ago) and the symptoms have got much more frequent over
>>>> the past couple of weeks.
>>>>
>>>> Can I check that I have done the correct diagnostic checks.
>>>>
>>>> The router is a BT Voyager 210.
>>>>
>>>> Symptoms are either:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Router DSL light remains on but Internet light (ADSL logon) goes
>>>> out. This is the more frequent symptom.
>>>>
>>>> or
>>>>
>>>> 2. Router DSL light goes out and router retrains. This happens less
>>>> frequently.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Typically everything works fine for about an hour and then there is a
>>>> flurry of problems with failures maybe every 10 minutes or so,
>>>> followed by another long fault-free period.
>>>>
>>>> Why would a router that has a good DSL carrier intermittently lose
>>>> its logon and need to be manually connected again, either by
>>>> rebooting the router or else by going into the router's config page
>>>> and pressing the Connect button? I have put the router in the master
>>>> test socket with all other wiring/equipment disconnected. I have
>>>> replaced the RJ11-RJ11 cable and microfilter with an RJ11-BT cable to
>>>> elimiminate the effect of faults in the cable or filter.
>>>>
>>>> I have checked the line stats and they are good: downstream
>>>> attenuation of about 30 dB and noise margin of 8 dB, and upstream
>>>> lower attenuation / higher margin. The results for the router in the
>>>> master test socket are only about 2 dB better than those with the
>>>> router in the normal house wiring with everythign connected, which
>>>> suggests that wiring/equipment is not the cause. Despite these good
>>>> figures, the router can be seen to lose sync at random - the stats
>>>> then disappear.
>>>>
>>>> I have tried with another router (BT Voyager 220) and this reported
>>>> the same stats and failed in the same way. I wasn't able to check the
>>>> loss of ADSL logon connection when there was a good DSL carrier
>>>> because this router was locked to work only with BT lines - I've
>>>> since learned how to re-flash it to remove that restriction!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Does all of this point to a line fault between the master socket and
>>>> the exchange? It may be significant that when I was doing all my
>>>> testing, there was constant heavy rain which could cause water in
>>>> cable joins on poles or in underground ducts.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've raised a call with the ISP but they haven't yet responded apart
>>>> from acknowledging the ticket and escalating it to the correct
>>>> department.
>>>
>>> It could be an intermitent noise on the line, buggers to find if there
>>> isn't any other diagnostics.  Had one today, in the end I had to swap
>>> a pair as there were no fault conditions other than this intermitent
>>> noise (& before anybody says, no I didn't give it a blast with my Mega
>>> as it's been taken away from me so I have to use the infamous Hawk,
>>> looks like a ladies hand bag stuffed with bricks & is twice as
>>> useless, most of the time).
>>
>> The 'infamous hawk' has a 500v insulation tester built in, just like
>> the old 18c megger. Don't say you missed that on the training and threw
>> the booklet in the back of your van ;-)
> 
> Believe or not I'm still waiting for the advanced Hawk training for over
> 2 years & the no training was provided by 2 work shy coaches looking for
> a couple of days out of the field..  As for coupling it to my PC via
> Bluetooth or serial port I figured it out on my own but don't see a use
> for it until they actually start to record the test readings, like never
> as with the Harrier..

It is not part of the advanced course. It is a basic feature of the unit. 
Normally it tests at 95v but pressing the button next to that figure 
cycles it through 95, 500, -500, -95. On later software they may have 
removed it but it still exists in the 'bridge' mode enabling a nice blast 
of 500v to be applied.

For intermittent noisy faults I bought a cheap Tempo Sidekick off of 
eBay. The stress test was very useful and why BT have nothing like it I 
don't know. It applies a 1khz tone across the pair at 140v and you can 
watch the HR jump about on the meter. I picked it up for £30 (but I've 
seen them go for a £1) and it gave me enough of an edge to spend more 
valuable time drinking tea ;-)

Klunk wrote:
> On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 20:29:29 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
> writing:
>
>> Klunk wrote:
>>> On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 23:08:09 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
>>> writing:
>>>
>>>> Mortimer wrote:
>>>>> A customer has been having intermittent ADSL connection
>>>>> problems ever since she got broadband about 6 months ago
>>>>> (though I only learned of this a week ago) and the symptoms
>>>>> have got much more frequent over the past couple of weeks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Can I check that I have done the correct diagnostic checks.
>>>>>
>>>>> The router is a BT Voyager 210.
>>>>>
>>>>> Symptoms are either:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Router DSL light remains on but Internet light (ADSL logon)
>>>>> goes out. This is the more frequent symptom.
>>>>>
>>>>> or
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. Router DSL light goes out and router retrains. This happens
>>>>> less frequently.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Typically everything works fine for about an hour and then
>>>>> there is a flurry of problems with failures maybe every 10
>>>>> minutes or so, followed by another long fault-free period.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why would a router that has a good DSL carrier intermittently
>>>>> lose its logon and need to be manually connected again, either
>>>>> by rebooting the router or else by going into the router's
>>>>> config page and pressing the Connect button? I have put the
>>>>> router in the master test socket with all other
>>>>> wiring/equipment disconnected. I have replaced the RJ11-RJ11
>>>>> cable and microfilter with an RJ11-BT cable to elimiminate the
>>>>> effect of faults in the cable or filter.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have checked the line stats and they are good: downstream
>>>>> attenuation of about 30 dB and noise margin of 8 dB, and
>>>>> upstream lower attenuation / higher margin. The results for the
>>>>> router in the master test socket are only about 2 dB better
>>>>> than those with the router in the normal house wiring with
>>>>> everythign connected, which suggests that wiring/equipment is
>>>>> not the cause. Despite these good figures, the router can be
>>>>> seen to lose sync at random - the stats then disappear.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have tried with another router (BT Voyager 220) and this
>>>>> reported the same stats and failed in the same way. I wasn't
>>>>> able to check the loss of ADSL logon connection when there was
>>>>> a good DSL carrier because this router was locked to work only
>>>>> with BT lines - I've since learned how to re-flash it to remove
>>>>> that restriction!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Does all of this point to a line fault between the master
>>>>> socket and the exchange? It may be significant that when I was
>>>>> doing all my testing, there was constant heavy rain which could
>>>>> cause water in cable joins on poles or in underground ducts.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I've raised a call with the ISP but they haven't yet responded
>>>>> apart from acknowledging the ticket and escalating it to the
>>>>> correct department.
>>>>
>>>> It could be an intermitent noise on the line, buggers to find if
>>>> there isn't any other diagnostics.  Had one today, in the end I
>>>> had to swap a pair as there were no fault conditions other than
>>>> this intermitent noise (& before anybody says, no I didn't give
>>>> it a blast with my Mega as it's been taken away from me so I
>>>> have to use the infamous Hawk, looks like a ladies hand bag
>>>> stuffed with bricks & is twice as useless, most of the time).
>>>
>>> The 'infamous hawk' has a 500v insulation tester built in, just
>>> like the old 18c megger. Don't say you missed that on the
>>> training and threw the booklet in the back of your van ;-)
>>
>> Believe or not I'm still waiting for the advanced Hawk training
>> for over 2 years & the no training was provided by 2 work shy
>> coaches looking for a couple of days out of the field..  As for
>> coupling it to my PC via Bluetooth or serial port I figured it out
>> on my own but don't see a use for it until they actually start to
>> record the test readings, like never as with the Harrier..
>
> It is not part of the advanced course. It is a basic feature of the
> unit. Normally it tests at 95v but pressing the button next to that
> figure cycles it through 95, 500, -500, -95. On later software they
> may have removed it but it still exists in the 'bridge' mode
> enabling a nice blast of 500v to be applied.

Well that's where we differ, later software on mine which clearly states 
95V, most probably HS have been involved

> For intermittent noisy faults I bought a cheap Tempo Sidekick off of
> eBay. The stress test was very useful and why BT have nothing like
> it I don't know. It applies a 1khz tone across the pair at 140v and
> you can watch the HR jump about on the meter. I picked it up for
> £30 (but I've seen them go for a £1) and it gave me enough of an
> edge to spend more valuable time drinking tea ;-)

So clearly you are one of the group you were slandering in previous post, 
the one where you called field engineers lazy & drink tea all day.  I 
suppose it's ok if you have a box van (that makes you second stage then) but 
all the end user facing engineers in this overall area have to put up with 
panel vans where you don't have room to drinl tea let alone make it.  before 
you ask it, no the electric kettle (like a lot of other bits of kit) isn't 
fit for puirpose.

On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 08:10:05 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
writing:

> Klunk wrote:
>> On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 20:29:29 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
>> writing:
>>
>>> Klunk wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 23:08:09 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
>>>> writing:
>>>>
>>>>> Mortimer wrote:
>>>>>> A customer has been having intermittent ADSL connection problems
>>>>>> ever since she got broadband about 6 months ago (though I only
>>>>>> learned of this a week ago) and the symptoms have got much more
>>>>>> frequent over the past couple of weeks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can I check that I have done the correct diagnostic checks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The router is a BT Voyager 210.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Symptoms are either:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Router DSL light remains on but Internet light (ADSL logon) goes
>>>>>> out. This is the more frequent symptom.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> or
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. Router DSL light goes out and router retrains. This happens less
>>>>>> frequently.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Typically everything works fine for about an hour and then there is
>>>>>> a flurry of problems with failures maybe every 10 minutes or so,
>>>>>> followed by another long fault-free period.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why would a router that has a good DSL carrier intermittently lose
>>>>>> its logon and need to be manually connected again, either by
>>>>>> rebooting the router or else by going into the router's config page
>>>>>> and pressing the Connect button? I have put the router in the
>>>>>> master test socket with all other wiring/equipment disconnected. I
>>>>>> have replaced the RJ11-RJ11 cable and microfilter with an RJ11-BT
>>>>>> cable to elimiminate the effect of faults in the cable or filter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have checked the line stats and they are good: downstream
>>>>>> attenuation of about 30 dB and noise margin of 8 dB, and upstream
>>>>>> lower attenuation / higher margin. The results for the router in
>>>>>> the master test socket are only about 2 dB better than those with
>>>>>> the router in the normal house wiring with everythign connected,
>>>>>> which suggests that wiring/equipment is not the cause. Despite
>>>>>> these good figures, the router can be seen to lose sync at random -
>>>>>> the stats then disappear.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have tried with another router (BT Voyager 220) and this reported
>>>>>> the same stats and failed in the same way. I wasn't able to check
>>>>>> the loss of ADSL logon connection when there was a good DSL carrier
>>>>>> because this router was locked to work only with BT lines - I've
>>>>>> since learned how to re-flash it to remove that restriction!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does all of this point to a line fault between the master socket
>>>>>> and the exchange? It may be significant that when I was doing all
>>>>>> my testing, there was constant heavy rain which could cause water
>>>>>> in cable joins on poles or in underground ducts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've raised a call with the ISP but they haven't yet responded
>>>>>> apart from acknowledging the ticket and escalating it to the
>>>>>> correct department.
>>>>>
>>>>> It could be an intermitent noise on the line, buggers to find if
>>>>> there isn't any other diagnostics.  Had one today, in the end I had
>>>>> to swap a pair as there were no fault conditions other than this
>>>>> intermitent noise (& before anybody says, no I didn't give it a
>>>>> blast with my Mega as it's been taken away from me so I have to use
>>>>> the infamous Hawk, looks like a ladies hand bag stuffed with bricks
>>>>> & is twice as useless, most of the time).
>>>>
>>>> The 'infamous hawk' has a 500v insulation tester built in, just like
>>>> the old 18c megger. Don't say you missed that on the training and
>>>> threw the booklet in the back of your van ;-)
>>>
>>> Believe or not I'm still waiting for the advanced Hawk training for
>>> over 2 years & the no training was provided by 2 work shy coaches
>>> looking for a couple of days out of the field..  As for coupling it to
>>> my PC via Bluetooth or serial port I figured it out on my own but
>>> don't see a use for it until they actually start to record the test
>>> readings, like never as with the Harrier..
>>
>> It is not part of the advanced course. It is a basic feature of the
>> unit. Normally it tests at 95v but pressing the button next to that
>> figure cycles it through 95, 500, -500, -95. On later software they may
>> have removed it but it still exists in the 'bridge' mode enabling a
>> nice blast of 500v to be applied.
> 
> Well that's where we differ, later software on mine which clearly states
> 95V, most probably HS have been involved
> 
>> For intermittent noisy faults I bought a cheap Tempo Sidekick off of
>> eBay. The stress test was very useful and why BT have nothing like it I
>> don't know. It applies a 1khz tone across the pair at 140v and you can
>> watch the HR jump about on the meter. I picked it up for 30 (but I've
>> seen them go for a 1) and it gave me enough of an edge to spend more
>> valuable time drinking tea ;-)
> 
> So clearly you are one of the group you were slandering in previous
> post, the one where you called field engineers lazy & drink tea all day.
>  I suppose it's ok if you have a box van (that makes you second stage
> then) but all the end user facing engineers in this overall area have to
> put up with panel vans where you don't have room to drinl tea let alone
> make it.  before you ask it, no the electric kettle (like a lot of other
> bits of kit) isn't fit for puirpose.

There you go jumping the gun and making wild assumptions again, in all 
the years you have been posting here you've not gotten over doing that.

To answer your points before you disappear up your own arse:
1) I slandered nobody. I told the truth.
2) Yes, I had plenty of days drinking tea and dodging work. I also had 
plenty of days doing work other people were dodging or f**king up. 
3) I've always gone that 'extra mile'. Buying your own test kit to 
resolve multiple repeat reports and basic things like actually knowing 
how to use the kit you have tends to be helpful.
4) Customer facing always. Always apologising for lazy, overpaid, thick 
engineers who spent the day cutting and running.
4) I don't recall ever driving a box van. They were for the extremely 
lazy twats (PPO's, PTO's etc.)
5) All electric kettles are fit for their purpose and PAT tested.

I've covered your points, keep digging - anything else?

Klunk wrote:
> On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 08:10:05 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
> writing:
>
>> Klunk wrote:
>>> On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 20:29:29 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
>>> writing:
>>>
>>>> Klunk wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 23:08:09 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day
>>>>> by writing:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Mortimer wrote:
>>>>>>> A customer has been having intermittent ADSL connection
>>>>>>> problems ever since she got broadband about 6 months ago
>>>>>>> (though I only learned of this a week ago) and the symptoms
>>>>>>> have got much more frequent over the past couple of weeks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can I check that I have done the correct diagnostic checks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The router is a BT Voyager 210.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Symptoms are either:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. Router DSL light remains on but Internet light (ADSL
>>>>>>> logon) goes out. This is the more frequent symptom.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2. Router DSL light goes out and router retrains. This
>>>>>>> happens less frequently.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Typically everything works fine for about an hour and then
>>>>>>> there is a flurry of problems with failures maybe every 10
>>>>>>> minutes or so, followed by another long fault-free period.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why would a router that has a good DSL carrier intermittently
>>>>>>> lose its logon and need to be manually connected again,
>>>>>>> either by rebooting the router or else by going into the
>>>>>>> router's config page and pressing the Connect button? I have
>>>>>>> put the router in the master test socket with all other
>>>>>>> wiring/equipment disconnected. I have replaced the RJ11-RJ11
>>>>>>> cable and microfilter with an RJ11-BT cable to elimiminate
>>>>>>> the effect of faults in the cable or filter.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have checked the line stats and they are good: downstream
>>>>>>> attenuation of about 30 dB and noise margin of 8 dB, and
>>>>>>> upstream lower attenuation / higher margin. The results for
>>>>>>> the router in the master test socket are only about 2 dB
>>>>>>> better than those with the router in the normal house wiring
>>>>>>> with everythign connected, which suggests that
>>>>>>> wiring/equipment is not the cause. Despite these good
>>>>>>> figures, the router can be seen to lose sync at random - the
>>>>>>> stats then disappear.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have tried with another router (BT Voyager 220) and this
>>>>>>> reported the same stats and failed in the same way. I wasn't
>>>>>>> able to check the loss of ADSL logon connection when there
>>>>>>> was a good DSL carrier because this router was locked to work
>>>>>>> only with BT lines - I've since learned how to re-flash it to
>>>>>>> remove that restriction!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does all of this point to a line fault between the master
>>>>>>> socket and the exchange? It may be significant that when I
>>>>>>> was doing all my testing, there was constant heavy rain which
>>>>>>> could cause water in cable joins on poles or in underground
>>>>>>> ducts.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've raised a call with the ISP but they haven't yet responded
>>>>>>> apart from acknowledging the ticket and escalating it to the
>>>>>>> correct department.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It could be an intermitent noise on the line, buggers to find
>>>>>> if there isn't any other diagnostics.  Had one today, in the
>>>>>> end I had to swap a pair as there were no fault conditions
>>>>>> other than this intermitent noise (& before anybody says, no I
>>>>>> didn't give it a blast with my Mega as it's been taken away
>>>>>> from me so I have to use the infamous Hawk, looks like a
>>>>>> ladies hand bag stuffed with bricks & is twice as useless,
>>>>>> most of the time).
>>>>>
>>>>> The 'infamous hawk' has a 500v insulation tester built in, just
>>>>> like the old 18c megger. Don't say you missed that on the
>>>>> training and threw the booklet in the back of your van ;-)
>>>>
>>>> Believe or not I'm still waiting for the advanced Hawk training
>>>> for over 2 years & the no training was provided by 2 work shy
>>>> coaches looking for a couple of days out of the field..  As for
>>>> coupling it to my PC via Bluetooth or serial port I figured it
>>>> out on my own but don't see a use for it until they actually
>>>> start to record the test readings, like never as with the
>>>> Harrier..
>>>
>>> It is not part of the advanced course. It is a basic feature of
>>> the unit. Normally it tests at 95v but pressing the button next
>>> to that figure cycles it through 95, 500, -500, -95. On later
>>> software they may have removed it but it still exists in the
>>> 'bridge' mode enabling a nice blast of 500v to be applied.
>>
>> Well that's where we differ, later software on mine which clearly
>> states 95V, most probably HS have been involved
>>
>>> For intermittent noisy faults I bought a cheap Tempo Sidekick off
>>> of eBay. The stress test was very useful and why BT have nothing
>>> like it I don't know. It applies a 1khz tone across the pair at
>>> 140v and you can watch the HR jump about on the meter. I picked
>>> it up for 30 (but I've seen them go for a 1) and it gave me
>>> enough of an edge to spend more valuable time drinking tea ;-)
>>
>> So clearly you are one of the group you were slandering in previous
>> post, the one where you called field engineers lazy & drink tea
>>  all day. I suppose it's ok if you have a box van (that makes you
>> second stage then) but all the end user facing engineers in this
>> overall area have to put up with panel vans where you don't have
>> room to drinl tea let alone make it.  before you ask it, no the
>> electric kettle (like a lot of other bits of kit) isn't fit for
>> puirpose.
>
> There you go jumping the gun and making wild assumptions again, in
> all the years you have been posting here you've not gotten over
> doing that.
>
> To answer your points before you disappear up your own arse:
> 1) I slandered nobody. I told the truth.
> 2) Yes, I had plenty of days drinking tea and dodging work. I also
> had plenty of days doing work other people were dodging or f**king
> up. 3) I've always gone that 'extra mile'. Buying your own test kit
> to resolve multiple repeat reports and basic things like actually
> knowing how to use the kit you have tends to be helpful.
> 4) Customer facing always. Always apologising for lazy, overpaid,
> thick engineers who spent the day cutting and running.
> 4) I don't recall ever driving a box van. They were for the
> extremely lazy twats (PPO's, PTO's etc.)
> 5) All electric kettles are fit for their purpose and PAT tested.
>
> I've covered your points, keep digging - anything else?

Der you don't PAT test the electric kettles which are supposed to be on your 
panel van, as for buying kit to get problems resolved, been there done it 
then informally told to remove them as they have not been tested for HS 
reasons (how else could I use the old black Alcatel routers to test in  PCPs 
or joints for that matterwithout a 12v transverter ).  the only pieces of 
extra kit I've been allowed to keep is an old B&D 9v drill/screwdriver which 
is very useful to use in confined spaces, oh & a couple of extra 
screwdrivers, everything else has had to go (including the knife which I 
bought after der management said that engineers wern't responcable to carry 
one & so took them away from us)

I'm not the person digging holes, unless it's looking for buried joints or 
JB23s for that matter....

On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 16:43:06 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
writing:

> Klunk wrote:
>> On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 08:10:05 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
>> writing:
>>
>>> Klunk wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 20:29:29 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
>>>> writing:
>>>>
>>>>> Klunk wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 23:08:09 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
>>>>>> writing:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mortimer wrote:
>>>>>>>> A customer has been having intermittent ADSL connection problems
>>>>>>>> ever since she got broadband about 6 months ago (though I only
>>>>>>>> learned of this a week ago) and the symptoms have got much more
>>>>>>>> frequent over the past couple of weeks.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Can I check that I have done the correct diagnostic checks.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The router is a BT Voyager 210.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Symptoms are either:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1. Router DSL light remains on but Internet light (ADSL logon)
>>>>>>>> goes out. This is the more frequent symptom.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2. Router DSL light goes out and router retrains. This happens
>>>>>>>> less frequently.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Typically everything works fine for about an hour and then there
>>>>>>>> is a flurry of problems with failures maybe every 10 minutes or
>>>>>>>> so, followed by another long fault-free period.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why would a router that has a good DSL carrier intermittently
>>>>>>>> lose its logon and need to be manually connected again, either by
>>>>>>>> rebooting the router or else by going into the router's config
>>>>>>>> page and pressing the Connect button? I have put the router in
>>>>>>>> the master test socket with all other wiring/equipment
>>>>>>>> disconnected. I have replaced the RJ11-RJ11 cable and microfilter
>>>>>>>> with an RJ11-BT cable to elimiminate the effect of faults in the
>>>>>>>> cable or filter.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have checked the line stats and they are good: downstream
>>>>>>>> attenuation of about 30 dB and noise margin of 8 dB, and upstream
>>>>>>>> lower attenuation / higher margin. The results for the router in
>>>>>>>> the master test socket are only about 2 dB better than those with
>>>>>>>> the router in the normal house wiring with everythign connected,
>>>>>>>> which suggests that wiring/equipment is not the cause. Despite
>>>>>>>> these good figures, the router can be seen to lose sync at random
>>>>>>>> - the stats then disappear.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have tried with another router (BT Voyager 220) and this
>>>>>>>> reported the same stats and failed in the same way. I wasn't able
>>>>>>>> to check the loss of ADSL logon connection when there was a good
>>>>>>>> DSL carrier because this router was locked to work only with BT
>>>>>>>> lines - I've since learned how to re-flash it to remove that
>>>>>>>> restriction!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Does all of this point to a line fault between the master socket
>>>>>>>> and the exchange? It may be significant that when I was doing all
>>>>>>>> my testing, there was constant heavy rain which could cause water
>>>>>>>> in cable joins on poles or in underground ducts.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've raised a call with the ISP but they haven't yet responded
>>>>>>>> apart from acknowledging the ticket and escalating it to the
>>>>>>>> correct department.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It could be an intermitent noise on the line, buggers to find if
>>>>>>> there isn't any other diagnostics.  Had one today, in the end I
>>>>>>> had to swap a pair as there were no fault conditions other than
>>>>>>> this intermitent noise (& before anybody says, no I didn't give it
>>>>>>> a blast with my Mega as it's been taken away from me so I have to
>>>>>>> use the infamous Hawk, looks like a ladies hand bag stuffed with
>>>>>>> bricks & is twice as useless, most of the time).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The 'infamous hawk' has a 500v insulation tester built in, just
>>>>>> like the old 18c megger. Don't say you missed that on the training
>>>>>> and threw the booklet in the back of your van ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Believe or not I'm still waiting for the advanced Hawk training for
>>>>> over 2 years & the no training was provided by 2 work shy coaches
>>>>> looking for a couple of days out of the field..  As for coupling it
>>>>> to my PC via Bluetooth or serial port I figured it out on my own but
>>>>> don't see a use for it until they actually start to record the test
>>>>> readings, like never as with the Harrier..
>>>>
>>>> It is not part of the advanced course. It is a basic feature of the
>>>> unit. Normally it tests at 95v but pressing the button next to that
>>>> figure cycles it through 95, 500, -500, -95. On later software they
>>>> may have removed it but it still exists in the 'bridge' mode enabling
>>>> a nice blast of 500v to be applied.
>>>
>>> Well that's where we differ, later software on mine which clearly
>>> states 95V, most probably HS have been involved
>>>
>>>> For intermittent noisy faults I bought a cheap Tempo Sidekick off of
>>>> eBay. The stress test was very useful and why BT have nothing like it
>>>> I don't know. It applies a 1khz tone across the pair at 140v and you
>>>> can watch the HR jump about on the meter. I picked it up for 30 (but
>>>> I've seen them go for a 1) and it gave me enough of an edge to spend
>>>> more valuable time drinking tea ;-)
>>>
>>> So clearly you are one of the group you were slandering in previous
>>> post, the one where you called field engineers lazy & drink tea
>>>  all day. I suppose it's ok if you have a box van (that makes you
>>> second stage then) but all the end user facing engineers in this
>>> overall area have to put up with panel vans where you don't have room
>>> to drinl tea let alone make it.  before you ask it, no the electric
>>> kettle (like a lot of other bits of kit) isn't fit for puirpose.
>>
>> There you go jumping the gun and making wild assumptions again, in all
>> the years you have been posting here you've not gotten over doing that.
>>
>> To answer your points before you disappear up your own arse: 1) I
>> slandered nobody. I told the truth. 2) Yes, I had plenty of days
>> drinking tea and dodging work. I also had plenty of days doing work
>> other people were dodging or f**king up. 3) I've always gone that
>> 'extra mile'. Buying your own test kit to resolve multiple repeat
>> reports and basic things like actually knowing how to use the kit you
>> have tends to be helpful. 4) Customer facing always. Always apologising
>> for lazy, overpaid, thick engineers who spent the day cutting and
>> running. 4) I don't recall ever driving a box van. They were for the
>> extremely lazy twats (PPO's, PTO's etc.) 5) All electric kettles are
>> fit for their purpose and PAT tested.
>>
>> I've covered your points, keep digging - anything else?
> 
> Der you don't PAT test the electric kettles which are supposed to be on
> your panel van,

Yes you do. Anything on board that operates at 240v must be on the assets 
list and pat tested. You should have a tester visit you every six months. 
That is kettles, chargers, drills, extensions leads, WITHOD kits etc. If 
it had been a stove top kettle I could understand your 'Derrr' line, but 
as it is an electric like you have said there is no ambiguity. 

> as for buying kit to get problems resolved, been there
> done it then informally told to remove them as they have not been tested
> for HS reasons 

It depends if you run around trying to show everyone and act smart 
drawing attention to yourself, or if you shut your gob and just get on 
with the job. As for H&S, if they are tested and approved to work on the 
US & EU PSTN network, I am satisfied with that myself. Perhaps you are 
special?

> (how else could I use the old black Alcatel routers to
> test in  PCPs or joints for that matterwithout a 12v transverter ).

A Laptop and Voyager 105 is the norm (as it mostly still is with the 
current tools app). Before those we had a Presto Tester that we shared 
around if we needed to test where we could not plug an Efficient Networks 
router in. 

> I'm not the person digging holes, unless it's looking for buried joints
> or JB23s for that matter....

I would track those out myself thanks. I'm not the one trying to pass 
myself off as anything here as I am ex-bt and don't give a shit. Like I 
said, you done yet or do you want to carry on for the last word and make 
any more dumb statements?

kraftee passed an empty day by writing:

>>>> Well that's where we differ, later software on mine which clearly
>>>> states 95V, most probably HS have been involved

I've just two of my ex-bt mates on the phone. They both have the latest 
software on the Hawk and both can change the 95v, -95v, 500v & -500v on 
insulation and bridge modes. Looks like you must be really special and 
the only guy on BT to not have that feature. Can you check and see if you 
have a dim nut in contact with the keypad?

Klunk wrote:
> On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 16:43:06 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
> writing:
>
>> Klunk wrote:
>>> On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 08:10:05 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
>>> writing:
>>>
>>>> Klunk wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 20:29:29 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day
>>>>> by writing:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Klunk wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 23:08:09 +0100, kraftee passed an empty
>>>>>>> day by writing:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mortimer wrote:
>>>>>>>>> A customer has been having intermittent ADSL connection
>>>>>>>>> problems ever since she got broadband about 6 months ago
>>>>>>>>> (though I only learned of this a week ago) and the symptoms
>>>>>>>>> have got much more frequent over the past couple of weeks.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Can I check that I have done the correct diagnostic checks.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The router is a BT Voyager 210.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Symptoms are either:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1. Router DSL light remains on but Internet light (ADSL
>>>>>>>>> logon) goes out. This is the more frequent symptom.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2. Router DSL light goes out and router retrains. This
>>>>>>>>> happens less frequently.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Typically everything works fine for about an hour and then
>>>>>>>>> there is a flurry of problems with failures maybe every 10
>>>>>>>>> minutes or so, followed by another long fault-free period.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why would a router that has a good DSL carrier
>>>>>>>>> intermittently lose its logon and need to be manually
>>>>>>>>> connected again, either by rebooting the router or else by
>>>>>>>>> going into the router's config page and pressing the
>>>>>>>>> Connect button? I have put the router in the master test
>>>>>>>>> socket with all other wiring/equipment disconnected. I have
>>>>>>>>> replaced the RJ11-RJ11 cable and microfilter with an
>>>>>>>>> RJ11-BT cable to elimiminate the effect of faults in the
>>>>>>>>> cable or filter.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have checked the line stats and they are good: downstream
>>>>>>>>> attenuation of about 30 dB and noise margin of 8 dB, and
>>>>>>>>> upstream lower attenuation / higher margin. The results for
>>>>>>>>> the router in the master test socket are only about 2 dB
>>>>>>>>> better than those with the router in the normal house
>>>>>>>>> wiring with everythign connected, which suggests that
>>>>>>>>> wiring/equipment is not the cause. Despite these good
>>>>>>>>> figures, the router can be seen to lose sync at random -
>>>>>>>>> the stats then disappear.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have tried with another router (BT Voyager 220) and this
>>>>>>>>> reported the same stats and failed in the same way. I
>>>>>>>>> wasn't able to check the loss of ADSL logon connection when
>>>>>>>>> there was a good DSL carrier because this router was locked
>>>>>>>>> to work only with BT lines - I've since learned how to
>>>>>>>>> re-flash it to remove that restriction!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Does all of this point to a line fault between the master
>>>>>>>>> socket and the exchange? It may be significant that when I
>>>>>>>>> was doing all my testing, there was constant heavy rain
>>>>>>>>> which could cause water in cable joins on poles or in
>>>>>>>>> underground ducts.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've raised a call with the ISP but they haven't yet
>>>>>>>>> responded apart from acknowledging the ticket and
>>>>>>>>> escalating it to the correct department.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It could be an intermitent noise on the line, buggers to
>>>>>>>> find if there isn't any other diagnostics.  Had one today,
>>>>>>>> in the end I had to swap a pair as there were no fault
>>>>>>>> conditions other than this intermitent noise (& before
>>>>>>>> anybody says, no I didn't give it a blast with my Mega as
>>>>>>>> it's been taken away from me so I have to use the infamous
>>>>>>>> Hawk, looks like a ladies hand bag stuffed with bricks & is
>>>>>>>> twice as useless, most of the time).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The 'infamous hawk' has a 500v insulation tester built in,
>>>>>>> just like the old 18c megger. Don't say you missed that on
>>>>>>> the training and threw the booklet in the back of your van ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Believe or not I'm still waiting for the advanced Hawk
>>>>>> training for over 2 years & the no training was provided by 2
>>>>>> work shy coaches looking for a couple of days out of the
>>>>>> field..  As for coupling it to my PC via Bluetooth or serial
>>>>>> port I figured it out on my own but don't see a use for it
>>>>>> until they actually start to record the test readings, like
>>>>>> never as with the Harrier..
>>>>>
>>>>> It is not part of the advanced course. It is a basic feature of
>>>>> the unit. Normally it tests at 95v but pressing the button next
>>>>> to that figure cycles it through 95, 500, -500, -95. On later
>>>>> software they may have removed it but it still exists in the
>>>>> 'bridge' mode enabling a nice blast of 500v to be applied.
>>>>
>>>> Well that's where we differ, later software on mine which clearly
>>>> states 95V, most probably HS have been involved
>>>>
>>>>> For intermittent noisy faults I bought a cheap Tempo Sidekick
>>>>> off of eBay. The stress test was very useful and why BT have
>>>>> nothing like it I don't know. It applies a 1khz tone across the
>>>>> pair at 140v and you can watch the HR jump about on the meter.
>>>>> I picked it up for 30 (but I've seen them go for a 1) and it
>>>>> gave me enough of an edge to spend more valuable time drinking
>>>>> tea ;-)
>>>>
>>>> So clearly you are one of the group you were slandering in
>>>> previous post, the one where you called field engineers lazy &
>>>>  drink tea all day. I suppose it's ok if you have a box van
>>>> (that makes you second stage then) but all the end user facing
>>>> engineers in this overall area have to put up with panel vans
>>>> where you don't have room to drinl tea let alone make it.
>>>> before you ask it, no the electric kettle (like a lot of other
>>>> bits of kit) isn't fit for puirpose.
>>>
>>> There you go jumping the gun and making wild assumptions again,
>>> in all the years you have been posting here you've not gotten
>>> over doing that.
>>>
>>> To answer your points before you disappear up your own arse: 1) I
>>> slandered nobody. I told the truth. 2) Yes, I had plenty of days
>>> drinking tea and dodging work. I also had plenty of days doing
>>> work other people were dodging or f**king up. 3) I've always gone
>>> that 'extra mile'. Buying your own test kit to resolve multiple
>>> repeat reports and basic things like actually knowing how to use
>>> the kit you have tends to be helpful. 4) Customer facing always.
>>> Always apologising for lazy, overpaid, thick engineers who spent
>>> the day cutting and running. 4) I don't recall ever driving a box
>>> van. They were for the extremely lazy twats (PPO's, PTO's etc.)
>>> 5) All electric kettles are fit for their purpose and PAT tested.
>>>
>>> I've covered your points, keep digging - anything else?
>>
>> Der you don't PAT test the electric kettles which are supposed to
>> be on your panel van,
>
> Yes you do.

PAT test 12volt items, you most definitely don't know what the hell you are 
talking about, they've even removed the transvertors that were on some of 
the vans as they couldn't be PAT tested.

Like most of your noise you are correct only so far & then you make great 
leaps into the unknown second guessing yourself & then wondering why a chasm 
opens under your feet

 >
> A Laptop and Voyager 105 is the norm (as it mostly still is with the
> current tools app). Before those we had a Presto Tester that we
> shared around if we needed to test where we could not plug an
> Efficient Networks router in.

here again you are only partially correct, firstly the Presto tester 
(uselesss as they may be have been) has never been rolled out into the 
'field'.  Secondly the only way you could test a DSL circuit for the first 5 
years or so was with a Router, it was only later that they actually thought 
about the fact that the field engineer required a way to test away from a 
240v supply, it was around that time that the edict came down that the 
transvertors had to be removed as they weren't standard items & couldn't be 
tested.   One big problem now is that the only way to test some SDSL 
circuits is with a 240v router (& so the cycle goes on) the ones which can't 
be tested with the SDSL router supplied can't be tested at all, other than 
testing loop loss & checking all connections.
>
>> I'm not the person digging holes, unless it's looking for buried
>> joints or JB23s for that matter....
>
> I would track those out myself thanks. I'm not the one trying to
> pass myself off as anything here as I am ex-bt and don't give a
> shit.

I'll leave the dumb & sweeping statements to the enbittered ex BT engineers 
who have lost contact with what the realities of what is really going on in 
the field.

On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 20:40:41 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
writing:

As you persist in going on for the last word, let's look at you latest 
outburst:

"PAT test 12volt items, you most definitely don't know what the hell you 
are talking about."

You said 'Electric' you did NOT say 12v. If this is the best you can do 
fella then you have my pity. I always carried a 240v kettle and inverter 
myself - but as the company don't issue those, I guess you went without.

"Like most of your noise you are correct only so far & then you make 
great leaps into the unknown second guessing yourself & then wondering 
why a chasm opens under your feet"

And you're full of hot air and shit, the statement above illustrates the 
point.

"here again you are only partially correct, firstly the Presto tester 
(uselesss as they may be have been) has never been rolled out into the 
'field'."

Our ADSL manager was able to get hold of one which we shared. Again, you 
are - how do I put this - you are making "great leaps into the unknown 
second guessing yourself"

"Secondly the only way you could test a DSL circuit for the first 5 
years or so was with a Router"

Rubbish. 

"I'll leave the dumb & sweeping statements to the enbittered ex BT 
engineers who have lost contact with what the realities of what is really 
going on in the field."

You've already made yourself look a twat dude. You don't know how to use 
your test kit. You tell people to look at the instructions, but it turns 
out that you are wrong. You can wriggle and abuse all you like - but the 
facts speak for themselves. 

Are you done, or do you want to carry on for the last word? Perhaps you 
can enrol one of your mates (or other socks) and turn this into your 
usual double act?

If you spent more time working out how to do your job, and less time 
thinking you knew how to do it you may well promote yourself to 'shit 
engineer' from 'sick lame and lazy'. (Yes - I know who you are)

Klunk wrote:
> On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 20:40:41 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
> writing:
>
> As you persist in going on for the last word, let's look at you
> latest outburst:
>
> "PAT test 12volt items, you most definitely don't know what the
> hell you are talking about."
>
> You said 'Electric'

So you are postulating that 12v is not electric, well it it isn't what is 
it...

you did NOT say 12v. If this is the best you
> can do fella then you have my pity. I always carried a 240v kettle
> and inverter myself - but as the company don't issue those, I guess
> you went without.

Nope went out & bought a invertor only to be told that I must not carry one 
in the vandue to HS issues
>
> "Like most of your noise you are correct only so far & then you make
> great leaps into the unknown second guessing yourself & then
> wondering why a chasm opens under your feet"
>
> And you're full of hot air and shit, the statement above
> illustrates the point.

If you don't think 12v is electricity I think you've opened up yet another 
hole underneath yours..
>
> "here again you are only partially correct, firstly the Presto
> tester (uselesss as they may be have been) has never been rolled
> out into the 'field'."
>
> Our ADSL manager was able to get hold of one which we shared.
> Again, you are - how do I put this - you are making "great leaps
> into the unknown second guessing yourself"

So a Ping test proves that a circuit is fully finctional do you, how can you 
find out what the line losses are & SNR by using an outdated (yes it was 
outdated before we even got them delivered) large clumsy instrument like a 
Presto tester, which belong to BT Business anyway
>
> "Secondly the only way you could test a DSL circuit for the first 5
> years or so was with a Router"
>
> Rubbish.

Oh no it's not not if you were doing it the specified way.  It's a shame 
that I've got a CF29 or else I'd be able to tell you the software package as 
well, but you are so firmly entrenched in your own ideals it wouldn't make a 
jot of difference.
>
> "I'll leave the dumb & sweeping statements to the enbittered ex BT
> engineers who have lost contact with what the realities of what is
> really going on in the field."
>
> You've already made yourself look a twat dude. You don't know how
> to use your test kit. You tell people to look at the instructions,
> but it turns out that you are wrong.


Lets see, 12v is not electricity, using a ping test to prove fully 
functionality, admiting that you were one of those you were stating that 
were lazy, sitting in the back of your van all daydrinking tea, need I go 
on.


You can wriggle and abuse all
> you like - but the facts speak for themselves.

They certainly do & Openreach is better off without the likes of you..
>
> Are you done, or do you want to carry on for the last word? Perhaps
> you can enrol one of your mates (or other socks) and turn this into
> your usual double act?
>
> If you spent more time working out how to do your job, and less time
> thinking you knew how to do it you may well promote yourself to
> 'shit engineer' from 'sick lame and lazy'. (Yes - I know who you
> are)

Oh no you don't but never mind, but I'll leave you to your dreams....

On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 14:18:37 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
writing:

When you've learnt to use your kit come back and talk to the 
professionals you thick, lazy old c*nt.

"Klunk"  wrote in message 
news:484be331$0$2483$da0feed9@news.zen.co.uk...
> On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 14:18:37 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
> writing:
>
> When you've learnt to use your kit come back and talk to the
> professionals you thick, lazy old c*nt.

What an erudite, well-reasoned and polite comment!
Let's see more of that type of post here, please - I love to be entertained 
by such articulate wit!

;-)

George

On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 15:11:22 +0100, George Weston passed an empty day by
writing:

> "Klunk"  wrote in message
> news:484be331$0$2483$da0feed9@news.zen.co.uk...
>> On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 14:18:37 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
>> writing:
>>
>> When you've learnt to use your kit come back and talk to the
>> professionals you thick, lazy old c*nt.
> 
> What an erudite, well-reasoned and polite comment! Let's see more of
> that type of post here, please - I love to be entertained by such
> articulate wit!
> 
> ;-)
> 
> George

Then you need to get out more. Is this the start of the George & Mildred 
show then?

George Weston wrote:
> "Klunk"  wrote in message
> news:484be331$0$2483$da0feed9@news.zen.co.uk...
>> On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 14:18:37 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
>> writing:
>>
>> When you've learnt to use your kit come back and talk to the
>> professionals you thick, lazy old c*nt.
>
> What an erudite, well-reasoned and polite comment!
> Let's see more of that type of post here, please - I love to be
> entertained by such articulate wit!
>
> ;-)
>
> George

Never mind he will get tired of providing dis information & personal attacks 
soon as thry all do, I've hasd similar attacks in the past & will do in the 
future, it's all part of 'sticking your head above the parapet'

On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 15:31:27 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
writing:

> George Weston wrote:
>> "Klunk"  wrote in message
>> news:484be331$0$2483$da0feed9@news.zen.co.uk...
>>> On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 14:18:37 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
>>> writing:
>>>
>>> When you've learnt to use your kit come back and talk to the
>>> professionals you thick, lazy old c*nt.
>>
>> What an erudite, well-reasoned and polite comment! Let's see more of
>> that type of post here, please - I love to be entertained by such
>> articulate wit!
>>
>> ;-)
>>
>> George
> 
> Never mind he will get tired of providing dis information & personal
> attacks soon as thry all do, I've hasd similar attacks in the past &
> will do in the future, it's all part of 'sticking your head above the
> parapet'

I think you will find YOU started the personal attacks with the line 
about the instructions being thrown in the back of the van. The 
conclusion to that was the instructions were posted and you were wrong.

You then went on to moan that you could not flash a line with 500v but it 
turns out that you don't know how to use the test equipment properly.

Clearly, if you want to make digs at people you have to put up with it 
when the retaliate.

You got it wrong - get over it. I'm sorry you find that hard to handle 
but that is really a personal issue for you.

kraftee wrote:

> supposed DSL trained engineers.  When I was trained (& it was one of the few 
> you had to pass & yes some did fail) it was a residential 2 week course & it 
> still didn't cover all the areas required, nowadays it's 2 days in the local 
> 'skill centre' being taught by someone who just wants an easy couple of days 
> & then they are sent out with the simple instruction if the green LED is on 
> everything is ok.  I do really wish it was that simple..... 
> 
> 

Was 6 months for just the first part of BBC Engineering training 
(followed up by two more shorter theory and practical ones later).
Perhaps that explains why we learnt lots in those days!!

Mike

kraftee wrote:

> a couple of extra screwdrivers, 

Ah the joys of PO number ones and twos (still have a couple and the ends 
still work) I seem to remember they could aslo be bought at car boot 
sales when GPO engineers had surplus ones!

>everything else has had to go (including the knife which I  bought after der management said that engineers wern't responcable to carry 
one & so took them away from us)

One of our engineers, on being made the saftey man, went around the test 
room putting all the old Stanley knives (not the new retractible ones 
but those with a little clip-on metal shield) in the waste bin as they 
were 'dangerous'
Even tried to throw away the invaluable single sided razor blades for 
tape editing.

Mike

On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 22:14:52 UTC, m  wrote:

> Ah the joys of PO number ones and twos (still have a couple and the ends 
> still work) I seem to remember they could aslo be bought at car boot 
> sales when GPO engineers had surplus ones!

I bought a pair (two, actually) of Maun sidecutters (cantilever handles,
silver and black) secondhand (ex-BT) from a market stall in 1971. One 
pair disappeared after about 20 years, and the others gave up the ghost 
in 2005. Wonderful things.

-- 
Bob Eager
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

m wrote:
> kraftee wrote:
>
>> supposed DSL trained engineers.  When I was trained (& it was one
>> of the few you had to pass & yes some did fail) it was a
>> residential 2 week course & it still didn't cover all the areas
>> required, nowadays it's 2 days in the local 'skill centre' being
>> taught by someone who just wants an easy couple of days & then
>> they are sent out with the simple instruction if the green LED is
>> on everything is ok.  I do really wish it was that simple.....
>
> Was 6 months for just the first part of BBC Engineering training
> (followed up by two more shorter theory and practical ones later).
> Perhaps that explains why we learnt lots in those days!!
>
> Mike

Probably

In the good old days it was 6 months training to be Customer Apps & 
Linesman, now 2 weeks & minimal training, normally given by 'coaches' who 
are so work shy they've fogotten what the real world is like.  As one said 
they train the new starters to pass the questionare (not even exams) not how 
to do the job..

Jointer/UG here again was another 6 months in the field learning the hard 
way, from the bottom up, now it's a 2 week course.

Digital training (ISDN & the like) what training, it's just a pair of wires, 
so they said...

DSL was a 1/2 week residential course, which you had to pass & once again 
it's been dumbed down to a 2 day show & tell

Yes they cetainly know how not to keep the skill levels up in the field

>> On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 14:18:37 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
>> writing:
>>
>> When you've learnt to use your kit come back and talk to the
>> professionals you thick, lazy old c*nt.
>
> What an erudite, well-reasoned and polite comment!
> Let's see more of that type of post here, please - I love to be 
> entertained by such articulate wit!
>
> ;-)


Here here! Thank you so much for sharing it with me George because he is in 
my kill fille and I would have missed it otherwise!

Peter Crosland

On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 07:41:33 +0100, Peter Crosland passed an empty day by
writing:

>>> On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 14:18:37 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
>>> writing:
>>>
>>> When you've learnt to use your kit come back and talk to the
>>> professionals you thick, lazy old c*nt.
>>
>> What an erudite, well-reasoned and polite comment! Let's see more of
>> that type of post here, please - I love to be entertained by such
>> articulate wit!
>>
>> ;-)
> 
> 
> Here here! Thank you so much for sharing it with me George because he is
> in my kill fille and I would have missed it otherwise!
> 
> Peter Crosland

Good, that means you wont see this. Peter Crosland made himself look a 
twat in uk.legal just last week. You have to take your hat off to those 
who sulk when they get it so badly wrong. If he had anything (1) of 
interest (2) that was correct (3) amusing to say then I may care. As he 
does not tick any of those boxes then I don't give a flying moose.