On 09 Jun 2008 19:26:21 GMT, Klunk  wrote:

>On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 19:46:11 +0100, Andy Pandy passed an empty day by
>writing:
>
>With respect to you I am unable to read your response. The layout is such 
>a mess that I gave up.
>
>Indeed Tesco's had given me notice. I had telephoned them, and written to 
>them believing telling them I was not renewing. In hindsight I should 
>have closed down the DD, but as use(d) them for home insurance too, 
>closing that off would have meant they could not collect.
>
>I am happy I was not fobbed off at all. I tend to feel that my small 
>business bank manager, whom I have known as a friend for more years than 
>I can recall, is most likely to give me the best and correct advice as 
>opposed to a usenet poster trying to argue the toss over Direct Debit.
>
>As far as credit and debit cards go yes, I have them. I never use them 
>for anything at all other than cash withdrawal. When I need to use a card 
>online I stick with a pre-paid Virgin Mastercard and add funds to it for 
>just that transaction. It may seem an expensive and quirky way to do it - 
>but that is how I operate.
>
>There is no valid argument for direct debit being of any benefit to the 
>customer. The idea of 'set it and forget it' is clearly abused by some 
>companies. If a company needs to give you a couple of weeks notice before 
>they call for funds by direct debit then they might as well send a paper 
>bill! Perhaps they could then give you a discount for prompt payment via 
>online banking. The amount is direct and to the same account, but the 
>control stays with the customer.
>
>

What Andy Pandy said was that if the money has been taken without
*all* the DD conditions imposed then *your* bank must reimburse the
money into *your* account immediately.  

There is no need for *you* to contact the company concerned. there is
no need for *you* to wait until the your bank gets the money back from
the company.  

If that is not a valid argument that is a benefit to the customer then
I don't know what is?

Reading the information available on DD will explain what should
happen.  The problem is that the some bank staff don't understand it.
You should understand the guarantee and then, if necessary, force it
to be implemented in the case of DD errors. 

Lately you have been criticising Kraftee for his supposed ignorance in
the use of his test equipment.  May I suggest you bring yourself up to
speed about DDs and stop using examples of failure of bank staff as
evidence that DDs are "dangerous to an individuals wealth".

-- 
brightside S9

> What Andy Pandy said was that if the money has been taken without
> *all* the DD conditions imposed then *your* bank must reimburse the
> money into *your* account immediately.

If that is actually the caseand even so it is a rather blunt instrument. In 
fact you will find that most, if not all, Direct Debit authorities leave 
that date and amount variable. So there is not normally a fixed date. The 
other important thing to remember is that invoking the direct Debit 
guarantee normally results in the DD authority being cancelled so if you do 
want it to continue a brand new authority has to be set up.
>
> There is no need for *you* to contact the company concerned. there is
> no need for *you* to wait until the your bank gets the money back from
> the company.

True in theory but in practice you may be better off contacting the company 
and resolving matters that way. If you don't then matters are likely to get 
more complicated.

Having used the DD system for twenty years I have personally found it works 
well and I have only had to cancel one out of more than a thousand DD 
transactions. Not a bad record in my experience.

Peter Crosland

"Peter Crosland"  wrote in message
news:DK2dnTkvLcoddNPVnZ2dnUVZ8tSdnZ2d@posted.plusnet...
> > What Andy Pandy said was that if the money has been taken without
> > *all* the DD conditions imposed then *your* bank must reimburse
the
> > money into *your* account immediately.
>
> If that is actually the caseand even so it is a rather blunt
instrument. In
> fact you will find that most, if not all, Direct Debit authorities
leave
> that date and amount variable. So there is not normally a fixed
date.

Yes. But if it's variable then they must tell you 2 weeks in advance
of every variation.

Eg they can tell you once "we'll collect £25 on the 25th of the
month", then they don't need to tell you again until the amount or
date change.

But if the amount changes every month, eg a phone bill, they must tell
you the amount they are going to collect 2 weeks in advance every
single month, usually on your bill.

> The
> other important thing to remember is that invoking the direct Debit
> guarantee normally results in the DD authority being cancelled so if
you do
> want it to continue a brand new authority has to be set up.

Rubbish. When invoking the DD guarantee the bank will normally ask you
if you want to cancel it at the same time. If you say no, they won't.

> > There is no need for *you* to contact the company concerned. there
is
> > no need for *you* to wait until the your bank gets the money back
from
> > the company.
>
> True in theory but in practice you may be better off contacting the
company
> and resolving matters that way. If you don't then matters are likely
to get
> more complicated.

Not necessarily - in fact in one case when I disputed a payment with a
company, they *advised* me to invoke the DD guarantee as that was the
easiest way to get my money back.

> Having used the DD system for twenty years I have personally found
it works
> well and I have only had to cancel one out of more than a thousand
DD
> transactions. Not a bad record in my experience.

Yup - compared with other payment methods there tend to be fewer
problems - which is why companies tend to like it.

--
Andy

>> > What Andy Pandy said was that if the money has been taken without
>> > *all* the DD conditions imposed then *your* bank must reimburse
> the
>> > money into *your* account immediately.
>>
>> If that is actually the caseand even so it is a rather blunt
> instrument. In
>> fact you will find that most, if not all, Direct Debit authorities
> leave
>> that date and amount variable. So there is not normally a fixed
> date.
>
> Yes. But if it's variable then they must tell you 2 weeks in advance
> of every variation.
>
> Eg they can tell you once "we'll collect £25 on the 25th of the
> month", then they don't need to tell you again until the amount or
> date change.
>
> But if the amount changes every month, eg a phone bill, they must tell
> you the amount they are going to collect 2 weeks in advance every
> single month, usually on your bill.

And your point is what exactly?

>> The
>> other important thing to remember is that invoking the direct Debit
>> guarantee normally results in the DD authority being cancelled so if
> you do
>> want it to continue a brand new authority has to be set up.
>
> Rubbish. When invoking the DD guarantee the bank will normally ask you
> if you want to cancel it at the same time. If you say no, they won't.

Would you like to provide something to actually support that statement? I 
checked today and my bank, HSBC, confirmed that invoking the guarantee 
always results in the DD authority being cancelled.

>> > There is no need for *you* to contact the company concerned. there
> is
>> > no need for *you* to wait until the your bank gets the money back
> from
>> > the company.
>>
>> True in theory but in practice you may be better off contacting the
> company
>> and resolving matters that way. If you don't then matters are likely
> to get
>> more complicated.

> Not necessarily - in fact in one case when I disputed a payment with a
> company, they *advised* me to invoke the DD guarantee as that was the
> easiest way to get my money back.

Really? Which comany was this?
>
>> Having used the DD system for twenty years I have personally found
> it works
>> well and I have only had to cancel one out of more than a thousand
> DD
>> transactions. Not a bad record in my experience.
>
> Yup - compared with other payment methods there tend to be fewer
> problems - which is why companies tend to like it.

And your point is what exactly.

Peter Crosland

"Peter Crosland"  wrote in message
news:wIidnUpYuKFCvM3VRVnyiQA@posted.plusnet...
> >> > What Andy Pandy said was that if the money has been taken
without
> >> > *all* the DD conditions imposed then *your* bank must reimburse
> > the
> >> > money into *your* account immediately.
> >>
> >> If that is actually the caseand even so it is a rather blunt
> > instrument. In
> >> fact you will find that most, if not all, Direct Debit
authorities
> > leave
> >> that date and amount variable. So there is not normally a fixed
> > date.
> >
> > Yes. But if it's variable then they must tell you 2 weeks in
advance
> > of every variation.
> >
> > Eg they can tell you once "we'll collect £25 on the 25th of the
> > month", then they don't need to tell you again until the amount or
> > date change.
> >
> > But if the amount changes every month, eg a phone bill, they must
tell
> > you the amount they are going to collect 2 weeks in advance every
> > single month, usually on your bill.
>
> And your point is what exactly?

Your point seemed to be that a company could set up a variable DD and
then take what they want, when they want. They can't without telling
the customer every time the amount/date changes.

If that wasn't your point, what was it??

> >> The
> >> other important thing to remember is that invoking the direct
Debit
> >> guarantee normally results in the DD authority being cancelled so
if
> > you do
> >> want it to continue a brand new authority has to be set up.
> >
> > Rubbish. When invoking the DD guarantee the bank will normally ask
you
> > if you want to cancel it at the same time. If you say no, they
won't.
>
> Would you like to provide something to actually support that
statement? I
> checked today and my bank, HSBC, confirmed that invoking the
guarantee
> always results in the DD authority being cancelled.

Well they are talking bollox then. This *actually happened* to me, and
it was First Direct (who are part of HSBC). My credit card company
took a payment they shouldn't have, I phoned them to complain, they
said "invoke the DD guarantee".

So I did. FD asked me if I wanted to cancel the DD. I didn't because I
wanted to carry on paying the CC by DD.

I got my money back for that one transaction, and the DD remained and
was used for the CC payment the next month and after. I did not have
to resubmit the DD authority.

> >> > There is no need for *you* to contact the company concerned.
there
> > is
> >> > no need for *you* to wait until the your bank gets the money
back
> > from
> >> > the company.
> >>
> >> True in theory but in practice you may be better off contacting
the
> > company
> >> and resolving matters that way. If you don't then matters are
likely
> > to get
> >> more complicated.
>
> > Not necessarily - in fact in one case when I disputed a payment
with a
> > company, they *advised* me to invoke the DD guarantee as that was
the
> > easiest way to get my money back.
>
> Really? Which comany was this?

Nationwide (credit card). Bank was FD (as above).

> >> Having used the DD system for twenty years I have personally
found
> > it works
> >> well and I have only had to cancel one out of more than a
thousand
> > DD
> >> transactions. Not a bad record in my experience.
> >
> > Yup - compared with other payment methods there tend to be fewer
> > problems - which is why companies tend to like it.
>
> And your point is what exactly.

Erm, that companies like it, and hence offer discounts, or surcharges
for other payment methods. That is what this thread is about.

--
Andy

On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 20:05:02 +0100, "Peter Crosland"
 wrote:

[snip]
>>> The
>>> other important thing to remember is that invoking the direct Debit
>>> guarantee normally results in the DD authority being cancelled so if
>>> you do want it to continue a brand new authority has to be set up.
[snip]

The lack of understanding of DDs is endemic in the population at large
and, as I have said before, regrettably in banks' staff.

BACS have a very useful website where there is a FAQ.  There is also a
'contact us'. Questions can be asked and a speedy response received.
(Yes I have asked questions before, so I am relating my experience of
their timely responses)  So rather than speculate about whether a bank
will cancel a DD after invoking the guarantee.  I decided to ask them.

Here's what I asked:
If I invoke the DD guarantee because an organisation has debited money
without fulfilling the conditions for the DD, should my bank, in the
process of implementing the guarantee cancel the DD for future
payments?

And here is their answer:
Your bank will only cancel the DD under your Authority or if the
originator asks at the end of the agreement.  It would not be done as
part of the indemnity unless requested by yourself.

Peter it seems that your bank's staff are with the majority of bank
staff that can't handle correctly the DD guarantee process. Though I
read that Andy Pandy has a bank that got that bit right. Stick with
them Andy Pandy!

-- 
brightside S9

>>>> The
>>>> other important thing to remember is that invoking the direct Debit
>>>> guarantee normally results in the DD authority being cancelled so if
>>>> you do want it to continue a brand new authority has to be set up.
> [snip]
>
> The lack of understanding of DDs is endemic in the population at large
> and, as I have said before, regrettably in banks' staff.
>
> BACS have a very useful website where there is a FAQ.  There is also a
> 'contact us'. Questions can be asked and a speedy response received.
> (Yes I have asked questions before, so I am relating my experience of
> their timely responses)  So rather than speculate about whether a bank
> will cancel a DD after invoking the guarantee.  I decided to ask them.
>
> Here's what I asked:
> If I invoke the DD guarantee because an organisation has debited money
> without fulfilling the conditions for the DD, should my bank, in the
> process of implementing the guarantee cancel the DD for future
> payments?
>
> And here is their answer:
> Your bank will only cancel the DD under your Authority or if the
> originator asks at the end of the agreement.  It would not be done as
> part of the indemnity unless requested by yourself.
>
> Peter it seems that your bank's staff are with the majority of bank
> staff that can't handle correctly the DD guarantee process. Though I
> read that Andy Pandy has a bank that got that bit right. Stick with
> them Andy Pandy!


The strange thing is that I also bank with First Direct and they gave me 
advice that was the opposite of that given by them to Andy! Of course I 
don't know when he had the advice but mine was a couple of months ago.  I 
find it odd because most of the standard things like this are usually 
displayed for call centre staff to assist them.

Peter Crosland