Phone doesn’t ring

I have read most of the mails about phones not ringing but I still
need to seek advice.

I have a main socket. Plugged into this is an adsl filter and a
connection to an Orchid box.

Plugged into the orchid box is a connector which distributes to about
six phone sockets.

Only two sockets are in use - one for the dect handset system and the
other for a ordinary corded phone.

The corded phone does not ring when it is plugged into an extension
socket. It rings when it is plugged into he main socket. This is a
very recent phenomenon.

It rings when it is plugged into the Orchid box but when the connector
for the phone sockets is added to the Orchid box it will not ring.

The dect handsets whose base station is plugged to an extension socket
all ring properly, (if the corded phone is plugged into the same
socket it doesn’t ring)

The wiring was originally BT - only modified by them in the 70s (?) to
replace the old brass(?) plugs or sockets with RJ11 plugs and sockets
and putting in a master socket.

As I say this is a recent phenomenon, everything has worked fine until
a few weeks ago,  but it coincides with another problem with the dect
handsets which I described in http://tinyurl.com/4zo7wf although that
may be a symptom of an underlying problem.

I would appreciate any thoughts or suggestions anyone has.
Also any suggestions of where I would find a phone engineer.

On Jun 5, 11:35 am, chasman5_1...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Phone doesn’t ring
>
> I have read most of the mails about phones not ringing but I still
> need to seek advice.
>
> I have a main socket. Plugged into this is an adsl filter and a
> connection to an Orchid box.
>
> Plugged into the orchid box is a connector which distributes to about
> six phone sockets.
>
> Only two sockets are in use - one for the dect handset system and the
> other for a ordinary corded phone.
>
> The corded phone does not ring when it is plugged into an extension
> socket. It rings when it is plugged into he main socket. This is a
> very recent phenomenon.
>
> It rings when it is plugged into the Orchid box but when the connector
> for the phone sockets is added to the Orchid box it will not ring.
>
> The dect handsets whose base station is plugged to an extension socket
> all ring properly, (if the corded phone is plugged into the same
> socket it doesn’t ring)
>
> The wiring was originally BT - only modified by them in the 70s (?) to
> replace the old brass(?) plugs or sockets with RJ11 plugs and sockets
> and putting in a master socket.
>
> As I say this is a recent phenomenon, everything has worked fine until
> a few weeks ago,  but it coincides with another problem with the dect
> handsets which I described inhttp://tinyurl.com/4zo7wfalthough that
> may be a symptom of an underlying problem.
>
> I would appreciate any thoughts or suggestions anyone has.
> Also any suggestions of where I would find a phone engineer.

Perhaps the power supplied via the line is insufficient to supply all
the devices attached, which is why the phone rings when plugged into
the master socket, but not when everything else is plugged in.

That's is certainly possible but the corded phone and the dect base
station are both rated a 1 REM i.e. a total of 2 REM against a limit
of 4 REM.

It has all worked in the past would BT reduce to power supply like
that?


On Jun 5, 12:55 pm, Ash  wrote:
> On Jun 5, 11:35 am, chasman5_1...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > Phone doesn’t ring
>
>
> Perhaps the power supplied via the line is insufficient to supply all
> the devices attached, which is why the phone rings when plugged into
> the master socket, but not when everything else is plugged in.

I should have said REN as in Ring Equivalent Number


On Jun 5, 1:04 pm, chasman5_1...@yahoo.com wrote:
> That's is certainly possible but the corded phone and the dect base
> station are both rated a 1 REM i.e. a total of 2 REM against a limit
> of 4 REM.
>
> It has all worked in the past would BT reduce to power supply like
> that?

On 05/06/2008 13:04, chasman5_1999@yahoo.com wrote:

> That's is certainly possible but the corded phone and the dect base
> station are both rated a 1 REM i.e. a total of 2 REM against a limit
> of 4 REM.
> 
> It has all worked in the past would BT reduce to power supply like
> that?

is the orchid dialler line powered, or mains powered?

you could add a REN booster between the orchid box and the 6-way connector.

In news:b8c22ae5-8285-4595-a0ed-787072d3dfd9@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com,
chasman5_1999@yahoo.com  typed:
> Phone doesn’t ring
>
> I have read most of the mails about phones not ringing but I still
> need to seek advice.
>
> I have a main socket. Plugged into this is an adsl filter and a
> connection to an Orchid box.
>
> Plugged into the orchid box is a connector which distributes to about
> six phone sockets.
>
> Only two sockets are in use - one for the dect handset system and the
> other for a ordinary corded phone.
>
> The corded phone does not ring when it is plugged into an extension
> socket. It rings when it is plugged into he main socket. This is a
> very recent phenomenon.
>
> It rings when it is plugged into the Orchid box but when the connector
> for the phone sockets is added to the Orchid box it will not ring.
>
> The dect handsets whose base station is plugged to an extension socket
> all ring properly, (if the corded phone is plugged into the same
> socket it doesn’t ring)
>
> The wiring was originally BT - only modified by them in the 70s (?) to
> replace the old brass(?) plugs or sockets with RJ11 plugs and sockets
> and putting in a master socket.
>
> As I say this is a recent phenomenon, everything has worked fine until
> a few weeks ago,  but it coincides with another problem with the dect
> handsets which I described in http://tinyurl.com/4zo7wf although that
> may be a symptom of an underlying problem.
>
> I would appreciate any thoughts or suggestions anyone has.
> Also any suggestions of where I would find a phone engineer.

It sounds to me as though the most likely reason for it suddenly stopping 
working is that the cable to the extension phone sockets has been damaged 
somewhere along its route, possible where it crosses a doorway under a 
carpet, or the wiring to a socket if it has been disturbed.  Trace the cable 
all the way and check that it is physically intact, and if necessary unscrew 
the sockets to check that a wire hasn't copme adrift.
-- 

Don

Thanks Don, I guess I will have to do this although something I dread.
I was hoping there might be a less labourious suggestion I will let
you know result.

> It sounds to me as though the most likely reason for it suddenly stopping
> working is that the cable to the extension phone sockets has been damaged
> somewhere along its route, possible where it crosses a doorway under a
> carpet, or the wiring to a socket if it has been disturbed.  Trace the cable
> all the way and check that it is physically intact, and if necessary unscrew
> the sockets to check that a wire hasn't copme adrift.
> --
>
> Don

In article <4c5ea8b3-53a1-4b18-be19-c3d8e2025216
@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, chasman5_1999@yahoo.com says...
> Thanks Don, I guess I will have to do this although something I dread.
> I was hoping there might be a less labourious suggestion I will let
> you know result.
 
Try plugging the non-ringing phone in via a plug-in ADSL filter.  This 
contains a ringing capacitor so, if that works, the "pin-3" wire has 
been damaged or otherwise disconnected.

Also make sure the disconnection isn't in the phone's wire itself 

The UK-style ADSL filter does nothing on the ADSL side, except provide 
socket-type conversion.  The Phone side provides a low-pass filter and a 
ringing capacitor. It can, therefore, be used to provide the ringing 
circuit for a phone connected using a single twisted-pair only.

-- 
John W
To mail me replace the obvious with .co.uk twice

Well I have checked the cabling and sockets and they appear to be ok,
(can't be 100% certain as some is petty well hidden but can be pretty
sure). The only thing of interest was to discover that the BT sockets
has BT cabling in the old red, green, blue, and brown colours.

So I seem to be back at square one. :(

> > It sounds to me as though the most likely reason for it suddenly stopping
> > working is that the cable to the extension phone sockets has been damaged
> > somewhere along its route, possible where it crosses a doorway under a
> > carpet, or the wiring to a socket if it has been disturbed.  Trace the cable
> > all the way and check that it is physically intact, and if necessary unscrew
> > the sockets to check that a wire hasn't copme adrift.
> > --
>
> > Don

Thanks John,

Yes plugging the corded phone into one of the extension sockets via
the adsl filter, the phone rings, yay.

So your conclusion would be that "pin-3' wire has been damaged.

I don't really know how I might track that down - maybe it would be
simpler to just put am adsl filter on the socket?



> Try plugging the non-ringing phone in via a plug-in ADSL filter.  This
> contains a ringing capacitor so, if that works, the "pin-3" wire has
> been damaged or otherwise disconnected.
>
> Also make sure the disconnection isn't in the phone's wire itself
>
> The UK-style ADSL filter does nothing on the ADSL side, except provide
> socket-type conversion.  The Phone side provides a low-pass filter and a> ringing capacitor. It can, therefore, be used to provide the ringing
> circuit for a phone connected using a single twisted-pair only.
>
> --
> John W
> To mail me replace the obvious with .co.uk twice

In article <b9b54993-c5aa-44ec-bc8f-96fb569bd7a1@
56g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>, chasman5_1999@yahoo.com says...
> 
> Thanks John,
> 
> Yes plugging the corded phone into one of the extension sockets via
> the adsl filter, the phone rings, yay.
> 
> So your conclusion would be that "pin-3' wire has been damaged.
> 
> I don't really know how I might track that down - maybe it would be
> simpler to just put am adsl filter on the socket?

That's probably the quickest solution :-) 

The pin3 disconnect could be at any of the punch-down blocks or die to a 
carpet tack, a pinched cable or WHY. typically the disconnect is at the 
connection you've just disturbed - have you removed the master 
faceplate? Did you replace it with a faceplate filter?  How did you 
remake the connections?  If the cable wasn't correctly anchored, you 
could have disturbed the connections moving things around and 
(fortunately) only the ring wire has gone dis.
 

-- 
John W
To mail me replace the obvious with .co.uk twice

Thanks again John,

I have checked all the connections so I think that the cable must be
damaged somewhere.

Rather than rewire the phone cables  think I shall follow the advice
on

http://www.wppltd.demon.co.uk/WPP/Wiring/UK_telephone/Installation/installation.html

and
-------
"OK - so you have tested the cables and there is 150 yds of cable
buried in the newly decorated wall and only 2 wires have continuity -
what do I do??

This is about the only occasion where you cheat and use a second
master socket.  Ideally you use one designed for PABX use but beggars
can't be choosers, it's normally 19:30 and mother in law is due to
arrive in twenty minutes.  Nip down to your local DIY shed and buy a
MASTER socket.

The second master gives you back your ring signal so connect the two
working wires to terminals 2 and 5 on the new master and hope for the
best"
----------------------

But I will have to find a master socket first but in the meantime I
wil go with an adsl filter.

Thanks again for your help.




> > Yes plugging the corded phone into one of the extension sockets via
> > the adsl filter, the phone rings, yay.
>
> > So your conclusion would be that "pin-3' wire has been damaged.
>
> > I don't really know how I might track that down - maybe it would be
> > simpler to just put am adsl filter on the socket?
>
> That's probably the quickest solution :-)
>
> The pin3 disconnect could be at any of the punch-down blocks or die to a
> carpet tack, a pinched cable or WHY. typically the disconnect is at the
> connection you've just disturbed - have you removed the master
> faceplate? Did you replace it with a faceplate filter?  How did you
> remake the connections?  If the cable wasn't correctly anchored, you
> could have disturbed the connections moving things around and
> (fortunately) only the ring wire has gone dis.
>
> --
> John W
> To mail me replace the obvious with .co.uk twice

or maybe I could just fit a Ring Capacitor where I am told that a BT
slave socket can be converted to a PBX master type by the addition of
a 1.5 uF Bipolar Capacitor between pins 2 and 3 of the BT socket.

In article <97e34451-bdb7-418e-84cd-
b77c88b2eace@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, chasman5_1999@yahoo.com 
says...
> 
> or maybe I could just fit a Ring Capacitor where I am told that a BT
> slave socket can be converted to a PBX master type by the addition of
> a 1.5 uF Bipolar Capacitor between pins 2 and 3 of the BT socket.

If you have to buy the capacitor, then both it or a PBX master is 
available from: 
http://www.solwise.co.uk/telesun-extension-sockets.htm 
It's probably better to use the one-piece master than the NTE5 type to 
avoid future confusion as to which is the real master socket. :-) If you 
want to have ADSL access at this point, then look at their ADSL-FFP85D, 
however, I prefer ADSLnation for filters. 
http://www.adslnation.com/products/xtf.php

-- 
John W
To mail me replace the obvious with .co.uk twice

John ,
Many thanks again

Well I ordered from Solwise a Ring Capacitor with the description
A BT slave socket can be converted to a PBX master type by the
addition of a 1.5 uF Bipolar Capacitor between pins 2 and 3 of the BT
socket. 

They sent a Ring Capacitor 2.2 uF 63V Bi Polar Ring Capacitor.

I don't know whether the difference in capacitance is significant or
not. I attached it to pins 2 and 3 with the result that there is no
dial tome - just a low level buzzing.

I changed it to pins 5 and 3 which restored the dial tone but did not
enable the phone to ring. (I then removed it)

So I am slightly lost - did they send the wrong capacitor or is my
circuitry up the spout or should I go get a secondary master socket?

In article <2a61eb81-5d1b-410e-a117-13d11e995251@
26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>, chasman5_1999@yahoo.com says...
> Well I ordered from Solwise a Ring Capacitor with the description
> A BT slave socket can be converted to a PBX master type by the
> addition of a 1.5 uF Bipolar Capacitor between pins 2 and 3 of the BT
> socket. 
> 
> They sent a Ring Capacitor 2.2 uF 63V Bi Polar Ring Capacitor.
> 
> I don't know whether the difference in capacitance is significant or
> not. I attached it to pins 2 and 3 with the result that there is no
> dial tome - just a low level buzzing.
> 
> I changed it to pins 5 and 3 which restored the dial tone but did not
> enable the phone to ring. (I then removed it)
> 
> So I am slightly lost - did they send the wrong capacitor or is my
> circuitry up the spout or should I go get a secondary master socket?

There is no problem using a 2.2uF capacitor, it just gives a higher ring 
current.  Make sure you sleave the leads so it doesn't short out when 
re-assembled.

You have removed the old, faulty pin-3 wire haven't you?

Your diagnosis sounds like the phone could be faulty, but, as a quick 
test can you check the capacitor itself isn't passing a dc current.  An 
ohm-meter or low voltage lamp and battery can check this (it should 
settle down to a high resistance after a short time).  Also check there 
are no other wires on your slave socket, only those to 2 and 5, and that 
the colours of the wires are the same on each end of the cable, not 
reversed. Check the connector wires in the socket are straight and not 
touching and the phone plug has all the plastic separators between the 
connectors. These are necessary so the socket pins don't fall off the 
plug contacts and short to adjacent contacts when the plug is inserted.

Putting the capacitor between 5 and 3 won't work, since the phones 
"bell" is between the same pins.  All you have done is put the capacitor 
across the bell, not in series with it. The capacitor is there to block 
the normal line dc current but pass the ac ringing current onto the bell 
between pins 3 and 5. I suggest you looking at 
http://www.readman.dsl.pipex.com/other/UKphonecatwiring.htm or 
http://www.wppltd.demon.co.uk/WPP/Wiring/UK_telephone/uk_telephone.html 
- What you should have done is shown in the first circuit diagram, 
without the resistor, since that's only needed in the BT master, not in 
PBX masters.  

As a last resort, check that the wires in the cable are continuous end-
to-end - what has broken pin-3 wire could have damaged another.  Remove 
the wires on pins 2 & 5 on the master socket and temporarily twist them 
together.  You should then read a low resistance between pins 2 and 5 at 
the slave socket if the wires aren't broken.

I've seen a few problems like this, where a carpet fitter has damaged a 
cable with a tack or someone has trapped the cable beneath a fitting or 
in a door.

-- 
John W
To mail me replace the obvious with co.uk twice

On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 06:53:01 -0700, chasman5_1999 passed an empty day by
writing:

> Well I ordered from Solwise a Ring Capacitor with the description A BT
> slave socket can be converted to a PBX master type by the addition of a
> 1.5 uF Bipolar Capacitor between pins 2 and 3 of the BT socket.
> 
> They sent a Ring Capacitor 2.2 uF 63V Bi Polar Ring Capacitor.
> 
> I don't know whether the difference in capacitance is significant or
> not. I attached it to pins 2 and 3 with the result that there is no dial
> tome - just a low level buzzing.
> 
> I changed it to pins 5 and 3 which restored the dial tone but did not
> enable the phone to ring. (I then removed it)
> 
> So I am slightly lost - did they send the wrong capacitor or is my
> circuitry up the spout or should I go get a secondary master socket?

They are dead handy at that. A mate of mine ordered a load of plastic IDC 
inserters to give away and they sent entirely the wrong items. They did 
not match the description, were not as pictured and did not do the job.

A couple of things jump out. First of all the voltage of that cap is way 
way down. The ring is 90v plus. Have you got a 470k resistor you can put 
in from 3 to 5 at the same time? I'm not sure that the higher capacitance 
would make all that much difference. It is only used to keep the DC out.

On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 15:42:04 +0100, John Weston passed an empty day by
writing:

> In article <2a61eb81-5d1b-410e-a117-13d11e995251@
> 26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>, chasman5_1999@yahoo.com says...
>> Well I ordered from Solwise a Ring Capacitor with the description A BT
>> slave socket can be converted to a PBX master type by the addition of a
>> 1.5 uF Bipolar Capacitor between pins 2 and 3 of the BT socket.
>> 
>> They sent a Ring Capacitor 2.2 uF 63V Bi Polar Ring Capacitor.
>> 
>> I don't know whether the difference in capacitance is significant or
>> not. I attached it to pins 2 and 3 with the result that there is no
>> dial tome - just a low level buzzing.
>> 
>> I changed it to pins 5 and 3 which restored the dial tone but did not
>> enable the phone to ring. (I then removed it)
>> 
>> So I am slightly lost - did they send the wrong capacitor or is my
>> circuitry up the spout or should I go get a secondary master socket?
> 
> There is no problem using a 2.2uF capacitor, it just gives a higher ring
> current.  Make sure you sleave the leads so it doesn't short out when
> re-assembled.
> 
> You have removed the old, faulty pin-3 wire haven't you?
> 
> Your diagnosis sounds like the phone could be faulty, but, as a quick
> test can you check the capacitor itself isn't passing a dc current.  An
> ohm-meter or low voltage lamp and battery can check this (it should
> settle down to a high resistance after a short time).  Also check there
> are no other wires on your slave socket, only those to 2 and 5, and that
> the colours of the wires are the same on each end of the cable, not
> reversed. Check the connector wires in the socket are straight and not
> touching and the phone plug has all the plastic separators between the
> connectors. These are necessary so the socket pins don't fall off the
> plug contacts and short to adjacent contacts when the plug is inserted.
> 
> Putting the capacitor between 5 and 3 won't work, since the phones
> "bell" is between the same pins.  All you have done is put the capacitor
> across the bell, not in series with it. The capacitor is there to block
> the normal line dc current but pass the ac ringing current onto the bell
> between pins 3 and 5. I suggest you looking at
> http://www.readman.dsl.pipex.com/other/UKphonecatwiring.htm or
> http://www.wppltd.demon.co.uk/WPP/Wiring/UK_telephone/uk_telephone.html
> - What you should have done is shown in the first circuit diagram,
> without the resistor, since that's only needed in the BT master, not in
> PBX masters.
> 
> As a last resort, check that the wires in the cable are continuous end-
> to-end - what has broken pin-3 wire could have damaged another.  Remove
> the wires on pins 2 & 5 on the master socket and temporarily twist them
> together.  You should then read a low resistance between pins 2 and 5 at
> the slave socket if the wires aren't broken.
> 
> I've seen a few problems like this, where a carpet fitter has damaged a
> cable with a tack or someone has trapped the cable beneath a fitting or
> in a door.

Ooopps - that's a much better answer - ignore mine, my news server is 
playing catchup.

Thank you John and Klunk for your help.

I have given up trying to find the fault on the ring line - too
difficult to check all the wiring.

I have bought an adsl filter and the phone rings quite happily.

Thanks again.