I want to get my BT line reconnected so I can get ADSL broadband, so I
phoned BT to ask whether there's a DACS on my line. All they said was
that if there was it would be up to my broadband provider to arrange
for it to be removed.

I'm not happy about the possibility of paying to have the line
reconnected and signing a contract with a broadband provider only to
find my connection's rubbish due to the presence of a DACS and then
perhaps find that my provider has trouble getting BT to remove it.

Is there anything I can do to ensure my line won't have a DACS on it
before I get it reconnected or am I worrying too much and would BT
remove one if present as soon as asked by my provider?

Doughboy

Doughboy wrote:

> I want to get my BT line reconnected so I can get ADSL broadband, so I
> phoned BT to ask whether there's a DACS on my line. All they said was
> that if there was it would be up to my broadband provider to arrange
> for it to be removed.
>
> I'm not happy about the possibility of paying to have the line
> reconnected and signing a contract with a broadband provider only to
> find my connection's rubbish due to the presence of a DACS and then
> perhaps find that my provider has trouble getting BT to remove it.
>
> Is there anything I can do to ensure my line won't have a DACS on it
> before I get it reconnected or am I worrying too much and would BT
> remove one if present as soon as asked by my provider?

How much are they planning to charge you to reconnect the line ?

It might make as much sense to request a new line (sans DACS).

Graham

>I want to get my BT line reconnected so I can get ADSL broadband, so I
> phoned BT to ask whether there's a DACS on my line. All they said was
> that if there was it would be up to my broadband provider to arrange
> for it to be removed.
>
> I'm not happy about the possibility of paying to have the line
> reconnected and signing a contract with a broadband provider only to
> find my connection's rubbish due to the presence of a DACS and then
> perhaps find that my provider has trouble getting BT to remove it.
>
> Is there anything I can do to ensure my line won't have a DACS on it
> before I get it reconnected or am I worrying too much and would BT
> remove one if present as soon as asked by my provider?


Choose an ISP such as Plusnet that will arrange for the line to be connected 
at the same time as broadband. If there is a DACS and it cannot be removed 
the order will be rejected by BT.

Peter Crosland

Peter Crosland wrote:

> >I want to get my BT line reconnected so I can get ADSL broadband, so I
> > phoned BT to ask whether there's a DACS on my line. All they said was
> > that if there was it would be up to my broadband provider to arrange
> > for it to be removed.
> >
> > I'm not happy about the possibility of paying to have the line
> > reconnected and signing a contract with a broadband provider only to
> > find my connection's rubbish due to the presence of a DACS and then
> > perhaps find that my provider has trouble getting BT to remove it.
> >
> > Is there anything I can do to ensure my line won't have a DACS on it
> > before I get it reconnected or am I worrying too much and would BT
> > remove one if present as soon as asked by my provider?
>
> Choose an ISP such as Plusnet that will arrange for the line to be connected
> at the same time as broadband. If there is a DACS and it cannot be removed
> the order will be rejected by BT.

You mean as in using PN as a telco i.e. 100% LLU'd ?

Graham

On Sat, 31 May 2008 22:41:06 +0100, Eeyore
 wrote:

>
>
>Doughboy wrote:
>
>> I want to get my BT line reconnected so I can get ADSL broadband, so I
>> phoned BT to ask whether there's a DACS on my line. All they said was
>> that if there was it would be up to my broadband provider to arrange
>> for it to be removed.
>>
>> I'm not happy about the possibility of paying to have the line
>> reconnected and signing a contract with a broadband provider only to
>> find my connection's rubbish due to the presence of a DACS and then
>> perhaps find that my provider has trouble getting BT to remove it.
>>
>> Is there anything I can do to ensure my line won't have a DACS on it
>> before I get it reconnected or am I worrying too much and would BT
>> remove one if present as soon as asked by my provider?
>
>How much are they planning to charge you to reconnect the line ?
>
>It might make as much sense to request a new line (sans DACS).
>
>Graham

I'm planning on taking the offer currently available for installation
for £30.

I haven't had a BT service here for about 8 years so I don't know if
there's still a line that can be reconnected but when I previously
enquired I was told that I would have to pay the full installation
charge (I didn't discuss the offer at that time as I just wanted to
find out the situation). Are you saying that if I request a new line
rather than a reconnect, I can stipulate it must be without DACS? 

Doughboy

On Sat, 31 May 2008 22:52:52 +0100, "Peter Crosland"
 wrote:

>>I want to get my BT line reconnected so I can get ADSL broadband, so I
>> phoned BT to ask whether there's a DACS on my line. All they said was
>> that if there was it would be up to my broadband provider to arrange
>> for it to be removed.
>>
>> I'm not happy about the possibility of paying to have the line
>> reconnected and signing a contract with a broadband provider only to
>> find my connection's rubbish due to the presence of a DACS and then
>> perhaps find that my provider has trouble getting BT to remove it.
>>
>> Is there anything I can do to ensure my line won't have a DACS on it
>> before I get it reconnected or am I worrying too much and would BT
>> remove one if present as soon as asked by my provider?
>
>
>Choose an ISP such as Plusnet that will arrange for the line to be connected 
>at the same time as broadband. If there is a DACS and it cannot be removed 
>the order will be rejected by BT.
>
>Peter Crosland 

I'm planning on using BT for line rental and going with Be or O2 for
BB and as far as I know, they require me to have a working line before
I can sign-up with them.

Doughboy

Doughboy wrote:

> Eeyore wrote:
> >Doughboy wrote:
> >
> >> I want to get my BT line reconnected so I can get ADSL broadband, so I
> >> phoned BT to ask whether there's a DACS on my line. All they said was
> >> that if there was it would be up to my broadband provider to arrange
> >> for it to be removed.
> >>
> >> I'm not happy about the possibility of paying to have the line
> >> reconnected and signing a contract with a broadband provider only to
> >> find my connection's rubbish due to the presence of a DACS and then
> >> perhaps find that my provider has trouble getting BT to remove it.
> >>
> >> Is there anything I can do to ensure my line won't have a DACS on it
> >> before I get it reconnected or am I worrying too much and would BT
> >> remove one if present as soon as asked by my provider?
> >
> >How much are they planning to charge you to reconnect the line ?
> >
> >It might make as much sense to request a new line (sans DACS).
>
> I'm planning on taking the offer currently available for installation
> for £30.

Installation of what exactly ?


> I haven't had a BT service here for about 8 years so I don't know if
> there's still a line that can be reconnected but when I previously
> enquired I was told that I would have to pay the full installation
> charge

So, they've dropped price this now ?


> (I didn't discuss the offer at that time as I just wanted to
> find out the situation). Are you saying that if I request a new line
> rather than a reconnect, I can stipulate it must be without DACS?

I 'believe' so because it's a *new* line and shouldn't require a DACS. But a
new line is ~ £125.

Graham

Doughboy wrote:

> "Peter Crosland"
> >
> >Choose an ISP such as Plusnet that will arrange for the line to be connected
> >at the same time as broadband. If there is a DACS and it cannot be removed
> >the order will be rejected by BT.
> >
> >Peter Crosland
>
> I'm planning on using BT for line rental and going with Be or O2 for
> BB and as far as I know, they require me to have a working line before
> I can sign-up with them.

Hmmmmm, I believe some of the better ISPs can do a 'parallel' order actually.
Andrews and Arnold come to mind. You should ask around. I'd ask Idnet too.

Graham

On Sun, 01 Jun 2008 03:00:01 +0100, Eeyore
 wrote:

>
>
>Doughboy wrote:
>
>> Eeyore wrote:
>> >Doughboy wrote:
>> >
>> >> I want to get my BT line reconnected so I can get ADSL broadband, so I
>> >> phoned BT to ask whether there's a DACS on my line. All they said was
>> >> that if there was it would be up to my broadband provider to arrange
>> >> for it to be removed.
>> >>
>> >> I'm not happy about the possibility of paying to have the line
>> >> reconnected and signing a contract with a broadband provider only to
>> >> find my connection's rubbish due to the presence of a DACS and then
>> >> perhaps find that my provider has trouble getting BT to remove it.
>> >>
>> >> Is there anything I can do to ensure my line won't have a DACS on it
>> >> before I get it reconnected or am I worrying too much and would BT
>> >> remove one if present as soon as asked by my provider?
>> >
>> >How much are they planning to charge you to reconnect the line ?
>> >
>> >It might make as much sense to request a new line (sans DACS).
>>
>> I'm planning on taking the offer currently available for installation
>> for £30.
>
>Installation of what exactly ?

The offer is £95 discount off the standard new line connection charge
of £125.

>> I haven't had a BT service here for about 8 years so I don't know if
>> there's still a line that can be reconnected but when I previously
>> enquired I was told that I would have to pay the full installation
>> charge
>
>So, they've dropped price this now ?

See above

>> (I didn't discuss the offer at that time as I just wanted to
>> find out the situation). Are you saying that if I request a new line
>> rather than a reconnect, I can stipulate it must be without DACS?
>
>I 'believe' so because it's a *new* line and shouldn't require a DACS. But a
>new line is ~ £125.

I'd be nervous that they might just stick a DACS on a neighbours line
to provide me with my new line, unless they've promised not to in
advance.

Doughboy

On Sun, 01 Jun 2008 03:02:20 +0100, Eeyore
 wrote:

>
>
>Doughboy wrote:
>
>> "Peter Crosland"
>> >
>> >Choose an ISP such as Plusnet that will arrange for the line to be connected
>> >at the same time as broadband. If there is a DACS and it cannot be removed
>> >the order will be rejected by BT.
>> >
>> >Peter Crosland
>>
>> I'm planning on using BT for line rental and going with Be or O2 for
>> BB and as far as I know, they require me to have a working line before
>> I can sign-up with them.
>
>Hmmmmm, I believe some of the better ISPs can do a 'parallel' order actually.
>Andrews and Arnold come to mind. You should ask around. I'd ask Idnet too.
>
>Graham

Thanks, but Idnet's download limits rule it out for me and I'd have to
pay the full line connection charge if I did it through anyone but BT.

Doughboy

>> >I want to get my BT line reconnected so I can get ADSL broadband, so I
>> > phoned BT to ask whether there's a DACS on my line. All they said was
>> > that if there was it would be up to my broadband provider to arrange
>> > for it to be removed.
>> >
>> > I'm not happy about the possibility of paying to have the line
>> > reconnected and signing a contract with a broadband provider only to
>> > find my connection's rubbish due to the presence of a DACS and then
>> > perhaps find that my provider has trouble getting BT to remove it.

Broadband will not work at all with a DACS fitted on the line.

>> > Is there anything I can do to ensure my line won't have a DACS on it
>> > before I get it reconnected or am I worrying too much and would BT
>> > remove one if present as soon as asked by my provider?
>>
>> Choose an ISP such as Plusnet that will arrange for the line to be 
>> connected
>> at the same time as broadband. If there is a DACS and it cannot be 
>> removed
>> the order will be rejected by BT.
>
> You mean as in using PN as a telco i.e. 100% LLU'd ?


No. It is, AIUI, known as a simultaneous provide. In other words the ISP 
coordinates the line and broadband installation so that they become 
operational on the same day but it still remains a BT line for which rental 
is payable to BT. In the event there is a DACS that cannot be removed due to 
a shortage of line plant then BT will not accept the order. In theory the OP 
could order a line from BT conditional upon there being no DACS but he might 
have a problem doing this. The advantage of ordering direct from BT at the 
moment is that they have a special offer of installation for around £26 with 
the proviso that you keep the line for 18 months. Personally I would not use 
anyone but BT for the line rental because of the extra layer of bureaucracy 
if one needs to get a fault fixed. AFAIK nobody but BT offers 24/7/365 fault 
reporting and in any case it will be BT/Openreach engineers that have to fix 
the fault. The latter often means that the Telco renting the line has to pay 
for works and they will be reluctant to do so because the profit margin on 
line rental is quite small.

Peter Crosland

"Doughboy"  wrote in message 
news:hjg344djb4qu528qea6q3h0p3u7e1og5kn@4ax.com...
>I want to get my BT line reconnected so I can get ADSL broadband, so I
> phoned BT to ask whether there's a DACS on my line. All they said was
> that if there was it would be up to my broadband provider to arrange
> for it to be removed.
>
> I'm not happy about the possibility of paying to have the line
> reconnected and signing a contract with a broadband provider only to
> find my connection's rubbish due to the presence of a DACS and then
> perhaps find that my provider has trouble getting BT to remove it.
>
> Is there anything I can do to ensure my line won't have a DACS on it
> before I get it reconnected or am I worrying too much and would BT
> remove one if present as soon as asked by my provider?
>
> Doughboy


I always contend that I can tell if a given line is DACSd simply by 
listening to the dialtone.
The dialtone generated by the DACS sounds quite different to my ear than 
that
supplied direct from an exchange linecard.
It is more "coloured", audibly pixilated, to coin a phrase. The audio 
quality of speech
sound like it has had an extra dose of codec, which of course it has, but 
the DT
and NU tones are the real giveaway.

NTL lines sound very similar, no doubt for similar reasons

-- 
Graham

%Profound_observation%

On Sun, 01 Jun 2008 11:33:13 +0100, Graham. passed an empty day by
writing:

> "Doughboy"  wrote in message
> news:hjg344djb4qu528qea6q3h0p3u7e1og5kn@4ax.com...
>>I want to get my BT line reconnected so I can get ADSL broadband, so I
>> phoned BT to ask whether there's a DACS on my line. All they said was
>> that if there was it would be up to my broadband provider to arrange
>> for it to be removed.
>>
>> I'm not happy about the possibility of paying to have the line
>> reconnected and signing a contract with a broadband provider only to
>> find my connection's rubbish due to the presence of a DACS and then
>> perhaps find that my provider has trouble getting BT to remove it.
>>
>> Is there anything I can do to ensure my line won't have a DACS on it
>> before I get it reconnected or am I worrying too much and would BT
>> remove one if present as soon as asked by my provider?
>>
>> Doughboy
> 
> 
> I always contend that I can tell if a given line is DACSd simply by
> listening to the dialtone.
> The dialtone generated by the DACS sounds quite different to my ear than
> that
> supplied direct from an exchange linecard. It is more "coloured",
> audibly pixilated, to coin a phrase. The audio quality of speech
> sound like it has had an extra dose of codec, which of course it has,
> but the DT
> and NU tones are the real giveaway.
> 
> NTL lines sound very similar, no doubt for similar reasons

I used to know a guy who said he could tell the difference too. It was 
quite funny how often he got it wrong and he became the local CST 
laughing stock with the nickname 'ears'. He also used to say he could 
tell the difference between CD, Vinyl, Minidisc and MP3 with just as 
little success. Not that I am suggesting for a moment that you are unable 
to do what you say.

For me, the easy way to tell is clip a butt across it, pick up dialtone, 
break it, hang up and then listen for all the digital mush which is very 
apparent.

On 31 May, 22:32, Doughboy  wrote:
> Is there anything I can do to ensure my line won't have a DACS on it
> before I get it reconnected or am I worrying too much and would BT
> remove one if present as soon as asked by my provider?

When you order the new line ask BT to note that its for ADSL use and
also mention it to the engineer when they visit.

Apart from that, if a line is DACS for some reason - BT have a
standard process for removing them when they receive an ADSL order -
assuming a free copper pair can be found.

Regards
Sunil

Doughboy wrote:
> I want to get my BT line reconnected so I can get ADSL broadband,
> so I phoned BT to ask whether there's a DACS on my line. All they
> said was that if there was it would be up to my broadband provider
> to arrange for it to be removed.
>
> I'm not happy about the possibility of paying to have the line
> reconnected and signing a contract with a broadband provider only to
> find my connection's rubbish due to the presence of a DACS and then
> perhaps find that my provider has trouble getting BT to remove it.

I think you misunderstand the situation, if a DAC is on your line your DSL 
would not be rubbish, it simply will not exist.  BT/Openreach treat the 
de-DAC for DSL quite fast but you'll have to order the broadband to get it 
going.
>
> Is there anything I can do to ensure my line won't have a DACS on it
> before I get it reconnected or am I worrying too much and would BT
> remove one if present as soon as asked by my provider?

There is absolutely nothing you can do, no not even mentioning DSL on your 
line order (that input would just get lost).

It's very simple, no matter how you may put it, the only way would be to 
order your line & your broadband.  If there is a DAC on your line 
BT/Openreach are enpowered to spend up to £1000 to get your DSL working so 
the chances are very good you would get DSL service, it's just may be a 
little longer than what you would like to wait.

If you are that worried you should have checked to see whether the previous 
occupier had DSL service.

Peter Crosland wrote:
>>>> I want to get my BT line reconnected so I can get ADSL
>>>> broadband, so I phoned BT to ask whether there's a DACS on my
>>>> line. All they said was that if there was it would be up to my
>>>> broadband provider to arrange for it to be removed.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not happy about the possibility of paying to have the line
>>>> reconnected and signing a contract with a broadband provider
>>>> only to find my connection's rubbish due to the presence of a
>>>> DACS and then perhaps find that my provider has trouble getting
>>>> BT to remove it.
>
> Broadband will not work at all with a DACS fitted on the line.
>
>>>> Is there anything I can do to ensure my line won't have a DACS
>>>> on it before I get it reconnected or am I worrying too much and
>>>> would BT remove one if present as soon as asked by my provider?
>>>
>>> Choose an ISP such as Plusnet that will arrange for the line to be
>>> connected
>>> at the same time as broadband. If there is a DACS and it cannot be
>>> removed
>>> the order will be rejected by BT.
>>
>> You mean as in using PN as a telco i.e. 100% LLU'd ?
>
>
> No. It is, AIUI, known as a simultaneous provide. In other words
> the ISP coordinates the line and broadband installation so that
> they become operational on the same day but it still remains a BT
> line for which rental is payable to BT. In the event there is a
> DACS that cannot be removed due to a shortage of line plant then BT
> will not accept the order.

Nice in theory but the records of where lines have been DAC'd is anything 
but complete & so every line provide is a gamble when it comes to a DAC. 
Records don't even show how many pairs are actually working on some DP's as 
the records for pair diverts haven't been kept up to date


>In theory the OP could order a line from
> BT conditional upon there being no DACS but he might have a problem
> doing this.

re my previous posting the linage will either be lost or ignored.

The advantage of ordering direct from BT at the moment
> is that they have a special offer of installation for around £26
> with the proviso that you keep the line for 18 months.

But there doesn't appear to be any visits arranged so the first engineer on 
site is very often chasing a fault, which turns out to be a failed provision 
order

Personally I
> would not use anyone but BT for the line rental because of the
> extra layer of bureaucracy if one needs to get a fault fixed.

Now that is something which is working right, many times engineers are 
visiting in the afternoon of the same day when the fault was reported, 
believe it or not.

>AFAIK
> nobody but BT offers 24/7/365 fault reporting and in any case it
> will be BT/Openreach engineers that have to fix the fault. The
> latter often means that the Telco renting the line has to pay for
> works and they will be reluctant to do so because the profit margin
> on line rental is quite small.

To true & very often the CP will have an upper limit on what thay are 
willing to pay, hence certain types of faults have an upper time limit which 
the engineer on site is not supposed to go past.

Graham. wrote:
> "Doughboy"  wrote in message
> news:hjg344djb4qu528qea6q3h0p3u7e1og5kn@4ax.com...
>> I want to get my BT line reconnected so I can get ADSL broadband,
>> so I phoned BT to ask whether there's a DACS on my line. All they
>> said was that if there was it would be up to my broadband provider
>> to arrange for it to be removed.
>>
>> I'm not happy about the possibility of paying to have the line
>> reconnected and signing a contract with a broadband provider only
>> to find my connection's rubbish due to the presence of a DACS and
>> then perhaps find that my provider has trouble getting BT to
>> remove it. Is there anything I can do to ensure my line won't have a DACS 
>> on
>> it before I get it reconnected or am I worrying too much and would
>> BT remove one if present as soon as asked by my provider?
>>
>> Doughboy
>
>
> I always contend that I can tell if a given line is DACSd simply by
> listening to the dialtone.
> The dialtone generated by the DACS sounds quite different to my ear
> than that
> supplied direct from an exchange linecard.
> It is more "coloured", audibly pixilated, to coin a phrase. The
> audio quality of speech
> sound like it has had an extra dose of codec, which of course it
> has, but the DT
> and NU tones are the real giveaway.
>
> NTL lines sound very similar, no doubt for similar reasons

To true any sound (dial tone or voice) does sound more compressed, but you 
do need the ear for it ( quite possibly it could be something to do with one 
of your hobbies having to pick out speach from background QRM)

Klunk wrote:
> On Sun, 01 Jun 2008 11:33:13 +0100, Graham. passed an empty day by
> writing:
>
>> "Doughboy"  wrote in message
>> news:hjg344djb4qu528qea6q3h0p3u7e1og5kn@4ax.com...
>>> I want to get my BT line reconnected so I can get ADSL broadband,
>>> so I phoned BT to ask whether there's a DACS on my line. All they
>>> said was that if there was it would be up to my broadband
>>> provider to arrange for it to be removed.
>>>
>>> I'm not happy about the possibility of paying to have the line
>>> reconnected and signing a contract with a broadband provider only
>>> to find my connection's rubbish due to the presence of a DACS and
>>> then perhaps find that my provider has trouble getting BT to
>>> remove it.
>>>
>>> Is there anything I can do to ensure my line won't have a DACS on
>>> it before I get it reconnected or am I worrying too much and
>>> would BT remove one if present as soon as asked by my provider?
>>>
>>> Doughboy
>>
>>
>> I always contend that I can tell if a given line is DACSd simply by
>> listening to the dialtone.
>> The dialtone generated by the DACS sounds quite different to my
>> ear than that
>> supplied direct from an exchange linecard. It is more "coloured",
>> audibly pixilated, to coin a phrase. The audio quality of speech
>> sound like it has had an extra dose of codec, which of course it
>> has, but the DT
>> and NU tones are the real giveaway.
>>
>> NTL lines sound very similar, no doubt for similar reasons
>
> I used to know a guy who said he could tell the difference too. It
> was quite funny how often he got it wrong and he became the local
> CST laughing stock with the nickname 'ears'. He also used to say he
> could tell the difference between CD, Vinyl, Minidisc and MP3 with
> just as little success. Not that I am suggesting for a moment that
> you are unable to do what you say.
>
> For me, the easy way to tell is clip a butt across it, pick up
> dialtone, break it, hang up and then listen for all the digital
> mush which is very apparent.

It is even easier with the new type test tele's as they can't pull dial tone 
with out forcing it, if you monitor for digital mush then you would get 
confused as it would be present on all DSL lines.

Sunil Sood wrote:
> On 31 May, 22:32, Doughboy  wrote:
>> Is there anything I can do to ensure my line won't have a DACS on
>> it before I get it reconnected or am I worrying too much and would
>> BT remove one if present as soon as asked by my provider?
>
> When you order the new line ask BT to note that its for ADSL use and
> also mention it to the engineer when they visit.

As said before the note would just be ignored/lost in the system and as for 
mentioning it to the engineer (who many times don't call on wires exists 
nowadays) won't do anything as they will only be enpowered to do what it 
stipulates on the order they have received & absolutely nothing else.
>
> Apart from that, if a line is DACS for some reason - BT have a
> standard process for removing them when they receive an ADSL order -
> assuming a free copper pair can be found.

That is the only way (standard way I should say, you could always fire of a 
complaint to the CEO if all else fails, it can work occaisionally)

"kraftee" <kraftee@b&e-cottee.me.uk> wrote in message 
news:uIidnTRFV7-ZKN_VnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@bt.com...
> Graham. wrote:
>> "Doughboy"  wrote in message
>> news:hjg344djb4qu528qea6q3h0p3u7e1og5kn@4ax.com...
>>> I want to get my BT line reconnected so I can get ADSL broadband,
>>> so I phoned BT to ask whether there's a DACS on my line. All they
>>> said was that if there was it would be up to my broadband provider
>>> to arrange for it to be removed.
>>>
>>> I'm not happy about the possibility of paying to have the line
>>> reconnected and signing a contract with a broadband provider only
>>> to find my connection's rubbish due to the presence of a DACS and
>>> then perhaps find that my provider has trouble getting BT to
>>> remove it. Is there anything I can do to ensure my line won't have a 
>>> DACS on
>>> it before I get it reconnected or am I worrying too much and would
>>> BT remove one if present as soon as asked by my provider?
>>>
>>> Doughboy
>>
>>
>> I always contend that I can tell if a given line is DACSd simply by
>> listening to the dialtone.
>> The dialtone generated by the DACS sounds quite different to my ear
>> than that
>> supplied direct from an exchange linecard.
>> It is more "coloured", audibly pixilated, to coin a phrase. The
>> audio quality of speech
>> sound like it has had an extra dose of codec, which of course it
>> has, but the DT
>> and NU tones are the real giveaway.
>>
>> NTL lines sound very similar, no doubt for similar reasons
>
> To true any sound (dial tone or voice) does sound more compressed, but you 
> do need the ear for it ( quite possibly it could be something to do with 
> one of your hobbies having to pick out speach from background QRM)


Perhaps if my parants had bought me a violin instead
of a crystal set when I was 5...

-- 
Graham

%Profound_observation%

On Sun, 01 Jun 2008 15:42:16 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
writing:

> Klunk wrote:
>> On Sun, 01 Jun 2008 11:33:13 +0100, Graham. passed an empty day by
>> writing:
>>
>>> "Doughboy"  wrote in message
>>> news:hjg344djb4qu528qea6q3h0p3u7e1og5kn@4ax.com...
>>>> I want to get my BT line reconnected so I can get ADSL broadband, so
>>>> I phoned BT to ask whether there's a DACS on my line. All they said
>>>> was that if there was it would be up to my broadband provider to
>>>> arrange for it to be removed.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not happy about the possibility of paying to have the line
>>>> reconnected and signing a contract with a broadband provider only to
>>>> find my connection's rubbish due to the presence of a DACS and then
>>>> perhaps find that my provider has trouble getting BT to remove it.
>>>>
>>>> Is there anything I can do to ensure my line won't have a DACS on it
>>>> before I get it reconnected or am I worrying too much and would BT
>>>> remove one if present as soon as asked by my provider?
>>>>
>>>> Doughboy
>>>
>>>
>>> I always contend that I can tell if a given line is DACSd simply by
>>> listening to the dialtone.
>>> The dialtone generated by the DACS sounds quite different to my ear
>>> than that
>>> supplied direct from an exchange linecard. It is more "coloured",
>>> audibly pixilated, to coin a phrase. The audio quality of speech sound
>>> like it has had an extra dose of codec, which of course it has, but
>>> the DT
>>> and NU tones are the real giveaway.
>>>
>>> NTL lines sound very similar, no doubt for similar reasons
>>
>> I used to know a guy who said he could tell the difference too. It was
>> quite funny how often he got it wrong and he became the local CST
>> laughing stock with the nickname 'ears'. He also used to say he could
>> tell the difference between CD, Vinyl, Minidisc and MP3 with just as
>> little success. Not that I am suggesting for a moment that you are
>> unable to do what you say.
>>
>> For me, the easy way to tell is clip a butt across it, pick up
>> dialtone, break it, hang up and then listen for all the digital mush
>> which is very apparent.
> 
> It is even easier with the new type test tele's as they can't pull dial
> tone with out forcing it, if you monitor for digital mush then you would
> get confused as it would be present on all DSL lines.

If you stick just one leg the older blue tele 300's would not lock out. 
Failing that hold the centre button for 5 seconds and listen to the 
lovely der der der der der der dooo doooo . . . .

Peter Crosland wrote:
> Personally I would not use 
> anyone but BT for the line rental because of the extra layer of bureaucracy 
> if one needs to get a fault fixed.

There is no such "extra" layer of bureaucracy if you take a PSTN line 
from someone other than BT Retail.

Regards,

> Peter Crosland wrote:
>> Personally I would not use anyone but BT for the line rental because of 
>> the extra layer of bureaucracy if one needs to get a fault fixed.
>
> There is no such "extra" layer of bureaucracy if you take a PSTN line from 
> someone other than BT Retail.


How do you work that out? If the line is not a BT line BT will not accept 
fault reports direct and you have to go though the supplier many of, if not 
all, fail to provide a 24 service.

Peter Crosland

On Sun, 1 Jun 2008 15:27:44 +0100, "kraftee"
<kraftee@b&e-cottee.me.uk> wrote:

>Doughboy wrote:
>> I want to get my BT line reconnected so I can get ADSL broadband,
>> so I phoned BT to ask whether there's a DACS on my line. All they
>> said was that if there was it would be up to my broadband provider
>> to arrange for it to be removed.
>>
>> I'm not happy about the possibility of paying to have the line
>> reconnected and signing a contract with a broadband provider only to
>> find my connection's rubbish due to the presence of a DACS and then
>> perhaps find that my provider has trouble getting BT to remove it.
>
>I think you misunderstand the situation, if a DAC is on your line your DSL 
>would not be rubbish, it simply will not exist.  BT/Openreach treat the 
>de-DAC for DSL quite fast but you'll have to order the broadband to get it 
>going.

I guess that's better in a way, because at least I won't end up paying
for broadband and receiving rubbish speeds.

>> Is there anything I can do to ensure my line won't have a DACS on it
>> before I get it reconnected or am I worrying too much and would BT
>> remove one if present as soon as asked by my provider?
>
>There is absolutely nothing you can do, no not even mentioning DSL on your 
>line order (that input would just get lost).
>
>It's very simple, no matter how you may put it, the only way would be to 
>order your line & your broadband.  If there is a DAC on your line 
>BT/Openreach are enpowered to spend up to £1000 to get your DSL working so 
>the chances are very good you would get DSL service, it's just may be a 
>little longer than what you would like to wait.

It's unfortunate I have to leave it to chance, because if they can't
provide DSL, I'll be stuck with a BT phoneline which will be costing
me £8/month more than Virgin are currently charging me for line
rental.

>If you are that worried you should have checked to see whether the previous 
>occupier had DSL service.

Kinda hard, considering my flat was unoccupied when I moved in 8 years
ago. Besides, that wouldn't have stopped BT reassigning the line to a
neighbour in the 8 years it's been disconnected, leaving no spare
pairs to provide me with a DACS-free line now.

Doughboy

On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 07:36:45 +0100, Peter Crosland passed an empty day by
writing:

>> Peter Crosland wrote:
>>> Personally I would not use anyone but BT for the line rental because
>>> of the extra layer of bureaucracy if one needs to get a fault fixed.
>>
>> There is no such "extra" layer of bureaucracy if you take a PSTN line
>> from someone other than BT Retail.
> 
> 
> How do you work that out? If the line is not a BT line BT will not
> accept fault reports direct and you have to go though the supplier many
> of, if not all, fail to provide a 24 service.
> 
> Peter Crosland

BT don't have any control or priority of Openreach line plant - that is 
why. 

Openreach is quite separate and each and every CP has equivalent 
treatment and access to the day to day appointment books of Openreach. 
The issue of a customer service desk being of different quality to that 
of BT is a different issue, but there is no extra layer of bureaucracy at 
all.

Bureaucracy is something BT have been specialists at since the came into 
being. They don't need any help from any other CP's in this department.

IMHO and from experience, you are more likely to get better service from 
anyone other than BT. Openreach bending over backwards to show just how 
'open' and 'equivalent' they are.

If one supplier has a 24 hour Indian call centre that can tell you 'it is 
your equipment' at 2am, and the other is open 8-8 but speaks English and 
raises the fault - the winner is clear by a mile. Such differences in 
customer service are one of the reasons competition is healthy.

On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 06:48:06 +0000, Doughboy passed an empty day by
writing:

> It's unfortunate I have to leave it to chance, because if they can't
> provide DSL, I'll be stuck with a BT phoneline which will be costing me
> £8/month more than Virgin are currently charging me for line rental.

I've probably missed a bit of this thread somewhere. What was the reason 
for leaving Virgin and taking a chance on BT?

"Doughboy"  wrote in message 
news:s3u344pisi5onpvgkem2l2duccq7q70tp4@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 31 May 2008 22:41:06 +0100, Eeyore
>  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>Doughboy wrote:
>>
>>> I want to get my BT line reconnected so I can get ADSL broadband, so I
>>> phoned BT to ask whether there's a DACS on my line. All they said was
>>> that if there was it would be up to my broadband provider to arrange
>>> for it to be removed.
>>>
>>> I'm not happy about the possibility of paying to have the line
>>> reconnected and signing a contract with a broadband provider only to
>>> find my connection's rubbish due to the presence of a DACS and then
>>> perhaps find that my provider has trouble getting BT to remove it.
>>>
>>> Is there anything I can do to ensure my line won't have a DACS on it
>>> before I get it reconnected or am I worrying too much and would BT
>>> remove one if present as soon as asked by my provider?
>>
>>How much are they planning to charge you to reconnect the line ?
>>
>>It might make as much sense to request a new line (sans DACS).
>>
>>Graham
>
> I'm planning on taking the offer currently available for installation
> for £30.
>
> I haven't had a BT service here for about 8 years so I don't know if
> there's still a line that can be reconnected but when I previously
> enquired I was told that I would have to pay the full installation
> charge (I didn't discuss the offer at that time as I just wanted to
> find out the situation). Are you saying that if I request a new line
> rather than a reconnect, I can stipulate it must be without DACS?

No, you cannot make any such stipulation.  If a BT engineer has to attend 
the premises to install the new line, you may be able to find out from him 
whether a DACS will be used.  You may also be able to say that you don't 
want a DACS, and ask the engineer to speak to his supervisor; in which case 
the job may be marked as incomplete and returned to planning.

If BT have to use a DACS to provide a voice service, then when you apply to 
the ISP of your choice for ADSL the ISP will arrange for the DACS to be 
removed.  If BT report that there is "insufficient line plant" then the 
removal of the DACS may take some time or indeed it may be impossible.  I 
have never heard of BT installing a line with any guarantee that it can be 
used for ADSL.

-- 
Graham J

On 02 Jun 2008 07:23:04 GMT, Klunk  wrote:

>On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 06:48:06 +0000, Doughboy passed an empty day by
>writing:
>
>> It's unfortunate I have to leave it to chance, because if they can't
>> provide DSL, I'll be stuck with a BT phoneline which will be costing me
>> £8/month more than Virgin are currently charging me for line rental.
>
>I've probably missed a bit of this thread somewhere. What was the reason 
>for leaving Virgin and taking a chance on BT?

I didn't specify so you haven't missed anything but I want to leave
Virgin Broadband because I'm unhappy with their Traffic Management,
which drops my connection from 4Mb to 1Mb for 5 hours if I download
over 700Mb, their plans to introduce Phorm, and the fact that they
treat their customers with contempt and introduce these measures
without informing them.

The fact that they're charging me £25/month for this when I can get a
non-traffic managed 8Mb ADSL connection for £15/month is another
reason.

Doughboy

On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:07:46 +0100, "Graham J"
 wrote:

>
>"Doughboy"  wrote in message 
>news:s3u344pisi5onpvgkem2l2duccq7q70tp4@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 31 May 2008 22:41:06 +0100, Eeyore
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Doughboy wrote:
>>>
>>>> I want to get my BT line reconnected so I can get ADSL broadband, so I
>>>> phoned BT to ask whether there's a DACS on my line. All they said was
>>>> that if there was it would be up to my broadband provider to arrange
>>>> for it to be removed.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not happy about the possibility of paying to have the line
>>>> reconnected and signing a contract with a broadband provider only to
>>>> find my connection's rubbish due to the presence of a DACS and then
>>>> perhaps find that my provider has trouble getting BT to remove it.
>>>>
>>>> Is there anything I can do to ensure my line won't have a DACS on it
>>>> before I get it reconnected or am I worrying too much and would BT
>>>> remove one if present as soon as asked by my provider?
>>>
>>>How much are they planning to charge you to reconnect the line ?
>>>
>>>It might make as much sense to request a new line (sans DACS).
>>>
>>>Graham
>>
>> I'm planning on taking the offer currently available for installation
>> for £30.
>>
>> I haven't had a BT service here for about 8 years so I don't know if
>> there's still a line that can be reconnected but when I previously
>> enquired I was told that I would have to pay the full installation
>> charge (I didn't discuss the offer at that time as I just wanted to
>> find out the situation). Are you saying that if I request a new line
>> rather than a reconnect, I can stipulate it must be without DACS?
>
>No, you cannot make any such stipulation.  If a BT engineer has to attend 
>the premises to install the new line, you may be able to find out from him 
>whether a DACS will be used.  You may also be able to say that you don't 
>want a DACS, and ask the engineer to speak to his supervisor; in which case 
>the job may be marked as incomplete and returned to planning.

I'd be wary of trying this in case they decide that I've effectively
cancelled the order and then charge me whatever they decide for the
call-out.

>If BT have to use a DACS to provide a voice service, then when you apply to 
>the ISP of your choice for ADSL the ISP will arrange for the DACS to be 
>removed.  If BT report that there is "insufficient line plant" then the 
>removal of the DACS may take some time or indeed it may be impossible.  I 
>have never heard of BT installing a line with any guarantee that it can be 
>used for ADSL.

So why can't BT tell me whether there's sufficient line plant before I
place the order?

Doughboy

"Doughboy"  wrote in message 
news:bls744ds0bm3nme9kqo6b6khnep9mrmqs8@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:07:46 +0100, "Graham J"
>  wrote:
>
>>
>>"Doughboy"  wrote in message
>>news:s3u344pisi5onpvgkem2l2duccq7q70tp4@4ax.com...
>>> On Sat, 31 May 2008 22:41:06 +0100, Eeyore
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Doughboy wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I want to get my BT line reconnected so I can get ADSL broadband, so I
>>>>> phoned BT to ask whether there's a DACS on my line. All they said was
>>>>> that if there was it would be up to my broadband provider to arrange
>>>>> for it to be removed.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not happy about the possibility of paying to have the line
>>>>> reconnected and signing a contract with a broadband provider only to
>>>>> find my connection's rubbish due to the presence of a DACS and then
>>>>> perhaps find that my provider has trouble getting BT to remove it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there anything I can do to ensure my line won't have a DACS on it
>>>>> before I get it reconnected or am I worrying too much and would BT
>>>>> remove one if present as soon as asked by my provider?
>>>>
>>>>How much are they planning to charge you to reconnect the line ?
>>>>
>>>>It might make as much sense to request a new line (sans DACS).
>>>>
>>>>Graham
>>>
>>> I'm planning on taking the offer currently available for installation
>>> for £30.
>>>
>>> I haven't had a BT service here for about 8 years so I don't know if
>>> there's still a line that can be reconnected but when I previously
>>> enquired I was told that I would have to pay the full installation
>>> charge (I didn't discuss the offer at that time as I just wanted to
>>> find out the situation). Are you saying that if I request a new line
>>> rather than a reconnect, I can stipulate it must be without DACS?
>>
>>No, you cannot make any such stipulation.  If a BT engineer has to attend
>>the premises to install the new line, you may be able to find out from him
>>whether a DACS will be used.  You may also be able to say that you don't
>>want a DACS, and ask the engineer to speak to his supervisor; in which 
>>case
>>the job may be marked as incomplete and returned to planning.
>
> I'd be wary of trying this in case they decide that I've effectively
> cancelled the order and then charge me whatever they decide for the
> call-out.


They shouldn't charge you - and if they did, you'd have a good case for 
arguing with them if you had stated at the outset you wanted the line for a 
broadband connection.
Bear in mind that it's physically impossible to provide an ADSL connection 
on a DACSed line, so they wouldn't have a case against you.


>
>>If BT have to use a DACS to provide a voice service, then when you apply 
>>to
>>the ISP of your choice for ADSL the ISP will arrange for the DACS to be
>>removed.  If BT report that there is "insufficient line plant" then the
>>removal of the DACS may take some time or indeed it may be impossible.  I
>>have never heard of BT installing a line with any guarantee that it can be
>>used for ADSL.
>
> So why can't BT tell me whether there's sufficient line plant before I
> place the order?

In an ideal world, they should know. Details should be on their CSS system 
when you order.
However, this pre-supposes that Openreach engineers and contractors have fed 
back into the system all changes of routing that they have done in the area 
over the past x years in order to clear faults, etc. As Kraftee and others 
have already admitted, this is less than perfect, so whilst the call-centre 
operator who takes your order thinks that a spare pair exists when he/she 
checks CSS while taking your order, it could be that when the Openreach man 
visits the site to put the line in, he may find that one of his colleagues 
has "pinched" the pair to fix a fault, and hasn't updated the records. Or he 
might find a DACS on the line, both of which mean that he can't complete and 
will have to feed the job back into the system for extra plant to be 
provided. This could take weeks.

You'll never get anywhere worrying about this - stop this thread and put in 
your order to whoever. Chances are, it'll be OK anyway.

George

On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 13:12:19 +0000, Doughboy passed an empty day by
writing:

> On 02 Jun 2008 07:23:04 GMT, Klunk  wrote:
> 
>>On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 06:48:06 +0000, Doughboy passed an empty day by
>>writing:
>>
>>> It's unfortunate I have to leave it to chance, because if they can't
>>> provide DSL, I'll be stuck with a BT phoneline which will be costing
>>> me £8/month more than Virgin are currently charging me for line
>>> rental.
>>
>>I've probably missed a bit of this thread somewhere. What was the reason
>>for leaving Virgin and taking a chance on BT?
> 
> I didn't specify so you haven't missed anything but I want to leave
> Virgin Broadband because I'm unhappy with their Traffic Management,
> which drops my connection from 4Mb to 1Mb for 5 hours if I download over
> 700Mb, their plans to introduce Phorm, and the fact that they treat
> their customers with contempt and introduce these measures without
> informing them.
> 
> The fact that they're charging me £25/month for this when I can get a
> non-traffic managed 8Mb ADSL connection for £15/month is another reason.
> 
> Doughboy

I see, so you feel that you are going to get a better speed and 
throughput with a BT line. Ummm.

As someone has already pointed out in a post here - these people may be 
just who you need with what you need: http://aaisp.net.uk/aa/aaisp/
pstn.html

If you go with em' let us all know how you got on.

Klunk wrote:
> On Sun, 01 Jun 2008 15:42:16 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
> writing:
>
>> Klunk wrote:
>>> On Sun, 01 Jun 2008 11:33:13 +0100, Graham. passed an empty day by
>>> writing:
>>>
>>>> "Doughboy"  wrote in message
>>>> news:hjg344djb4qu528qea6q3h0p3u7e1og5kn@4ax.com...
>>>>> I want to get my BT line reconnected so I can get ADSL
>>>>> broadband, so I phoned BT to ask whether there's a DACS on my
>>>>> line. All they said was that if there was it would be up to my
>>>>> broadband provider to arrange for it to be removed.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not happy about the possibility of paying to have the line
>>>>> reconnected and signing a contract with a broadband provider
>>>>> only to find my connection's rubbish due to the presence of a
>>>>> DACS and then perhaps find that my provider has trouble getting
>>>>> BT to remove it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there anything I can do to ensure my line won't have a DACS
>>>>> on it before I get it reconnected or am I worrying too much and
>>>>> would BT remove one if present as soon as asked by my provider?
>>>>>
>>>>> Doughboy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I always contend that I can tell if a given line is DACSd simply
>>>> by listening to the dialtone.
>>>> The dialtone generated by the DACS sounds quite different to my
>>>> ear than that
>>>> supplied direct from an exchange linecard. It is more "coloured",
>>>> audibly pixilated, to coin a phrase. The audio quality of speech
>>>> sound like it has had an extra dose of codec, which of course it
>>>> has, but the DT
>>>> and NU tones are the real giveaway.
>>>>
>>>> NTL lines sound very similar, no doubt for similar reasons
>>>
>>> I used to know a guy who said he could tell the difference too.
>>> It was quite funny how often he got it wrong and he became the
>>> local CST laughing stock with the nickname 'ears'. He also used
>>> to say he could tell the difference between CD, Vinyl, Minidisc
>>> and MP3 with just as little success. Not that I am suggesting for
>>> a moment that you are unable to do what you say.
>>>
>>> For me, the easy way to tell is clip a butt across it, pick up
>>> dialtone, break it, hang up and then listen for all the digital
>>> mush which is very apparent.
>>
>> It is even easier with the new type test tele's as they can't pull
>> dial tone with out forcing it, if you monitor for digital mush
>> then you would get confused as it would be present on all DSL
>> lines.
>
> If you stick just one leg the older blue tele 300's would not lock
> out. Failing that hold the centre button for 5 seconds and listen
> to the lovely der der der der der der dooo doooo . . . .

Which is exactly what I said.....

Peter Crosland wrote:
>> Peter Crosland wrote:
>>> Personally I would not use anyone but BT for the line rental because of 
>>> the extra layer of bureaucracy if one needs to get a fault fixed.
>> There is no such "extra" layer of bureaucracy if you take a PSTN line from 
>> someone other than BT Retail.
> 
> 
> How do you work that out? If the line is not a BT line BT will not accept 
> fault reports direct and you have to go though the supplier many of, if not 
> all, fail to provide a 24 service.

As Klunk points out, which you may get a different level/quality of 
service from a provider other than BT Retail, there are no additional 
layers involved - other operators have the same level of access to the 
systems as BT Retail do.

Regards,

>>>> Personally I would not use anyone but BT for the line rental because of 
>>>> the extra layer of bureaucracy if one needs to get a fault fixed.
>>> There is no such "extra" layer of bureaucracy if you take a PSTN line 
>>> from someone other than BT Retail.
>>
>>
>> How do you work that out? If the line is not a BT line BT will not accept 
>> fault reports direct and you have to go though the supplier many of, if 
>> not all, fail to provide a 24 service.
>
> As Klunk points out, which you may get a different level/quality of 
> service from a provider other than BT Retail, there are no additional 
> layers involved - other operators have the same level of access to the 
> systems as BT Retail do.


How exactly is having to report a fault to one organisation who then pass it 
on to BT not another layer of bureaucracy? This, along with the fact that 
most of these organisations don't offer a 24/7/365 fault reporting service, 
means that a fault report is delayed in reaching BT. A fault on a BT line 
can be reported 24/7/365 and is immediately logged on the BT system. Ergo it 
is much easier and quicker.

Peter Crosland

Peter Crosland wrote:
>>>>> Personally I would not use anyone but BT for the line rental because of 
>>>>> the extra layer of bureaucracy if one needs to get a fault fixed.
>>>> There is no such "extra" layer of bureaucracy if you take a PSTN line 
>>>> from someone other than BT Retail.
>>>
>>> How do you work that out? If the line is not a BT line BT will not accept 
>>> fault reports direct and you have to go though the supplier many of, if 
>>> not all, fail to provide a 24 service.
>> As Klunk points out, which you may get a different level/quality of 
>> service from a provider other than BT Retail, there are no additional 
>> layers involved - other operators have the same level of access to the 
>> systems as BT Retail do.
> 
> How exactly is having to report a fault to one organisation who then pass it 
> on to BT not another layer of bureaucracy?

BT Retail, BTwholesale and Openreach are all different 
companies/organisations. They are required to interact with each other 
using exactly the same interfaces/procedures as other operators, 
therefore as a consumer, BT Retail have no better/quicker access to 
BTwholesale or Openreach than anyone else.

> This, along with the fact that 
> most of these organisations don't offer a 24/7/365 fault reporting service, 

BT Retail may have better availability than some companies, or perhaps 
not. The may also have better or more tested procedures for dealing with 
customers, or perhaps not.

> means that a fault report is delayed in reaching BT.

Which part of BT?

 > A fault on a BT line
> can be reported 24/7/365 and is immediately logged on the BT system. Ergo it 
> is much easier and quicker.

You must have been paying attention to the industry for the last couple 
of years, because it does not work you think it works.

Regards,

>>>>>> Personally I would not use anyone but BT for the line rental because 
>>>>>> of the extra layer of bureaucracy if one needs to get a fault fixed.
>>>>> There is no such "extra" layer of bureaucracy if you take a PSTN line 
>>>>> from someone other than BT Retail.
>>>>
>>>> How do you work that out? If the line is not a BT line BT will not 
>>>> accept fault reports direct and you have to go though the supplier many 
>>>> of, if not all, fail to provide a 24 service.
>>> As Klunk points out, which you may get a different level/quality of 
>>> service from a provider other than BT Retail, there are no additional 
>>> layers involved - other operators have the same level of access to the 
>>> systems as BT Retail do.
>>
>> How exactly is having to report a fault to one organisation who then pass 
>> it on to BT not another layer of bureaucracy?
>
> BT Retail, BTwholesale and Openreach are all different 
> companies/organisations. They are required to interact with each other 
> using exactly the same interfaces/procedures as other operators, therefore 
> as a consumer, BT Retail have no better/quicker access to BTwholesale or 
> Openreach than anyone else.
>
>> This, along with the fact that most of these organisations don't offer a 
>> 24/7/365 fault reporting service,
>
> BT Retail may have better availability than some companies, or perhaps 
> not. The may also have better or more tested procedures for dealing with 
> customers, or perhaps not.
>
>> means that a fault report is delayed in reaching BT.
>
> Which part of BT?
>
> > A fault on a BT line
>> can be reported 24/7/365 and is immediately logged on the BT system. Ergo 
>> it is much easier and quicker.
>
> You must have been paying attention to the industry for the last couple of 
> years, because it does not work you think it works.


On the contrary you seem to have missed the point! If you have an unbundled 
BT line and try and report a fault using BT's automated fault reporting 
system it will simply play you a recorded message stating that it is not a 
BT line and you have to report it to the company that it has been unbundled 
to. Is that clear?


Peter Crosland

Paul Cupis wrote:
> Peter Crosland wrote:
>>>>>> Personally I would not use anyone but BT for the line rental
>>>>>> because of the extra layer of bureaucracy if one needs to get
>>>>>> a fault fixed.
>>>>> There is no such "extra" layer of bureaucracy if you take a
>>>>> PSTN line from someone other than BT Retail.
>>>>
>>>> How do you work that out? If the line is not a BT line BT will
>>>> not accept fault reports direct and you have to go though the
>>>> supplier many of, if not all, fail to provide a 24 service.
>>> As Klunk points out, which you may get a different level/quality
>>> of service from a provider other than BT Retail, there are no
>>> additional layers involved - other operators have the same level
>>> of access to the systems as BT Retail do.
>>
>> How exactly is having to report a fault to one organisation who
>> then pass it on to BT not another layer of bureaucracy?
>
> BT Retail, BTwholesale and Openreach are all different
> companies/organisations. They are required to interact with each
> other using exactly the same interfaces/procedures as other
> operators, therefore as a consumer, BT Retail have no
> better/quicker access to BTwholesale or Openreach than anyone else.


What you are failing to adress is the fact that BT Retail/Wholesale do 
provide a 24/7 support mechanism which a lot of the other CPs do not.  Also 
for some reason, depsite Openreach raising charges against all CPs, BT 
Retail/Wholesale/Broadband Assurance etc don't appear to be put of by this 
unlike some of the rest.
>
>> This, along with the fact that
>> most of these organisations don't offer a 24/7/365 fault reporting
>> service,
>
> BT Retail may have better availability than some companies, or
> perhaps not. The may also have better or more tested procedures for
> dealing with customers, or perhaps not.
>

Now you appear to not know which way to bend, either BT have a better 
reporting system or not, you can't have both but having suffered the 
infamous BT Internet Support line I do know at least one part of the BT 
gestalt who appear sadly lacking when compared to other CPs.

Peter Crosland wrote:
> On the contrary you seem to have missed the point! If you have an unbundled 
> BT line and try and report a fault using BT's automated fault reporting 
> system it will simply play you a recorded message stating that it is not a 
> BT line and you have to report it to the company that it has been unbundled 
> to. Is that clear?

Yes, if you do not pay BT Retail for the line you cannot use their 
automated reporting tools.

You have to contact your supplier to raise faults for the service they 
provide you. Some suppliers such as BT Retail may have automated tools 
that other may or may not have.

There is no extra layer of bureaucracy, to get back to the point I was 
making when I joined this thread.

Regards,

>> On the contrary you seem to have missed the point! If you have an 
>> unbundled BT line and try and report a fault using BT's automated fault 
>> reporting system it will simply play you a recorded message stating that 
>> it is not a BT line and you have to report it to the company that it has 
>> been unbundled to. Is that clear?
>
> Yes, if you do not pay BT Retail for the line you cannot use their 
> automated reporting tools.
>
> You have to contact your supplier to raise faults for the service they 
> provide you. Some suppliers such as BT Retail may have automated tools 
> that other may or may not have.
>
> There is no extra layer of bureaucracy, to get back to the point I was 
> making when I joined this thread.


You really don't get it do you? If the line is a BT one faults can be 
reported 24/7/365 via their automated fault reporting system.

If it is not a BT line, faults have to be reported to the line provider, 
none of which, AFAIK has a 24/7/365 automated reporting system. In many case 
this means that the customer has to talk to the supplier who then pass the 
fault details to BT/Openreach. That is, IMHO, another layer of bureaucracy 
to deal with. Worse still the fault can only be reported during their office 
hours. Given that a significant number of faults can be dealt with 
automatically and remotely the non BT system can add significantly to the 
time the fault takes to be cleared.

Peter Crosland

On 02 Jun 2008 16:43:11 GMT, Klunk  wrote:

>On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 13:12:19 +0000, Doughboy passed an empty day by
>writing:
>
>> On 02 Jun 2008 07:23:04 GMT, Klunk  wrote:
>> 
>>>On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 06:48:06 +0000, Doughboy passed an empty day by
>>>writing:
>>>
>>>> It's unfortunate I have to leave it to chance, because if they can't
>>>> provide DSL, I'll be stuck with a BT phoneline which will be costing
>>>> me £8/month more than Virgin are currently charging me for line
>>>> rental.
>>>
>>>I've probably missed a bit of this thread somewhere. What was the reason
>>>for leaving Virgin and taking a chance on BT?
>> 
>> I didn't specify so you haven't missed anything but I want to leave
>> Virgin Broadband because I'm unhappy with their Traffic Management,
>> which drops my connection from 4Mb to 1Mb for 5 hours if I download over
>> 700Mb, their plans to introduce Phorm, and the fact that they treat
>> their customers with contempt and introduce these measures without
>> informing them.
>> 
>> The fact that they're charging me £25/month for this when I can get a
>> non-traffic managed 8Mb ADSL connection for £15/month is another reason.
>> 
>> Doughboy
>
>I see, so you feel that you are going to get a better speed and 
>throughput with a BT line. Ummm.

Hopefully, as I'm only 300-odd metres from my exchange.

>As someone has already pointed out in a post here - these people may be 
>just who you need with what you need: http://aaisp.net.uk/aa/aaisp/
>pstn.html
>
>If you go with em' let us all know how you got on.

Unfortunately, I can't afford a £150 setup fee so they're not an
option for me.

Doughboy

On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 15:37:48 +0100, "George Weston"
 wrote:

>
>"Doughboy"  wrote in message 
>news:bls744ds0bm3nme9kqo6b6khnep9mrmqs8@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:07:46 +0100, "Graham J"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Doughboy"  wrote in message
>>>news:s3u344pisi5onpvgkem2l2duccq7q70tp4@4ax.com...
>>>> On Sat, 31 May 2008 22:41:06 +0100, Eeyore
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Doughboy wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I want to get my BT line reconnected so I can get ADSL broadband, so I
>>>>>> phoned BT to ask whether there's a DACS on my line. All they said was
>>>>>> that if there was it would be up to my broadband provider to arrange
>>>>>> for it to be removed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not happy about the possibility of paying to have the line
>>>>>> reconnected and signing a contract with a broadband provider only to
>>>>>> find my connection's rubbish due to the presence of a DACS and then
>>>>>> perhaps find that my provider has trouble getting BT to remove it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there anything I can do to ensure my line won't have a DACS on it
>>>>>> before I get it reconnected or am I worrying too much and would BT
>>>>>> remove one if present as soon as asked by my provider?
>>>>>
>>>>>How much are they planning to charge you to reconnect the line ?
>>>>>
>>>>>It might make as much sense to request a new line (sans DACS).
>>>>>
>>>>>Graham
>>>>
>>>> I'm planning on taking the offer currently available for installation
>>>> for £30.
>>>>
>>>> I haven't had a BT service here for about 8 years so I don't know if
>>>> there's still a line that can be reconnected but when I previously
>>>> enquired I was told that I would have to pay the full installation
>>>> charge (I didn't discuss the offer at that time as I just wanted to
>>>> find out the situation). Are you saying that if I request a new line
>>>> rather than a reconnect, I can stipulate it must be without DACS?
>>>
>>>No, you cannot make any such stipulation.  If a BT engineer has to attend
>>>the premises to install the new line, you may be able to find out from him
>>>whether a DACS will be used.  You may also be able to say that you don't
>>>want a DACS, and ask the engineer to speak to his supervisor; in which 
>>>case
>>>the job may be marked as incomplete and returned to planning.
>>
>> I'd be wary of trying this in case they decide that I've effectively
>> cancelled the order and then charge me whatever they decide for the
>> call-out.
>
>
>They shouldn't charge you - and if they did, you'd have a good case for 
>arguing with them if you had stated at the outset you wanted the line for a 
>broadband connection.
>Bear in mind that it's physically impossible to provide an ADSL connection 
>on a DACSed line, so they wouldn't have a case against you.

But as people have already said, BT don't allow you to stipulate the
line has to be suitable for ADSL and having told me this at the time
of placing the order, if I proceed I would be accepting that
condition.

I have a bad memory of BT trying to charge me much more than they'd
quoted me for an install at my last property and it taking months to
get them to back down and stop threatening me.

>>>If BT have to use a DACS to provide a voice service, then when you apply 
>>>to
>>>the ISP of your choice for ADSL the ISP will arrange for the DACS to be
>>>removed.  If BT report that there is "insufficient line plant" then the
>>>removal of the DACS may take some time or indeed it may be impossible.  I
>>>have never heard of BT installing a line with any guarantee that it can be
>>>used for ADSL.
>>
>> So why can't BT tell me whether there's sufficient line plant before I
>> place the order?
>
>In an ideal world, they should know. Details should be on their CSS system 
>when you order.
>However, this pre-supposes that Openreach engineers and contractors have fed 
>back into the system all changes of routing that they have done in the area 
>over the past x years in order to clear faults, etc. As Kraftee and others 
>have already admitted, this is less than perfect, so whilst the call-centre 
>operator who takes your order thinks that a spare pair exists when he/she 
>checks CSS while taking your order, it could be that when the Openreach man 
>visits the site to put the line in, he may find that one of his colleagues 
>has "pinched" the pair to fix a fault, and hasn't updated the records. Or he 
>might find a DACS on the line, both of which mean that he can't complete and 
>will have to feed the job back into the system for extra plant to be 
>provided. This could take weeks.
>
>You'll never get anywhere worrying about this - stop this thread and put in 
>your order to whoever. Chances are, it'll be OK anyway.

You're right of course. Sometimes one just has to take a chance. Worse
comes to worse, I'm paying £8 extra a month. Thanks for all the
advice/information everyone.

Doughboy

In article , Doughboy
 scribeth thus
>On 02 Jun 2008 07:23:04 GMT, Klunk  wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 06:48:06 +0000, Doughboy passed an empty day by
>>writing:
>>
>>> It's unfortunate I have to leave it to chance, because if they can't
>>> provide DSL, I'll be stuck with a BT phoneline which will be costing me
>>> £8/month more than Virgin are currently charging me for line rental.
>>
>>I've probably missed a bit of this thread somewhere. What was the reason 
>>for leaving Virgin and taking a chance on BT?
>
>I didn't specify so you haven't missed anything but I want to leave
>Virgin Broadband because I'm unhappy with their Traffic Management,
>which drops my connection from 4Mb to 1Mb for 5 hours if I download
>over 700Mb, their plans to introduce Phorm, 

I thought that had been knocked on the head?..

>and the fact that they
>treat their customers with contempt and introduce these measures
>without informing them.
>
>The fact that they're charging me £25/month for this when I can get a
>non-traffic managed 8Mb ADSL connection for £15/month is another
>reason.

Give their retention's dept a ring and a grumble, this sometimes can
result in rather good deals;!...
>

Not All is that wonderful in the ADSL world either...
>Doughboy

-- 
Tony Sayer

On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:05:26 +0100, tony sayer 
wrote:

>In article , Doughboy
> scribeth thus
>>On 02 Jun 2008 07:23:04 GMT, Klunk  wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 06:48:06 +0000, Doughboy passed an empty day by
>>>writing:
>>>
>>>> It's unfortunate I have to leave it to chance, because if they can't
>>>> provide DSL, I'll be stuck with a BT phoneline which will be costing me
>>>> £8/month more than Virgin are currently charging me for line rental.
>>>
>>>I've probably missed a bit of this thread somewhere. What was the reason 
>>>for leaving Virgin and taking a chance on BT?
>>
>>I didn't specify so you haven't missed anything but I want to leave
>>Virgin Broadband because I'm unhappy with their Traffic Management,
>>which drops my connection from 4Mb to 1Mb for 5 hours if I download
>>over 700Mb, their plans to introduce Phorm, 
>
>I thought that had been knocked on the head?..

It's been in place for at least a year between 4pm-9pm. They're
recently extended it to most of the day but the thresholds have been
raised: http://www.virginmedia.com/help/traffic-management.php

>>and the fact that they
>>treat their customers with contempt and introduce these measures
>>without informing them.
>>
>>The fact that they're charging me £25/month for this when I can get a
>>non-traffic managed 8Mb ADSL connection for £15/month is another
>>reason.
>
>Give their retention's dept a ring and a grumble, this sometimes can
>result in rather good deals;!...

I just did that for my parents and got £20/month knocked off their
bill!

Once I've transferred my phone to BT, I could see if they'll reduce my
Broadband price but that would require me signing up to another 12
months with them which would leave me stuck if they introduced Phorm
and frankly, I despise them so much now that I don't really want to
give them any more money

>Not All is that wonderful in the ADSL world either...

True, but at least with a BT line I have a choice of ADSL providers.

Doughboy

On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 20:15:04 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
writing:

> Klunk wrote:
>> On Sun, 01 Jun 2008 15:42:16 +0100, kraftee passed an empty day by
>> writing:
>>
>>> Klunk wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 01 Jun 2008 11:33:13 +0100, Graham. passed an empty day by
>>>> writing:
>>>>
>>>>> "Doughboy"  wrote in message
>>>>> news:hjg344djb4qu528qea6q3h0p3u7e1og5kn@4ax.com...
>>>>>> I want to get my BT line reconnected so I can get ADSL broadband,
>>>>>> so I phoned BT to ask whether there's a DACS on my line. All they
>>>>>> said was that if there was it would be up to my broadband provider
>>>>>> to arrange for it to be removed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not happy about the possibility of paying to have the line
>>>>>> reconnected and signing a contract with a broadband provider only
>>>>>> to find my connection's rubbish due to the presence of a DACS and
>>>>>> then perhaps find that my provider has trouble getting BT to remove
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there anything I can do to ensure my line won't have a DACS on
>>>>>> it before I get it reconnected or am I worrying too much and would
>>>>>> BT remove one if present as soon as asked by my provider?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Doughboy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I always contend that I can tell if a given line is DACSd simply by
>>>>> listening to the dialtone.
>>>>> The dialtone generated by the DACS sounds quite different to my ear
>>>>> than that
>>>>> supplied direct from an exchange linecard. It is more "coloured",
>>>>> audibly pixilated, to coin a phrase. The audio quality of speech
>>>>> sound like it has had an extra dose of codec, which of course it
>>>>> has, but the DT
>>>>> and NU tones are the real giveaway.
>>>>>
>>>>> NTL lines sound very similar, no doubt for similar reasons
>>>>
>>>> I used to know a guy who said he could tell the difference too. It
>>>> was quite funny how often he got it wrong and he became the local CST
>>>> laughing stock with the nickname 'ears'. He also used to say he could
>>>> tell the difference between CD, Vinyl, Minidisc and MP3 with just as
>>>> little success. Not that I am suggesting for a moment that you are
>>>> unable to do what you say.
>>>>
>>>> For me, the easy way to tell is clip a butt across it, pick up
>>>> dialtone, break it, hang up and then listen for all the digital mush
>>>> which is very apparent.
>>>
>>> It is even easier with the new type test tele's as they can't pull
>>> dial tone with out forcing it, if you monitor for digital mush then
>>> you would get confused as it would be present on all DSL lines.
>>
>> If you stick just one leg the older blue tele 300's would not lock out.
>> Failing that hold the centre button for 5 seconds and listen to the
>> lovely der der der der der der dooo doooo . . . .
> 
> Which is exactly what I said.....

Where?

On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 08:30:12 +0100, Peter Crosland passed an empty day by
writing:

>>> On the contrary you seem to have missed the point! If you have an
>>> unbundled BT line and try and report a fault using BT's automated
>>> fault reporting system it will simply play you a recorded message
>>> stating that it is not a BT line and you have to report it to the
>>> company that it has been unbundled to. Is that clear?
>>
>> Yes, if you do not pay BT Retail for the line you cannot use their
>> automated reporting tools.
>>
>> You have to contact your supplier to raise faults for the service they
>> provide you. Some suppliers such as BT Retail may have automated tools
>> that other may or may not have.
>>
>> There is no extra layer of bureaucracy, to get back to the point I was
>> making when I joined this thread.
> 
> 
> You really don't get it do you? If the line is a BT one faults can be
> reported 24/7/365 via their automated fault reporting system.
> 
> If it is not a BT line, faults have to be reported to the line provider,
> none of which, AFAIK has a 24/7/365 automated reporting system. In many
> case this means that the customer has to talk to the supplier who then
> pass the fault details to BT/Openreach. That is, IMHO, another layer of
> bureaucracy to deal with. Worse still the fault can only be reported
> during their office hours. Given that a significant number of faults can
> be dealt with automatically and remotely the non BT system can add
> significantly to the time the fault takes to be cleared.
> 
> Peter Crosland

If you have a BT line then yes, you can report the fault 24/7/365 (not 
sure about business lines and ISDN mind you).

If you have a TalkTalk (Opal or whatever they come up as on CSS) you may 
or may not have 24/7/365 automatic reporting. However, there is no extra 
layer of bureaucracy at all. The systems are all automated 24/7/365 for 
any CP to input the fault into. Be that BT, Opal, Cauldwell, Orange, 
Pink, Yellow and green. There customer interfaces are all feeding into 
the same system.

The only difference is the availability of the fault reporting tools and 
operational hours provided by different CP's. This may be a selling point 
to some people who believe that being able to raise a fault at 2am in the 
morning is going to get a line fixed any quicker.

It is all part of the equivalence and competition compliance rules that 
have been in effect for a couple of years now.

On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 08:24:55 +0000, Doughboy passed an empty day by
writing:

> On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 15:37:48 +0100, "George Weston"
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>>"Doughboy"  wrote in message
>>news:bls744ds0bm3nme9kqo6b6khnep9mrmqs8@4ax.com...
>>> On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:07:46 +0100, "Graham J"
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Doughboy"  wrote in message
>>>>news:s3u344pisi5onpvgkem2l2duccq7q70tp4@4ax.com...
>>>>> On Sat, 31 May 2008 22:41:06 +0100, Eeyore
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Doughboy wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I want to get my BT line reconnected so I can get ADSL broadband,
>>>>>>> so I phoned BT to ask whether there's a DACS on my line. All they
>>>>>>> said was that if there was it would be up to my broadband provider
>>>>>>> to arrange for it to be removed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not happy about the possibility of paying to have the line
>>>>>>> reconnected and signing a contract with a broadband provider only
>>>>>>> to find my connection's rubbish due to the presence of a DACS and
>>>>>>> then perhaps find that my provider has trouble getting BT to
>>>>>>> remove it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is there anything I can do to ensure my line won't have a DACS on
>>>>>>> it before I get it reconnected or am I worrying too much and would
>>>>>>> BT remove one if present as soon as asked by my provider?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>How much are they planning to charge you to reconnect the line ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It might make as much sense to request a new line (sans DACS).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Graham
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm planning on taking the offer currently available for
>>>>> installation for £30.
>>>>>
>>>>> I haven't had a BT service here for about 8 years so I don't know if
>>>>> there's still a line that can be reconnected but when I previously
>>>>> enquired I was told that I would have to pay the full installation
>>>>> charge (I didn't discuss the offer at that time as I just wanted to
>>>>> find out the situation). Are you saying that if I request a new line
>>>>> rather than a reconnect, I can stipulate it must be without DACS?
>>>>
>>>>No, you cannot make any such stipulation.  If a BT engineer has to
>>>>attend the premises to install the new line, you may be able to find
>>>>out from him whether a DACS will be used.  You may also be able to say
>>>>that you don't want a DACS, and ask the engineer to speak to his
>>>>supervisor; in which case
>>>>the job may be marked as incomplete and returned to planning.
>>>
>>> I'd be wary of trying this in case they decide that I've effectively
>>> cancelled the order and then charge me whatever they decide for the
>>> call-out.
>>
>>
>>They shouldn't charge you - and if they did, you'd have a good case for
>>arguing with them if you had stated at the outset you wanted the line
>>for a broadband connection.
>>Bear in mind that it's physically impossible to provide an ADSL
>>connection on a DACSed line, so they wouldn't have a case against you.
> 
> But as people have already said, BT don't allow you to stipulate the
> line has to be suitable for ADSL and having told me this at the time of
> placing the order, if I proceed I would be accepting that condition.
> 
> I have a bad memory of BT trying to charge me much more than they'd
> quoted me for an install at my last property and it taking months to get
> them to back down and stop threatening me.
> 
>>>>If BT have to use a