Summary:

The dispute relates to a call out charge back in January. The charge is 
unfair and wrong and I don't want to be bullied into paying, but need 
the phone line. I've been cut off now and wonder if I could pay and then 
hope to get the money back via a small claims court action.



The shortened version for anyone who can be bothered:

The problem was a very real and annoying intermittent noise on the line 
which was not present on the day the engineer called.

It has often shown up since (up until mid April) and once I phoned 
faults when it was bad. The lady could hear it and said the call was 
being recorded. I've referred BT to this recording but they seem to 
ignore that and insist that as their engineer found no fault when he 
tested the line, the fault must be with my equipment. (They also ignore 
the fact that the engineer tested the line with my equipment attached 
and found no problem with it)

I've tried to avoid dealing with this by phone as my anger management 
skills are not really up to dealing with the foreigners at the other 
end. I've sent a few emails and web form mails. This achieved no more 
than a letter telling me that "the engineer found the fault was not with 
their network" and so the charge is fair.

I've also written repeatedly saying I want to escalate the complaint and 
asking how to do this and asking if I've exhausted their procedures so I 
can move the complaint on the regulatory bodies. They haven't answered this.

Two weeks ago I wrote to the "Office of the Chairman" address ago and 
had a letter back saying they would look into it.

Yesterday I got a letter imposing a £7.50 late payment charge and 
warning me that non payment would lead to disconnection. I presumed it 
must be a mistake as I hadn't had a further reply from the "Office of 
the Chairman", however the phone service seems to have been cut off today.

I feel I have a good case but don't want to be bullied by BT who 
incidentally have tried something similar on a neighbour (OVER £500 in 
their case). On the other hand I'm half way through a contract with BT 
for my broadband. I presume I have to keep paying even if it too is cut 
off?? I'm wondering if I should just pay the disputed charge and then 
attempt a small claims court action (is this the same as money claim 
online?) to recover the money. Are there any other reasonable options?? 
Comments and advice sought please . . .

Vote with your feet and the legal system, such that it is.

"rainandsnow"  wrote in message 
news:6a5cskF36i5b8U1@mid.individual.net...
| Summary:
|
| The dispute relates to a call out charge back in January. The charge is
| unfair and wrong and I don't want to be bullied into paying, but need
| the phone line. I've been cut off now and wonder if I could pay and then
| hope to get the money back via a small claims court action.
|
|
|
| The shortened version for anyone who can be bothered:
|
| The problem was a very real and annoying intermittent noise on the line
| which was not present on the day the engineer called.
|
| It has often shown up since (up until mid April) and once I phoned
| faults when it was bad. The lady could hear it and said the call was
| being recorded. I've referred BT to this recording but they seem to
| ignore that and insist that as their engineer found no fault when he
| tested the line, the fault must be with my equipment. (They also ignore
| the fact that the engineer tested the line with my equipment attached
| and found no problem with it)
|
| I've tried to avoid dealing with this by phone as my anger management
| skills are not really up to dealing with the foreigners at the other
| end. I've sent a few emails and web form mails. This achieved no more
| than a letter telling me that "the engineer found the fault was not with
| their network" and so the charge is fair.
|
| I've also written repeatedly saying I want to escalate the complaint and
| asking how to do this and asking if I've exhausted their procedures so I
| can move the complaint on the regulatory bodies. They haven't answered 
this.
|
| Two weeks ago I wrote to the "Office of the Chairman" address ago and
| had a letter back saying they would look into it.
|
| Yesterday I got a letter imposing a £7.50 late payment charge and
| warning me that non payment would lead to disconnection. I presumed it
| must be a mistake as I hadn't had a further reply from the "Office of
| the Chairman", however the phone service seems to have been cut off today.
|
| I feel I have a good case but don't want to be bullied by BT who
| incidentally have tried something similar on a neighbour (OVER £500 in
| their case). On the other hand I'm half way through a contract with BT
| for my broadband. I presume I have to keep paying even if it too is cut
| off?? I'm wondering if I should just pay the disputed charge and then
| attempt a small claims court action (is this the same as money claim
| online?) to recover the money. Are there any other reasonable options??
| Comments and advice sought please . . .

At this stage BT have the whip hand. The lesson is never assume anything. 
Pay up and then continue to negotiate is the best thing. BT are notorious 
for their inability to communicate with customers and different departments. 
In my experience BT do make it very clear that if you report a fault and 
none is found that you will be charged for an engineering visit. The normal 
procedure is for the customer to disconnect all internal wiring and 
equipment and use just one phon connected to the test socket behind the 
removeable facepate of the master socket. Did you do this and was the fault 
still present?

Peter Crosland

> "rainandsnow"  wrote in message
> news:6a5cskF36i5b8U1@mid.individual.net... | Summary:
> |
> GIANT SNIP
> GIST IS END USER CHARGED FOR NOISY LINE - ENGINEER NOT ABLE TO FIND 
NOISE

Before doing anything with this, has the noise gone or is it still there?
If it was your kit and the noise has gone, tough shit.
If it is lazy useless engineer syndrome (Mummy I don't want to climb that 
pole/get wet/go in that box) then make yourself a right royal pain in the 
arse with the patch manager.

Make a note of this number: 0800 671 605. It is the BT Engineers control 
number in most parts of the UK. ('Select operational area #1, then your 
area + #, then 'if you have received an ring control message' + #). Ring 
this number, tell them you are a member of the public and you either want 
the patch managers number, or you want him to call you. Tell them the 
number has been published on the Internet and you will make it very 
public and make them very busy if you don't get your request. Then take 
the issue up with him/her. As there are usually only three controllers 
running an area AND THE CALLS ARE FREE, you can keep ringing them until 
you get your way.

I has a problem like this in Reading a few years ago. I was given the 
details of a junior manager, one Mark Arnold. I staked the guy out and 
issued a summons against him at his home address. I took photos of 
engineers working in the highway without the correct legal kit and made a 
bloody nightmare of myself. I got my money back and my line put back on, 
plus 2 years line rental free. It is worth the effort but remember - you 
must act legally, you must not harass or threaten, and you need to be 
dedicated. The squeaky wheel will always get the oil.

Noisy faults are difficult to find and it is 50/50 as a rule as to if it 
is customer equipment or network. It does help if the engineer gets off 
his fat lazy ass and looks for it however. Good luck.

Peter Crosland wrote:
> At this stage BT have the whip hand. The lesson is never assume anything. 
> Pay up and then continue to negotiate is the best thing. BT are notorious 
> for their inability to communicate with customers and different departments. 
> In my experience BT do make it very clear that if you report a fault and 
> none is found that you will be charged for an engineering visit.

I can't find their terms but I understood that the customer is charged 
if the fault proves to be after the master socket. Is that incorrect?? 
It is such rotten logic for them to say that no fault found = fault must 
be with customers equipment - surely that can't be in their terms??



>The normal 
> procedure is for the customer to disconnect all internal wiring and 
> equipment and use just one phon connected to the test socket behind the 
> removeable facepate of the master socket. Did you do this and was the fault 
> still present?

Yes I did - on many occasions. I removed the front plate from the master 
socket and plugged in a variety of known good phones and this never made 
any difference to the noise.

It has been a long standing fault. I had a BT engineer out in October 
2007 and he found nothing. Typically the fault will show up, get worse, 
then disappear after I've reported it. In October however, the fault 
report was left open and an engineer tested at the exchange two days 
later and found a "massive earth loop" near the exchange. Curing that 
cured the noise for a while. An engineer told me they had replaced one 
section of line due to trees rubbing through it but BT have done a lot 
of work at and near the exchange recently and it looks as if they have 
may have cured the fault - which has not shown up since mid April.

Thanks for your advice to pay up at the moment. I suppose that does seem 
the sensible option now but I'm surprised at being cut off after the 
charimans office said they would look into it.

David James wrote:
>> "rainandsnow"  wrote in message
>> news:6a5cskF36i5b8U1@mid.individual.net... | Summary:
>> |
>> GIANT SNIP
>> GIST IS END USER CHARGED FOR NOISY LINE - ENGINEER NOT ABLE TO FIND 
> NOISE
> 
> Before doing anything with this, has the noise gone or is it still there?

see other reply - noise has not shown up since Mid April following a lot 
of work by BT on and near the exchange (1 mile from me)


> If it was your kit and the noise has gone, tough shit.

It wasn't my kit. I know better than to report it without disconnecting 
everything from master socket.


> If it is lazy useless engineer syndrome (Mummy I don't want to climb that 
> pole/get wet/go in that box) then make yourself a right royal pain in the 
> arse with the patch manager.

No the engineers are great. They tried but an intermittent fault in 
anything is notoriously difficult to find. Before the guy came out in 
January he phoned and I told him the noise was not showing up and so he 
wouldn't find anything at that time but he came anyway. (It was the day 
after I'd reported it)


> Make a note of this number: 0800 671 605. It is the BT Engineers control 
> number in most parts of the UK. ('Select operational area #1, then your 
> area + #, then 'if you have received an ring control message' + #). Ring 
> this number, tell them you are a member of the public and you either want 
> the patch managers number, or you want him to call you. Tell them the 
> number has been published on the Internet and you will make it very 
> public and make them very busy if you don't get your request. Then take 
> the issue up with him/her. As there are usually only three controllers 
> running an area AND THE CALLS ARE FREE, you can keep ringing them until 
> you get your way.
> 
> I has a problem like this in Reading a few years ago. I was given the 
> details of a junior manager, one Mark Arnold. I staked the guy out and 
> issued a summons against him at his home address. I took photos of 
> engineers working in the highway without the correct legal kit and made a 
> bloody nightmare of myself. I got my money back and my line put back on, 
> plus 2 years line rental free. It is worth the effort but remember - you 
> must act legally, you must not harass or threaten, and you need to be 
> dedicated. The squeaky wheel will always get the oil.
> 
> Noisy faults are difficult to find and it is 50/50 as a rule as to if it 
> is customer equipment or network. It does help if the engineer gets off 
> his fat lazy ass and looks for it however. Good luck.


What they need is a system where they can get an engineer in the 
vicinity to call at short notice to catch the fault while it is still 
there. I've often asked for that but they can't do it. I also asked for 
a number I could phone when the noise was there so they could hear it. 
They ignored that. - Hence me phoning faults once when it was bad. The 
lady could hear it clearly and confirmed the call was being recorded. 
She was very keen to send someone out, but I didn't want another call 
out charge and thought that with her having it recorded they would 
believe me, but I don't think they've even bothered to listen to it.

On Wed, 28 May 2008 17:39:52 +0100, rainandsnow scribbled:

> David James wrote:
>>> BIG SNIP - has intermittent noisy fault on line since Oct 07. Has 
been charged for a FNF (Fault not found). Is happy fault is not with own 
kit, appears to have some element of OH feed.

If you are going to pay the fee then you can argue that;
1) Your installation should be at the current network standards (the 
engineer who visited should have made sure of it)
2) Your extension wiring and equipment are assumed to be fault free as 
the engineer who visited you did not disconnect them.
3) The work that BT has done, being chargeable, should be guaranteed for 
a year. If you paid them for an extension it would be.

With this in mind you can pay your bill and then issue a County Court 
Summons against BT for their defective workmanship, Issue it to their 
registered office at 81 Newgate Street. You can do it online: https://
www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/csmco2/index.jsp

It would be reasonable to claim for the fee, your Court Costs, bang on 
£85 for half an hours solicitor time + interest at judgement rate. If you 
have any other costs such as writing letters (stamps) or calls add them 
in as an admin charge. Yes, it will cost you a bit of money to get it 
sorted out, but it is pretty damb effective.

When I did it the manager passed it on to the legal team, who dealt with 
it. The manager resigned and I had a whole cabinet uplifted because of 
it. BT are awful to deal with. For a communications company they are 
utterly shit. Don't f**k about getting wound up with them, they don't 
care what you think! Get even.

Can I take issue with your point where you say the engineer that called 
was great. That is bullshit. If he was great he would have taken 
ownership of the issue, given you his contact number and at least done 
something with the fault. Engineers have enough freedom and patch 
management to do this. The majority of the incompetent lazy BT engineers 
won't do this. They will clear the job, raise a job and run away after 
talking the talk, drinking your tea and telling you how hard it is to 
find an intermittent fault. The better ones (who are few and far between) 
will take the issue and sort it as they are confident in their abilities.

On Wed, 28 May 2008 17:39:52 +0100, rainandsnow
 wrote:


>No the engineers are great.

Yep in 40 years plus of having dealings with GPO and BT I have never
had cause to complain at all about their engineering staff and the
same goes for VM staff in recent years . It is the lazy keyboard
tapping staff in the offices and call centers of each that want to
waken up and do their jobs correctly and efficiently it may also help
if they where taught to speak English .

On Wed, 28 May 2008 17:53:31 +0000, mymail scribbled:

> On Wed, 28 May 2008 17:39:52 +0100, rainandsnow
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>>No the engineers are great.
> 
> Yep in 40 years plus of having dealings with GPO and BT I have never had
> cause to complain at all about their engineering staff and the same goes
> for VM staff in recent years . It is the lazy keyboard tapping staff in
> the offices and call centers of each that want to waken up and do their
> jobs correctly and efficiently it may also help if they where taught to
> speak English .

I don't agree. The majority of them are lazy twats - and pretty clueless 
at that. There are rare flashes of brilliance in every CST, but they are 
few and far between.

>> David James wrote:
>
> It would be reasonable to claim for the fee, your Court Costs, bang on
> £85 for half an hours solicitor time + interest at judgement rate. If you
> have any other costs such as writing letters (stamps) or calls add them
> in as an admin charge. Yes, it will cost you a bit of money to get it
> sorted out, but it is pretty damb effective.


Small claim track court does not usually award solicitor's costs.

Peter Crosland

In article ,
mymail@hotmail.com scribeth thus
>On Wed, 28 May 2008 17:39:52 +0100, rainandsnow
> wrote:
>
>
>>No the engineers are great.
>
>Yep in 40 years plus of having dealings with GPO and BT I have never
>had cause to complain at all about their engineering staff and the
>same goes for VM staff in recent years . It is the lazy keyboard
>tapping staff in the offices and call centers of each that want to
>waken up and do their jobs correctly and efficiently it may also help
>if they where taught to speak English .
>
>
>

No its not their fault .. its the management thats made it that way...
-- 
Tony Sayer

On Wed, 28 May 2008 19:02:03 +0100, Peter Crosland passed an empty day by
writing:

>>> David James wrote:
>>
>> It would be reasonable to claim for the fee, your Court Costs, bang on
>> 85 for half an hours solicitor time + interest at judgement rate. If
>> you have any other costs such as writing letters (stamps) or calls add
>> them in as an admin charge. Yes, it will cost you a bit of money to get
>> it sorted out, but it is pretty damb effective.
> 
> 
> Small claim track court does not usually award solicitor's costs.
> 
> Peter Crosland

Perhaps you have not used it as much as me then. They allow half an hour 
as a rule, for the initial consultation. After all, you have to take 
advice to ask what to do. It does depend on the district recorder/judge 
mind you. 

>On Wed, 28 May 2008 Tony Sayer wrote:

No its not their fault .. its the management thats made it that way...

I don't agree. The management is also a shower of shit, but it is the 
behaviour of the engineers knocking on doors and (supposedly) doing the 
job that is the real issue. 

With better management it could only get better - making these people do 
a proper days work would be a good start. Consider that most BT engineers 
earn over £23k per year for a 36.5 hour week (what is that, about £12 an 
hour?) Most of them are not worth half of that, a few are worth every 
penny of it. Still, they have to get the money to pay em' from somewhere 
so f**k the OP and his noisy line, pay up or we'll cut you off!

mymail@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Wed, 28 May 2008 17:39:52 +0100, rainandsnow
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>> No the engineers are great.
> 
> Yep in 40 years plus of having dealings with GPO and BT I have never
> had cause to complain at all about their engineering staff and the
> same goes for VM staff in recent years . It is the lazy keyboard
> tapping staff in the offices and call centers of each that want to
> waken up and do their jobs correctly and efficiently it may also help
> if they where taught to speak English .
> 
> 
> 
Well, they can probably spell "centre" correctly.

-- 
Moving things in still pictures!

>>>
>>> It would be reasonable to claim for the fee, your Court Costs, bang on
>>> 85 for half an hours solicitor time + interest at judgement rate. If
>>> you have any other costs such as writing letters (stamps) or calls add
>>> them in as an admin charge. Yes, it will cost you a bit of money to get
>>> it sorted out, but it is pretty damb effective.
>>
>>
>> Small claim track court does not usually award solicitor's costs.
>>
>> Peter Crosland
>
> Perhaps you have not used it as much as me then. They allow half an hour
> as a rule, for the initial consultation. After all, you have to take
> advice to ask what to do. It does depend on the district recorder/judge
> mind you.


http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/ex307_0206.pdf

Suggests otherwise.One of the main reasons for the Small Claims Track is to 
keep cost low and discouarges the use of solicitors and their fees. In any 
case the claimants can only claim if they actually paid a solicitor.

Peter Crosland

In news:nVh%j.32621$cZ3.16045@newsfe10.ams2,
®i©ardo  typed, for some strange, unexplained reason:
: mymail@hotmail.com wrote:
: > On Wed, 28 May 2008 17:39:52 +0100, rainandsnow
: >  wrote:
: >
: >
: >> No the engineers are great.
: >
: > Yep in 40 years plus of having dealings with GPO and BT I have never
: > had cause to complain at all about their engineering staff and the
: > same goes for VM staff in recent years . It is the lazy keyboard
: > tapping staff in the offices and call centers of each that want to
: > waken up and do their jobs correctly and efficiently it may also
: > help if they where taught to speak English .
: >
: >
: >
: Well, they can probably spell "centre" correctly.

And "were"

Ivor

On Wed, 28 May 2008 20:13:09 +0100, Peter Crosland passed an empty day by
writing:


>>>> It would be reasonable to claim for the fee, your Court Costs, bang
>>>> on 85 for half an hours solicitor time + interest at judgement rate.
>>>> If you have any other costs such as writing letters (stamps) or calls
>>>> add them in as an admin charge. Yes, it will cost you a bit of money
>>>> to get it sorted out, but it is pretty damb effective.
>>>
>>>
>>> Small claim track court does not usually award solicitor's costs.
>>>
>>> Peter Crosland
>>
>> Perhaps you have not used it as much as me then. They allow half an
>> hour as a rule, for the initial consultation. After all, you have to
>> take advice to ask what to do. It does depend on the district
>> recorder/judge mind you.
> 
> 
> http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/ex307_0206.pdf
> 
> Suggests otherwise.One of the main reasons for the Small Claims Track is
> to keep cost low and discouarges the use of solicitors and their fees.
> In any case the claimants can only claim if they actually paid a
> solicitor.
> 
> Peter Crosland

The reality is this, if you put in a claim for anything over 30 minutes 
or about £85, it WILL get zeroed. Yes, you should also have consulted a 
legal professional - you would not assume to do it for the hell of it. It 
is not unreasonable to seek advice in such a matter. That advice may be 
to take the small claims route. Such advice costs money and can form part 
of the claim in this case. You can refer to your pdf as long as you like 
Mr Crosland. I am sure there are many pieces of paper that don't relate 
to the actually reality of a situation in all walks of life.

>>>>> It would be reasonable to claim for the fee, your Court Costs, bang
>>>>> on 85 for half an hours solicitor time + interest at judgement rate.
>>>>> If you have any other costs such as writing letters (stamps) or calls
>>>>> add them in as an admin charge. Yes, it will cost you a bit of money
>>>>> to get it sorted out, but it is pretty damb effective.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Small claim track court does not usually award solicitor's costs.
>>>>
>>>> Peter Crosland
>>>
>>> Perhaps you have not used it as much as me then. They allow half an
>>> hour as a rule, for the initial consultation. After all, you have to
>>> take advice to ask what to do. It does depend on the district
>>> recorder/judge mind you.
>>
>>
>> http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/ex307_0206.pdf
>>
>> Suggests otherwise.One of the main reasons for the Small Claims Track is
>> to keep cost low and discouarges the use of solicitors and their fees.
>> In any case the claimants can only claim if they actually paid a
>> solicitor.
>>
>> Peter Crosland
>
> The reality is this, if you put in a claim for anything over 30 minutes
> or about £85, it WILL get zeroed. Yes, you should also have consulted a
> legal professional - you would not assume to do it for the hell of it. It
> is not unreasonable to seek advice in such a matter. That advice may be
> to take the small claims route. Such advice costs money and can form part
> of the claim in this case. You can refer to your pdf as long as you like
> Mr Crosland. I am sure there are many pieces of paper that don't relate
> to the actually reality of a situation in all walks of life.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. However, the Court's own 
documentation carries rather more weight than that of an anonymous NG 
poster. The document also contains a lot of other information that the OP 
would be well advised to read before actually issuing proceedings.

Peter Crosland

In article , rainandsnow <therainand
snow@NOTTHISBITyahoo.co.uk> writes
>
>Thanks for your advice to pay up at the moment. I suppose that does seem 
>the sensible option now but I'm surprised at being cut off after the 
>charimans office said they would look into it.
>

After 7 engineer visits in 15 working days, my BT Broadband problems
were unresolved. In that time I had six different engineers turn up, and
it was clear to me, that for what ever reason, they had no knowledge of
the other engineer visits.

Each visit (apart from the last when the 1st engineer turned up again)
was the same, the engineer had been briefed that the fault was due to my
equipment, plugged something into my wall socket then pronounced the
problem was actually at the exchange, fixed it, and my DSL service would
then work up to about 6pm and then cut out again.

I wrote a letter to Jillian Lewis, BT's Director of Customer Services. A
lady phoned me back and said they were looking into it for me. Two
months later, a jolly chap with a very posh voice phoned me and said
he'd noticed I'd not had a problem for two months and how delighted I
must be with BT that everything was working excellently.

He was however a bit deflated when I explained that it was the man from
Virgin Media who had fixed my broadband woes, and that my broadband from
BT had officially been ceased for a month when he phoned. Internal
communications or the lack of them within BT are unbelievably bad !!

-- 
Kevin

On Wed, 28 May 2008 21:02:44 +0100, Peter Crosland passed an empty day by
writing:

> 
> You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. 
> Peter Crosland

Indeed, and everyone is entitled to yours. As a theoretical observer - 
rather than someone who is in and out of the County Court every couple of 
months - I will give your view about as much weight as is due to it. You 
are, just like everybody else here, 'an anonymous NG' poster be you Peter 
Crosland, Peter Pan, or Peter Pervert.

kkm@w3.to wrote:
> In article , rainandsnow <therainand
> snow@NOTTHISBITyahoo.co.uk> writes
>> Thanks for your advice to pay up at the moment. I suppose that does seem 
>> the sensible option now but I'm surprised at being cut off after the 
>> charimans office said they would look into it.
>>
> 
> After 7 engineer visits in 15 working days, my BT Broadband problems
> were unresolved. In that time I had six different engineers turn up, and
> it was clear to me, that for what ever reason, they had no knowledge of
> the other engineer visits.
> 
> Each visit (apart from the last when the 1st engineer turned up again)
> was the same, the engineer had been briefed that the fault was due to my
> equipment, plugged something into my wall socket then pronounced the
> problem was actually at the exchange, fixed it, and my DSL service would
> then work up to about 6pm and then cut out again.
> 
> I wrote a letter to Jillian Lewis, BT's Director of Customer Services. A
> lady phoned me back and said they were looking into it for me. Two
> months later, a jolly chap with a very posh voice phoned me and said
> he'd noticed I'd not had a problem for two months and how delighted I
> must be with BT that everything was working excellently.
> 
> He was however a bit deflated when I explained that it was the man from
> Virgin Media who had fixed my broadband woes, and that my broadband from
> BT had officially been ceased for a month when he phoned. Internal
> communications or the lack of them within BT are unbelievably bad !!

Lack of communication *may* be relevant here - my phone was switched on 
again yesterday evening after being off all afternoon!

I had responded to the recent letter warning I'd be cut off by faxing 
and emailing the Office of the Chairman in the morning expressing 
surprise at having received the warning when they had told me the matter 
was being looked into.

It seems reasonable to have concluded that it was cut off, rather than 
it being a fault for the following reasons:

1) Had received a written warning this would happen if I didn't pay 
immediately (written on 22nd and arrived 27th)
2) Broadband still working
3) Line not dead - white noise but no dialling tone.

So now I can only presume that the Office of the Chairman reversed the 
decision to cut me off - and will now have to wait to see what their 
expected written reply says.

I expect that, horrified by their abominable behaviour they are now 
going to offer me free unlimited broadband for life, fire all the staff 
who didn't bother to look into my case, close down their foreign call 
centres and reveiew all decisions relating to all UK disputed call out 
charges over the past two years . . . or am I being naive?

Peter Crosland wrote:

>>> http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/ex307_0206.pdf

  The document also contains a lot of other information that the OP
> would be well advised to read before actually issuing proceedings.
> 
> Peter Crosland 

Thanks. I've saved that PDF in case I have to go ahead. The fact that 
the line is mysteriously now working again though (see my other post 
this morning) gives some cause for optimism.

>>> Thanks for your advice to pay up at the moment. I suppose that does seem
>>> the sensible option now but I'm surprised at being cut off after the 
>>> charimans office said they would look into it.
>>>
>>
>> After 7 engineer visits in 15 working days, my BT Broadband problems
>> were unresolved. In that time I had six different engineers turn up, and
>> it was clear to me, that for what ever reason, they had no knowledge of
>> the other engineer visits.
>>
>> Each visit (apart from the last when the 1st engineer turned up again)
>> was the same, the engineer had been briefed that the fault was due to my
>> equipment, plugged something into my wall socket then pronounced the
>> problem was actually at the exchange, fixed it, and my DSL service would
>> then work up to about 6pm and then cut out again.
>>
>> I wrote a letter to Jillian Lewis, BT's Director of Customer Services. A
>> lady phoned me back and said they were looking into it for me. Two
>> months later, a jolly chap with a very posh voice phoned me and said
>> he'd noticed I'd not had a problem for two months and how delighted I
>> must be with BT that everything was working excellently.
>>
>> He was however a bit deflated when I explained that it was the man from
>> Virgin Media who had fixed my broadband woes, and that my broadband from
>> BT had officially been ceased for a month when he phoned. Internal
>> communications or the lack of them within BT are unbelievably bad !!
>
> Lack of communication *may* be relevant here - my phone was switched on 
> again yesterday evening after being off all afternoon!
>
> I had responded to the recent letter warning I'd be cut off by faxing and 
> emailing the Office of the Chairman in the morning expressing surprise at 
> having received the warning when they had told me the matter was being 
> looked into.
>
> It seems reasonable to have concluded that it was cut off, rather than it 
> being a fault for the following reasons:
>
> 1) Had received a written warning this would happen if I didn't pay 
> immediately (written on 22nd and arrived 27th)
> 2) Broadband still working
> 3) Line not dead - white noise but no dialling tone.
>
> So now I can only presume that the Office of the Chairman reversed the 
> decision to cut me off - and will now have to wait to see what their 
> expected written reply says.
>
> I expect that, horrified by their abominable behaviour they are now going 
> to offer me free unlimited broadband for life, fire all the staff who 
> didn't bother to look into my case, close down their foreign call centres 
> and reveiew all decisions relating to all UK disputed call out charges 
> over the past two years . . . or am I being naive?

Just a little. In my experience the Chairman's office do get things sorted 
but like the rest of the organisation aren't good at communicating with the 
customer.

Peter Crosland

>>>> http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/ex307_0206.pdf
>
>  The document also contains a lot of other information that the OP
>> would be well advised to read before actually issuing proceedings.
>>

> Thanks. I've saved that PDF in case I have to go ahead. The fact that the 
> line is mysteriously now working again though (see my other post this 
> morning) gives some cause for optimism.

Remember that litigation should be the very last resort after all other 
means have fialed.

Peter Crosland

On Thu, 29 May 2008 11:40:30 +0100, Peter Crosland passed an empty day by
writing:
> 
> Remember that litigation should be the very last resort after all other
> means have fialed.

What sort of fialed would that be? Would it be failed or filed?

On 28 May 2008 17:13:42 GMT, David James 
wrote:

>On Wed, 28 May 2008 17:39:52 +0100, rainandsnow scribbled:
>
>> David James wrote:
>>>> BIG SNIP - has intermittent noisy fault on line since Oct 07. Has 
>been charged for a FNF (Fault not found). Is happy fault is not with own 
>kit, appears to have some element of OH feed.
>
>If you are going to pay the fee then you can argue that;
>1) Your installation should be at the current network standards (the 
>engineer who visited should have made sure of it)
>2) Your extension wiring and equipment are assumed to be fault free as 
>the engineer who visited you did not disconnect them.
>3) The work that BT has done, being chargeable, should be guaranteed for 
>a year. If you paid them for an extension it would be.
>
>With this in mind you can pay your bill and then issue a County Court 
>Summons against BT for their defective workmanship, Issue it to their 
>registered office at 81 Newgate Street. You can do it online: https://
>www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/csmco2/index.jsp
>
>It would be reasonable to claim for the fee, your Court Costs, bang on 
>£85 for half an hours solicitor time + interest at judgement rate. If you 
>have any other costs such as writing letters (stamps) or calls add them 
>in as an admin charge. Yes, it will cost you a bit of money to get it 
>sorted out, but it is pretty damb effective.

Are you sure that admin charges - cost of letters, stationery, stamps,
photocopying etc are allowed?  I thought that they weren't.

On 29 May 2008 08:51:29 GMT, Klunk  wrote:

>On Wed, 28 May 2008 21:02:44 +0100, Peter Crosland passed an empty day by
>writing:
>
>> 
>> You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. 
>> Peter Crosland
>
>Indeed, and everyone is entitled to yours. As a theoretical observer - 
>rather than someone who is in and out of the County Court every couple of 
>months - I will give your view about as much weight as is due to it. You 
>are, just like everybody else here, 'an anonymous NG' poster be you Peter 
>Crosland, Peter Pan, or Peter Pervert.

In what capacity are you in and out of court every couple of months?
Have you recovered the costs you are talking about in actual claims?

On Thu, 29 May 2008 23:05:31 +0100, judith passed an empty day by writing:

> On 29 May 2008 08:51:29 GMT, Klunk  wrote:
> 
>>On Wed, 28 May 2008 21:02:44 +0100, Peter Crosland passed an empty day
>>by writing:
>>
>>
>>> You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. Peter Crosland
>>
>>Indeed, and everyone is entitled to yours. As a theoretical observer -
>>rather than someone who is in and out of the County Court every couple
>>of months - I will give your view about as much weight as is due to it.
>>You are, just like everybody else here, 'an anonymous NG' poster be you
>>Peter Crosland, Peter Pan, or Peter Pervert.
> 
> In what capacity are you in and out of court every couple of months?
> Have you recovered the costs you are talking about in actual claims?

In answer to your question(s)
1) That would be confidential.
2) Yes.

On Thu, 29 May 2008 23:00:37 +0100, judith passed an empty day by writing:

> On 28 May 2008 17:13:42 GMT, David James 
> wrote:
> 
>>On Wed, 28 May 2008 17:39:52 +0100, rainandsnow scribbled:
>>
>>> David James wrote:
>>>>> BIG SNIP - has intermittent noisy fault on line since Oct 07. Has
>>been charged for a FNF (Fault not found). Is happy fault is not with own
>>kit, appears to have some element of OH feed.
>>
>>If you are going to pay the fee then you can argue that; 1) Your
>>installation should be at the current network standards (the engineer
>>who visited should have made sure of it) 2) Your extension wiring and
>>equipment are assumed to be fault free as the engineer who visited you
>>did not disconnect them. 3) The work that BT has done, being chargeable,
>>should be guaranteed for a year. If you paid them for an extension it
>>would be.
>>
>>With this in mind you can pay your bill and then issue a County Court
>>Summons against BT for their defective workmanship, Issue it to their
>>registered office at 81 Newgate Street. You can do it online: https://
>>www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/csmco2/index.jsp
>>
>>It would be reasonable to claim for the fee, your Court Costs, bang on
>>£85 for half an hours solicitor time + interest at judgement rate. If
>>you have any other costs such as writing letters (stamps) or calls add
>>them in as an admin charge. Yes, it will cost you a bit of money to get
>>it sorted out, but it is pretty damb effective.
> 
> Are you sure that admin charges - cost of letters, stationery, stamps,
> photocopying etc are allowed?  I thought that they weren't.

They form a legitimate cost in relation to the action. As long as they 
are not excessive there is usually no issue. Just once, when I was 
counterclaiming was it and the legal costs questioned. When I pointed out 
that the Plaintiff had added costs including legal fees and 
administration it put the argument to bed.

It does depend on many factors but ultimately it is the job of the D.R. 
or D.J. to make the call. If you action is just, you are not being 
belligerent and costs are accurate there is rarely a problem. Try it the 
next time you are there.

rainandsnow wrote:
> kkm@w3.to wrote:
>> In article , rainandsnow <therainand
>> snow@NOTTHISBITyahoo.co.uk> writes
>>> Thanks for your advice to pay up at the moment. I suppose that does 
>>> seem the sensible option now but I'm surprised at being cut off after 
>>> the charimans office said they would look into it.
>>>
>>
>> After 7 engineer visits in 15 working days, my BT Broadband problems
>> were unresolved. In that time I had six different engineers turn up, and
>> it was clear to me, that for what ever reason, they had no knowledge of
>> the other engineer visits.
>>
>> Each visit (apart from the last when the 1st engineer turned up again)
>> was the same, the engineer had been briefed that the fault was due to my
>> equipment, plugged something into my wall socket then pronounced the
>> problem was actually at the exchange, fixed it, and my DSL service would
>> then work up to about 6pm and then cut out again.
>>
>> I wrote a letter to Jillian Lewis, BT's Director of Customer Services. A
>> lady phoned me back and said they were looking into it for me. Two
>> months later, a jolly chap with a very posh voice phoned me and said
>> he'd noticed I'd not had a problem for two months and how delighted I
>> must be with BT that everything was working excellently.
>>
>> He was however a bit deflated when I explained that it was the man from
>> Virgin Media who had fixed my broadband woes, and that my broadband from
>> BT had officially been ceased for a month when he phoned. Internal
>> communications or the lack of them within BT are unbelievably bad !!
> 
> Lack of communication *may* be relevant here - my phone was switched on 
> again yesterday evening after being off all afternoon!
> 
> I had responded to the recent letter warning I'd be cut off by faxing 
> and emailing the Office of the Chairman in the morning expressing 
> surprise at having received the warning when they had told me the matter 
> was being looked into.
> 
> It seems reasonable to have concluded that it was cut off, rather than 
> it being a fault for the following reasons:
> 
> 1) Had received a written warning this would happen if I didn't pay 
> immediately (written on 22nd and arrived 27th)
> 2) Broadband still working
> 3) Line not dead - white noise but no dialling tone.
> 
> So now I can only presume that the Office of the Chairman reversed the 
> decision to cut me off - and will now have to wait to see what their 
> expected written reply says.
> 
> I expect that, horrified by their abominable behaviour they are now 
> going to offer me free unlimited broadband for life, fire all the staff 
> who didn't bother to look into my case, close down their foreign call 
> centres and reveiew all decisions relating to all UK disputed call out 
> charges over the past two years . . . or am I being naive?


Yes I was. I've had an email apologising for any inconvenience and 
informing me that as a goodwill gesture they have credited my account 
with the amount . . . good news, but I'm not happy that I've had this 
hanging over my head for 18 week and have had to communicate with them 
at least 16 times about it.

On Fri, 30 May 2008 10:58:35 +0100, rainandsnow passed an empty day by
writing:

> rainandsnow wrote:
>> kkm@w3.to wrote:
>>> In article , rainandsnow
>>> <therainand snow@NOTTHISBITyahoo.co.uk> writes
>>>> Thanks for your advice to pay up at the moment. I suppose that does
>>>> seem the sensible option now but I'm surprised at being cut off after
>>>> the charimans office said they would look into it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> After 7 engineer visits in 15 working days, my BT Broadband problems
>>> were unresolved. In that time I had six different engineers turn up,
>>> and it was clear to me, that for what ever reason, they had no
>>> knowledge of the other engineer visits.
>>>
>>> Each visit (apart from the last when the 1st engineer turned up again)
>>> was the same, the engineer had been briefed that the fault was due to
>>> my equipment, plugged something into my wall socket then pronounced
>>> the problem was actually at the exchange, fixed it, and my DSL service
>>> would then work up to about 6pm and then cut out again.
>>>
>>> I wrote a letter to Jillian Lewis, BT's Director of Customer Services.
>>> A lady phoned me back and said they were looking into it for me. Two
>>> months later, a jolly chap with a very posh voice phoned me and said
>>> he'd noticed I'd not had a problem for two months and how delighted I
>>> must be with BT that everything was working excellently.
>>>
>>> He was however a bit deflated when I explained that it was the man
>>> from Virgin Media who had fixed my broadband woes, and that my
>>> broadband from BT had officially been ceased for a month when he
>>> phoned. Internal communications or the lack of them within BT are
>>> unbelievably bad !!
>> 
>> Lack of communication *may* be relevant here - my phone was switched on
>> again yesterday evening after being off all afternoon!
>> 
>> I had responded to the recent letter warning I'd be cut off by faxing
>> and emailing the Office of the Chairman in the morning expressing
>> surprise at having received the warning when they had told me the
>> matter was being looked into.
>> 
>> It seems reasonable to have concluded that it was cut off, rather than
>> it being a fault for the following reasons:
>> 
>> 1) Had received a written warning this would happen if I didn't pay
>> immediately (written on 22nd and arrived 27th) 2) Broadband still
>> working
>> 3) Line not dead - white noise but no dialling tone.
>> 
>> So now I can only presume that the Office of the Chairman reversed the
>> decision to cut me off - and will now have to wait to see what their
>> expected written reply says.
>> 
>> I expect that, horrified by their abominable behaviour they are now
>> going to offer me free unlimited broadband for life, fire all the staff
>> who didn't bother to look into my case, close down their foreign call
>> centres and reveiew all decisions relating to all UK disputed call out
>> charges over the past two years . . . or am I being naive?
> 
> 
> Yes I was. I've had an email apologising for any inconvenience and
> informing me that as a goodwill gesture they have credited my account
> with the amount . . . good news, but I'm not happy that I've had this
> hanging over my head for 18 week and have had to communicate with them
> at least 16 times about it.

And I expect very soon your old noisy fault will be back again and once 
more the BT roundabout begins to spin.

Klunk wrote:
> On Fri, 30 May 2008 10:58:35 +0100, rainandsnow passed an empty day by
> writing:
> 
>> rainandsnow wrote:
>>> kkm@w3.to wrote:
>>>> In article , rainandsnow
>>>> <therainand snow@NOTTHISBITyahoo.co.uk> writes
>>>>> Thanks for your advice to pay up at the moment. I suppose that does
>>>>> seem the sensible option now but I'm surprised at being cut off after
>>>>> the charimans office said they would look into it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> After 7 engineer visits in 15 working days, my BT Broadband problems
>>>> were unresolved. In that time I had six different engineers turn up,
>>>> and it was clear to me, that for what ever reason, they had no
>>>> knowledge of the other engineer visits.
>>>>
>>>> Each visit (apart from the last when the 1st engineer turned up again)
>>>> was the same, the engineer had been briefed that the fault was due to
>>>> my equipment, plugged something into my wall socket then pronounced
>>>> the problem was actually at the exchange, fixed it, and my DSL service
>>>> would then work up to about 6pm and then cut out again.
>>>>
>>>> I wrote a letter to Jillian Lewis, BT's Director of Customer Services.
>>>> A lady phoned me back and said they were looking into it for me. Two
>>>> months later, a jolly chap with a very posh voice phoned me and said
>>>> he'd noticed I'd not had a problem for two months and how delighted I
>>>> must be with BT that everything was working excellently.
>>>>
>>>> He was however a bit deflated when I explained that it was the man
>>>> from Virgin Media who had fixed my broadband woes, and that my
>>>> broadband from BT had officially been ceased for a month when he
>>>> phoned. Internal communications or the lack of them within BT are
>>>> unbelievably bad !!
>>> Lack of communication *may* be relevant here - my phone was switched on
>>> again yesterday evening after being off all afternoon!
>>>
>>> I had responded to the recent letter warning I'd be cut off by faxing
>>> and emailing the Office of the Chairman in the morning expressing
>>> surprise at having received the warning when they had told me the
>>> matter was being looked into.
>>>
>>> It seems reasonable to have concluded that it was cut off, rather than
>>> it being a fault for the following reasons:
>>>
>>> 1) Had received a written warning this would happen if I didn't pay
>>> immediately (written on 22nd and arrived 27th) 2) Broadband still
>>> working
>>> 3) Line not dead - white noise but no dialling tone.
>>>
>>> So now I can only presume that the Office of the Chairman reversed the
>>> decision to cut me off - and will now have to wait to see what their
>>> expected written reply says.
>>>
>>> I expect that, horrified by their abominable behaviour they are now
>>> going to offer me free unlimited broadband for life, fire all the staff
>>> who didn't bother to look into my case, close down their foreign call
>>> centres and reveiew all decisions relating to all UK disputed call out
>>> charges over the past two years . . . or am I being naive?
>>
>> Yes I was. I've had an email apologising for any inconvenience and
>> informing me that as a goodwill gesture they have credited my account
>> with the amount . . . good news, but I'm not happy that I've had this
>> hanging over my head for 18 week and have had to communicate with them
>> at least 16 times about it.
> 
> And I expect very soon your old noisy fault will be back again and once 
> more the BT roundabout begins to spin.

I've asked the Chairman's Office for advice concerning this possibility.

On Fri, 30 May 2008 11:50:37 +0100, rainandsnow passed an empty day by
writing:

> Klunk wrote:
>> On Fri, 30 May 2008 10:58:35 +0100, rainandsnow passed an empty day by
>> writing:
>> 
>>> rainandsnow wrote:
>>>> kkm@w3.to wrote:
>>>>> In article , rainandsnow
>>>>> <therainand snow@NOTTHISBITyahoo.co.uk> writes
>>>>>> Thanks for your advice to pay up at the moment. I suppose that does
>>>>>> seem the sensible option now but I'm surprised at being cut off
>>>>>> after the charimans office said they would look into it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> After 7 engineer visits in 15 working days, my BT Broadband problems
>>>>> were unresolved. In that time I had six different engineers turn up,
>>>>> and it was clear to me, that for what ever reason, they had no
>>>>> knowledge of the other engineer visits.
>>>>>
>>>>> Each visit (apart from the last when the 1st engineer turned up
>>>>> again) was the same, the engineer had been briefed that the fault
>>>>> was due to my equipment, plugged something into my wall socket then
>>>>> pronounced the problem was actually at the exchange, fixed it, and
>>>>> my DSL service would then work up to about 6pm and then cut out
>>>>> again.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wrote a letter to Jillian Lewis, BT's Director of Customer
>>>>> Services. A lady phoned me back and said they were looking into it
>>>>> for me. Two months later, a jolly chap with a very posh voice phoned
>>>>> me and said he'd noticed I'd not had a problem for two months and
>>>>> how delighted I must be with BT that everything was working
>>>>> excellently.
>>>>>
>>>>> He was however a bit deflated when I explained that it was the man
>>>>> from Virgin Media who had fixed my broadband woes, and that my
>>>>> broadband from BT had officially been ceased for a month when he
>>>>> phoned. Internal communications or the lack of them within BT are
>>>>> unbelievably bad !!
>>>> Lack of communication *may* be relevant here - my phone was switched
>>>> on again yesterday evening after being off all afternoon!
>>>>
>>>> I had responded to the recent letter warning I'd be cut off by faxing
>>>> and emailing the Office of the Chairman in the morning expressing
>>>> surprise at having received the warning when they had told me the
>>>> matter was being looked into.
>>>>
>>>> It seems reasonable to have concluded that it was cut off, rather
>>>> than it being a fault for the following reasons:
>>>>
>>>> 1) Had received a written warning this would happen if I didn't pay
>>>> immediately (written on 22nd and arrived 27th) 2) Broadband still
>>>> working
>>>> 3) Line not dead - white noise but no dialling tone.
>>>>
>>>> So now I can only presume that the Office of the Chairman reversed
>>>> the decision to cut me off - and will now have to wait to see what
>>>> their expected written reply says.
>>>>
>>>> I expect that, horrified by their abominable behaviour they are now
>>>> going to offer me free unlimited broadband for life, fire all the
>>>> staff who didn't bother to look into my case, close down their
>>>> foreign call centres and reveiew all decisions relating to all UK
>>>> disputed call out charges over the past two years . . . or am I being
>>>> naive?
>>>
>>> Yes I was. I've had an email apologising for any inconvenience and
>>> informing me that as a goodwill gesture they have credited my account
>>> with the amount . . . good news, but I'm not happy that I've had this
>>> hanging over my head for 18 week and have had to communicate with them
>>> at least 16 times about it.
>> 
>> And I expect very soon your old noisy fault will be back again and once
>> more the BT roundabout begins to spin.
> 
> I've asked the Chairman's Office for advice concerning this possibility.
Let us all know when you get a reply. . . .