Anyone else notice the bizarre notion that this is already
London's wettest August since 1917, which underpinned
a feature on "London Tonight" tonight?

At Hampstead the month's total to date is 45mm ... still well
short of 2007, 2006, 2005, 2004, 2002, 2001, 2000, etc,etc!

Philip

"Philip Eden" wrote...
> Anyone else notice the bizarre notion that this is already
> London's wettest August since 1917, which underpinned
> a feature on "London Tonight" tonight?
>
> At Hampstead the month's total to date is 45mm ... still well
> short of 2007, 2006, 2005, 2004, 2002, 2001, 2000, etc,etc!


... oh dear; still, mustn't let the facts get in the way of a good 
story.

Martin.


-- 
Martin Rowley
West Moors, East Dorset (UK): 17m (56ft) amsl
Lat: 50.82N   Long: 01.88W
NGR: SU 082 023

in 35831 20080818 191540 "Philip Eden" <philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom> wrote:
>Anyone else notice the bizarre notion that this is already
>London's wettest August since 1917, which underpinned
>a feature on "London Tonight" tonight?
>
>At Hampstead the month's total to date is 45mm ... still well
>short of 2007, 2006, 2005, 2004, 2002, 2001, 2000, etc,etc!
>
>Philip

There's more than one way of measuring "wettest". 
Like amount of time when something is falling or has just fallen.
My lawn is dry enough to mow about once every 5-6 days.

Bob Martin wrote:
> in 35831 20080818 191540 "Philip Eden" <philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom> wrote:
>> Anyone else notice the bizarre notion that this is already
>> London's wettest August since 1917, which underpinned
>> a feature on "London Tonight" tonight?
>>
>> At Hampstead the month's total to date is 45mm ... still well
>> short of 2007, 2006, 2005, 2004, 2002, 2001, 2000, etc,etc!
>>
>> Philip
> 
> There's more than one way of measuring "wettest". 
> Like amount of time when something is falling or has just fallen.
> My lawn is dry enough to mow about once every 5-6 days.

I've had 9 August's wetter (so far) since 1978 here at Southend-on-Sea.

-- 
Keith (Southend)
http://www.southendweather.net
e-mail: kreh at southendweather dot net

I'm approaching 90mm of rain this month, not too far from Copely. The
overwhelming impression this summer is of 'dullness'. I can't remember
the last sunny day we had, and it's rained every day this month, bar
one. Here in Ferryhill, Summer (June, July, August) is already wetter
than last year. Temperatures are still above long term means though.
August's high so far is only 21.3 degC on the 6th.

Dave (Ferryhill)
http://www.ferryhillweather.co.uk

Keith (Southend) wrote:
> Bob Martin wrote:
> > in 35831 20080818 191540 "Philip Eden" <philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom> wrote:
> >> Anyone else notice the bizarre notion that this is already
> >> London's wettest August since 1917, which underpinned
> >> a feature on "London Tonight" tonight?
> >>
> >> At Hampstead the month's total to date is 45mm ... still well
> >> short of 2007, 2006, 2005, 2004, 2002, 2001, 2000, etc,etc!
> >>
> >> Philip
> >
> > There's more than one way of measuring "wettest".
> > Like amount of time when something is falling or has just fallen.
> > My lawn is dry enough to mow about once every 5-6 days.
>
> I've had 9 August's wetter (so far) since 1978 here at Southend-on-Sea.
>
> --
> Keith (Southend)
> http://www.southendweather.net
> e-mail: kreh at southendweather dot net

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 07:22:08 GMT, Bob Martin wrote:

> in 35831 20080818 191540 "Philip Eden" <philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom> wrote:
>>Anyone else notice the bizarre notion that this is already
>>London's wettest August since 1917, which underpinned
>>a feature on "London Tonight" tonight?
>>
>>At Hampstead the month's total to date is 45mm ... still well
>>short of 2007, 2006, 2005, 2004, 2002, 2001, 2000, etc,etc!
>>
>>Philip
> 
> There's more than one way of measuring "wettest". 
> Like amount of time when something is falling or has just fallen.
> My lawn is dry enough to mow about once every 5-6 days.

Wettest must mean the most rainfall; your experience could perhaps be
better described by working out the average humidity for a month or other
period of time. If the humidity is high then wet grass takes longer to dry.

As an illustration the figure for June in St Albans was 72% and July 67%
with respective total rainfall amounts of 35mm and 79mm. 



Alan Gardiner
Chiswell Green, St Albans
101m ASL
19/08/2008 10:18:49

Johnny Walker of Radio 2 fame announced this morning that it's been the 
wettest August for nearly a hundred years , and the Bank Holiday weekend 
would be hot ,i.e. 27c and sunny !
No that didn't come from the Daily Express but the Met Office he said.
Makes  you wonder why we all bother......


RonB

.
"Alan Gardiner"  wrote in message 
news:bamzi9x7sv5g.5n3cknpx6x7x.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 07:22:08 GMT, Bob Martin wrote:
>
>> in 35831 20080818 191540 "Philip Eden" <philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom> 
>> wrote:
>>>Anyone else notice the bizarre notion that this is already
>>>London's wettest August since 1917, which underpinned
>>>a feature on "London Tonight" tonight?
>>>
>>>At Hampstead the month's total to date is 45mm ... still well
>>>short of 2007, 2006, 2005, 2004, 2002, 2001, 2000, etc,etc!
>>>
>>>Philip
>>
>> There's more than one way of measuring "wettest".
>> Like amount of time when something is falling or has just fallen.
>> My lawn is dry enough to mow about once every 5-6 days.
>
> Wettest must mean the most rainfall; your experience could perhaps be
> better described by working out the average humidity for a month or other
> period of time. If the humidity is high then wet grass takes longer to 
> dry.
>
> As an illustration the figure for June in St Albans was 72% and July 67%
> with respective total rainfall amounts of 35mm and 79mm.
>
>
>
> Alan Gardiner
> Chiswell Green, St Albans
> 101m ASL
> 19/08/2008 10:18:49

"Bob Martin"  wrote:
> in 35831 20080818 191540 "Philip Eden"  wrote:

>>Anyone else notice the bizarre notion that this is already
>>London's wettest August since 1917, which underpinned
>>a feature on "London Tonight" tonight?
>>
>>At Hampstead the month's total to date is 45mm ... still well
>>short of 2007, 2006, 2005, 2004, 2002, 2001, 2000, etc,etc!
>
> There's more than one way of measuring "wettest".
> Like amount of time when something is falling or has just fallen.
> My lawn is dry enough to mow about once every 5-6 days.

The convention for making historical comparisons at
individual sites and over geographical areas is rainfall amount.
This is because this measurement has been made more
widely and over a longer period than any other, but it does
also approximate rather more closely to the meaning of the
word "wettest" than any of the other parameters. The likelihood
that any statistic, right or wrong, flying around yesterday did
not refer to rainfall amount is vanishingly small.

You say that there are other ways of measuring "wetness".
Indeed there are. There's rainfall duration, rainfall duration
above specific thresholds, rainfall intensity, geographical
extent of rainfall, geographical extent of rainfall above
specific thresholds, number of days with rain, number of days
with rain above specific thresholds, volume of rain over
a specific area, volume of rain over individual drainage
catchments, return periods of a variety of parameters, and
so on. I use them often.

By the way, I'm pleased to see that you are a convert
to measuring things. [Insert smiley if required]

Philip

in 35866 20080819 115414 "Philip Eden" <philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom> wrote:
>"Bob Martin"  wrote:
>> in 35831 20080818 191540 "Philip Eden"  wrote:
>
>>>Anyone else notice the bizarre notion that this is already
>>>London's wettest August since 1917, which underpinned
>>>a feature on "London Tonight" tonight?
>>>
>>>At Hampstead the month's total to date is 45mm ... still well
>>>short of 2007, 2006, 2005, 2004, 2002, 2001, 2000, etc,etc!
>>
>> There's more than one way of measuring "wettest".
>> Like amount of time when something is falling or has just fallen.
>> My lawn is dry enough to mow about once every 5-6 days.
>
>The convention for making historical comparisons at
>individual sites and over geographical areas is rainfall amount.
>This is because this measurement has been made more
>widely and over a longer period than any other, but it does
>also approximate rather more closely to the meaning of the
>word "wettest" than any of the other parameters. The likelihood
>that any statistic, right or wrong, flying around yesterday did
>not refer to rainfall amount is vanishingly small.
>
>You say that there are other ways of measuring "wetness".
>Indeed there are. There's rainfall duration, rainfall duration
>above specific thresholds, rainfall intensity, geographical
>extent of rainfall, geographical extent of rainfall above
>specific thresholds, number of days with rain, number of days
>with rain above specific thresholds, volume of rain over
>a specific area, volume of rain over individual drainage
>catchments, return periods of a variety of parameters, and
>so on. I use them often.
>
>By the way, I'm pleased to see that you are a convert
>to measuring things. [Insert smiley if required]
>
>Philip

Haha!

As you're the one with all the figures, how many days in the last month has
rain not fallen on central southern England.

"Bob Martin" wrote...
<sniplots>
> how many days in the last month has
> rain not fallen on central southern England.

... I'll answer with data for Hurn (and also for us nearby in West 
Moors), as I regard this area as part of the BBC 'banned' CS England: 
in the month of August, every climatological period 09-09Z has been 
credited with some PPN, though 4 of them were 'trace' returns, and one 
a single 'bucket tip' of 0.2 mm.

The total rainfall so far at Hurn = 67 mm (~ 128% of 71-00 LTA) and 
total here in West Moors is 62 mm.

Last year (2007), Hurn had 44 mm .. my gauge not up and running at 
that time.

The wettest August in the Hurn record (starts 1957 from Met O site), 
is 131.5 mm in 1963.

Martin.

-- 
Martin Rowley
West Moors, East Dorset (UK): 17m (56ft) amsl
Lat: 50.82N   Long: 01.88W
NGR: SU 082 023

in 35870 20080819 132811 "Martin Rowley"  wrote:
>"Bob Martin" wrote...
><sniplots>
>> how many days in the last month has
>> rain not fallen on central southern England.
>
>.... I'll answer with data for Hurn (and also for us nearby in West
>Moors), as I regard this area as part of the BBC 'banned' CS England:
>in the month of August, every climatological period 09-09Z has been
>credited with some PPN, though 4 of them were 'trace' returns, and one
>a single 'bucket tip' of 0.2 mm.
>
>The total rainfall so far at Hurn = 67 mm (~ 128% of 71-00 LTA) and
>total here in West Moors is 62 mm.
>
>Last year (2007), Hurn had 44 mm .. my gauge not up and running at
>that time.
>
>The wettest August in the Hurn record (starts 1957 from Met O site),
>is 131.5 mm in 1963.
>
>Martin.
>
>--
>Martin Rowley
>West Moors, East Dorset (UK): 17m (56ft) amsl
>Lat: 50.82N   Long: 01.88W
>NGR: SU 082 023

Thanks, Martin.  The point I'm trying (very unsuccessfully) to make is that in simple figures
a day where it rains lightly from 8am to 8pm is much the same as a day which has a single
heavy downpour at 10pm, but to people at airshows, watching cricket, sitting on a beach
or just trying to do a bit of gardening, the first is a washout whereas the second doesn't
matter much.  And it has been a summer of washed-out airshows, rained-off cricket and
ruined holidays.

On Aug 19, 10:51 am, "ronaldbutton"  wrote:
> Johnny Walker of Radio 2 fame announced this morning that it's been the
> wettest August for nearly a hundred years , and the Bank Holiday weekend
> would be hot ,i.e. 27c and sunny !

Not impossible looking at the 0000 GFS, admittedly less so for the
0600.

Nick

"Bob Martin"  wrote :
> The point I'm trying (very unsuccessfully) to make is that in simple 
> figures
> a day where it rains lightly from 8am to 8pm is much the same as a day 
> which has a single
> heavy downpour at 10pm, but to people at airshows, watching cricket, 
> sitting on a beach
> or just trying to do a bit of gardening, the first is a washout whereas 
> the second doesn't
> matter much.  And it has been a summer of washed-out airshows, rained-off 
> cricket and
> ruined holidays.

On the contrary, you are getting your point across well. It is
the rest of us who are failing to get through.  Let me try another
way.

What I am trying to say is that, sure, this is a wet, cloudy,
unsettled month, but it is entirely typical of wet, cloudy, unsettled
summer months of which there have been scores over the years.
These are what synoptic climatologists would recognise as
"cyclonic" months ... mean monthly sea-level pressure well
below the long-term average. For instance, since 1873, 27 of the
135 Augusts (exactly 20%) had a mean pressure over the British
Isles more than 3 millibars below average, most recently in 2004.

The important point which I have not got across so far is
that -- almost without exception -- these cyclonic months
provide us with a combination of below-average daytime
temperature, above-average rainfall amount, above-average
rainfall duration, and below-average sunshine duration. You
simply can't say that this month is exceptional because of the
combination of these various parameters, because in a
cyclonic summer month it is usual to have such a combination.

I will make some comparisons, but forgive me if I wait until
the end of the month, otherwise we get into the daft situation
of the TV weather presenter who, after 10 wet days at the
beginning of July this year said, "If it stays as wet as this for
the rest of the month it will be the wettest July on record."

Philip

"Bob Martin"  wrote:
>
> As you're the one with all the figures, how many days in the last month 
> has
> rain not fallen on central southern England.

Let me answer a slightly different question, and I will use data for
Hampstead, in London, as I have daily records handy for this site.
You will have to trust me that the figures won't be materially
different from your part of the country.

Between July 20 and August 19 there were 16 days with
0.2mm or more, and there were 13 days with 1.0mm or more.
The long-term means are, for July 14 and 9 respectively, and
for August 15 and 10 respectively.  In 1985, between the
same dates, there were 23 days >0.2mm, and 18 days >1.0mm.
During the calendar month of August 1912 there were 24 days
>0.2mm and 23 days >1.0mm.

Here's some more data:
So far this August at Hampstead the number of clock-hours
during which rain has fallen (0.2mm or more) stands at 53,
which is an average of 2.8 per day.

For the whole of August in earlier years the totals were:
2007   64h, which is 2.1 h/day
2006   71h, which is 2.3 h/day
2005   62h, which is 2.0 h/day
2004   93h, which is 3.0 h/day

Philip

Philip Eden wrote:

> "Bob Martin"  wrote :
> > The point I'm trying (very unsuccessfully) to make is that in
> > simple  figures a day where it rains lightly from 8am to 8pm is
> > much the same as a day  which has a single heavy downpour at 10pm,
> > but to people at airshows, watching cricket,  sitting on a beach or
> > just trying to do a bit of gardening, the first is a washout
> > whereas  the second doesn't matter much.  And it has been a summer
> > of washed-out airshows, rained-off  cricket and ruined holidays.
> 
> On the contrary, you are getting your point across well. It is
> the rest of us who are failing to get through.  Let me try another
> way.
> 
> What I am trying to say is that, sure, this is a wet, cloudy,
> unsettled month, but it is entirely typical of wet, cloudy, unsettled
> summer months of which there have been scores over the years.
> These are what synoptic climatologists would recognise as
> "cyclonic" months ... mean monthly sea-level pressure well
> below the long-term average. For instance, since 1873, 27 of the
> 135 Augusts (exactly 20%) had a mean pressure over the British
> Isles more than 3 millibars below average, most recently in 2004.
> 
> The important point which I have not got across so far is
> that -- almost without exception -- these cyclonic months
> provide us with a combination of below-average daytime
> temperature, above-average rainfall amount, above-average
> rainfall duration, and below-average sunshine duration. You
> simply can't say that this month is exceptional because of the
> combination of these various parameters, because in a
> cyclonic summer month it is usual to have such a combination.

As I pointed out in another thread, if we didn't get a fair sprinkling
of months like this the averages would be rather different. I agree
with Philip that this month is turning out to be very typical of a
cyclonically dominated summer month. It is very much part of what might
be considered to be the "normal" range of weather experienced in this
country. I know I'm in the minority on here, but I have found this
month's weather to be very pleasant. I can do things out of doors
without getting into a lather of sweat and I've seldom been rained on.

Norman
-- 
Norman Lynagh
Chalfont St Giles, Buckinghamshire
85m a.s.l.
(remove "thisbit" twice to e-mail)

On Aug 18, 7:15 pm, "Philip Eden" <philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom>
wrote:
> Anyone else notice the bizarre notion that this is already
> London's wettest August since 1917, which underpinned
> a feature on "London Tonight" tonight?
>
> At Hampstead the month's total to date is 45mm ... still well
> short of 2007, 2006, 2005, 2004, 2002, 2001, 2000, etc,etc!
>
> Philip

     My blokey pub mates weren't fooled and they're not educated in
the ways of the weather.  One of them said "It hasn't been wet - it's
been all right, this month".   Another said he thought it referred to
Northern Ireland (or something) and I confirmed it for him.  In vino
veritas.  In mediam testiculi.

Tudor Hughes, Warlingham, Surrey.

"Tudor Hughes"  wrote:

>  In vino veritas.  In mediam testiculi.

LOL

pe

On Aug 20, 3:27 pm, Tudor Hughes  wrote:
> On Aug 18, 7:15 pm, "Philip Eden" <philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom>
> wrote:
>
> > Anyone else notice the bizarre notion that this is already
> > London's wettest August since 1917, which underpinned
> > a feature on "London Tonight" tonight?
>
> > At Hampstead the month's total to date is 45mm ... still well
> > short of 2007, 2006, 2005, 2004, 2002, 2001, 2000, etc,etc!
>
> > Philip
>
>      My blokey pub mates weren't fooled and they're not educated in
> the ways of the weather.  One of them said "It hasn't been wet - it's
> been all right, this month".   Another said he thought it referred to
> Northern Ireland (or something) and I confirmed it for him.  In vino
> veritas.  In mediam testiculi.
>
> Tudor Hughes, Warlingham, Surrey.

That's the thing, the perception depends what sort of weather an
individual "likes" or "dislikes". If one's most intense dislike is
torrential downpours, then this month will probably end up OK, however
if one dislikes a lack of sunny and warm days, then it will be
decidedly disappointing in certain parts of the country.

Nick

On Aug 18, 7:15 pm, "Philip Eden" <philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom>
wrote:
> Anyone else notice the bizarre notion that this is already
> London's wettest August since 1917, which underpinned
> a feature on "London Tonight" tonight?
>
> At Hampstead the month's total to date is 45mm ... still well
> short of 2007, 2006, 2005, 2004, 2002, 2001, 2000, etc,etc!

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages/images.php3?img_id=18119

in 35927 20080820 134330 "Philip Eden" <philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom> wrote:
>"Bob Martin"  wrote :
>> The point I'm trying (very unsuccessfully) to make is that in simple
>> figures
>> a day where it rains lightly from 8am to 8pm is much the same as a day
>> which has a single
>> heavy downpour at 10pm, but to people at airshows, watching cricket,
>> sitting on a beach
>> or just trying to do a bit of gardening, the first is a washout whereas
>> the second doesn't
>> matter much.  And it has been a summer of washed-out airshows, rained-off
>> cricket and
>> ruined holidays.
>
>On the contrary, you are getting your point across well. It is
>the rest of us who are failing to get through.  Let me try another
>way.
>
>What I am trying to say is that, sure, this is a wet, cloudy,
>unsettled month, but it is entirely typical of wet, cloudy, unsettled
>summer months of which there have been scores over the years.
>These are what synoptic climatologists would recognise as
>"cyclonic" months ... mean monthly sea-level pressure well
>below the long-term average. For instance, since 1873, 27 of the
>135 Augusts (exactly 20%) had a mean pressure over the British
>Isles more than 3 millibars below average, most recently in 2004.
>
>The important point which I have not got across so far is
>that -- almost without exception -- these cyclonic months
>provide us with a combination of below-average daytime
>temperature, above-average rainfall amount, above-average
>rainfall duration, and below-average sunshine duration. You
>simply can't say that this month is exceptional because of the
>combination of these various parameters, because in a
>cyclonic summer month it is usual to have such a combination.
>
>I will make some comparisons, but forgive me if I wait until
>the end of the month, otherwise we get into the daft situation
>of the TV weather presenter who, after 10 wet days at the
>beginning of July this year said, "If it stays as wet as this for
>the rest of the month it will be the wettest July on record."
>
>Philip

When you've quite finished trying to show how dim-witted I am, let's 
just start again.  I said that I (like most people) prefer warm, dry sunny weather
and that there had been precious little of it this year.  You seem determined
to prove that this isn't so, yet : 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2481464/Devon-tourist-chiefs-say-gloomy-weather-forecasts-keep-away-visitors.html

Last 2 paras:
"Philip Eden, the Daily Telegraph weatherman, added: "I think they may have shot 
themselves in the foot with this excuse. If you look at the facts Devon and Cornwall 
have had a bad July even compared with normal.

"It was twice as wet as average and temperatures have been well below the normal."

"Bob Martin"  wrote:

> When you've quite finished trying to show how dim-witted I am, let's
> just start again.  I said that I (like most people) prefer warm, dry sunny 
> weather
> and that there had been precious little of it this year.  You seem 
> determined
> to prove that this isn't so <snip>

Not so. And not so. I am sorry you find my efforts to place
this month's weather in a proper historical and statistical context
so personally offensive. This thread is about a feature on a
television news programme, not about you.

Philip