On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 17:32:44 +0000, catofsteel@mac.com (The Stainless
Steel Cat) wrote:

>In article ,
>wensleydale@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil Williams) wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 16:59:41 +0000, rail 
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Om MPs salaries they can no longer afford to live in London!
>>
>>On £65K, even with no additional "expenses", it is certainly possible
>>to live in London.  Not lavishly, but certainly reasonably.
>
>At more than twice the average UK salary, I should think so too. Add in the
>GBP400 per month food "subsistence" allowance and it certainly sounds
>lavish to me.


If you think that you are going to attract enough people with the
right blend of abilities to run the country while offering a salary of
a mere £65k per year, you are way out of touch.  I am disgusted with
MPs who have milked the expensive system, but recognise that we need
the right salary to attract the right people.

Obviously, you would also end up paying the same generous salary to
the incompetent ex-trade unionists, the has-been ex-teachers and out
of touch ex-local councillors, plus the failures of all kinds who make
up the Labour Party contingent, but hey!  No one forces you to vote
for them.  ;-)

Bruce twisted the electrons to say:
> If you think that you are going to attract enough people with the
> right blend of abilities to run the country while offering a salary of
> a mere £65k per year, you are way out of touch.  I am disgusted with
> MPs who have milked the expensive system, but recognise that we need
> the right salary to attract the right people.

Really?  Seems to me that the UK could find any number of people who
would sign their name where indicated and vote whichever way the party
whip told them to, and for a much lower salary than #65k.  AFAICS those
seem to be the only requirements for being a back bencher ...

In fact, wasn't it one of the government's arguments during the last
strike by firefighters that they didn't deserve a big payrise because
there where lots of applicants for each vacancy?  Perhaps we should apply
that logic to MPs?  No shortage of applicants certainly applies ...

Of course, if said backbencher does actually do a fine job for his/her
constituents there's nothing to stop said constituents giving them extra
cash ...
-- 
These opinions might not even be mine ...
Let alone connected with my employer ...

Alistair Gunn wrote:

> wasn't it one of the government's arguments during the last
> strike by firefighters that they didn't deserve a big payrise because
> there where lots of applicants for each vacancy?  Perhaps we should apply
> that logic to MPs?  No shortage of applicants certainly applies ...

Typically half a dozen per vacancy (MPs) is a bit different from scores
or even hundreds in some parts of the jobs market.
-- 
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9628976.html
(08 609 at Leicester, 3 Sep 1979)

Am Sun, 1 Nov 2009 19:24:23 UTC,  schrieb Bruce 
  auf uk.railway :

> If you think that you are going to attract enough people with the
> right blend of abilities to run the country while offering a salary of
> a mere £65k per year, you are way out of touch.  I am disgusted with
> MPs who have milked the expensive system, but recognise that we need
> the right salary to attract the right people.

  You want to hire Richard Bowker, Brian Souter, Richard Branson, the 
CEOs of Barclays Bank etc to "run the country", don't you? 


Cheers,
L.W. 

---------------------------------------------------------------

"Chris  Tolley" <cj.tolley@bogus.co.uk (ukonline really)> wrote in message 
news:1l1c2klz4k1gz.mxmiuczmavtd.dlg@40tude.net...
> Alistair Gunn wrote:
>
>> wasn't it one of the government's arguments during the last
>> strike by firefighters that they didn't deserve a big payrise because
>> there where lots of applicants for each vacancy?  Perhaps we should apply
>> that logic to MPs?  No shortage of applicants certainly applies ...
>
> Typically half a dozen per vacancy (MPs) is a bit different from scores
> or even hundreds in some parts of the jobs market.

That's after the parties have whittled down the many applicants to the 
shortlist to put before the electorate.

Peter

Peter Masson wrote:

> "Chris  Tolley" <cj.tolley@bogus.co.uk (ukonline really)> wrote in message 
> news:1l1c2klz4k1gz.mxmiuczmavtd.dlg@40tude.net...
>> Alistair Gunn wrote:
>>
>>> wasn't it one of the government's arguments during the last
>>> strike by firefighters that they didn't deserve a big payrise because
>>> there where lots of applicants for each vacancy?  Perhaps we should apply
>>> that logic to MPs?  No shortage of applicants certainly applies ...
>>
>> Typically half a dozen per vacancy (MPs) is a bit different from scores
>> or even hundreds in some parts of the jobs market.
> 
> That's after the parties have whittled down the many applicants to the 
> shortlist to put before the electorate.

True, but there's nothing (apart from the need to raise the deposit)
preventing any or all of them standing in the actual election, so one
presumes that effectively the preselection is the equivalent of talking
over the idea of applying for a job with someone and then not doing so.

-- 
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p13309771.html
(43 049 at London Paddington, 29 Nov 1980)

On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 14:02:10 +0000 someone who may be Chris  Tolley
<cj.tolley@bogus.co.uk (ukonline really)> wrote this:-

>>> Typically half a dozen per vacancy (MPs) is a bit different from scores
>>> or even hundreds in some parts of the jobs market.
>> 
>> That's after the parties have whittled down the many applicants to the 
>> shortlist to put before the electorate.
>
>True, but there's nothing (apart from the need to raise the deposit)
>preventing any or all of them standing in the actual election,

They would also need to raise all the money and the people for the
campaign. It can be done, for example Martin Bell did it, but
political parties provide an easier supply of money and people [1].
It may not supply all of both and the candidate may need to
contribute more than just their time and effort, but representing
one of the large parties has many advantages.


[1] though obviously this depends on the relative strength. I am
told that conservative parties, having dwindled to almost nothing,
are on the rise again, while labour parties are shrinking to a rump.



-- 
  David Hansen, Edinburgh 
 I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
 http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/ukpga_20000023_en_8#pt3-pb3-l1g54

David Hansen wrote:

> I am
> told that conservative parties, having dwindled to almost nothing,
> are on the rise again, while labour parties are shrinking to a rump.

I simply cannot imagine why I would want to join a political 
party. What good would it do me? There are many other ways to 
make friends.

Charlie

David Hansen wrote:

> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 14:02:10 +0000 someone who may be Chris  Tolley
> <cj.tolley@bogus.co.uk (ukonline really)> wrote this:-
> 
>>>> Typically half a dozen per vacancy (MPs) is a bit different from scores
>>>> or even hundreds in some parts of the jobs market.
>>> 
>>> That's after the parties have whittled down the many applicants to the 
>>> shortlist to put before the electorate.
>>
>>True, but there's nothing (apart from the need to raise the deposit)
>>preventing any or all of them standing in the actual election,
> 
> They would also need to raise all the money and the people for the
> campaign.

I find that it is often the case that the first time I am aware of the
names of some of the candidates is when I read the ballot paper. Not
everyone does the campaigning thing.

-- 
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p12198509.html
(08 588 at Wolverhampton, 1979)

On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 15:05:41 +0000, Charlie Hulme
 wrote:
>David Hansen wrote:
>
>> I am
>> told that conservative parties, having dwindled to almost nothing,
>> are on the rise again, while labour parties are shrinking to a rump.
>
>I simply cannot imagine why I would want to join a political 
>party. What good would it do me? There are many other ways to 
>make friends.


Surely the main reason people join a political party is to make a
difference?  Or contribute in some small way to that party making a
difference, by changing the country for the better?

There is a social dimension too, but I don't imagine many people would
choose which of the political parties to join on that basis.  Although
I must admit, when I was much younger, the Conservative Club always
seemed to attract the best-looking young women.  ;-)

On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 18:00:14 +0000 someone who may be Roland Perry
 wrote this:-

>You join them in order to participate in politics.

Party politics.

One doesn't have to be a member of a political party to participate
in politics. Indeed the number of members of political parties is
very small indeed compared to the number participating in politics.



-- 
  David Hansen, Edinburgh 
 I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
 http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/ukpga_20000023_en_8#pt3-pb3-l1g54

On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 15:05:41 +0000 someone who may be Charlie Hulme
 wrote this:-

>I simply cannot imagine why I would want to join a political 
>party. What good would it do me?

Some people join them because they want to help others. Seems a good
reason to me.



-- 
  David Hansen, Edinburgh 
 I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
 http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/ukpga_20000023_en_8#pt3-pb3-l1g54

David Hansen wrote:

> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 15:05:41 +0000 someone who may be Charlie Hulme
>  wrote this:-
> 
>> I simply cannot imagine why I would want to join a political 
>> party. What good would it do me?
> 
> Some people join them because they want to help others. Seems a good
> reason to me.
> 

How does it help others? Help others post election leaflets, you 
mean?

Charlie

Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <%yCHm.33972$Dl6.11948@newsfe16.ams2>, at 15:05:41 on Mon, 2 
> Nov 2009, Charlie Hulme  remarked:
>>> I am
>>> told that conservative parties, having dwindled to almost nothing,
>>> are on the rise again, while labour parties are shrinking to a rump.
>>
>> I simply cannot imagine why I would want to join a political party. 
>> What good would it do me? There are many other ways to make friends.
> 
> You join them in order to participate in politics. 

So what good would that do me?

> Some people don't 
> participate very actively as a result, others become in effect volunteer 
> advisers in Westminster.

Anyone who writes to their MP suggesting something is a volunteer 
advisor in Westminster!

Charlie

Charlie Hulme twisted the electrons to say:
> How does it help others? Help others post election leaflets, you 
> mean?

I thought the Royal Mail did that anyway?  At least for national
elections, or have the recent strikes cost them that contract as well?
-- 
These opinions might not even be mine ...
Let alone connected with my employer ...

Charlie Hulme wrote:
> David Hansen wrote:
> 
>> I am
>> told that conservative parties, having dwindled to almost nothing,
>> are on the rise again, while labour parties are shrinking to a rump.
> 
> I simply cannot imagine why I would want to join a political party. What 
> good would it do me? There are many other ways to make friends.

A few party clubs are listed in the Good Beer Guide....

-- 
Arthur Figgis               Surrey, UK

Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <gVHHm.41963$y%.39738@newsfe29.ams2>, at 21:10:49 on Mon, 2 
> Nov 2009, Charlie Hulme  remarked:
> 
>>>>> I am
>>>>> told that conservative parties, having dwindled to almost nothing,
>>>>> are on the rise again, while labour parties are shrinking to a rump.
>>>>
>>>> I simply cannot imagine why I would want to join a political party. 
>>>> What good would it do me? There are many other ways to make friends.
>>>  You join them in order to participate in politics.
>>
>> So what good would that do me?
> 
> Some people offer to help in the absence of any immediate "good" to 
> themselves. They expect to do good for others.

That's at variance with the current public image of politics, I 
think you'll find ;-)

So not only do I work for nothing to further someone's ambition 
to be Prime Minister, I have to pay for the privilege?

(Don't answer that)

Charlie

Alistair Gunn wrote:
> Charlie Hulme twisted the electrons to say:
>> How does it help others? Help others post election leaflets, you 
>> mean?
> 
> I thought the Royal Mail did that anyway?  At least for national
> elections, or have the recent strikes cost them that contract as well?

AIUI you get one free posting, but we usually get several bits of 
paper shoved through our door from each of the main candidates, 
usually slagging off their rivals. Or tell us not to vote 
Conservative since they can't win here. (What sort of reason is 
that?)

Charlie

On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 19:52:53 +0000 someone who may be Roland Perry
 wrote this:-

>>One doesn't have to be a member of a political party to participate
>>in politics.
>
>But it's much harder.

I disagree. It is not harder or easier to stand on a cold street
running a stall for say WWF than it is to do the same thing for say
the SNP.

>>Indeed the number of members of political parties is very small indeed 
>>compared to the number participating in politics.
>
>Not at a national level.

The number of members of the organisations represented at
<http://www.stopclimatechaos.org/scottish-climate-change-rally> is
vastly higher than the number of people who are members of political
parties. I imagine that just RSPB has more members than the
political parties put together, though I take the point that many of
its members will only participate in politics if it is about our
feathered friends.

That particular lobby was outside parliament, they were lobbying the
inmates to pass a strong climate change law, which has been done.


-- 
  David Hansen, Edinburgh 
 I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
 http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/ukpga_20000023_en_8#pt3-pb3-l1g54

On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 21:06:57 +0000 someone who may be Charlie Hulme
 wrote this:-

>> Some people join them because they want to help others. Seems a good
>> reason to me.
>
>How does it help others? Help others post election leaflets, you 
>mean?

Political parties get involved in helping people in all sorts of
ways, often unglamorous. MPs and their staff are often the last
resort for people who have been treated shabbily by large
organisations. You may recall that a Hutton tried to silence
reporting of parliament recently
<http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/21/press-freedom-super-injunction-debate>


-- 
  David Hansen, Edinburgh 
 I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
 http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/ukpga_20000023_en_8#pt3-pb3-l1g54

David Hansen wrote:

> Political parties get involved in helping people in all sorts of
> ways, often unglamorous. MPs and their staff are often the last
> resort for people who have been treated shabbily by large
> organisations.

MPs such Martin Bell, for example? Yes, of course they do. But 
MPs and political parties are not the same concept.

> You may recall that a Hutton tried to silence
> reporting of parliament recently
> <http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/21/press-freedom-super-injunction-debate>

What's a Hutton?

The story you mention seems to be largely due to the 'Private 
Eye' party, which I do financially support by buying their paper.

Charlie

On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 14:47:50 +0000 someone who may be Charlie Hulme
 wrote this:-

>MPs such Martin Bell, for example? Yes, of course they do. But 
>MPs and political parties are not the same concept.

Only in a few cases, Mr Bell being one. In most cases most of the
work of an MP is done by their staff, who are members of the same
political party and have probably worked with them for years.

>What's a Hutton?

<http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1224933/Caught-CCTV-The-moment-BBC-presenter-floors-taunting-yob-karate-expertise.html>
has an example of a judge not being a Hutton:

"At the sentencing of the pair Judge David Hernandez said: 'He
defended himself, he delivered a blow. I say good for Mr Patel."




-- 
  David Hansen, Edinburgh 
 I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
 http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/ukpga_20000023_en_8#pt3-pb3-l1g54