Homes could be plunged into darkness this winter as the nation faces
the shocking prospect of power cuts.

The warning, following the release of grim industry figures yesterday,
will dredge up memories of the last electricity crisis in 1974.

Then, households had to manage with candles, factories were put on
short-time and TV broadcasts ended at 10.30pm.

The figures from the National Grid suggest that the country could be
crippled by energy shortages when the colder weather bites because
there is so little spare capacity.

The loss of only one of our 38 biggest power stations at times of high
demand could lead to breaks in supply, bringing factories to a halt
and leaving many homes in darkness.

'We should be very worried - this is reaching national crisis
proportions but the response is piecemeal and inadequate,' said the
industry watchdog.

In addition, the rising cost of power could also prompt further
'savage' hikes in families' energy bills, analysts claimed.

The National Grid figures sent the price of wholesale electricity
skyrocketing to record levels yesterday. It also focused attention on
the Government's faltering energy policy and evoked memories of the
grim period between January and March 1974 when millions endured
regular blackouts.

Last night Allan Asher, chief executive of Energywatch, warned of a
national crisis. On prices, he added: 'Consumers are being bled white
by the generators and the retailers. The outlook is for further price
shocks for consumers.' 

http://tinyurl.com/46qulz

Not exactly a good time to be thinking about widespread rail
electrification, then.  :-(

In message , Tony Polson 
 writes

>The National Grid figures sent the price of wholesale electricity 
>skyrocketing to record levels yesterday.

Whenever there are rumours of a shortage, people start panic buying.
I expect some of the bastards are hoarding cupboards full of electrons.

-- 
Goalie of the Century

Tony Polson  wrote:

[snipped]

> 
> http://tinyurl.com/46qulz
> 
> Not exactly a good time to be thinking about widespread rail
> electrification, then.  :-(

No probs, we'll have all those wonderful wind turbines.  So, the trains will
still run - on windy days at least.  So when the weather is still, all those
commuters will have to take the day off !

On 26 Sep, 01:21, Tony Polson  wrote:
> Homes could be plunged into darkness this winter as the nation faces
> the shocking prospect of power cuts.
>
> The warning, following the release of grim industry figures yesterday,
> will dredge up memories of the last electricity crisis in 1974.
>
> Then, households had to manage with candles, factories were put on
> short-time and TV broadcasts ended at 10.30pm.
>
> The figures from the National Grid suggest that the country could be
> crippled by energy shortages when the colder weather bites because
> there is so little spare capacity.
>
> The loss of only one of our 38 biggest power stations at times of high
> demand could lead to breaks in supply, bringing factories to a halt
> and leaving many homes in darkness.
>
> 'We should be very worried - this is reaching national crisis
> proportions but the response is piecemeal and inadequate,' said the
> industry watchdog.
>
> In addition, the rising cost of power could also prompt further
> 'savage' hikes in families' energy bills, analysts claimed.
>
> The National Grid figures sent the price of wholesale electricity
> skyrocketing to record levels yesterday. It also focused attention on
> the Government's faltering energy policy and evoked memories of the
> grim period between January and March 1974 when millions endured
> regular blackouts.
>
> Last night Allan Asher, chief executive of Energywatch, warned of a
> national crisis. On prices, he added: 'Consumers are being bled white
> by the generators and the retailers. The outlook is for further price
> shocks for consumers.'
>
> http://tinyurl.com/46qulz
>
> Not exactly a good time to be thinking about widespread rail
> electrification, then.  :-(

How much electricity is used by electric railways?  How much is that
as a percentage of the total generated in this country, or imported
from France?  My guess would be that it's not very much, and if we
were to reduce some of the wastage of energy we could probably save
enough to power any likely railway electrification.  Does anybody have
any figures to confirm or otherwise?

We do seem to be closing a lot of conventional power stations in
recent times, most of the '50s ones have gone, and even Didot 'A',
around 1970 I think, is closing by 2015.  Against this we seem to be
opening mainly small gas turbine or combined cycle stations.  While
there are quite a few of these now I doubt that they make up for the
reduction in capacity caused by the closure of the coal-fired and
neuclear stations.

In message , at 09:26:58 on 
Fri, 26 Sep 2008, v.meldrew@i.do.not.believe.it remarked:
>> http://tinyurl.com/46qulz
>>
>> Not exactly a good time to be thinking about widespread rail
>> electrification, then.  :-(
>
>No probs, we'll have all those wonderful wind turbines.

By this winter - that's quick !

>So, the trains will still run - on windy days at least.  So when the 
>weather is still, all those commuters will have to take the day off !

The wind power advocates say it's almost always windy somewhere in the 
country every day. That just leaves us erecting a new supergrid to 
transfer the power up and down the country.
-- 
Roland Perry

Tony Polson wrote:

> Not exactly a good time to be thinking about widespread rail
> electrification, then.  :-(

How long does it take to repair two nuclear stations? I'm
sure the two stations that are causing this "crisis" will be
back on stream long before any OHLE will be ready, even if
we started wiring now.

Two points to note: (1) you neglected to mention that the National
Grid, whose figures you are quoting, say that there's nothing
to worry about, as reserve capacity is reduced but well able to cope
with demand, and (2) when looking for this story online, the only
online news site that appeared to be carrying it was the Daily Mail.
Need I say more.

Cheers

mark-r

Roland Perry  wrote:
> In message , at 09:26:58 on 
> Fri, 26 Sep 2008, v.meldrew@i.do.not.believe.it remarked:
> >> http://tinyurl.com/46qulz
> >>
> >> Not exactly a good time to be thinking about widespread rail
> >> electrification, then.  :-(
> >
> >No probs, we'll have all those wonderful wind turbines.
> 
> By this winter - that's quick !
> 
> >So, the trains will still run - on windy days at least.  So when the 
> >weather is still, all those commuters will have to take the day off !
> 
> The wind power advocates say it's almost always windy somewhere in the 
> country every day. That just leaves us erecting a new supergrid to 
> transfer the power up and down the country.

There are times when there is not sufficient wind power so then what do you do ?
Denmark generates a high proportion of its power from wind but depends on links
with its neighbours which have hydroelectric power so it can import and export
power as required.  We don't have much hydro, unless we were to build plants in
Scotland, Wales, the Pennines etc.  There is a link across the channel but that
has limited capacity.  A professor called MacKay (sorry don't have the URL) has
done a detailed study of the energy options available to Britain.

On 26 Sep, 10:09, Mark Robinson  wrote:

> Tony Polson wrote:
> > Not exactly a good time to be thinking about widespread rail
> > electrification, then.  :-(
>
> How long does it take to repair two nuclear stations? I'm
> sure the two stations that are causing this "crisis" will be
> back on stream long before any OHLE will be ready, even if
> we started wiring now.
>
> Two points to note: (1) you neglected to mention that the National
> Grid, whose figures you are quoting, say that there's nothing
> to worry about, as reserve capacity is reduced but well able to cope
> with demand, and (2) when looking for this story online, the only
> online news site that appeared to be carrying it was the Daily Mail.
> Need I say more.
>

Could it just possible that pro-nuclear sources within government are
spinning this   issue into something of a crises - seems like a
convenient bit of timing what with the EDF purchase of British Energy
yesterday and their promise to build more nuclear power stations.
Nothing like the threat of the lights going out to concentrate the
minds of the public, even if that threat is somewhat overblown.

v.meldrew@i.do.not.believe.it wrote:
> A professor called MacKay (sorry don't have the URL) has
> done a detailed study of the energy options available to Britain.

You probably mean his book 'Without hot air' which is very good (and
downloadable):
http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/mackay/

Theo

In message , at 10:50:23 on 
Fri, 26 Sep 2008, v.meldrew@i.do.not.believe.it remarked:
>> The wind power advocates say it's almost always windy somewhere in the
>> country every day. That just leaves us erecting a new supergrid to
>> transfer the power up and down the country.
>
>There are times when there is not sufficient wind power so then what do you do ?

Apparently it's only one or two days a year (according to the wind 
enthusiasts). I suppose you'd simply notch up the rolling blackouts you 
already have, as a result of failing to start building more nuclear 
stations ten years ago.

If it really matters to you, buy a bigger UPS [I already have].
-- 
Roland Perry

Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>v.meldrew@i.do.not.believe.it wrote:
>> A professor called MacKay (sorry don't have the URL) has
>> done a detailed study of the energy options available to Britain.
>
>You probably mean his book 'Without hot air' which is very good (and
>downloadable):
>http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/mackay/


I'm not sure I would trust anyone who decorates a web site on a very
serious subject with a photo of himself in a shirt like ...

Well, just take a look yourself.  ;-)

Stephen Furley  wrote:
>
>We do seem to be closing a lot of conventional power stations in
>recent times, most of the '50s ones have gone, and even Didot 'A',
>around 1970 I think, is closing by 2015.  Against this we seem to be
>opening mainly small gas turbine or combined cycle stations.  While
>there are quite a few of these now I doubt that they make up for the
>reduction in capacity caused by the closure of the coal-fired and
>nuclear stations.


That's a pretty accurate summing-up of the problem.

The cause of the problem is that, when the electricity industry was
privatised, no part of the industry was given the responsibility to
ensure that an adequate and secure supply would always be available.

Previously, that was the responsibility of the Central Electricity
Generating Board (CEGB) which, for all its faults, did a very good job
of ensuring that there was always enough capacity to ensure security
of supply.  

Now, our electricity is supplied by many companies whose priority is
to maximise their profits.  One of the most effective ways of doing
that is to make electricity scarce so prices go up.  Of course this
scarcity means the exact opposite of security of supply, which demands
that spare capacity is held available in case of one or more power
stations having to close for technical reasons.

We now have the lowest percentage of spare capacity ever seen.  Given
that we are expecting a particularly cold winter, it will only take an
unexpected outage of one nuclear power station to put us in the
position where power cuts will be needed.

However bad the situation appears now, it will only get worse as more
nuclear stations close over the next few years.

Mizter T  wrote:

>Could it just possible that pro-nuclear sources within government are
>spinning this   issue into something of a crises


No, why would they?   The earliest a new EDF nuclear station could
come on stream is 2017, and that date is probably over-optimistic by
three or four years.

The only answer to the "power gap" is to build even more gas fired
stations and probably two coal fired stations, all of which will
produce a significant increase in our CO2 emissions.  Naturally, all
the extra gas (and probably some of the coal) will come from Russia,
that well-known paragon of international stability.

Mizter T wrote:

> Could it just possible that pro-nuclear sources within government are
> spinning this   issue into something of a crises - seems like a

More likely is that the Daily Mail has found something to wail about.
This "story" is being largely ignored outside of Mail Group
publications, which seem to see it as front page news.

Tomorrow's top story: massive increase in the number of nasty, illegal
immigrant electrons entering the country expected this winter, stealing
jobs from good, honest, hard working British electrons. Something
must be done. Think of the chiiiiiiildrun. etc, etc.

Cheers

mark-r

Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> v.meldrew@i.do.not.believe.it wrote:
> > A professor called MacKay (sorry don't have the URL) has
> > done a detailed study of the energy options available to Britain.
> 
> You probably mean his book 'Without hot air' which is very good (and
> downloadable):
> http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/mackay/
> 
> Theo

Yes, that's the one - thanks.

Roland Perry  wrote:
> In message , at 10:50:23 on 
> Fri, 26 Sep 2008, v.meldrew@i.do.not.believe.it remarked:
> >> The wind power advocates say it's almost always windy somewhere in the
> >> country every day. That just leaves us erecting a new supergrid to
> >> transfer the power up and down the country.
> >
> >There are times when there is not sufficient wind power so then what do you do ?
> 
> Apparently it's only one or two days a year (according to the wind 
> enthusiasts). 

Which is often when demand is highest (freezing fog etc.).

> I suppose you'd simply notch up the rolling blackouts you 
> already have, as a result of failing to start building more nuclear 
> stations ten years ago.
> 
> If it really matters to you, buy a bigger UPS [I already have].

Let's hope the water companies have standby power to continue to pump fresh
water to homes and to stop sewage flooding the streets.

On 26 Sep, 14:22, v.meld...@i.do.not.believe.it wrote:

> Roland Perry  wrote:
>
> > In message , at 10:50:23 on
> > Fri, 26 Sep 2008, v.meld...@i.do.not.believe.it remarked:
> > >> The wind power advocates say it's almost always windy somewhere in the
> > >> country every day. That just leaves us erecting a new supergrid to
> > >> transfer the power up and down the country.
>
> > >There are times when there is not sufficient wind power so then what do you do ?
>
> > Apparently it's only one or two days a year (according to the wind
> > enthusiasts).
>
> Which is often when demand is highest (freezing fog etc.).
>
> > I suppose you'd simply notch up the rolling blackouts you
> > already have, as a result of failing to start building more nuclear
> > stations ten years ago.
>
> > If it really matters to you, buy a bigger UPS [I already have].
>
> Let's hope the water companies have standby power to continue to pump fresh
> water to homes and to stop sewage flooding the streets.

They do.

On Sep 26, 1:13 pm, Tony Polson  wrote:
>
>
> We now have the lowest percentage of spare capacity ever seen.  Given
> that we are expecting a particularly cold winter, it will only take an
> unexpected outage of one nuclear power station to put us in the
> position where power cuts will be needed.
>

Now where did you gey that little weather snippet from Tony, because
this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7635513.stm

would seem to suggest otherwise.

Unless you also ran the Met Office at the same time you were running a
Post Office, being a civil servant and god knows what else, I know
which weather forecast I would trust more...

It makes me wonder, along with pretty much everyone else, how many of
your facts are facts, and how many you make up to entertain the rest
of the world. You are starting to come across as someone who claims to
know everything about everything, but in fact knows nothing about
anything at all, except maybe rudeness and self righteousness, both of
which would be suitable specialist subjects for you if you ever apply
to go on Mastermind...

Rich

darkprince66  wrote:
>
>You are starting to come across as someone who claims to
>know everything about everything, but in fact knows nothing about
>anything at all, except maybe rudeness and self righteousness, both of
>which would be suitable specialist subjects for you if you ever apply
>to go on Mastermind...


Pot ... kettle ...

On Sep 26, 2:50 pm, Tony Polson  wrote:
> darkprince66  wrote:
>
> >You are starting to come across as someone who claims to
> >know everything about everything, but in fact knows nothing about
> >anything at all, except maybe rudeness and self righteousness, both of
> >which would be suitable specialist subjects for you if you ever apply
> >to go on Mastermind...
>
> Pot ... kettle ...

I think you missed the word 'black' somewhere there. Case proved
really. Can't even get that right.

Noticable that you failed to respond to the point about the mild
winter though. Presumably you can't back it up...

Rich

Tony Polson  wrote:
> darkprince66  wrote:
> >
> >You are starting to come across as someone who claims to
> >know everything about everything, but in fact knows nothing about
> >anything at all, except maybe rudeness and self righteousness, both of
> >which would be suitable specialist subjects for you if you ever apply
> >to go on Mastermind...
> 
> 
> Pot ... kettle ... 

That reminds me of the description of what it takes to become an expert: one who
gets to know more and more about less and less until eventually he becomes an
expert and knows absolutely everything about nothing at all.

In message , at 14:22:09 on 
Fri, 26 Sep 2008, v.meldrew@i.do.not.believe.it remarked:
>> I suppose you'd simply notch up the rolling blackouts you
>> already have, as a result of failing to start building more nuclear
>> stations ten years ago.
>>
>> If it really matters to you, buy a bigger UPS [I already have].
>
>Let's hope the water companies have standby power to continue to pump fresh
>water to homes and to stop sewage flooding the streets.

How did those utilities cope during Ted Heath's 3 day week, and its 
rolling power cuts?
-- 
Roland Perry

In message 
, at 
07:41:22 on Fri, 26 Sep 2008, darkprince66 
 remarked:
>Noticable that you failed to respond to the point about the mild
>winter though. Presumably you can't back it up...

It's on page 3 of the same Daily Mail that's leading with the blackout 
story.
-- 
Roland Perry

Roland Perry  wrote:
> In message , at 14:22:09 on 
> Fri, 26 Sep 2008, v.meldrew@i.do.not.believe.it remarked:
> >> I suppose you'd simply notch up the rolling blackouts you
> >> already have, as a result of failing to start building more nuclear
> >> stations ten years ago.
> >>
> >> If it really matters to you, buy a bigger UPS [I already have].
> >
> >Let's hope the water companies have standby power to continue to pump fresh
> >water to homes and to stop sewage flooding the streets.
> 
> How did those utilities cope during Ted Heath's 3 day week, and its 
> rolling power cuts?

The utilities were given preference so everyone else suffered the rolling cuts.
There were many nuclear stations in those days providing for the base load.

On 26 Sep, 01:21, Tony Polson  wrote:
> Homes could be plunged into darkness this winter as the nation faces
> the shocking prospect of power cuts.
>
> The warning, following the release of grim industry figures yesterday,
> will dredge up memories of the last electricity crisis in 1974.
>
> Then, households had to manage with candles, factories were put on
> short-time and TV broadcasts ended at 10.30pm.
>
> The figures from the National Grid suggest that the country could be
> crippled by energy shortages when the colder weather bites because
> there is so little spare capacity.
>
> The loss of only one of our 38 biggest power stations at times of high
> demand could lead to breaks in supply, bringing factories to a halt
> and leaving many homes in darkness.
>
> 'We should be very worried - this is reaching national crisis
> proportions but the response is piecemeal and inadequate,' said the
> industry watchdog.
>
> In addition, the rising cost of power could also prompt further
> 'savage' hikes in families' energy bills, analysts claimed.
>
> The National Grid figures sent the price of wholesale electricity
> skyrocketing to record levels yesterday. It also focused attention on
> the Government's faltering energy policy and evoked memories of the
> grim period between January and March 1974 when millions endured
> regular blackouts.
>
> Last night Allan Asher, chief executive of Energywatch, warned of a
> national crisis. On prices, he added: 'Consumers are being bled white
> by the generators and the retailers. The outlook is for further price
> shocks for consumers.'
>
> http://tinyurl.com/46qulz
>
> Not exactly a good time to be thinking about widespread rail
> electrification, then.  :-(

On the contrary. Given the time it takes to organise, finance and do
the work, completion of generation capacity schemes and completion of
the electrification work may well coincide. And should we take scare
stories at face value?

On Sep 26, 6:41 am, darkprince66 
wrote:
> On Sep 26, 1:13 pm, Tony Polson  wrote:
>
>
>
> > We now have the lowest percentage of spare capacity ever seen.  Given
> > that we are expecting a particularly cold winter, it will only take an
> > unexpected outage of one nuclear power station to put us in the
> > position where power cuts will be needed.
>
> Now where did you gey that little weather snippet from Tony, because
> this
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7635513.stm
>
> would seem to suggest otherwise.
>
> Unless you also ran the Met Office at the same time you were running a
> Post Office, being a civil servant and god knows what else, I know
> which weather forecast I would trust more...
>
> It makes me wonder, along with pretty much everyone else, how many of
> your facts are facts, and how many you make up to entertain the rest
> of the world. You are starting to come across as someone who claims to
> know everything about everything, but in fact knows nothing about
> anything at all, except maybe rudeness and self righteousness, both of
> which would be suitable specialist subjects for you if you ever apply
> to go on Mastermind...
>
> Rich

You have captured Polson very well.  My view is that he is not a well
man.

Drill baby drill!!

On Sep 26, 7:57 am, v.meld...@i.do.not.believe.it wrote:
> Tony Polson  wrote:
> > darkprince66  wrote:
>
> > >You are starting to come across as someone who claims to
> > >know everything about everything, but in fact knows nothing about
> > >anything at all, except maybe rudeness and self righteousness, both of
> > >which would be suitable specialist subjects for you if you ever apply
> > >to go on Mastermind...
>
> > Pot ... kettle ...
>
> That reminds me of the description of what it takes to become an expert: one who
> gets to know more and more about less and less until eventually he becomes an
> expert and knows absolutely everything about nothing at all.

"Perfick"!

On 26 Sep, 15:57, v.meld...@i.do.not.believe.it wrote:
> Tony Polson  wrote:
> > darkprince66  wrote:
>
> > >You are starting to come across as someone who claims to
> > >know everything about everything, but in fact knows nothing about
> > >anything at all, except maybe rudeness and self righteousness, both of
> > >which would be suitable specialist subjects for you if you ever apply
> > >to go on Mastermind...
>
> > Pot ... kettle ...
>
> That reminds me of the description of what it takes to become an expert: one who
> gets to know more and more about less and less until eventually he becomes an
> expert and knows absolutely everything about nothing at all.

No. An expert is a drip under pressure. Mr P to a T.Pretty well
everything he spouts about is incomplete or just plain wrong and his
replies are expert ie of a drip under pressure.

"Mark Robinson"  wrote in message 
news:6k3n5rF5vd8qU1@mid.individual.net...
> Tony Polson wrote:
>

> with demand, and (2) when looking for this story online, the only
> online news site that appeared to be carrying it was the Daily Mail.
> Need I say more.
>


http://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/Article.aspx/858444?UserKey=

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601102&sid=aGecHotGlGBw&refer=uk

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?Britain_faces_winter_power_cuts_warning&in_article_id=327917&in_page_id=34

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2008/09/26/warning-of-blackouts-this-winter-115875-20753278/

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=17061

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/columnists/Bill-Carmichael-Labour--the.4531624.jp

http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Articles/308047/Keeping+the+lights+on+.htm

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/news-feed/2008/09/17/dark-days-are-ahead-86908-20739875/

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/61803/Britain-facing-blackout-crisis


The story seems to have originated from Professor Fells at Newcastle 
University / Fells Associates earlier in the month

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7618840.stm

I have not checked the Socialist Worker yet but it was certainly not just 
in the Daily Mail.

v.meldrew@i.do.not.believe.it wrote:

> That reminds me of the description of what it takes to become an expert: one who
> gets to know more and more about less and less until eventually he becomes an
> expert and knows absolutely everything about nothing at all.

Or the definition of an expert: x is the unknown factor and a spurt is a 
drip under pressure :-)
-- 
Jeremy Double  {real address, include nospam}
Rail and transport photos at
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jmdouble/collections/72157603834894248/

On Fri, 26 Sep 2008 06:41:38 -0700 (PDT), darkprince66
 wrote:

>On Sep 26, 1:13 pm, Tony Polson  wrote:
>>
>>
>> We now have the lowest percentage of spare capacity ever seen.  Given
>> that we are expecting a particularly cold winter, it will only take an
>> unexpected outage of one nuclear power station to put us in the
>> position where power cuts will be needed.
>>
>
>Now where did you gey that little weather snippet from Tony, because
>this
>
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7635513.stm
>
>would seem to suggest otherwise.

It doesn't matter what the weather does, an unexpected outage of one
nuclear power station means the national grid loses 3% of it's supply
in a couple of seconds.  Even if there is spare capacity it takes time
to start it up.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7422817.stm

v.meldrew@i.do.not.believe.it wrote:

>There were many nuclear stations in those days providing for the base load.


No, there weren't.  Only the Magnox stations were working, and they
only delivered a total of just over 4000 MWe.  The AGR stations
weren't commissioned until the late 1970s/80s, and not all of them
were working by the time of the 1983 Miners' Strike.

However, by 1983, enough of the AGR stations were working to produce
(together with the Magnox stations) something in excess of 12000 MWe,
or something over 20% of the total electricity demand.  

Coupled with the very large stocks of coal that had been built up over
the preceding couple of years at coal-fired power stations, the
nuclear contribution helped make it possible for Thatcher to break the
1983 Miners' Strike where Ted Heath had failed in 1973/4.

v.meldrew@i.do.not.believe.it wrote:

>Tony Polson  wrote:
>> darkprince66  wrote:
>> >
>> >You are starting to come across as someone who claims to
>> >know everything about everything, but in fact knows nothing about
>> >anything at all, except maybe rudeness and self righteousness, both of
>> >which would be suitable specialist subjects for you if you ever apply
>> >to go on Mastermind...
>> 
>> 
>> Pot ... kettle ... 
>
>That reminds me of the description of what it takes to become an expert: one who
>gets to know more and more about less and less until eventually he becomes an
>expert and knows absolutely everything about nothing at all.


Whereas many of the trainspotters here probably know lots about their
favourite trains but less than nothing about the real world and what
makes it work.

On Sep 26, 10:18 pm, Tony Polson  wrote:
> v.meld...@i.do.not.believe.it wrote:
> >Tony Polson  wrote:
> >> darkprince66  wrote:
>
> >> >You are starting to come across as someone who claims to
> >> >know everything about everything, but in fact knows nothing about
> >> >anything at all, except maybe rudeness and self righteousness, both of
> >> >which would be suitable specialist subjects for you if you ever apply
> >> >to go on Mastermind...
>
> >> Pot ... kettle ...
>
> >That reminds me of the description of what it takes to become an expert: one who
> >gets to know more and more about less and less until eventually he becomes an
> >expert and knows absolutely everything about nothing at all.
>
> Whereas many of the trainspotters here probably know lots about their
> favourite trains but less than nothing about the real world and what
> makes it work.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

OTOH I may just know rather more about the real world by the fact of
living in it. Something I find unlikely to be true about you...

Rich

Roland Perry wrote:

> How did those utilities cope during Ted Heath's 3 day week, and its 
> rolling power cuts?

More to the point, how did the electrified railway cope?

Cheers

mark-r

MB wrote:

> The story seems to have originated from Professor Fells at Newcastle 
> University / Fells Associates earlier in the month

You're mixing up two stories. The Fells report warns of a crisis within
5-10 years because of underinvestment. Polson has already started
another thread about that one. This thread was referring to a report
from the National Grid warning of blackout this winter because of
poor scheduling of planned maintenance.

Most of the links you posted were referring to the Fells report. A few
of them, notably the mirror one, were referring to the National Grid
report, but no source that I checked on Friday was running it as
front page material like the printed Metro (I didn't see the printed
Mail, but the online edition had a prominent link). Most of Friday's
other papers were leading with the US bail out story.

The other story, i.e. the Fells report, highlights a serious problem
facing the country. This story is just scaremongering based on what
amounts to little more than a memo from National Grid to the
generators suggesting that they might consider rescheduling some
shutdowns.

Cheers

mark-r

On Sep 26, 2:29 pm, Mizter T  wrote:
> On 26 Sep, 14:22, v.meld...@i.do.not.believe.it wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Roland Perry  wrote:
>
> > > In message , at 10:50:23 on
> > > Fri, 26 Sep 2008, v.meld...@i.do.not.believe.it remarked:
> > > >> The wind power advocates say it's almost always windy somewhere in the
> > > >> country every day. That just leaves us erecting a new supergrid to
> > > >> transfer the power up and down the country.
>
> > > >There are times when there is not sufficient wind power so then what do you do ?
>
> > > Apparently it's only one or two days a year (according to the wind
> > > enthusiasts).
>
> > Which is often when demand is highest (freezing fog etc.).
>
> > > I suppose you'd simply notch up the rolling blackouts you
> > > already have, as a result of failing to start building more nuclear
> > > stations ten years ago.
>
> > > If it really matters to you, buy a bigger UPS [I already have].
>
> > Let's hope the water companies have standby power to continue to pump fresh
> > water to homes and to stop sewage flooding the streets.
>
> They do.

In the same way they have flood defences around key substations and
pumping stations, I expect.

On Sep 29, 10:58 am, Mark Robinson  wrote:
> MB wrote:
> > The story seems to have originated from Professor Fells at Newcastle
> > University / Fells Associates earlier in the month
>
> You're mixing up two stories. The Fells report warns of a crisis within
> 5-10 years because of underinvestment. Polson has already started
> another thread about that one. This thread was referring to a report
> from the National Grid warning of blackout this winter because of
> poor scheduling of planned maintenance.
>
> Most of the links you posted were referring to the Fells report. A few
> of them, notably the mirror one, were referring to the National Grid
> report, but no source that I checked on Friday was running it as
> front page material like the printed Metro (I didn't see the printed
> Mail, but the online edition had a prominent link). Most of Friday's
> other papers were leading with the US bail out story.

It was lead in the print edition too. However it was quickly rebuffed
by NG:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7638564.stm

Perhaps worth noting that Dinorwig power station -- the "Electric
Mountain" -- was designed and built in the 1970s to maintain the
Grid's frequency in the event of losing too many stations. It can
reach 1,700 MW in 75 seconds -- roughly the time it takes a large
fossil-fuel or nuclear station to spin down. However it hasn't been
used for that purpose since privatisation -- now it pumps up in the
night on cheap electricty, and makes money generating during peak
hours. Net, it's a major consumer of electricity.

The reason why it could be released from this role was that the new
CCGTs can start in minutes, whereas even a warm start on a coal
station took hours, and a cold start days. Nuclear is on base load as
either it's on, or it's broken.

However this loss of resilience is beginning to make itself felt, such
as when the Grid chopped power in several regions to maintain the
frequency when two large stations fell off within minutes:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7422817.stm

We're likely to end up similar to California, where the privatised
power industry failed to plan ahead and instead went for the quick
buck, resulting in widespread blackouts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_electricity_crisis

Of course all our old coal and nuclear plants will soon end-of-life/
get slapped by the EC and our shiney new CCGTs (some of which were
mothballed for years when gas prices spiked towards the end of the
"dash for gas") will burn expensive and unreliable (ask the Ukraine)
Russian gas. Fun times.

Thank goodness for the French...

>Of course all our old coal and nuclear plants will soon end-of-life/
>get slapped by the EC and our shiney new CCGTs (some of which were
>mothballed for years when gas prices spiked towards the end of the
>"dash for gas") will burn expensive and unreliable (ask the Ukraine)
>Russian gas. Fun times.
>


>Thank goodness for the French...

I bet Lord Nelson is spinning at 300 RPM;!.....
-- 
Tony Sayer