Remember that the NR/ATOC T&C for 'Off Peak' implied that BOJ would now be 
allowed on the outward leg of a return "unless restricted for the journey 
you are making".  Barry Salter thought that only NXEC would make use of this 
restriction.

According to AXC's FAQs here:

http://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/TicketsAndFares/TicketTypes/OffPeak/Default.aspx

"Can I break my journey?"
"Not on outward except for changing trains. Return Journey can be broken."

Could someone with fares manual access see if all AXC priced Offpeak fares 
BOJ restricted - or is it a website cockup?

Paul

Paul Scott wrote:
> Remember that the NR/ATOC T&C for 'Off Peak' implied that BOJ would now be 
> allowed on the outward leg of a return "unless restricted for the journey 
> you are making".  Barry Salter thought that only NXEC would make use of this 
> restriction.
> 
> According to AXC's FAQs here:
> 
> http://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/TicketsAndFares/TicketTypes/OffPeak/Default.aspx
> 
> "Can I break my journey?"
> "Not on outward except for changing trains. Return Journey can be broken."
> 
> Could someone with fares manual access see if all AXC priced Offpeak fares 
> BOJ restricted - or is it a website cockup?
> 
The following "Off-Peak" Ticket Validity Codes show Break of Journey as 
being not permitted: 1B/1P/2A/5A/7A/7E (for outward journeys to/from 
Kings Cross and Stevenage), 1H, 1U, 9U, 1V, 1W, 1X, 2C (for outward 
journeys to/from Kings Cross and Stevenage), 3A, 4C, 5F (for outward 
journeys to/from Kings Cross and Stevenage), *8A*, 8H, 8E, 9A/9J (for 
outward journeys to/from Kings Cross and Stevenage), 9B (for outward 
journeys to/from Kings Cross and Stevenage), 9I (for outward journeys 
to/from Kings Cross and Stevenage), 9M, VM (for outward journeys to/from 
Kings Cross and Stevenage).

I suspect that most of the affected CrossCountry flows have an 8A 
restriction.

Cheers,

Barry

On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 22:45:11 +0100, Barry Salter
 wrote:

>The following "Off-Peak" Ticket Validity Codes show Break of Journey as 
>being not permitted: 1B/1P/2A/5A/7A/7E (for outward journeys to/from 
>Kings Cross and Stevenage), 1H, 1U, 9U, 1V, 1W, 1X, 2C (for outward 
>journeys to/from Kings Cross and Stevenage), 3A, 4C, 5F (for outward 
>journeys to/from Kings Cross and Stevenage), *8A*, 8H, 8E, 9A/9J (for 
>outward journeys to/from Kings Cross and Stevenage), 9B (for outward 
>journeys to/from Kings Cross and Stevenage), 9I (for outward journeys 
>to/from Kings Cross and Stevenage), 9M, VM (for outward journeys to/from 
>Kings Cross and Stevenage).

So it is only NXEC, then.

How bloody immature.  I'm amazed and saddened they were able to take
this unilateral action.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

wensleydale@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil Williams) wrote:

>On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 22:45:11 +0100, Barry Salter
> wrote:
>
>>The following "Off-Peak" Ticket Validity Codes show Break of Journey as 
>>being not permitted: 1B/1P/2A/5A/7A/7E (for outward journeys to/from 
>>Kings Cross and Stevenage), 1H, 1U, 9U, 1V, 1W, 1X, 2C (for outward 
>>journeys to/from Kings Cross and Stevenage), 3A, 4C, 5F (for outward 
>>journeys to/from Kings Cross and Stevenage), *8A*, 8H, 8E, 9A/9J (for 
>>outward journeys to/from Kings Cross and Stevenage), 9B (for outward 
>>journeys to/from Kings Cross and Stevenage), 9I (for outward journeys 
>>to/from Kings Cross and Stevenage), 9M, VM (for outward journeys to/from 
>>Kings Cross and Stevenage).
>
>So it is only NXEC, then.
>
>How bloody immature.  I'm amazed and saddened they were able to take
>this unilateral action.


This will send Barry Doe into orbit.

Neil Williams wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 22:45:11 +0100, Barry Salter
>  wrote:
> 
>> The following "Off-Peak" Ticket Validity Codes show Break of Journey as 
>> being not permitted: 1B/1P/2A/5A/7A/7E (for outward journeys to/from 
>> Kings Cross and Stevenage), 1H, 1U, 9U, 1V, 1W, 1X, 2C (for outward 
>> journeys to/from Kings Cross and Stevenage), 3A, 4C, 5F (for outward 
>> journeys to/from Kings Cross and Stevenage), *8A*, 8H, 8E, 9A/9J (for 
>> outward journeys to/from Kings Cross and Stevenage), 9B (for outward 
>> journeys to/from Kings Cross and Stevenage), 9I (for outward journeys 
>> to/from Kings Cross and Stevenage), 9M, VM (for outward journeys to/from 
>> Kings Cross and Stevenage).
> 
> So it is only NXEC, then.
> 
Mainly...Though 8A affects several XC flows that don't pass through 
Birmingham, and various (primarily) non-London flows on other TOCs.

Cheers,

Barry

"Barry Salter"  wrote in message 
news:6j5oipF1c7fjU1@mid.individual.net...
> Neil Williams wrote:
>> On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 22:45:11 +0100, Barry Salter
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> The following "Off-Peak" Ticket Validity Codes show Break of Journey as 
>>> being not permitted: 1B/1P/2A/5A/7A/7E (for outward journeys to/from 
>>> Kings Cross and Stevenage), 1H, 1U, 9U, 1V, 1W, 1X, 2C (for outward 
>>> journeys to/from Kings Cross and Stevenage), 3A, 4C, 5F (for outward 
>>> journeys to/from Kings Cross and Stevenage), *8A*, 8H, 8E, 9A/9J (for 
>>> outward journeys to/from Kings Cross and Stevenage), 9B (for outward 
>>> journeys to/from Kings Cross and Stevenage), 9I (for outward journeys 
>>> to/from Kings Cross and Stevenage), 9M, VM (for outward journeys to/from 
>>> Kings Cross and Stevenage).
>>
>> So it is only NXEC, then.
>>
> Mainly...Though 8A affects several XC flows that don't pass through 
> Birmingham, and various (primarily) non-London flows on other TOCs.
>

But as far as XC have defined it on their website (which I quoted earlier) 
it is a standard restriction for ALL (their) 'offpeak' tickets?

Paul

Barry Salter wrote:

> The following "Off-Peak" Ticket Validity Codes show Break of Journey as 
> being not permitted: 1B/1P/2A/5A/7A/7E (for outward journeys to/from 
> Kings Cross and Stevenage), 1H, 1U, 9U, 1V, 1W, 1X, 2C (for outward 
> journeys to/from Kings Cross and Stevenage), 3A, 4C, 5F (for outward 
> journeys to/from Kings Cross and Stevenage), *8A*, 8H, 8E, 9A/9J (for 
> outward journeys to/from Kings Cross and Stevenage), 9B (for outward 
> journeys to/from Kings Cross and Stevenage), 9I (for outward journeys 
> to/from Kings Cross and Stevenage), 9M, VM (for outward journeys to/from 
> Kings Cross and Stevenage).
> 
> I suspect that most of the affected CrossCountry flows have an 8A 
> restriction.

8A being 'valid on any train' i.e. almost all savers 
between locations outside the big cities!

So much for that 'simplification.'

Charlie

XC priced off peak returns (formerly savers) are code 2V.

The details for 2V
Restriction applies to Outward and Return travel, Monday to  Friday
only.
No travel restrictions on other
days.
OUTWARD & RETURN JOURNEYS
By any train except those scheduled to depart before 0930.

There is no restriction of "break of journey"

Peter

"collybs"  wrote in message 
news:c08c4bd9-46fd-43bf-967e-2a644777ef15@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> XC priced off peak returns (formerly savers) are code 2V.
>
> The details for 2V
> Restriction applies to Outward and Return travel, Monday to  Friday
> only.
> No travel restrictions on other
> days.
> OUTWARD & RETURN JOURNEYS
> By any train except those scheduled to depart before 0930.
>
> There is no restriction of "break of journey"
>

There we go again - they are definitely not all '2V'. There are still longer 
distance XC priced 'offpeak' fares valid 'on any train after 0500', eg 
Southampton - Derby, valid on the first train of the day at 0715.  What code 
do they use?

This point has come up every few weeks since XC changed things back in May.

Paul

>
> > There is no restriction of "break of journey"
>
> There we go again - they are definitely not all '2V'. There are still longer
> distance XC priced 'offpeak' fares valid 'on any train after 0500', eg
> Southampton - Derby, valid on the first train of the day at 0715.  What code
> do they use?
>
> This point has come up every few weeks since XC changed things back in May.
>
> Paul


Sorry I missed them out

the codes are mostly either 8X OR 2V

The details for 2V
> Restriction applies to Outward and Return travel, Monday to  Friday
> only.
> No travel restrictions on other
> days.
> OUTWARD & RETURN JOURNEYS
> By any train except those scheduled to depart before 0930.

Restriction : 8X
Restriction Applies:  Outward and Return travel,  MONDAY to FRIDAY
only.
No travel restrictions on  other days.
OUTWARD AND RETURN JOURNEYS:
By any train except those scheduled to depart before
0500.

> There is no restriction of "break of journey" with either validity code.

"collybs"  wrote in message 
news:50194d4f-30ac-4844-95a8-15f607f69fac@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
> > There is no restriction of "break of journey"
>
> There we go again - they are definitely not all '2V'. There are still 
> longer
> distance XC priced 'offpeak' fares valid 'on any train after 0500', eg
> Southampton - Derby, valid on the first train of the day at 0715. What 
> code
> do they use?
>
> This point has come up every few weeks since XC changed things back in 
> May.
>
> Paul


Sorry I missed them out

the codes are mostly either 8X OR 2V

The details for 2V
> Restriction applies to Outward and Return travel, Monday to  Friday
> only.
> No travel restrictions on other
> days.
> OUTWARD & RETURN JOURNEYS
> By any train except those scheduled to depart before 0930.

Restriction : 8X
Restriction Applies:  Outward and Return travel,  MONDAY to FRIDAY
only.
No travel restrictions on  other days.
OUTWARD AND RETURN JOURNEYS:
By any train except those scheduled to depart before
0500.

> There is no restriction of "break of journey" with either validity code.

So does that mean AXC have probably made an error on their own website FAQ 
as suggested in my earlier post?

Paul

On 15 Sep, 12:12, Charlie Hulme  wrote:

> 8A being 'valid on any train' i.e. almost all savers
> between locations outside the big cities!

So who uses 8A now, and has this resulted in there being no "full
price" return for those journeys on which BOJ is permitted at all?!
How silly.

Can anyone look up MKC to/from northern Scotland (Wick, Thurso, Kyle
etc) and check it isn't 8A?  I was thinking about doing one of those
at some point in the not too distant future, but would certainly want
multiple breaks...

Neil

In message 
, at 
06:39:28 on Mon, 15 Sep 2008, Neil Williams  
remarked:
>So who uses 8A now, and has this resulted in there being no "full
>price" return for those journeys on which BOJ is permitted at all?!
>How silly.
>
>Can anyone look up MKC to/from northern Scotland (Wick, Thurso, Kyle
>etc) and check it isn't 8A?

SOR £301    no restriction code
SVR £122.30 8A
-- 
Roland Perry

> So does that mean AXC have probably made an error on their own website FAQ
> as suggested in my earlier post?
>
> Paul

I imagine that someone just transferred the answers from the old saver
tickets to the off peak tickets without looking at or checking the
answers or used the old terms & conditions to answer the questions
without realising.

Peter

On 15 Sep, 16:02, Roland Perry  wrote:

> SOR £301    no restriction code
> SVR £122.30 8A

Grr.  So that means I'll need to split tickets to get a more
restrictive one, then (!)  (I think a split at Glasgow/Edinburgh would
do that).  Wonderful.  (Time restrictions are irrelevant as it'd be a
weekend I did it)

Is it a both-way BoJ restriction or just outward?

Neil

"collybs"  wrote in message 
news:f87d68c6-cf5c-4675-a425-1cbfbfc1ad9c@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>> So does that mean AXC have probably made an error on their own website 
>> FAQ
>> as suggested in my earlier post?
>>
>> Paul
>
> I imagine that someone just transferred the answers from the old saver
> tickets to the off peak tickets without looking at or checking the
> answers or used the old terms & conditions to answer the questions
> without realising.

Hopefully - I've emailed them that very question...

Paul

collybs wrote:
>> So does that mean AXC have probably made an error on their own website FAQ
>> as suggested in my earlier post?
>>
>> Paul
> 
> I imagine that someone just transferred the answers from the old saver
> tickets to the off peak tickets without looking at or checking the
> answers or used the old terms & conditions to answer the questions
> without realising.
> 

It seems to me that the TOCs have no intention of 
generally allowing outward BoJ, and intend to go on 
exactly as before with the added complication of the 
three notional catgeories imposed on the existing mess.

It also seems to me, reflecting on the recent thread 
about tickets from Gatwick that 'Advance' is a terrible 
name for a category.

'I bought my ticket in advance ... ah, but it is it an 
Advance ticket?' Aargh. 'Apex' would have been much better.

Charlie

Neil Williams wrote:
> On 15 Sep, 16:02, Roland Perry  wrote:
> 
>> SOR £301    no restriction code
>> SVR £122.30 8A
> 
> Grr.  So that means I'll need to split tickets to get a more
> restrictive one, then (!)  (I think a split at Glasgow/Edinburgh would
> do that).  Wonderful.  (Time restrictions are irrelevant as it'd be a
> weekend I did it)
> 
> Is it a both-way BoJ restriction or just outward?
> 
> Neil

Outward only restriction.

In practice the restriction is virtually unenforcable, as there are no 
ticket checks on arrival at either Waverley or Glasgow Central.

On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 18:31:48 +0100, Graeme 
wrote:

>Outward only restriction.

OK, at least that's no worse than it was.  I had got the impression
this was a both-directions restriction on these tickets.

>In practice the restriction is virtually unenforcable, as there are no 
>ticket checks on arrival at either Waverley or Glasgow Central.

If I do it again I'd probably want to follow the pattern of last time,
i.e. Sleeper outwards but one overnight BoJ somewhere in the middle of
the return half.  Overnight would be enforceable if the ticket was
gripped as the date would be shown.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

In message 
, at 
08:31:14 on Mon, 15 Sep 2008, Neil Williams  
remarked:
>> SVR £122.30 8A
>
>Grr.  So that means I'll need to split tickets to get a more
>restrictive one, then (!)  (I think a split at Glasgow/Edinburgh would
>do that).  Wonderful.  (Time restrictions are irrelevant as it'd be a
>weekend I did it)
>
>Is it a both-way BoJ restriction or just outward?

BoJ permitted on return leg only.
-- 
Roland Perry

Barry Salter wrote:

> The following "Off-Peak" Ticket Validity Codes show Break of Journey as 
> being not permitted:

Incidentally, it appears to me that NXEC haven't restricted BoJ right 
across the board.

For Cambridge to York (priced by NXEC), the Off Peak Return (SVR)[1] on 
the cheaper 'via Ely' route does indeed disallow outbound BoJ.

But the Super Off Peak Return (SSR)[2] on the more expensive 'not 
London' route is a little more complicated.  Validity code is 9D and 
although it has a BoJ restriction, it says "If travel does not involve 
London Terminals, see restriction code 2V."  Now, I think if I'm not 
travelling from, to or via London Terminals then my travel doesn't 
involve London Terminals, even though I might use a train that 
originated at Kings Cross, so I should refer to 2V.

Now, 2V has no BoJ restrictions.  So I think that means I can break my 
journey, right?

But just in case NXEC thinks I should apply the BoJ restrictions from 9D 
anyway, let's see what they say:

   "No break of journey allowed on outward travel from London King's 
Cross and Stevenage."

They way I read it, if I use the more usual 'via Ely' route on this 
ticket (change at Peterborough) I'm clearly OK for BoJ.  But what about 
if I change at Stevenage?  I'll be joining the NXEC service at 
Stevenage, but I'm travelling _from_ Cambridge, so I think I'm still OK. 
  They could easily have said "travel from or via..." like so many other 
restrictions, and they didn't, so I have to take it at face value and 
assume it's allowed?

Am I right?

-roy

[1] This is the old Saver Return
[2] This is the old Saver Return, the old Business Saver Return having 
become the Off Peak Return (SVR).

> [1] This is the old Saver Return
> [2] This is the old Saver Return, the old Business Saver Return having 
> become the Off Peak Return (SVR).

Incidentally, simplification here has certainly made things more 
confusing, as well as less flexible.

NXEC had Savers on both the 'via Ely' and 'not London' routes, the 
former necessitating a change at Peterborough; the latter costing a 
couple of quid more and sometimes giving extra connection opportunities 
by allowing the alternative of change at Stevenage.

On the cheaper 'via Ely' route the Saver has become the Off Peak as one 
would expect, but on the 'not London' route the Saver has had to become 
the Super Off Peak to accomodate the Business Saver product, which is 
now the Off Peak.

Apart from being unnecessarily confusing - we now have two similar 
tickets, similarly priced, but one is Off Peak and the other is Super 
Off Peak, the Super Off Peak fare isn't the cheapest available as one 
might naively expect - Off Peak 'via Ely' is a couple of quid cheaper.

But what's problematic about this is that it means you can no longer do 
a route excess from the the old 'via Ely' Saver to the 'not London' 
Saver.  If you want to do a route excess now then AIUI it would have to 
be from the 'via Ely' Off Peak to the 'not London' Off Peak (i.e. the 
old Business Saver) - a much more expensive proposition.

-roy

On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 17:16:41 +0100, Roland Perry 
wrote:

>In message 
>, at 
>08:31:14 on Mon, 15 Sep 2008, Neil Williams  
>remarked:
>>> SVR £122.30 8A
>>
>>Grr.  So that means I'll need to split tickets to get a more
>>restrictive one, then (!)  (I think a split at Glasgow/Edinburgh would
>>do that).  Wonderful.  (Time restrictions are irrelevant as it'd be a
>>weekend I did it)
>>
>>Is it a both-way BoJ restriction or just outward?
>
>BoJ permitted on return leg only.

Thanks to yourself as well.  I'm fine with the SVR "status quo" (as
long as you're allowed to run into the next day to use the Sleeper), I
had the impression that no-BoJ Off Peaks were no-BoJ in both
directions.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

In message <Anzzk.58289$E41.25925@text.news.virginmedia.com>, at 
20:15:28 on Mon, 15 Sep 2008, Roy Badami  remarked:
>But what's problematic about this is that it means you can no longer do 
>a route excess from the the old 'via Ely' Saver to the 'not London' 
>Saver.  If you want to do a route excess now then AIUI it would have to 
>be from the 'via Ely' Off Peak to the 'not London' Off Peak (i.e. the 
>old Business Saver) - a much more expensive proposition.

That's because of a rule that you can only excess within the same ticket 
type, is it? I've never previously had the need to think about the 
existence of such a rule.
-- 
Roland Perry

On 16 Sep, 06:46, Roland Perry  wrote:

> That's because of a rule that you can only excess within the same ticket
> type, is it?

Yep.

>I've never previously had the need to think about the
> existence of such a rule.

That's because the ticket types used to make sense, and now they
don't.  It would now make more sense for all "Off-Peak" types to be
considered equal for XS purposes, and similarly all "Anytime" types.

The problem arises because you can only do a one-way route excess
within a ticket type, and you can't (AIUI) excess "down" a ticket,
only "up".

It's another reason[1] why an all-singles approach would make a lot
more sense - you could then excess anything to anything, and which leg
it was would make no difference.

[1] There is a downside to it which is the limit to Break of Journey
which it would bring in (over and above a single overnight).  That
said, a system of all singles would make buying a single up then a
split single back a far more affordable and logical proposition, so
overnight BoJ would be far less of an issue.  Same day BoJ isn't an
issue because it is not enforced even on tickets where it is banned -
I have many times broken outward SVRs, sometimes by several hours, and
have not once been questioned about it.

Neil

What are the restrictions on Grand Central's 'Off Peak Day S' tickets?

The GNER booking clerk at Newcastle just scratched his head at first,
but thought I might be able to break the journey on the same day.

On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 03:54:10 -0700 (PDT), EE507 
wrote:

>What are the restrictions on Grand Central's 'Off Peak Day S' tickets?
>
>The GNER booking clerk at Newcastle just scratched his head at first,
>but thought I might be able to break the journey on the same day.

If there's nothing on the restriction code that would be the default.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Roland Perry wrote:

> That's because of a rule that you can only excess within the same ticket 
> type, is it? I've never previously had the need to think about the 
> existence of such a rule.

I believe a route excess has to be within the same ticket type, yes.

But remember that the Retail Manual has never been made available to the 
public, so my understanding of excess fares is based entirely on 
previous posts to uk.r :-)

It's also possible to excess up to a more flexible ticket type (while 
keeping everything else the same) but that's a different kind of excess. 
  e.g. (in new money) you buy an Off-Peak Return, and then change your 
plans and decide you need to return peak time, you can excess up to an 
Anytime Return.  But (I think) you always pay the full difference 
between the costs of the return tickets - you can't excess just one leg 
- so all it does is put you in the same position as if you'd bought an 
Anytime Return in the first place.

-roy

On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 21:00:45 GMT, Roy Badami 
wrote:

>It's also possible to excess up to a more flexible ticket type (while 
>keeping everything else the same) but that's a different kind of excess. 
>  e.g. (in new money) you buy an Off-Peak Return, and then change your 
>plans and decide you need to return peak time, you can excess up to an 
>Anytime Return.  But (I think) you always pay the full difference 
>between the costs of the return tickets - you can't excess just one leg 
>- so all it does is put you in the same position as if you'd bought an 
>Anytime Return in the first place.

Correct.

Many ticket office staff think this also applies to route excesses,
and need correcting on the matter if you actually want one.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Neil Williams wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 21:00:45 GMT, Roy Badami 
> wrote:
> 
>> It's also possible to excess up to a more flexible ticket type (while 
>> keeping everything else the same) but that's a different kind of excess. 
>>  e.g. (in new money) you buy an Off-Peak Return, and then change your 
>> plans and decide you need to return peak time, you can excess up to an 
>> Anytime Return.  But (I think) you always pay the full difference 
>> between the costs of the return tickets - you can't excess just one leg 
>> - so all it does is put you in the same position as if you'd bought an 
>> Anytime Return in the first place.
> 
> Correct.
> 
> Many ticket office staff think this also applies to route excesses,
> and need correcting on the matter if you actually want one.

One think I was wondering - is it possible to excess up from, say, a 
Cheap Day Return to a Saver Return (or their new money equivalents)? 
I'm guessing not (but if it is allowed then my supplementary question 
is: does it have to be done during on the day of validity of the CDR or 
can it be done afterwards?).

-roy

On 16 Sep, 15:41, Roy Badami  wrote:
> Neil Williams wrote:
> > On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 21:00:45 GMT, Roy Badami 
> > wrote:
>
> >> It's also possible to excess up to a more flexible ticket type (while
> >> keeping everything else the same) but that's a different kind of excess.
> >>  e.g. (in new money) you buy an Off-Peak Return, and then change your
> >> plans and decide you need to return peak time, you can excess up to an
> >> Anytime Return.  But (I think) you always pay the full difference
> >> between the costs of the return tickets - you can't excess just one leg
> >> - so all it does is put you in the same position as if you'd bought an
> >> Anytime Return in the first place.
>
> > Correct.
>
> > Many ticket office staff think this also applies to route excesses,
> > and need correcting on the matter if you actually want one.
>
> One think I was wondering - is it possible to excess up from, say, a
> Cheap Day Return to a Saver Return (or their new money equivalents)?
> I'm guessing not (but if it is allowed then my supplementary question
> is: does it have to be done during on the day of validity of the CDR or
> can it be done afterwards?).
>
> -roy- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

You can - but only while the ticket held is valid for travel.....