After the simplification, the traveller wanting to get from Nottingham
to London offpeak has a choice of four different fares (five if you
count a return leg ticketed outbound from KGX), and five different time
bands just for the return leg.

I've summarised the situation as far as I can tell what it is (and also
added the somewhat simpler "morning peak" session).

http://www.perry.co.uk/images/NOT-offpeak.pdf

Trains in grey are not valid for offpeak fares; the horizontal lines are
my attempt to divide the trains into "bands".

Some highlights:

The wooden spoon inevitably goes to the "via Grantham" super offpeak
fare - where a day trip either has just over 2.5 hrs in London (11.51 -
14.30) or a five hour wait for the next valid service (14.30 - 19.33)
and just one later train (20.30).

For an extra £6.70 the Any Permitted SOP allows half an hour longer in
London (until 15:00) if you are prepared to change at Loughborough, and
some opportunities to use a direct train rather than change at Grantham
(but without any real time advantages).

The best value seems to be the Any Permitted offpeak ticket (£59) which
allows uninterrupted service from KGX (on return halves), and if you
insist on only using St Pancras and can risk a 4-minute change at
Loughborough, a latest afternoon departure of 16.25 (this is something
new I've learnt from the exercise).

        [It's not clear to me what happens if you miss the 4-minute
        connection as the next train is the "banned" 16.30; of course
        you could always break the tickets at Loughborough (something
        that would save up to £6.20 on an Anytime fay trip, or cost
        £5.80 on an Offpeak multi-day trip). Or you could interpret the
        "valid for departures form St Pancras between X & Y" condition
        to mean it was OK because *your* departure was in range, even if
        that train's wasn't.]

I can't see any reason why you'd ever want the "via Grantham" Offpeak
ticket as it has worse time bands as the Any Permitted (including
earliest arrival 10:40 versus 10:19), is route restricted, and costs
more.

E&EO, this is all beginning to make my head hurt, it's that simple.
-- 
Roland Perry

and to think the guy from ATOC the other day said on BBC there would only be 
2 types of ticket !!

(any one want a house overlooking the Grantham Nottingham railway next to 
Bingham station good view of all traffic and 2 mins walk to station)



cheers

Mike
"Roland Perry"  wrote in message 
news:QbUFT6bfXsxIFABP@perry.co.uk...
> After the simplification, the traveller wanting to get from Nottingham
> to London offpeak has a choice of four different fares (five if you
> count a return leg ticketed outbound from KGX), and five different time
> bands just for the return leg.
>
> I've summarised the situation as far as I can tell what it is (and also
> added the somewhat simpler "morning peak" session).
>
> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/NOT-offpeak.pdf
>
> Trains in grey are not valid for offpeak fares; the horizontal lines are
> my attempt to divide the trains into "bands".
>
> Some highlights:
>
> The wooden spoon inevitably goes to the "via Grantham" super offpeak
> fare - where a day trip either has just over 2.5 hrs in London (11.51 -
> 14.30) or a five hour wait for the next valid service (14.30 - 19.33)
> and just one later train (20.30).
>
> For an extra £6.70 the Any Permitted SOP allows half an hour longer in
> London (until 15:00) if you are prepared to change at Loughborough, and
> some opportunities to use a direct train rather than change at Grantham
> (but without any real time advantages).
>
> The best value seems to be the Any Permitted offpeak ticket (£59) which
> allows uninterrupted service from KGX (on return halves), and if you
> insist on only using St Pancras and can risk a 4-minute change at
> Loughborough, a latest afternoon departure of 16.25 (this is something
> new I've learnt from the exercise).
>
>        [It's not clear to me what happens if you miss the 4-minute
>        connection as the next train is the "banned" 16.30; of course
>        you could always break the tickets at Loughborough (something
>        that would save up to £6.20 on an Anytime fay trip, or cost
>        £5.80 on an Offpeak multi-day trip). Or you could interpret the
>        "valid for departures form St Pancras between X & Y" condition
>        to mean it was OK because *your* departure was in range, even if
>        that train's wasn't.]
>
> I can't see any reason why you'd ever want the "via Grantham" Offpeak
> ticket as it has worse time bands as the Any Permitted (including
> earliest arrival 10:40 versus 10:19), is route restricted, and costs
> more.
>
> E&EO, this is all beginning to make my head hurt, it's that simple.
> -- 
> Roland Perry

In message <VlAxk.3391$qs5.822@newsfe30.ams2>, at 20:44:16 on Tue, 9 Sep 
2008, flybywire  remarked:
>and to think the guy from ATOC the other day said on BBC there would 
>only be 2 types of ticket !!

At the other extreme, I was on a train from London to Stansted yesterday 
and there only seemed to be *one* kind of ticket (this was mid evening) 
on the machine. Anytime. When the conductor came round later, and I 
asked him about offpeak tickets (it was a single I needed) he didn't 
understand what I was talking about.

That isn't code for "told me I was out of luck" it was "complete 
incomprehension about the whole concept".
-- 
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry"  wrote in message 
news:Tlil8rlEwtxIFAzH@perry.co.uk...
>
> At the other extreme, I was on a train from London to Stansted yesterday 
> and there only seemed to be *one* kind of ticket (this was mid evening) on 
> the machine. Anytime. When the conductor came round later, and I asked him 
> about offpeak tickets (it was a single I needed) he didn't understand what 
> I was talking about.

What time was it?

A CDS (OpDs) is not valid in the evenings anyway so the SOS (Anytime) is the 
only one. There is only a 30p difference anyway.

I've not had to use a machine yet, or buy any XS fares for anything so I've 
not had the delight of 'negotiating my ticket type yet. I agree its a bit of 
a mess!

In message <48c79e42$0$2923$fa0fcedb@news.zen.co.uk>, at 11:15:30 on 
Wed, 10 Sep 2008, Q <?.?.?@?.?.?.invalid> remarked:

>> At the other extreme, I was on a train from London to Stansted yesterday
>> and there only seemed to be *one* kind of ticket (this was mid evening) on
>> the machine. Anytime. When the conductor came round later, and I asked him
>> about offpeak tickets (it was a single I needed) he didn't understand what
>> I was talking about.
>
>What time was it?

About 8.30pm.

>A CDS (OpDs) is not valid in the evenings anyway

8.30pm feels pretty off-peak to me! The train was deserted.

>so the SOS (Anytime) is the only one. There is only a 30p difference 
>anyway.

That's not much incentive to travel off-peak :(

>I've not had to use a machine yet, or buy any XS fares for anything so I've
>not had the delight of 'negotiating my ticket type yet. I agree its a bit of
>a mess!

It was pretty easy as there was just one ticket on sale (hence my 
wondering what had happened to the rest).
-- 
Roland Perry

On 9 Sep, 19:52, Roland Perry  wrote:
> The best value seems to be the Any Permitted offpeak ticket (£59) which
> allows uninterrupted service from KGX (on return halves), and if you
> insist on only using St Pancras and can risk a 4-minute change at
> Loughborough, a latest afternoon departure of 16.25 (this is something
> new I've learnt from the exercise).
>
>         [It's not clear to me what happens if you miss the 4-minute
>         connection as the next train is the "banned" 16.30; of course
>         you could always break the tickets at Loughborough (something
>         that would save up to £6.20 on an Anytime fay trip, or cost
>         £5.80 on an Offpeak multi-day trip). Or you could interpret the
>         "valid for departures form St Pancras between X & Y" condition
>         to mean it was OK because *your* departure was in range, even if
>         that train's wasn't.]

Does the change meet the minimum 'time allowed for changing trains'
requirement for Loughborough? If it does, and the first train is late,
I believe you are permitted to travel on the next available train
regardless of that train's restrictions. You may need proof of the
first train's lateness - get your ticket endorsed by the guard /
manager....

If it doesn't meet minimum requirements, it isn't a recognised
connection & if you miss it, it'll cost you....either time or money,
or both.

In message 
, at 
06:12:50 on Wed, 10 Sep 2008, Chris  
remarked:
>> The best value seems to be the Any Permitted offpeak ticket (£59) which
>> allows uninterrupted service from KGX (on return halves), and if you
>> insist on only using St Pancras and can risk a 4-minute change at
>> Loughborough, a latest afternoon departure of 16.25 (this is something
>> new I've learnt from the exercise).
>>
>>         [It's not clear to me what happens if you miss the 4-minute
>>         connection as the next train is the "banned" 16.30; of course
>>         you could always break the tickets at Loughborough (something
>>         that would save up to £6.20 on an Anytime fay trip, or cost
>>         £5.80 on an Offpeak multi-day trip). Or you could interpret the
>>         "valid for departures form St Pancras between X & Y" condition
>>         to mean it was OK because *your* departure was in range, even if
>>         that train's wasn't.]
>
>Does the change meet the minimum 'time allowed for changing trains'
>requirement for Loughborough? If it does, and the first train is late,
>I believe you are permitted to travel on the next available train
>regardless of that train's restrictions. You may need proof of the
>first train's lateness - get your ticket endorsed by the guard /
>manager....
>
>If it doesn't meet minimum requirements, it isn't a recognised
>connection & if you miss it, it'll cost you....either time or money,
>or both.

All I'm really worried about is whether they'll allow you on the later 
train from St Pancras, that left London after the watershed. Otherwise 
it would involve a wait for an hour for the next local service (probably 
a Birmingham to Skegness, but I've not looked that up).
-- 
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry"  wrote in message 
news:Htug+oC1U8xIFAhi@perry.co.uk...
>
>>What time was it?
>
> About 8.30pm.

Well thats well after the 18:34 cut off then...

> 8.30pm feels pretty off-peak to me! The train was deserted.
>
>>so the SOS (Anytime) is the only one. There is only a 30p difference 
>>anyway.
>
> That's not much incentive to travel off-peak :(

No - your right so unless this is another error, the only difference is that 
the CDR is banned in the evening peak, and the SOS is not. It gives no info 
as to who sets the SOS fare (Although it may just be missing)

>>I've not had to use a machine yet, or buy any XS fares for anything so 
>>I've
>>not had the delight of 'negotiating my ticket type yet. I agree its a bit 
>>of
>>a mess!
>
> It was pretty easy as there was just one ticket on sale (hence my 
> wondering what had happened to the rest).

Hmm - see I'd stick 5p in the PERTIS machine and go with that till someone 
who knows what was going on came along... Even though its only 30p that 
could be a lot of 30p's if you have to do the journey a bit and don't need a 
season/period ticket...

I'll have to have a word with a few people who have been out to the airport 
and see what they got charged.

On 10 Sep, 14:01, Roland Perry  wrote:
> >> At the other extreme, I was on a train from London to Stansted yesterday
> >> and there only seemed to be *one* kind of ticket (this was mid evening) on
> >> the machine. Anytime. When the conductor came round later, and I asked him
> >> about offpeak tickets (it was a single I needed) he didn't understand what
> >> I was talking about.
>
> >What time was it?
>
> About 8.30pm.
>
> >A CDS (OpDs) is not valid in the evenings anyway
>
> 8.30pm feels pretty off-peak to me! The train was deserted.
>
> >so the SOS (Anytime) is the only one. There is only a 30p difference
> >anyway.
>
> That's not much incentive to travel off-peak :(

There's no off-peak on the Heathrow Express.....

"Chris"  wrote in message 
news:0bd429fc-899b-4893-8e0d-ed17b46902f0@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> There's no off-peak on the Heathrow Express.....

True, and no meet & great fare any more... I found that out a while ago when 
I had a few trips back and forth to meet/drop people off...

Roland Perry wrote:
> After the simplification, the traveller wanting to get from Nottingham
> to London offpeak has a choice of four different fares (five if you
> count a return leg ticketed outbound from KGX), and five different time
> bands just for the return leg.
> 
> I've summarised the situation as far as I can tell what it is (and also
> added the somewhat simpler "morning peak" session).
> 
> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/NOT-offpeak.pdf
> 
> Trains in grey are not valid for offpeak fares; the horizontal lines are
> my attempt to divide the trains into "bands".

I've just produced my own summary in Excel, which just uses red and 
green shading to show what ticket is valid when. (At least as far as I 
can tell from the restriction text).

Note: This only applies for a ticket *FROM* Nottingham to London. 
Tickets issued for the reverse journey take a slightly different set of 
restrictions (primarily relating to travel from Kings Cross), just to 
confuse everybody.

PDF can be found at <http://www.southie.me.uk/NOT-tkts.pdf>

Cheers,

Barry

"Q" <..@..> wrote:

> Hmm - see I'd stick 5p in the PERTIS machine and go with that till someone 
> who knows what was going on came along... Even though its only 30p that 
> could be a lot of 30p's if you have to do the journey a bit and don't need 
> a season/period ticket...

Would that not leave you open to a Penalty Fare, bearing in mind Liverpool 
Street (which I assume was the station of departure here) has a '24/7' 
booking office, and lots of machines?

In fact, is there a PERTIS machine at Liverpool Street?

Chris

"Chris Read"  wrote in message 
news:L92dnefszbZwvVXVnZ2dnUVZ8jSdnZ2d@bt.com...
>
> Would that not leave you open to a Penalty Fare, bearing in mind Liverpool 
> Street (which I assume was the station of departure here) has a '24/7' 
> booking office, and lots of machines?

Good Point... Your quite right it would - and you would not be able to get 
through the gates either...

> In fact, is there a PERTIS machine at Liverpool Street?

I was thinking (for some reason) of Tot Hale...

(But the fares/info was from London Terminals)

Mybad

In message 
, at 
08:44:25 on Wed, 10 Sep 2008, Chris  
remarked:
>> >so the SOS (Anytime) is the only one. There is only a 30p difference
>> >anyway.
>>
>> That's not much incentive to travel off-peak :(
>
>There's no off-peak on the Heathrow Express.....

But at least the Heathrow Express is both fast, and modern trains.

The Stansted non-very-Express I was on yesterday was an unrefurbished 
317 (3+2 seating and all...)
-- 
Roland Perry

In message , at 20:33:01 on 
Wed, 10 Sep 2008, Chris Read  remarked:
>> Hmm - see I'd stick 5p in the PERTIS machine and go with that till someone
>> who knows what was going on came along... Even though its only 30p that
>> could be a lot of 30p's if you have to do the journey a bit and don't need
>> a season/period ticket...
>
>Would that not leave you open to a Penalty Fare, bearing in mind Liverpool
>Street (which I assume was the station of departure here) has a '24/7'
>booking office, and lots of machines?

I was departing from Tottenham Hale.
-- 
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry"  wrote in message 
news:2C7cl1AsCDyIFAN3@perry.co.uk...
> In message , at 20:33:01 on 
> Wed, 10 Sep 2008, Chris Read  remarked:
>>> Hmm - see I'd stick 5p in the PERTIS machine and go with that till 
>>> someone
>>> who knows what was going on came along... Even though its only 30p 
>>> that
>>> could be a lot of 30p's if you have to do the journey a bit and 
>>> don't need
>>> a season/period ticket...
>>
>>Would that not leave you open to a Penalty Fare, bearing in mind 
>>Liverpool
>>Street (which I assume was the station of departure here) has a '24/7'
>>booking office, and lots of machines?
>
> I was departing from Tottenham Hale.

That would explain it. There is no CDR Tottenham Hale - Stansted for 
some reason. The best ticket to buy seems to be a CDR Clapton - Stansted 
for 15.40 compared with 24.00 for the SOR from Tottenham Hale.

Checking some other fares, CDRs exist for every station on the line 
except Hackney Downs and Tottenham Hale. Not sure if this is an 
oversight or a deliberate policy.

There is also a rather pointless SVR Clapton - Stansted at 24.70 which 
is 0.70 more expensive than the SOR Clapton - Stansted at 24.00!

Peter Smyth

"Roland Perry"  wrote in message 
news:2C7cl1AsCDyIFAN3@perry.co.uk...
>
> I was departing from Tottenham Hale.

Ahh I see well in that case I see the following;

Only an SOS (Anytime) for £15.00 (No restrictions)
a CDR - £15.40 and a SOR for £24.00

In message <48c84c7c$0$26074$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>, at 23:38:53 on 
Wed, 10 Sep 2008, Q <?.?.?@?.?.?.invalid> remarked:
>> I was departing from Tottenham Hale.
>
>Ahh I see well in that case I see the following;
>
>Only an SOS (Anytime) for £15.00 (No restrictions)
>a CDR - £15.40 and a SOR for £24.00

Yerse... but we are being told that there are now two types of walk-up 
fare: anytime and offpeak. And yet some very obvious flows don't have an 
offpeak ticket. Is that a simplification? Sounds more complicated to me.

(I only needed a single, as I flew back into Gatwick. Then Southern to 
Victoria. Train had some seats available and was new, but the ride was 
appalling. Lurching from side to side violently.)
-- 
Roland Perry

On Sep 10, 8:33 pm, "Chris Read"  wrote:
> > Hmm - see I'd stick 5p in the PERTIS machine and go with that till someone
> > who knows what was going on came along... Even though its only 30p that
> > could be a lot of 30p's if you have to do the journey a bit and don't need
> > a season/period ticket...
>
> Would that not leave you open to a Penalty Fare, bearing in mind Liverpool
> Street (which I assume was the station of departure here) has a '24/7'
> booking office, and lots of machines?

IMX the staff on StEx never issue PFs (just undiscounted Open/Anytime
tickets). Not sure whether this is policy rather than guard
discretion, although given the model of the other airport 'express'
services I suspect the former.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On 10 Sep, 19:36, Barry Salter  wrote:
> I've just produced my own summary in Excel, which just uses red and
> green shading to show what ticket is valid when. (At least as far as I
> can tell from the restriction text).
>
An aspect of the current timetable is that almost all southbound
trains in the morning peak and northbound trains in the evening
peak call at Kettering. This means that splitting tickets there
(and at Leicester) can be used to reduce the fare for a day trip:

Anytime Day Return Nottingham - Leicester - GBP8.70
Anytime Day Return Leicester - Kettering - GBP12.70
Anytime Return Kettering - St Pancras - GBP67.00

Total = GBP88.40 compared to the Anytime Return
Nottingham - St Pancras at GBP121.50.

In message 
, at 
14:48:41 on Tue, 16 Sep 2008, gooukr@hotmail.co.uk writes
>An aspect of the current timetable is that almost all southbound
>trains in the morning peak and northbound trains in the evening
>peak call at Kettering. This means that splitting tickets there
>(and at Leicester) can be used to reduce the fare for a day trip:
>
>Anytime Day Return Nottingham - Leicester - GBP8.70
>Anytime Day Return Leicester - Kettering - GBP12.70
>Anytime Return Kettering - St Pancras - GBP67.00
>
>Total = GBP88.40 compared to the Anytime Return
>Nottingham - St Pancras at GBP121.50.

Another useful split is Nottingham-Kettering, then a Kettering Off-peak 
Travelcard (which is valid in the evening peak).

Total is £21.40 (as above) + £34.50 = £56.90

First valid train is 08.29 KET 09.45 SPX (a Derby train dep 07.34)
    For NOT use the 07.30 change at Kettering 08.17

Or wait until the 08.07 NOT 10.04 SPX

Although now that you can buy an Offpeak Return £68 on the earlier than 
before 08.26 NOT 10.19 SPX, this particular trick is less useful.

But remember it's also a Travelcard, which is a saving of at least £4 if 
you are going to be using the tube at all.
-- 
Roland Perry