Hi all, its me again, the guy from Manea.

Tonight we were rewarded with a 3 coach train for the 17:50 departure from 
Cambridge, rather than the usual 2 coach one.

Just before getting off, one of my fellow passengers suggested to me they 
did not like the 3 coach trains as, although they had more chance of getting 
a seat and less of being crammed in like cattle (my definition not theirs), 
some conductors would not stop at Manea with a 3-coach train for 'safety 
reasons' and we would be conveyed to March.

I assumed that if this occurred, as we had tickets from Cambridge to Manea, 
that Cross Country would arrange and pay for conveyance back to Manea 
Station.  I understand that in the past this has not happened and they have 
been 'dumped' at March and told 'make your own way back to Manea'.

Can this be correct?  Have had s snout through the conditions of carriage, 
but either this scenario is not in there, or more likely I have missed it.

What ARE the rules in this situation?  I can understand that if they cannot 
lock out certain doors on the train then for safety they may not be able to 
stop, but surely this is their problem to resolve, not mine.

Any advice, directions to appropriate regulations, etc, much appreciated.

TA

J

"Jabberwocky"  wrote >
> Just before getting off, one of my fellow passengers suggested to me they
> did not like the 3 coach trains as, although they had more chance of
getting
> a seat and less of being crammed in like cattle (my definition not
theirs),
> some conductors would not stop at Manea with a 3-coach train for 'safety
> reasons' and we would be conveyed to March.
>
> I assumed that if this occurred, as we had tickets from Cambridge to
Manea,
> that Cross Country would arrange and pay for conveyance back to Manea
> Station.  I understand that in the past this has not happened and they
have
> been 'dumped' at March and told 'make your own way back to Manea'.
>
> Can this be correct?  Have had s snout through the conditions of carriage,
> but either this scenario is not in there, or more likely I have missed it.
>
I would argue that this section of the Conditions of Carriage apply:

"43. Help from Train Companies if you are stranded
If disruption caused by circumstances within the control of a Train Company
or
a Rail Service Company leaves you stranded before you have reached your
destination and the Train Company whose trains you are entitled to use is
unable
to get you to that destination by other means, any Train Company which is in
a
position to help will, if it reasonably can, either arrange to get you to
that
destination, or provide overnight accommodation for you."

Tell them that they have a choice: put you on the next train back and stop
it specially at Manea, put you in a taxi which they pay for, or put you up
in a hotel overnight (at their expense) so that you can go back to Manea in
the morning.

The sensible answer would be the train with the special stop; the likely one
would be the taxi. If you're more than an hour late at Manea don't forget to
claim your vouchers as well.

Peter

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 19:00:34 +0100 someone who may be "Jabberwocky"
 wrote this:-

>What ARE the rules in this situation?  I can understand that if they cannot 
>lock out certain doors on the train then for safety they may not be able to 
>stop, but surely this is their problem to resolve, not mine.

Depends on the type of train, essentially grandfather rights. 

Personally I think the Railway Inspectorate are being
over-protective in many circumstances. In rural (and some urban)
areas buses stop at unlit bus stops, possibly/probably without any
form of platform, without any "safety" concerns. Having said that
people have been injured getting off trains and stepping into space
and at busy stations it is a no no anyway, due to other lines,
conductor rails and other things. It is also true that people might
take less care with sliding doors, though I remain to be convinced
about this. Given the length of platforms these days a three coach
train at a two coach long platform would have only a door at each
end over the ramp. Is/was there a spate of people being
injured/killed in Manchester getting off trams and onto the ramps of
the profiled platforms at some stops?



-- 
  David Hansen, Edinburgh 
 I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
 http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 19:29:21 +0100 someone who may be "Peter Masson"
 wrote this:-

>While the TOC is required to rely on grandfather rights, or selective door
>opening, or ensure that trains are not too long for the platforms, are there
>any rules which require a stop to be omitted if a train is incorrectly
>formed and so too long for a platform, if SDO is not available?

Pass.

>Where SDO is
>not provided, is it possible for the conductor to open one door only?

Beauly station was re-opened on the basis that this would be the
normal method of operation. On some classes of train opening one of
the vestibule doors is how the driver uses a lineside telephone.
Given the slight "safety" hysteria these days I'm surprised this is
still permitted.



-- 
  David Hansen, Edinburgh 
 I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
 http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On 2008-08-19, Peter Masson wrote:

> I would argue that this section of the Conditions of Carriage apply:
>
> "43. Help from Train Companies if you are stranded If disruption
> caused by circumstances within the control of a Train Company or a
> Rail Service Company leaves you stranded before you have reached
> your destination and the Train Company whose trains you are entitled
> to use is unable to get you to that destination by other means, any
> Train Company which is in a position to help will, if it reasonably
> can, either arrange to get you to that destination, or provide
> overnight accommodation for you."
>
> Tell them that they have a choice: put you on the next train back and stop
> it specially at Manea, put you in a taxi which they pay for, or put you up
> in a hotel overnight (at their expense) so that you can go back to Manea in
> the morning.
>
> The sensible answer would be the train with the special stop; the likely one
> would be the taxi. If you're more than an hour late at Manea don't forget to
> claim your vouchers as well.

I could imagine a TOC arguing that stranding you *after* your
destination doesn't count.

"Adam Funk"  wrote in message 
news:lfkrn5-sbt.ln1@news.ducksburg.com...
> On 2008-08-19, Peter Masson wrote:
>
>> I would argue that this section of the Conditions of Carriage apply:
>>
>> "43. Help from Train Companies if you are stranded If disruption
>> caused by circumstances within the control of a Train Company or a
>> Rail Service Company leaves you stranded before you have reached
>> your destination and the Train Company whose trains you are entitled
>> to use is unable to get you to that destination by other means, any
>> Train Company which is in a position to help will, if it reasonably
>> can, either arrange to get you to that destination, or provide
>> overnight accommodation for you."
>>
>> Tell them that they have a choice: put you on the next train back and 
>> stop
>> it specially at Manea, put you in a taxi which they pay for, or put you 
>> up
>> in a hotel overnight (at their expense) so that you can go back to Manea 
>> in
>> the morning.
>>
>> The sensible answer would be the train with the special stop; the likely 
>> one
>> would be the taxi. If you're more than an hour late at Manea don't forget 
>> to
>> claim your vouchers as well.
>
> I could imagine a TOC arguing that stranding you *after* your
> destination doesn't count.


If a TOC took you beyond your destination, and just dumped you there, it 
might be worth asking the (rail or civil) police to consider whether you 
might have been abducted against your will.

However, unless there was a major disaster, any TOC would be foolish just to 
abandon passengers with valid tickets, because the media would just love 
such a story.

Bevan

Peter Masson wrote:

> Where SDO is
> not provided, is it possible for the conductor to open one door only?

That's how Hull Trains operated when they stopped 6 car 170s at Howden. 
They could not have had grandfather rights.

Philip.

Peter Masson wrote:

> Where SDO is not provided, is it possible for the conductor to open
> one door only?

I don't know, but I assume that this must be possible by one or more of
three strategies, depending on train:

a) open one door if the train is set up to do so.

b) open all doors briefly then close all but the one that the conductor
looks out of to make sure the others are closed.

c) use the door the driver uses.

-- 
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p12598525.html
(47 638 at Bescot, Apr 1987)

"Peter Masson"  wrote in message 
news:fb-dnacf97pxjTbVnZ2dnUVZ8vidnZ2d@bt.com...
>
> While the TOC is required to rely on grandfather rights, or selective door
> opening, or ensure that trains are not too long for the platforms, are 
> there
> any rules which require a stop to be omitted if a train is incorrectly
> formed and so too long for a platform, if SDO is not available? Where SDO 
> is
> not provided, is it possible for the conductor to open one door only?
>

That is exactly how SWT deal with the regularly timetabled 444 calls at 
places with 4 car platforms (or less). It's the only way of practically 
achieving a call, and presumably OK with HMRI, despite the apparent lack of 
'grandfather rights' for the class...

Paul

There is a note in the West Yorkshire PTE Pontefract timetable to the effect 
that\ at Whitley Bridge, Snaith, Hensall and Rwacliffe only one door will be 
used and pasengers are requested to follow the gaurd's instructions.  This 
would be presumably the guards door, usually at the rer of the train.

Think the trains would be 142 or 144 which would have grandfather rights, so 
not having been there for a while I don't know why such a restriction has 
been imposed.


With a pa system on the train, suitable station announcements and a fairly 
minor station can't see a problem really.

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 13:13:32 +0100 someone who may be "Paul Rigg"
 wrote this:-

>With a pa system on the train, suitable station announcements and a fairly 
>minor station can't see a problem really.

Neither can I. However, that didn't stop the lady getting off a
cross country HST at Markinch (before Operation Princess), stepping
onto nothing and breaking her ankle when she hit the ground.



-- 
  David Hansen, Edinburgh 
 I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
 http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

In article , David Hansen 
 writes
>Given the length of platforms these days a three coach
>train at a two coach long platform would have only a door at each
>end over the ramp.

According to the Rules of the Plan, the maximum length of train 
permitted at Manea is 34 metres on the down (towards March) platform and 
38 metres on the up (towards Ely) platform. Trains over that length need 
to be authorised by the Regional Director.

-- 
Clive D.W. Feather                       | Home: 
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work)             | Web:  <http://www.davros.org>
Fax: +44 870 051 9937                    | Work: 
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

In article ,
 "Clive D. W. Feather"  wrote:

> In article , David Hansen 
>  writes
> >Given the length of platforms these days a three coach
> >train at a two coach long platform would have only a door at each
> >end over the ramp.
> 
> According to the Rules of the Plan, the maximum length of train 
> permitted at Manea is 34 metres on the down (towards March) platform and 
> 38 metres on the up (towards Ely) platform. Trains over that length need 
> to be authorised by the Regional Director.

That'll be a Pacer or a 153, then.

Sam

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 14:57:42 +0100 someone who may be "Clive D. W.
Feather"  wrote this:-

>>Given the length of platforms these days a three coach
>>train at a two coach long platform would have only a door at each
>>end over the ramp.
>
>According to the Rules of the Plan, the maximum length of train 
>permitted at Manea is 34 metres on the down (towards March) platform and 
>38 metres on the up (towards Ely) platform.

How long is the "flat" bit of each platform?

When platforms were extended around here for six coach trains a fair
proportion of the extensions at some locations was for the overrun
distances now specified. Given the extra special sky high railway
prices of these extensions, for what was a very simple building job
in most cases, I think it reasonable to compare the cost these extra
lengths of platform with the danger of people stepping out onto the
ramp on those occasions when the driver does not get the stopping
quite right. I'm not convinced these extra lengths of platform were
cost effective, especially as HST drivers are able to stop their
much longer trains with a great deal of precision at some stations,
in all weathers, despite some of these stations being at the bottom
of hills.

Now if simple railway jobs could be done at realistic prices then
extra bits of platform may be cost effective, but at current railway
prices I'm not convinced.



-- 
  David Hansen, Edinburgh 
 I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
 http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

"Paul Rigg"  wrote in message 
news:r6-dnSQia4fylzHVnZ2dnUVZ8h6dnZ2d@bt.com...
>
> There is a note in the West Yorkshire PTE Pontefract timetable to the 
> effect that\ at Whitley Bridge, Snaith, Hensall and Rwacliffe only one 
> door will be used and pasengers are requested to follow the gaurd's 
> instructions.  This would be presumably the guards door, usually at the 
> rer of the train.
>
> Think the trains would be 142 or 144 which would have grandfather rights, 
> so not having been there for a while I don't know why such a restriction 
> has been imposed.

I did this line a couple of weeks ago, a 150/1 + 153 was supplied for the 
evening Leeds - Goole train. The conductor emptied and locked the Dogbox at 
Knottingley, saying something about the wrong kind of train being supplied. 
It seemed that all the doors on the 150 opened at the smaller stations and 
they all looked long enough for that to be safe. Surprisingly, I think 
people got off at every one of the smaller stations except, possibly, 
Rawcliffe. I don't think anyone got on at any station other than Leeds 
though!

On 2008-08-19, Bevan Price wrote:

>> I could imagine a TOC arguing that stranding you *after* your
>> destination doesn't count.
>
>
> If a TOC took you beyond your destination, and just dumped you there, it 
> might be worth asking the (rail or civil) police to consider whether you 
> might have been abducted against your will.

I'm sure it's rare; that was just idle speculation.

> However, unless there was a major disaster, any TOC would be foolish just to 
> abandon passengers with valid tickets, because the media would just love 
> such a story.

It's rare, but it did happen to me once (before the destination,
though).