A railway expert has said a steam locomotive speed record set 70 years
ago will probably never be broken.

The Mallard steam locomotive reached 126 miles an hour on a stretch of
track near Grantham in July 1938.

etc

The museum plans to reunite the Mallard with three other "A4"
locomotives - the Bittern, Sir Nigel Gresley and Union of South Africa
- on 5 July.

etc and more from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lincolnshire/7488137.stm

On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 10:22:49 -0700 (PDT), "nickw7coc@gmail.com"
 wrote:

>A railway expert has said a steam locomotive speed record set 70 years
>ago will probably never be broken.
>

Well at least the 'expert' isn't the ubiquitous Christian Wolmar!

On 3 Jul, 18:22, "nickw7...@gmail.com"  wrote:
> A railway expert has said a steam locomotive speed record set 70 years
> ago will probably never be broken.
>
> The Mallard steam locomotive reached 126 miles an hour on a stretch of
> track near Grantham in July 1938.
>
> etc
>
> The museum plans to reunite the Mallard with three other "A4"
> locomotives - the Bittern, Sir Nigel Gresley and Union of South Africa
> - on 5 July.
>
> etc and more fromhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lincolnshire/7488137.stm

On the way home this evening came across Sir Nigel Gresley waiting to
leave Bristol  for London Victoria with a special train. Only caught a
glimpse as my train left, but there was a plaque on the loco which I
think said it had reached 112mph. Mallard had some sprightly sisters.

In article ,  <M Platting> wrote:
>On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 10:22:49 -0700 (PDT), "nickw7coc@gmail.com"
> wrote:
>
>>A railway expert has said a steam locomotive speed record set 70 years
>>ago will probably never be broken.

Well, whatever the highest speed by steam-on-rails was it'll probably
not be exceeded now, but whether of not it'ss Mallard is onw of those
very open questions. The Penssy duplexes could certainly run, and
the original prototype is said to have run fast enough for all records
to be hastily disposed of before the ICC got wind of it.

Not that it matters, of course, apart from ensuring that a very #
pretty locomotive is still in existance (bit like the
case of City of Truro, which probably didn't run faster than steam
already had in the US and certainly didn't run as fast as electrics
already had in Germany, but the "might have, may have" was enough
to make sure that the LN&E bought it to preserve when the GW
were going to scrap it).

>
>Well at least the 'expert' isn't the ubiquitous Christian Wolmar!

Here's your saucer of milk. --->

-- 
Andy Breen ~ 	Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth
		Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting
		 money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair)

On 3 Jul, 20:10, a...@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Robert Breen) wrote:
> In article ,  <M Platting> wrote:
> >On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 10:22:49 -0700 (PDT), "nickw7...@gmail.com"
> > wrote:
>
> >>A railway expert has said a steam locomotive speed record set 70 years
> >>ago will probably never be broken.
>
> Well, whatever the highest speed by steam-on-rails was it'll probably
> not be exceeded now, but whether of not it'ss Mallard is onw of those
> very open questions. The Penssy duplexes could certainly run, and
> the original prototype is said to have run fast enough for all records
> to be hastily disposed of before the ICC got wind of it.
>
> Not that it matters, of course, apart from ensuring that a very #
> pretty locomotive is still in existance (bit like the
> case of City of Truro, which probably didn't run faster than steam
> already had in the US and certainly didn't run as fast as electrics
> already had in Germany, but the "might have, may have" was enough
> to make sure that the LN&E bought it to preserve when the GW
> were going to scrap it).
>
>
>
> >Well at least the 'expert' isn't the ubiquitous Christian Wolmar!
>
> Here's your saucer of milk. --->
>
> --
> Andy Breen ~    Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth
>                 Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting
>                  money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair)

hmmmm I wonder what the 5AT will do when it is built

Guy

In article ,
guy   wrote:
>On 3 Jul, 20:10, a...@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Robert Breen) wrote:
>> In article ,  <M Platting> wrote:
>> >On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 10:22:49 -0700 (PDT), "nickw7...@gmail.com"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >>A railway expert has said a steam locomotive speed record set 70 years
>> >>ago will probably never be broken.
>>
>> Well, whatever the highest speed by steam-on-rails was it'll probably
>> not be exceeded now, but whether of not it'ss Mallard is onw of those
>> very open questions. The Penssy duplexes could certainly run, and
>> the original prototype is said to have run fast enough for all records
>> to be hastily disposed of before the ICC got wind of it.

>hmmmm I wonder what the 5AT will do when it is built

"When", I suspect, is a wee bit optimistic. "In the outside event
of", perhaps, or just plain "if".

Leaving that aside, it's a general-purpose machine, not a 
specialist fast-runner like an A4, the big German Baltics,
a Milwalkee Atlantic or a Duplex. It's also a 2-cylinder
machine, and if you reckon that there's any railway with
track fit for 200 km/h plus which is going to allow a lightly-
balanced two-cylinder machine to anything like that speed
on their track - well, I have this bridge for sale
that you might be interested in...

Suspect that if anyone were daft enough to build a Stephensonian-
type machine as a fast runner these days then the place to start would
be with a 3- or 4-cylinder layout, all in line, all driving onto
the same axle. At least that's reasonably balanced and will cause
fewer conniptations amongst the permanent way folks.

It's not going to happen, of course.

-- 
Andy Breen ~ 	Speaking for myself, not the University of Wales
		"your suggestion rates at four monkeys for six weeks"
						(Peter D. Rieden)

"Andrew Robert Breen"  wrote in message 
news:3qkvj5x79q.ln2@news.aber.ac.uk...
> In article ,  <M Platting> 
> wrote:
>>On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 10:22:49 -0700 (PDT), "nickw7coc@gmail.com"
>> wrote:
>>
>>>A railway expert has said a steam locomotive speed record set 70 years
>>>ago will probably never be broken.
>
> Well, whatever the highest speed by steam-on-rails was, it'll probably
> not be exceeded now, but whether or not it's Mallard is one of those
> very open questions.

Interesting bit of family trivia: my dad was born 70 years ago today, on the 
day that Mallard did her stuff. My grandpa was a very keen steam enthusiast 
and so my dad is called Nigel - after Sir Nigel Gresley, Mallard's designer. 
My grandpa also used to claim (and I've not managed to find anyone at the 
National Railway Museum to confirm or refute this) that he submitted the 
winning design for the plaque commemorating the event (Mallard's record, not 
Dad's birth!) in a competition for people to submit designs.

In article <BNidnS6B7b-pqPDVRVnyugA@posted.plusnet>,
Mortimer  wrote:
>"Andrew Robert Breen"  wrote in message 
>news:3qkvj5x79q.ln2@news.aber.ac.uk...
>> In article ,  <M Platting> 
>> wrote:
>>>On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 10:22:49 -0700 (PDT), "nickw7coc@gmail.com"
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>A railway expert has said a steam locomotive speed record set 70 years
>>>>ago will probably never be broken.
>>
>> Well, whatever the highest speed by steam-on-rails was, it'll probably
>> not be exceeded now, but whether or not it's Mallard is one of those
>> very open questions.
>
>Interesting bit of family trivia: my dad was born 70 years ago today, on the 
>day that Mallard did her stuff. My grandpa was a very keen steam enthusiast 
>and so my dad is called Nigel - after Sir Nigel Gresley, Mallard's designer. 
>My grandpa also used to claim (and I've not managed to find anyone at the 
>National Railway Museum to confirm or refute this) that he submitted the 
>winning design for the plaque commemorating the event (Mallard's record, not 
>Dad's birth!) in a competition for people to submit designs. 

Y'know, every so often I'm reminded of why I hang around in this group. 
Your post was just such a moment. Wonderful stuff - and a reminder that
it's really about people, not things.

-- 
Andy Breen ~ 	Speaking for myself, not the University of Wales
		"your suggestion rates at four monkeys for six weeks"
						(Peter D. Rieden)

http://www.sirnigelgresley.co.uk
Including - 00 gauge Hornby and Bachmann models for sale.

-- 
Sue
The Sir Nigel Gresley Locomotive Preservation Trust is now at
In article 
, 826 
 writes
>On 3 Jul, 18:22, "nickw7...@gmail.com"  wrote:
>> A railway expert has said a steam locomotive speed record set 70 years
>> ago will probably never be broken.
>>
>> The Mallard steam locomotive reached 126 miles an hour on a stretch of
>> track near Grantham in July 1938.
>>
>> etc
>>
>> The museum plans to reunite the Mallard with three other "A4"
>> locomotives - the Bittern, Sir Nigel Gresley and Union of South Africa
>> - on 5 July.
>>
>> etc and more fromhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lincolnshire/7488137.stm
>
>On the way home this evening came across Sir Nigel Gresley waiting to
>leave Bristol  for London Victoria with a special train. Only caught a
>glimpse as my train left, but there was a plaque on the loco which I
>think said it had reached 112mph. Mallard had some sprightly sisters.
>
Especially when aided by one, Bill Hoole.  The 112mph run was on the 
Stephenson Locomotive Society outing in 1959, down Stoke Bank (of 
course), with Mr Hoole at the regulator.  Legend has it that, before the 
run, he was overheard expressing rash intentions concerning having a go 
at Mallard's record, with the result that Gerry Fiennes called him into 
his office and (by threatening to hang enough extra carriages on the 
train to scupper any such attempt if he didn't) got him to solemnly 
promise not to try it.  And Alan Pegler was on the footplate, ready to 
exert a spot of authority just in case Bill forgot himself in the 
excitement of the moment and had a go anyway.

"Sue McNaughton"  wrote
> >
> Especially when aided by one, Bill Hoole.  The 112mph run was on the
> Stephenson Locomotive Society outing in 1959, down Stoke Bank (of
> course), with Mr Hoole at the regulator.  Legend has it that, before the
> run, he was overheard expressing rash intentions concerning having a go
> at Mallard's record, with the result that Gerry Fiennes called him into
> his office and (by threatening to hang enough extra carriages on the
> train to scupper any such attempt if he didn't) got him to solemnly
> promise not to try it.  And Alan Pegler was on the footplate, ready to
> exert a spot of authority just in case Bill forgot himself in the
> excitement of the moment and had a go anyway.

Peter Semmens tells of another occasion when Bill Hoole exceeded the
permitted speed with Sir Nigel Gresley, and this was on the Royal Train.
There was some new stock which had not been tested at speed on the GN Line,
and as the loading gauge in Stoke Tunnel is (was) rather tight, a speed
limit of 5 mph for the train had been imposed through the tunnel. The
inspector timed him through the half-mile tunnel, and when they emerged
after five minutes instead of six, turned to Bill and said 'You've done it
again - the limit was 5 mph, not 6.'

Peter

On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 12:10:11 -0700 (PDT), 826
 wrote:

>On 3 Jul, 18:22, "nickw7...@gmail.com"  wrote:
>> A railway expert has said a steam locomotive speed record set 70 years
>> ago will probably never be broken.
>>
>> The Mallard steam locomotive reached 126 miles an hour on a stretch of
>> track near Grantham in July 1938.
>>
>> etc
>>
>> The museum plans to reunite the Mallard with three other "A4"
>> locomotives - the Bittern, Sir Nigel Gresley and Union of South Africa
>> - on 5 July.
>>
>> etc and more fromhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lincolnshire/7488137.stm
>
>On the way home this evening came across Sir Nigel Gresley waiting to
>leave Bristol  for London Victoria with a special train. Only caught a
>glimpse as my train left, but there was a plaque on the loco which I
>think said it had reached 112mph. Mallard had some sprightly sisters.

Well, today being the 70th anniversary of Mallard's record run, I took
a trip to the NRM for another look at her. 60009 was there too, under
cover, and 60019 was outside in the rain.

Saturday's 4 x A4 line-up will be a bit special, but I'm not paying
£35 for the privilege of witnessing it.

Andrew Robert Breen schrieb:


> Not that it matters, of course, apart from ensuring that a very #
> pretty locomotive is still in existance (bit like the
> case of City of Truro, which probably didn't run faster than steam
> already had in the US and certainly didn't run as fast as electrics
> already had in Germany, but the "might have, may have" was enough
> to make sure that the LN&E bought it to preserve when the GW
> were going to scrap it).


City of Truro has been preserved, NYC 999 has been preserved, Reading
343 was scrapped together with all other Camelback Atlantics.

So you have a good argument. Want to preserve a loco? Spread a rumour.
                                                                   ;-)


Hans-Joachim



-- 
              Boring standard picture, done a thousand times ...

        http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/1/6/9/8169.1180360800.jpg

In article ,
Hans-Joachim Zierke   wrote:
>
>Andrew Robert Breen schrieb:
>
>> Not that it matters, of course, apart from ensuring that a very #
>> pretty locomotive is still in existance (bit like the
>> case of City of Truro, which probably didn't run faster than steam
>> already had in the US and certainly didn't run as fast as electrics
>> already had in Germany, but the "might have, may have" was enough
>> to make sure that the LN&E bought it to preserve when the GW
>> were going to scrap it).
>
>City of Truro has been preserved, NYC 999 has been preserved, Reading
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^no thanks to the GWR
                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ albeit
much rebuilt, but a good thing still

>343 was scrapped together with all other Camelback Atlantics.

.. and that's a tragedy, as they were such a distinctive type
that one should have stayed, regardless (if only as a memorial
to the firemen who kept that monster grate fueled - men of
steel, truely)

>So you have a good argument. Want to preserve a loco? Spread a rumour.
>                                                                   ;-)

Hey, it works for me. The ficticious "1822" date saved "Lyon" from
the Hetton railway, so we no have a rare example of a mid-19th-century
industrial engine to peruse (Killingworth Billy may be another example,
though it's not certain what that thing really is..). I'm all for it.

-- 
Andy Breen ~ 	Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth
		Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting
		 money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair)

Andrew Robert Breen schrieb:


> .. and that's a tragedy, as they were such a distinctive type
> that one should have stayed, regardless

Yes.

> (if only as a memorial
> to the firemen who kept that monster grate fueled - men of
> steel, truely)

I'm not sure that the monster grate was such a problem. After all, the
monster grate wasn't longer than some other fireboxes, and used for 
slow burning of a rather thin layer of anthrazite dust or mass, which 
had a rather high energy content. 
BUT: The /position/ of the fireman ... left room for improvement.

Plus I think, that at least the high-speed runs of the Atlantik City 
Flyer were done with 2 firemen.


Hans-Joachim


-- 
              Down the mountainside      To the coastline
              Past the angry tide        The mighty diesel whines

       http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/1/4/3/8143.1151434800.jpg

On 3 Jul, 22:05, Sue McNaughton  wrote:
> http://www.sirnigelgresley.co.uk
> Including - 00 gauge Hornby and Bachmann models for sale.
>
> --
> Sue
> The Sir Nigel Gresley Locomotive Preservation Trust is now at
> In article
> , 826
>  writes
>
> >On 3 Jul, 18:22, "nickw7...@gmail.com"  wrote:
> >> A railway expert has said a steam locomotive speed record set 70 years
> >> ago will probably never be broken.
>
> >> The Mallard steam locomotive reached 126 miles an hour on a stretch of
> >> track near Grantham in July 1938.
>
> >> etc
>
> >> The museum plans to reunite the Mallard with three other "A4"
> >> locomotives - the Bittern, Sir Nigel Gresley and Union of South Africa
> >> - on 5 July.
>
> >> etc and more fromhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lincolnshire/7488137.stm
>
> >On the way home this evening came across Sir Nigel Gresley waiting to
> >leave Bristol  for London Victoria with a special train. Only caught a
> >glimpse as my train left, but there was a plaque on the loco which I
> >think said it had reached 112mph. Mallard had some sprightly sisters.
>
> Especially when aided by one, Bill Hoole.  The 112mph run was on the
> Stephenson Locomotive Society outing in 1959, down Stoke Bank (of
> course), with Mr Hoole at the regulator.  Legend has it that, before the
> run, he was overheard expressing rash intentions concerning having a go
> at Mallard's record, with the result that Gerry Fiennes called him into
> his office and (by threatening to hang enough extra carriages on the
> train to scupper any such attempt if he didn't) got him to solemnly
> promise not to try it.  And Alan Pegler was on the footplate, ready to
> exert a spot of authority just in case Bill forgot himself in the
> excitement of the moment and had a go anyway.

Bill Hoole's 112 mph on Sir Nigel is immortalised on the Argo
Transacord LP 'The triumph of an A4 Pacific', recorded by the late
Peter Handford. If you are lucky enough to have a copy, play loud!

Tony Martin

On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 22:25:21 +0100, Mike Roebuck wrote
>> 
>> On the way home this evening came across Sir Nigel Gresley waiting to
>> leave Bristol  for London Victoria with a special train. Only caught a
>> glimpse as my train left, but there was a plaque on the loco which I
>> think said it had reached 112mph. Mallard had some sprightly sisters.
> 
> Well, today being the 70th anniversary of Mallard's record run,

...and by a pure co-incidence, I found Don Hale's book 'Mallard' in the loft 
yesterday and decided to re-read it.  An excellent read it is too.

>
> A railway expert has said a steam locomotive speed record set 70 years
> ago will probably never be broken.
>

I'm not so sure we've seen the last of working steam.

If the oil price continues what it's been doing these last couple of
years and all the predictions are that it will then diesel trains are
surely on the way out.

Electrification will not be possible or economic everywhere in the
World particularly those lengthy trans-continental railways.

Who knows if they start building steam again then someone’s bound to
have a go and given the technology gap between then and the now that
126mph record doesn’t sound so difficult.

It’s not like you would be pushing the boundaries of rail as a
technology or locomotive design for that sort of speed nowadays.

allan tracy wrote:
>> A railway expert has said a steam locomotive speed record set 70 years
>> ago will probably never be broken.
>>
> 
> I'm not so sure we've seen the last of working steam.
> 
> If the oil price continues what it's been doing these last couple of
> years and all the predictions are that it will then diesel trains are
> surely on the way out.
> 
> Electrification will not be possible or economic everywhere in the
> World particularly those lengthy trans-continental railways.

FWIW, wiring the Trans-Siberian was completed a couple of years or so ago.


-- 
Arthur Figgis               Surrey, UK

>
> > Electrification will not be possible or economic everywhere in the
> > World particularly those lengthy trans-continental railways.
>
> FWIW, wiring the Trans-Siberian was completed a couple of years or so ago.
>

That's a pretty important railway though, there must be many more that
aren't.

What about those outback routes in places like Queensland with just a
couple of trains a week?

<M Platting> wrote in message 
news:hc4q649o82sujl9rsfjssi547qbumt5ggb@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 10:22:49 -0700 (PDT), "nickw7coc@gmail.com"
>  wrote:
>
>>A railway expert has said a steam locomotive speed record set 
>>70 years
>>ago will probably never be broken.
>>
>
> Well at least the 'expert' isn't the ubiquitous Christian 
> Wolmar!

Indeed! There was a CW on BBC Breakfast TV this morning - but the 
presentation had no connection with the railway, it was about a 
singing dentist!

-- 
MatSav

On Jul 3, 7:22 pm, "nickw7...@gmail.com"  wrote:
> A railway expert has said a steam locomotive speed record set 70 years
> ago will probably never be broken.
>
> The Mallard steam locomotive reached 126 miles an hour on a stretch of
> track near Grantham in July 1938.
>
> etc
>
> The museum plans to reunite the Mallard with three other "A4"
> locomotives - the Bittern, Sir Nigel Gresley and Union of South Africa
> - on 5 July.
>
> etc and more fromhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lincolnshire/7488137.stm

The Beeb gets a lot of stick (not least on here) for what appears to
be some seriously flawed reporting these days.

I don't particularly like the lead for this story - but there again, a
piece aimed at the general public has got to be attractive (if not
sex, try speed) - but that's just me, and it's not inaccurate.

Overall, a hell of a lot of work and thought has gone into this piece
- they went to York, Little Bytham, Church Gresely, and contacted a
whole bunch of folks to give it a very rounded, human interest and
bring the story home of how "cutting edge" this was at the time in
1938.  I think this is an excellent production, and emailed the beeb
to tell them so.
Kester

allan tracy wrote:
>>>Electrification will not be possible or economic everywhere in the
>>>World particularly those lengthy trans-continental railways.
>>FWIW, wiring the Trans-Siberian was completed a couple of years or so ago.
>>
> 
> That's a pretty important railway though, there must be many more that
> aren't.

There are very few trans-continental routes that are not important 
enough to warrent electrification in the face of oil price rises.

> What about those outback routes in places like Queensland with just a
> couple of trains a week?

Are these lines with lots of freight and only 2 passenger trains a week, 
or lines with only 2 trains of any sort per week?  One is a minor branch 
line, the other is a freight line with a residual passenger service, and 
they are very different beasts economically.

I see one of three things happening to minor lines.  Either they will 
win traffic from the roads as the fuel costs of road transport rise 
faster than rail, and it will become enough to justify electrification, 
or they will soldier on with diesel until the bionic duck weed comes 
along, or the bionic duck weed will never come to fruition, and they 
will close entirely.

With respect to steam technology, the only sensible place for a steam 
engine is in a big field next to a river.

Robin

allan tracy schrieb:


> Electrification will not be possible or economic everywhere in the
> World particularly those lengthy trans-continental railways.

Have a look at China to learn, how things are getting done under those
conditions.


> Who knows if they start building steam again

ROTFL.
It's one thing, to be a fan of old steamers and their achievements. It's
another thing, to make a fool out of oneself.


Hans-Joachim


-- 
                           Perfect ergonomics.
                           
       http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/4/1/4/7414.1213678831.jpg

On 3 Jul, 18:22, "nickw7...@gmail.com"  wrote:

[quoting the BBC]

> A railway expert has said a steam locomotive speed record set 70 years
> ago will probably never be broken.
>
> The Mallard steam locomotive reached 126 miles an hour on a stretch of
> track near Grantham in July 1938.

I've never really believed in that record. Wrecking a locomotive while
going downhill shouldn't count: like other speed records it should
require two runs in different directions within a specified time.

Incidentally, how on earth could whichever MacWhirter it was time
Roger Bannister by hand to an accuracy of 0.04s?

Ian

On Mon, 7 Jul 2008 21:58:50 -0700 (PDT), The Real Doctor
 wrote:

>On 3 Jul, 18:22, "nickw7...@gmail.com"  wrote:
>
>[quoting the BBC]
>
>> A railway expert has said a steam locomotive speed record set 70 years
>> ago will probably never be broken.
>>
>> The Mallard steam locomotive reached 126 miles an hour on a stretch of
>> track near Grantham in July 1938.
>
>I've never really believed in that record. Wrecking a locomotive while
>going downhill shouldn't count: like other speed records it should
>require two runs in different directions within a specified time.
>
>Incidentally, how on earth could whichever MacWhirter it was time
>Roger Bannister by hand to an accuracy of 0.04s?
>
Was it measured purely by hand ? 0.4s hints at something measuring in
units of 1/24 or 1/25 sec such as would occur using a film or
television camera.