Hello. I'm trying to book a train from Paddington to Reading on
Saturday 5th July. I have made the slightly longer journey from
Paddington to Oxford before and been able to purchase an advance
ticket for around £3-£4, so I was assuming I could do the same to
Reading for even less!

However, no advance tickets are available for this journey. Does
anyone know why?

Kind Regards,

Matt

"Matt" wrote
> Hello. I'm trying to book a train from Paddington to Reading on 
> Saturday 5th July. I have made the slightly longer journey from 
> Paddington to Oxford before and been able to purchase an advance 
> ticket for around £3-£4, so I was assuming I could do the same to 
> Reading for even less! However, no advance tickets are available 
> for this journey. Does anyone know why?

Presumably too short a distance to qualify for advance tickets.  I 
suppose you could book to Oxford (or wherever) and terminate short... 
if you can exit Reading station. See numerous previous threads about 
terminating short.

On Jul 1, 12:15 am, "John Salmon"  wrote:
> "Matt" wrote
>
> > Hello. I'm trying to book a train from Paddington to Reading on
> > Saturday 5th July. I have made the slightly longer journey from
> > Paddington to Oxford before and been able to purchase an advance
> > ticket for around £3-£4, so I was assuming I could do the same to
> > Reading for even less! However, no advance tickets are available
> > for this journey. Does anyone know why?
>
> Presumably too short a distance to qualify for advance tickets.  I
> suppose you could book to Oxford (or wherever) and terminate short...
> if you can exit Reading station. See numerous previous threads about
> terminating short.

Getting an advance ticket from Paddington - Oxford had crossed my
mind, but I assume this ticket will not let me through the barriers at
Reading. Could I just buy an additional ticket from Reading West or
something that terminates at Reading as well to let me through the
barrier?

I've had a trawl through searching for keywords such as "terminate
early" "paddington" "oxford" "reading" but had no joy. Do you know of
any thread titles that I should be lookiing for?

Kind Regards,

Matt

On 1 Jul, 00:30, Matt  wrote:
> On Jul 1, 12:15 am, "John Salmon"  wrote:
>
> > "Matt" wrote
>
> > > Hello. I'm trying to book a train from Paddington to Reading on
> > > Saturday 5th July. I have made the slightly longer journey from
> > > Paddington to Oxford before and been able to purchase an advance
> > > ticket for around £3-£4, so I was assuming I could do the same to
> > > Reading for even less! However, no advance tickets are available
> > > for this journey. Does anyone know why?
>
> > Presumably too short a distance to qualify for advance tickets.  I
> > suppose you could book to Oxford (or wherever) and terminate short...
> > if you can exit Reading station. See numerous previous threads about
> > terminating short.
>
> Getting an advance ticket from Paddington - Oxford had crossed my
> mind, but I assume this ticket will not let me through the barriers at
> Reading. Could I just buy an additional ticket from Reading West or
> something that terminates at Reading as well to let me through the
> barrier?
>
> I've had a trawl through searching for keywords such as "terminate
> early" "paddington" "oxford" "reading" but had no joy. Do you know of
> any thread titles that I should be lookiing for?
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Matt

Find an excuse to go to the booking office. The barrier staff will
generally let you through, then just leave the station. Dishonest, but
it should work.

Regards

RW

In message 
, at 
16:30:37 on Mon, 30 Jun 2008, Matt  remarked:
>I've had a trawl through searching for keywords such as "terminate
>early" "paddington" "oxford" "reading" but had no joy. Do you know of
>any thread titles that I should be lookiing for?

http://nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/advance_conditions.html

"Break of journey

You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any 
intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown 
on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary."
-- 
Roland Perry

robwa  wrote:
> Find an excuse to go to the booking office. The barrier staff will
> generally let you through, then just leave the station. Dishonest, but
> it should work.

If you're on a Padd-Oxford advance ticket and end up at Reading, I can't see
how any excuse would let you out of the station as you won't have a valid
ticket.  There'll be an excess fares facility (or someone with a machine)
inside the gateline so you can't claim you boarded at Much Twiddling Halt
and need to buy a ticket from the office.

Theo

"Theo Markettos" <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message 
news:zRd*f8Ngs@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
> robwa  wrote:
>> Find an excuse to go to the booking office. The barrier staff will
>> generally let you through, then just leave the station. Dishonest, but
>> it should work.
>
> If you're on a Padd-Oxford advance ticket and end up at Reading, I can't 
> see
> how any excuse would let you out of the station as you won't have a valid
> ticket.  There'll be an excess fares facility (or someone with a machine)
> inside the gateline so you can't claim you boarded at Much Twiddling Halt
> and need to buy a ticket from the office.
>

One of the aims in explicitly banning BOJ, stopping short etc in the recent 
changes to 'Advance' T&C was presumably to make it easier for barrier staff 
to spot this.

The earlier suggestion that barrier staff will 'generally let you through' - 
has that been tested since last month?

Paul

Not that I'd condone such things of course, but as a theoretical
exercise anyone wanting to do this could purchase an advance ticket to
a destination via Reading West (e.g. Newbury or Pewsey) if available,
alight at the unmanned Reading West and walk from there to his final
destination - it's only a few minutes' walk to Reading station and
depending on the eventual destination the extra distance may be small
or even negative. Not the greatest part of town, but feels safe enough
in daylight (and anyway this is only a theoretical exercise, and no-
one ever got hurt in a theoretical mugging...).

Steve

On Jul 1, 10:42 am, Theo Markettos <theom+n...@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
wrote:
> > Find an excuse to go to the booking office. The barrier staff will
> > generally let you through, then just leave the station. Dishonest, but
> > it should work.
>
> If you're on a Padd-Oxford advance ticket and end up at Reading, I can't see
> how any excuse would let you out of the station as you won't have a valid
> ticket.  There'll be an excess fares facility (or someone with a machine)
> inside the gateline so you can't claim you boarded at Much Twiddling Halt
> and need to buy a ticket from the office.

No - you can do this. Many Padd-Oxford advance tickets involve FGW
fast to Reading and then XC fast to Oxford (I can see one for GBP4 at
1430 next Wednesday...).

On one of those, you've got a perfectly legitimate reason to be on
Reading station, so you can ask to be let through the gateline to go
to Burger King / the cash machine / the pub, and then hot-foot it out
of the station.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Steve  wrote:

>Not that I'd condone such things of course, but as a theoretical
>exercise anyone wanting to do this could purchase an advance ticket to
>a destination via Reading West (e.g. Newbury or Pewsey) if available,
>alight at the unmanned Reading West and walk from there to his final
>destination - it's only a few minutes' walk to Reading station and
>depending on the eventual destination the extra distance may be small
>or even negative. Not the greatest part of town, but feels safe enough
>in daylight (and anyway this is only a theoretical exercise, and no-
>one ever got hurt in a theoretical mugging...).


Roughly how many minutes' walk do you think it is from Reading West
station to Reading station?

(I ask as a former resident of Reading)

In message 
          Tony Polson  wrote:

> Steve  wrote:
> 
> >Not that I'd condone such things of course, but as a theoretical
> >exercise anyone wanting to do this could purchase an advance ticket to
> >a destination via Reading West (e.g. Newbury or Pewsey) if available,
> >alight at the unmanned Reading West and walk from there to his final
> >destination - it's only a few minutes' walk to Reading station and
> >depending on the eventual destination the extra distance may be small
> >or even negative. Not the greatest part of town, but feels safe enough
> >in daylight (and anyway this is only a theoretical exercise, and no-
> >one ever got hurt in a theoretical mugging...).
> 
> 
> Roughly how many minutes' walk do you think it is from Reading West
> station to Reading station?
> 
> (I ask as a former resident of Reading)
> 

At a push, 10 minutes. Also a former resident - I nearly bought a house near
Reading West, before the Oxford Road gained its present unsavoury reputation.

-- 
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>

On 1 Jul, 12:09, Tony Polson  wrote:
> Steve  wrote:
> >Not that I'd condone such things of course, but as a theoretical
> >exercise anyone wanting to do this could purchase an advance ticket to
> >a destination via Reading West (e.g. Newbury or Pewsey) if available,
> >alight at the unmanned Reading West and walk from there to his final
> >destination - it's only a few minutes' walk to Reading station and
> >depending on the eventual destination the extra distance may be small
> >or even negative. Not the greatest part of town, but feels safe enough
> >in daylight (and anyway this is only a theoretical exercise, and no-
> >one ever got hurt in a theoretical mugging...).
>
> Roughly how many minutes' walk do you think it is from Reading West
> station to Reading station?
>
> (I ask as a former resident of Reading)

20 - 30 minutes

It is quite possible to have your ticket checked between Reading and
Reading West so this doesn't seem like a sensible proposition.

Barriers at Reading are not set (when I last tried) to refuse London
to Oxford AP tickets.  Besides, thousands of people each day seem to
ignore the signs which are meant to prevent use of the manual gate by
able-bodied passengers.

I asked at a meet the manager session that use of the manual gate be
cracked down on (and the barrier times extended past 9pm in the
evening (Sunday to Thursday)).  He said that he couldn't do this
because of the volume of use which sounds like a poor excuse.  The
tolerance shown by the gate staff is far, far too lenient at Reading
(and indeed everywhere).  If the ticket does not operate the barriers
at a given station, there should be a spot £100 fine - no questions
asked, no excuses.  The railway is far too lenient in this respect.
(For it's part, it must ensure that the programming is correct.)

Jonathan

On 1 Jul, 13:05, j.p.har...@talk21.com wrote:
> I asked at a meet the manager session that use of the manual gate be
> cracked down on (and the barrier times extended past 9pm in the
> evening (Sunday to Thursday)).  He said that he couldn't do this
> because of the volume of use which sounds like a poor excuse.  The
> tolerance shown by the gate staff is far, far too lenient at Reading
> (and indeed everywhere).  If the ticket does not operate the barriers
> at a given station, there should be a spot £100 fine - no questions
> asked, no excuses.  The railway is far too lenient in this respect.
> (For it's part, it must ensure that the programming is correct.)

Totally agree, Sir - this is something I have been asking for
too....with the excess fare window inside, there should be no excuse
for arriving at the barriers without a ticket that would work them
(except for Rovers, maybe).
And sorry, they would be within their rights not to let you out to the
cash point / shops / etc. Too many people try & ILLEGALLY jump the
system.
Just buy a ticket to Reading.....why should I have to subsidise you
breaking the law!

j.p.harris@talk21.com wrote:
>
> 20 - 30 minutes
>
> It is quite possible to have your ticket checked between Reading and
> Reading West so this doesn't seem like a sensible proposition.
>
> Barriers at Reading are not set (when I last tried) to refuse London
> to Oxford AP tickets.  Besides, thousands of people each day seem to
> ignore the signs which are meant to prevent use of the manual gate by
> able-bodied passengers.
>

Seems somewhat naiive of the railway not to set the barriers to match the 
T&Cs.  Yet we hear now and again of instances where the barriers are tightly 
programmed to prevent legitimate BOJ, on FCC for example...

Then we get the 'use of station facilities' argument - presumably most 
facilities at Reading are duplicated on the platforms?  Cash machines?

Paul

On 1 Jul, 13:35, "Paul Scott"  wrote:
> j.p.har...@talk21.com wrote:
>
> > 20 - 30 minutes
>
> > It is quite possible to have your ticket checked between Reading and
> > Reading West so this doesn't seem like a sensible proposition.
>
> > Barriers at Reading are not set (when I last tried) to refuse London
> > to Oxford AP tickets.  Besides, thousands of people each day seem to
> > ignore the signs which are meant to prevent use of the manual gate by
> > able-bodied passengers.
>
> Seems somewhat naiive of the railway not to set the barriers to match the
> T&Cs.  Yet we hear now and again of instances where the barriers are tightly
> programmed to prevent legitimate BOJ, on FCC for example...
>
> Then we get the 'use of station facilities' argument - presumably most
> facilities at Reading are duplicated on the platforms?  Cash machines?
>
> Paul

A lot of shops offer cash back. It is your responsibility to have
enough cash on you.....why would you need more cash half way through a
journey? Too profligate at the buffet? :-)

> > Then we get the 'use of station facilities' argument - presumably most
> > facilities at Reading are duplicated on the platforms?  Cash machines?

If advanced purchase tickets are used, presumably it is possible that
there could be a large wait between trains on certain routes. Is there
a point at which a wait becomes excessive, such that it is reasonable
to leave the station, enjoy the area, and continue the journey at the
appropriate later hour? Rather than appreciate the delights of Reading
station (or any other) for 4 or 5 hours, I mean - and if so, is this a
BoJ given the intention to continue?

On excuses to leave, a pressing need to visit a local pharmacist would
probably do the trick (hypothetically of course).

On Tue, 1 Jul 2008 05:05:15 -0700 (PDT), j.p.harris@talk21.com wrote:

>I asked at a meet the manager session that use of the manual gate be
>cracked down on (and the barrier times extended past 9pm in the
>evening (Sunday to Thursday)).  He said that he couldn't do this
>because of the volume of use which sounds like a poor excuse.  The
>tolerance shown by the gate staff is far, far too lenient at Reading
>(and indeed everywhere).  If the ticket does not operate the barriers
>at a given station, there should be a spot =A3100 fine - no questions
>asked, no excuses.  The railway is far too lenient in this respect.
>(For it's part, it must ensure that the programming is correct.)

Except that that's almost impossible.

I can see a case for a gbp100 penalty fare for an invalid ticket, but
barriers fail all too often.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Tue, 1 Jul 2008 05:05:15 -0700 (PDT), j.p.harris@talk21.com wrote:

>I asked at a meet the manager session that use of the manual gate be
>cracked down on

Funnily enough, I asked the London Midland managers at a similar
session to *allow* more use of the manual gates.  The way they were
operating it at MKC (sending anyone who tried to use it without a
large format ticket or a bicycle to the back of the queue) was causing
an unnecessarily large buildup of people and a not inconsiderable
delay on arrival of a 12-car set in the peak.

They listened, and the queues are shorter.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Tue, 1 Jul 2008 13:35:49 +0100, "Paul Scott"
 wrote:

>Then we get the 'use of station facilities' argument - presumably most 
>facilities at Reading are duplicated on the platforms?  Cash machines?

That they might be, but you are entitled to use *any* station
facilities you choose.

The enforcement for BoJ, realistically, is not being able to restart
the broken journey.  It might have made more sense to say that
finishing short *would* be allowed, but not starting late.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

> That they might be, but you are entitled to use *any* station
> facilities you choose.
>
>
Not according to the t&cs of the advance fare - there is no
entitlement to use the station facilities:-

"You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any
intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as
shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary."

Peter

"Matt"  wrote in message
news:04b3d746-fdd4-4b1d-b5c4-8e00e578afd8@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>Hello. I'm trying to book a train from Paddington to Reading on
>Saturday 5th July. I have made the slightly longer journey from
>Paddington to Oxford before and been able to purchase an advance
>ticket for around £3-£4, so I was assuming I could do the same to
>Reading for even less!
>
>However, no advance tickets are available for this journey. Does
>anyone know why?

One reason may be the availability of very good, frequent and cheap coach
services between London and Oxford (e.g. the Oxford Tube). FGW need to offer
cheap tickets to compete with these. There is not the same competition
between London and Reading, so FGW probably reckon (and are probably
correct) that they would lose revenue by offering Advance fares - they would
not attract significant new business, nor divert significant numbers of
passengers from crowded peak trains to lightly used off-peak ones, and it
would be passengers who would be willing to pay the existing fares who would
take up Advance tickets.

Peter

Paul Scott wrote:

> Then we get the 'use of station facilities' argument - presumably most 
> facilities at Reading are duplicated on the platforms?  Cash machines?

I drove into Reading yesterday for the first time in about 10 years, and
was rather surprised to discover that I couldn't actually get to the
front of the station. How long has it been like that?
-- 
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p10743107.html
(A mixed class 108/101 6-car train at Shrewsbury, 1982)

On 1 Jul, 21:39, "Peter Masson"  wrote:
> "Matt"  wrote in message
>
> news:04b3d746-fdd4-4b1d-b5c4-8e00e578afd8@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> >Hello. I'm trying to book a train from Paddington to Reading on
> >Saturday 5th July. I have made the slightly longer journey from
> >Paddington to Oxford before and been able to purchase an advance
> >ticket for around £3-£4, so I was assuming I could do the same to
> >Reading for even less!
>
> >However, no advance tickets are available for this journey. Does
> >anyone know why?
>
> One reason may be the availability of very good, frequent and cheap coach
> services between London and Oxford (e.g. the Oxford Tube). FGW need to offer
> cheap tickets to compete with these. There is not the same competition
> between London and Reading, so FGW probably reckon (and are probably
> correct) that they would lose revenue by offering Advance fares - they would
> not attract significant new business, nor divert significant numbers of
> passengers from crowded peak trains to lightly used off-peak ones, and it
> would be passengers who would be willing to pay the existing fares who would
> take up Advance tickets.
>
> Peter

There's also the need to preserve quotas for travellers west of
Reading.  They hardly want a situation where it became impossible to
book AP tickets to Western destinations from Paddington because
Reading passengers had booked all the AP tickets.

Jonathan

On 1 Jul, 21:15, collybs  wrote:
> > That they might be, but you are entitled to use *any* station
> > facilities you choose.
>
> Not according to the t&cs of the advance fare - there is no
> entitlement to use the station facilities:-
>
> "You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any
> intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as
> shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary."

But passing through the barriers to use the station facilities without
using railway premises isn't breaking your journey. If you believe
that it is, you are wrong [*] and have no idea what you're talking
about.

[*] <Chris Morris>and a hideously ugly freak</Chris Morris>

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

John B wrote:
> On 1 Jul, 21:15, collybs  wrote:
>>> That they might be, but you are entitled to use *any* station
>>> facilities you choose.
>> Not according to the t&cs of the advance fare - there is no
>> entitlement to use the station facilities:-
>>
>> "You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any
>> intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as
>> shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary."
> 
> But passing through the barriers to use the station facilities without
> using railway premises isn't breaking your journey. If you believe
> that it is, you are wrong [*] and have no idea what you're talking
> about.

But presumably you cannot get off at just any station en 
route to buy a newspaper, only the one(s) shown on your 
ticket as places to make connections?

On 1 Jul, 13:05, j.p.har...@talk21.com wrote:
>
> Barriers at Reading are not set (when I last tried) to refuse London
> to Oxford AP tickets.  Besides, thousands of people each day seem to
> ignore the signs which are meant to prevent use of the manual gate by
> able-bodied passengers.
>
> I asked at a meet the manager session that use of the manual gate be
> cracked down on (and the barrier times extended past 9pm in the
> evening (Sunday to Thursday)).  He said that he couldn't do this
> because of the volume of use which sounds like a poor excuse.


The choice is:

a) a small number of comedians with bizarre and arcane (and possibly
legit - see below) ticket combinations get let through. The total
pikeys who don't buy tickets at all are still fined

b) giant queues makes legit travellers miss their trains.

I'm glad that the FGW manager understands that providing a service for
the people who pay them is more important than punishing a tiny
minority of people who don't, and (given that your view is the
opposite) I hope you're not in charge of anything...

> The
> tolerance shown by the gate staff is far, far too lenient at Reading
> (and indeed everywhere).  If the ticket does not operate the barriers
> at a given station, there should be a spot £100 fine - no questions
> asked, no excuses.  The railway is far too lenient in this respect.
> (For it's part, it must ensure that the programming is correct.)

What the *fuck*? You're either claiming that it's possible to come up
with an IT system that reliably and unambigiously enforces all
permutations of the Routeing Guide, in which case you know nothing
about either the Routeing Guide or IT systems, or you're claiming that
it's fair to fine people GBP100 on the spot for travelling with legal
combinations of tickets.

Again, I hope you're not in charge of anything; I'd be reluctant even
to use your whelk stall.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On 1 Jul, 22:44, Charlie Hulme  wrote:
> >> Not according to the t&cs of the advance fare - there is no
> >> entitlement to use the station facilities:-
>
> >> "You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any
> >> intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as
> >> shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary."
>
> > But passing through the barriers to use the station facilities without
> > using railway premises isn't breaking your journey. If you believe
> > that it is, you are wrong [*] and have no idea what you're talking
> > about.
>
> But presumably you cannot get off at just any station en
> route to buy a newspaper, only the one(s) shown on your
> ticket as places to make connections?

Yes, and as I posted upthread there are an awful lot of legitimate
Advance fares available from Paddington to Oxford changing at Reading.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

"John B"  wrote in message 
news:ffb3b84b-10e7-4798-bec4-54ca82d26746@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On 1 Jul, 21:15, collybs  wrote:
>> > That they might be, but you are entitled to use *any* station
>> > facilities you choose.
>>
>> Not according to the t&cs of the advance fare - there is no
>> entitlement to use the station facilities:-
>>
>> "You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any
>> intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as
>> shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary."
>
> But passing through the barriers to use the station facilities without
> using railway premises isn't breaking your journey.

Yes, it's a shame they still say "except to change...", which could be taken 
to imply that changing trains is a break. Much better wording would be:

"You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any 
intermediate station. Changing to/from connecting trains as
shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary does not constitute a 
break of journey".

The current wording also includes the nonsensical "you may not... end your 
journey at any intermediate station except to change... trains".

Regards

Jonathan

John B  wrote:
> On 1 Jul, 22:44, Charlie Hulme  wrote:
> > But presumably you cannot get off at just any station en
> > route to buy a newspaper, only the one(s) shown on your
> > ticket as places to make connections?
> 
> Yes, and as I posted upthread there are an awful lot of legitimate
> Advance fares available from Paddington to Oxford changing at Reading.

Fair point.  Also I don't see a problem with alighting from a train if you
plan to rejoin it.  On the erstwhile Edinburgh to Wick service (what, 6 or 7
hours?) I doubt anyone would complain if you went to visit Mr B. King's fast
food establishment at Inverness where the train waited for 10 mins or more. 
It's just this doesn't work at Reading as through trains only call for a
minute or two.

Theo

On Tue, 01 Jul 2008 05:30:51 -0700, Chris wrote:

> Totally agree, Sir - this is something I have been asking for
> too....with the excess fare window inside, there should be no excuse for
> arriving at the barriers without a ticket that would work them (except
> for Rovers, maybe).
<snip>

Not "maybe", I hope! Actually, I'd be most happy with some way of making 
Rovers work with the gates, but that doesn't seem remotely likely any 
time soon. And of course non-rail-issued multi-modal tickets (eg the 
Daytripper in Birmingham) aren't the right shape anyway, so until and 
unless we get universal smartcards there'll always be a considerable 
volume of "ordinary" passengers needing to use a manual gate.

-- 
Bewdley, Worcs. ~90m asl.

j.p.harris@talk21.com wrote:
>                          If the ticket does not operate the barriers
> at a given station, there should be a spot £100 fine - no questions
> asked, no excuses.  The railway is far too lenient in this respect.
> (For it's part, it must ensure that the programming is correct.)

The problem is that perfectly valid tickets often fail to operate 
barriers, for instance at stations where there is a mandatory change on 
the direct route.

Specific examples in my personal experience:

Falkirk to Bingley single ticket at Edinburgh Waverley
Bingley to Whitstable + Saver ticket at Victoria
(in fact Yorkshire to south-of-London + tickets have _always_ failed to 
operate barriers at southern terminii IMX).

Note that in these cases, you must pass the barriers to get your 
connecting train, this is not a case of break-of-journey.

If the barriers can't recognise a valid ticket even on the most obvious 
route, what hope do we have with the many more unusual (but valid) 
routings, undisputably valid break-of-journey etc.  And then, what about 
cases such as outward legs of Savers, which are not valid for 
break-of-journey, but where you are permitted to pass a barrier to 
access local services at the station.

The algorithms to determine whether a ticket is valid need to be MUCH 
more sophisticated than currently before you can dispense with manual 
checks.
-- 
Jeremy Double  {real address, include nospam}
Rail and transport photos at
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jmdouble/collections/72157603834894248/

On Wed, 2 Jul 2008, Jeremy Double wrote:

> The problem is that perfectly valid tickets often fail to operate barriers, 
> for instance at stations where there is a mandatory change on the direct 
> route.

I used to commute from Chelmsford to Shenfield with a discounted ticket of 
some sort - it might've been a CDR. Whatever it was, there was a 
restricton on it from Shenfield to London, but not to Shenfield - however 
the barrers rejected it every time.

> (in fact Yorkshire to south-of-London + tickets have _always_ failed to 
> operate barriers at southern terminii IMX).

It's only fairly recently that the mainline gates at Liverpool Street have 
started accepting +CONNECTIONS tickets to destinations in Essex.

> The algorithms to determine whether a ticket is valid need to be MUCH more 
> sophisticated than currently before you can dispense with manual checks.

I've read that some stations are setup to reject valid routes so to target 
fare evasion.
-- 
  Chris Johns

In article , 
wensleydale@pacersplace.org.uk says...
> On Tue, 1 Jul 2008 05:05:15 -0700 (PDT), j.p.harris@talk21.com wrote:
> 
> >I asked at a meet the manager session that use of the manual gate be
> >cracked down on
> 
> Funnily enough, I asked the London Midland managers at a similar
> session to *allow* more use of the manual gates.  The way they were
> operating it at MKC (sending anyone who tried to use it without a
> large format ticket or a bicycle to the back of the queue) was causing
> an unnecessarily large buildup of people and a not inconsiderable
> delay on arrival of a 12-car set in the peak.

I've never seen a queue to get out of the barriers at Reading as there 
are sufficient for each direction (6 or so for each direction).

However there is a regular stream of customers using the manual gates, 
with nothing but a very quick glance at the ticket - certainly not 
enough to check anything but maybe the date.

Maybe they should copy SWT example and replace the manual gates with  
wide ticket gates.

Duncan

In article <zRd*f8Ngs@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, 
theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk says...
> robwa  wrote:
> > Find an excuse to go to the booking office. The barrier staff will
> > generally let you through, then just leave the station. Dishonest, but
> > it should work.
> 
> If you're on a Padd-Oxford advance ticket and end up at Reading, I can't see
> how any excuse would let you out of the station as you won't have a valid
> ticket.  There'll be an excess fares facility (or someone with a machine)
> inside the gateline so you can't claim you boarded at Much Twiddling Halt
> and need to buy a ticket from the office.

Your assuming the staff manning the manual gate will actually read the 
details on the ticket and understand the restrictions which apply to 
that ticket type.

As a daily user of the station I estimate the chance of getting through 
the manual gate with a London - Oxford AP ticket without incident are 
extremely high.

Duncan

On Wed, 2 Jul 2008 19:58:03 +0100, Duncan  wrote:

>Maybe they should copy SWT example and replace the manual gates with  
>wide ticket gates.

I think all new installations are doing that.  There still needs to be
a way to let someone through manually, though, in case their ticket
isn't encoded properly[1].  On LUL this is done by way of a staff
Oyster card.

[1] Or in case you want to use the bog at City Thameslink, as I have
done on a few occasions.  Despite holding a valid ticket for doing
so[2] (a 1-6 outboundary Travelcard) the barrier won't allow you back
out once it has allowed you in.  On a season ticket that strikes me as
rather silly.

[2] I await someone's argument that I have to travel at least one stop
before it is valid for me to use the bog... ;)

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Wed, 2 Jul 2008 19:58:03 +0100, Duncan  wrote:

>As a daily user of the station I estimate the chance of getting through 
>the manual gate with a London - Oxford AP ticket without incident are 
>extremely high.

If accompanied by a single from the nearest stop, the chance of
getting through is probably 100%.  This is the weakness of
whole-station ticket barriers.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

Neil Williams wrote:
> On Wed, 2 Jul 2008 19:58:03 +0100, Duncan  wrote:
> 
> 
> [1] Or in case you want to use the bog at City Thameslink, as I have
> done on a few occasions.  Despite holding a valid ticket for doing
> so[2] (a 1-6 outboundary Travelcard) the barrier won't allow you back
> out once it has allowed you in.  On a season ticket that strikes me as
> rather silly.

You have to use the one at Farringdon, which is train side of the barriers.

mf

On Wed, 02 Jul 2008 22:23:53 +0100, Mystery Flyer
 wrote:

>Neil Williams wrote:
>> On Wed, 2 Jul 2008 19:58:03 +0100, Duncan  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> [1] Or in case you want to use the bog at City Thameslink, as I have
>> done on a few occasions.  Despite holding a valid ticket for doing
>> so[2] (a 1-6 outboundary Travelcard) the barrier won't allow you back
>> out once it has allowed you in.  On a season ticket that strikes me as
>> rather silly.
>
>You have to use the one at Farringdon, which is train side of the barriers.

Eh?  I'm talking about entering City Thameslink from the street, using
the (train-side-of-barrier) bog, then leaving it again without
travelling on Thameslink at all, but while holding a valid ticket to
do so if I actually decided to.

Neil

-- 
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On 2 Jul, 19:58, Duncan  wrote:
> In article ,
> wensleyd...@pacersplace.org.uk says...
>
> > On Tue, 1 Jul 2008 05:05:15 -0700 (PDT), j.p.har...@talk21.com wrote:
>
> > >I asked at a meet the manager session that use of the manual gate be
> > >cracked down on
>
> > Funnily enough, I asked the London Midland managers at a similar
> > session to *allow* more use of the manual gates.  The way they were
> > operating it at MKC (sending anyone who tried to use it without a
> > large format ticket or a bicycle to the back of the queue) was causing
> > an unnecessarily large buildup of people and a not inconsiderable
> > delay on arrival of a 12-car set in the peak.
>
> I've never seen a queue to get out of the barriers at Reading as there
> are sufficient for each direction (6 or so for each direction).
>
> However there is a regular stream of customers using the manual gates,
> with nothing but a very quick glance at the ticket - certainly not
> enough to check anything but maybe the date.
>
> Maybe they should copy SWT example and replace the manual gates with  
> wide ticket gates.
>
> Duncan

Your observation matches mine - there are far too many passengers at
Reading who expect to be let out using the manual gate - I've seen
some even look upset / indignant when the staff want to look at their
ticket with more than a glance.  I cannot believe that none of these
tickets work the barriers - the passengers are either being lazy and
think that they are too important to get their tickets out of the
ticket wallets or they are hiding something.  Even with wide ticket
gates, I suspect that they would expect staff to use their gate pass
to let them out.

Jonathan

"Neil Williams"  wrote in message 
news:486bf457.442229840@news.individual.net...
> On Wed, 02 Jul 2008 22:23:53 +0100, Mystery Flyer
>  wrote:
>
>>Neil Williams wrote:
>>> On Wed, 2 Jul 2008 19:58:03 +0100, Duncan  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> [1] Or in case you want to use the bog at City Thameslink, as I have
>>> done on a few occasions.  Despite holding a valid ticket for doing
>>> so[2] (a 1-6 outboundary Travelcard) the barrier won't allow you back
>>> out once it has allowed you in.  On a season ticket that strikes me as
>>> rather silly.
>>
>>You have to use the one at Farringdon, which is train side of the 
>>barriers.
>
> Eh?  I'm talking about entering City Thameslink from the street, using
> the (train-side-of-barrier) bog, then leaving it again without
> travelling on Thameslink at all, but while holding a valid ticket to
> do so if I actually decided to.

I didn't get this first time round, either. But I see you share my view that 
a season ticket de facto operates as a platform ticket for any station on 
any valid route.

Regards

Jonathan

In article , 
wensleydale@pacersplace.org.uk says...
> On Wed, 2 Jul 2008 19:58:03 +0100, Duncan  wrote:
> 
> >Maybe they should copy SWT example and replace the manual gates with  
> >wide ticket gates.
> 
> I think all new installations are doing that.

SWT are also going back to all their current gate lines and retro 
fitting the wide gate to replace the manual gate:
http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/SWTrains/News/_NewTicketGates.htm

> There still needs to be
> a way to let someone through manually, though, in case their ticket
> isn't encoded properly[1].  On LUL this is done by way of a staff
> Oyster card.

Agreed - but IMHO this should always be after the customers ticket has 
been tried in the barrier first. If nothing else the rejection code 
might alert the staff to any issues which need to be investigated 
further rather than just letting them through.

Duncan

On Jul 2, 10:20 pm, wensleyd...@pacersplace.org.uk (Neil Williams)
wrote:
> On Wed, 2 Jul 2008 19:58:03 +0100, Duncan  wrote:
> >Maybe they should copy SWT example and replace the manual gates with
> >wide ticket gates.
>
> I think all new installations are doing that.  There still needs to be
> a way to let someone through manually, though, in case their ticket
> isn't encoded properly[1].  On LUL this is done by way of a staff
> Oyster card.
>
> [1] Or in case you want to use the bog at City Thameslink, as I have
> done on a few occasions.  Despite holding a valid ticket for doing
> so[2] (a 1-6 outboundary Travelcard) the barrier won't allow you back
> out once it has allowed you in.  On a season ticket that strikes me as
> rather silly.
>
> [2] I await someone's argument that I have to travel at least one stop
> before it is valid for me to use the bog... ;)
>
> Neil
>
> --
> Neil Williams
> Put my first name before the at to reply.

That is surely because there is a delay programmed in somewhere?

Same thing happens at Kings Cross, when I enter the suburban station,
only to discover that an FCC train is actually on platform 8, and I
need to go out of the (now barriered) area.  Admittedly, if my eyes
were better, I could see the screens from further away, but thats not
the point.

Of course a season ticket should work as a platform ticket at any
eligible station - you have the right to break your journey short or
do virtually anything with it!