On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:46:50 +0000, Jim  wrote:


>>Roll on the next election...  Assuming we still have elections by
>>then.  Nothing's guaranteed with this shower.
>
>   Nothing's guaranteed by the other shower either.

If you're going to end up with an right-wing conservative government,
you may just as well have one with Conservative in their name.

At the moment, the damned Tories, look way to the left of this bunch
of neo-Facist, Brownie-shirted, control-freaks we have ruining/running
the country.

Nick.

"Hils"  wrote in message 
news:NIxzFoeBp4fIFwC8@newearth.demon.co.uk...
> lucifer@eternal-flames.gov writes
>
>>If you're going to end up with an right-wing conservative government,
>>you may just as well have one with Conservative in their name.
>>
>>At the moment, the damned Tories, look way to the left of this bunch
>>of neo-Facist, Brownie-shirted, control-freaks we have ruining/running
>>the country.
>
> Most oppositions manage to sound sensibly reforming, but when elected they 
> implement a mixture of worthwhile and questionable policies for a few 
> months before becoming functionally indistinguishable from the previous 
> regime.
>
> The best bet may be a Con-LibDem coalition which uses the best ideas from 
> both without being stable enough to do anything silly, but the chance of 
> this happening is pretty remote.
> Hil
>
>
Becoming the 51st state of the USA and so adopting their written
constitution, is the only way things could radically change.

Steve Terry

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 19:54:07 +0100, Hils 
wrote:


>Politically, Britain is already a puppet state of the USA. Adopting a 
>Swiss-style decentralised participatory democracy would be more radical, 
>more valuable, and more enduring than a paper constitution.


"You know what the fellow said, in Italy, for thirty years under the
Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they
produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In
Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of
democracy and peace—and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."
		(© Orson Welles in 'The Third Man')

"Hils"  wrote in message 
news:OmCT+UhPV5fIFwRa@newearth.demon.co.uk...
> Steve Terry wrote
>
>>Becoming the 51st state of the USA and so adopting their written
>>constitution, is the only way things could radically change.
>
> Politically, Britain is already a puppet state of the USA. Adopting a 
> Swiss-style decentralised participatory democracy would be more radical, 
> more valuable, and more enduring than a paper constitution.
> Hil
>
>
Nice but wouldn't happen, we have 3 choices:

1. Go it alone and continually diminish
2. Stay in the Peoples un-democratic but benevolent Republic of Europe.
3. Join the USA.

Steve Terry

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 21:04:59 +0100, Hils 
wrote:

>lucifer@eternal-flames.gov wrote
>
>>"You know what the fellow said, in Italy, for thirty years under the
>>Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they
>>produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In
>>Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of
>>democracy and peace—and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."
>>               (© Orson Welles in 'The Third Man')
>
>That's colourful but irrelevant, and incorrect:

No.  As a quote it is 100% correct.

As a fact, it is - as you say - incorrect.  I posted it, together with
source, as a quote.  ;-)

Nick.

"Hils"  wrote in message 
news:xk78uimrX6fIFwn5@newearth.demon.co.uk...
> lucifer@eternal-flames.gov wrote
>
>>"You know what the fellow said, in Italy, for thirty years under the
>>Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they
>>produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In
>>Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of
>>democracy and peace-and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."
>>               (© Orson Welles in 'The Third Man')
>
> That's colourful but irrelevant, and incorrect: the cuckoo clock was 
> invented in Germany. (And arguably Germany would be a better example: 
> Bach, Beethoven, Goethe, Wagner, the Third Reich.) Any of Swiss democracy, 
> Italian art, German music or French cuisine would be an improvement (with 
> considerable scope for alternatives: Italian cuisine or French music would 
> also be acceptable), but Britain has nothing remotely comparable. It's 
> less democratic then anywhere else in Europe, and what it parades as 
> culture is based almost entirely on the remnants of feudalism, monarchy 
> and an empire built from the subjugation of people so technologically 
> backward they hadn't a hope of defending themselves. Much of the 
> worthwhile art which Britain has produced was learned from Europeans.
>
> Cultural desert, democratic fraud, now economic basket-case. Britain's 
> scored a hat-trick! :-)
> Hil
>
>
Swiss Carl Jung just after the war was asked by one of his students
if the Swiss could have acted as the Germans had?

He said the only different is size, the bigger the group the bigger the
disaster they can create.

I guess the 'Merricans are a good example of that

Steve Terry

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 23:03:51 +0100, Hils 
wrote:

>Quite. IIRC America has invaded more sovereign states than did Nazi 
>Germany.

Historically, that's still far fewer than the number of countries
which Britain invaded...  They're just playing catch-up.

Nick.

Steve Terry wrote:

> Becoming the 51st state of the USA and so adopting their written
> constitution, is the only way things could radically change.

Except that they've effectively just binned the 4th amendment and no
doubt heading down the road of neutering more of the other clauses and
amendments. No guarantee that the Supreme Court will strike these
changes down either.

-- 

Brian

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 18:16:04 +0100, lucifer@eternal-flames.gov       wrote:

>On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:46:50 +0000, Jim  wrote:
>
>
>>>Roll on the next election...  Assuming we still have elections by
>>>then.  Nothing's guaranteed with this shower.
>>
>>   Nothing's guaranteed by the other shower either.
>
>If you're going to end up with an right-wing conservative government,
>you may just as well have one with Conservative in their name.
>
>At the moment, the damned Tories, look way to the left of this bunch
>of neo-Facist, Brownie-shirted, control-freaks we have ruining/running
>the country.

   Can't find anything to argue about there .... !

-- 

Jim, G4RGA

Ne me demande pas pour qui sonne la cloche,
de crainte qu'elle sonne pour toi.

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 21:04:59 +0100, Hils  wrote:

>lucifer@eternal-flames.gov wrote
>
>>"You know what the fellow said, in Italy, for thirty years under the
>>Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they
>>produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In
>>Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of
>>democracy and peace—and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."
>>               (© Orson Welles in 'The Third Man')
>
>That's colourful but irrelevant, and incorrect: the cuckoo clock was 
>invented in Germany. (And arguably Germany would be a better example: 
>Bach, Beethoven, Goethe, Wagner, the Third Reich.) Any of Swiss 
>democracy, Italian art, German music or French cuisine would be an 
>improvement (with considerable scope for alternatives: Italian cuisine 
>or French music would also be acceptable), but Britain has nothing 
>remotely comparable. It's less democratic then anywhere else in Europe, 
>and what it parades as culture is based almost entirely on the remnants 
>of feudalism, monarchy and an empire built from the subjugation of 
>people so technologically backward they hadn't a hope of defending 
>themselves. Much of the worthwhile art which Britain has produced was 
>learned from Europeans.
>
>Cultural desert, democratic fraud, now economic basket-case. Britain's 
>scored a hat-trick! :-)

   ... as well as a culinary wilderness.

-- 

Jim, G4RGA

Ne me demande pas pour qui sonne la cloche,
de crainte qu'elle sonne pour toi.

"Jim"  wrote in message 
news:lit184dlc0ccv5hdq8tme9g7h1upmc69g5@4ax.com...
.
>>
>>At the moment, the damned Tories, look way to the left of this bunch
>>of neo-Facist, Brownie-shirted, control-freaks we have ruining/running
>>the country.
>
>   Can't find anything to argue about there .... !
>
> -- 
>
> Jim, G4RGA

Funny that Jim, you can normally start an argument in an empty room ;o)

-- 
73
Graham
-- ----- -.-- ... ..-

On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 21:08:43 +0100, "Graham M0YSU"  wrote:

>"Jim"  wrote in message 
>news:lit184dlc0ccv5hdq8tme9g7h1upmc69g5@4ax.com...
>.
>>>
>>>At the moment, the damned Tories, look way to the left of this bunch
>>>of neo-Facist, Brownie-shirted, control-freaks we have ruining/running
>>>the country.
>>
>>   Can't find anything to argue about there .... !

>Funny that Jim, you can normally start an argument in an empty room ;o)

   Indeed. I can start an argument with myself as well,
quite easily.

-- 

Jim, G4RGA

Ne me demande pas pour qui sonne la cloche,
de crainte qu'elle sonne pour toi.

wrote in message 
news:ffc0849866f18vq4agk95huo7utj13jf70@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 23:03:51 +0100, Hils 
> wrote:
>
>>Quite. IIRC America has invaded more sovereign states than did Nazi
>>Germany.
>
> Historically, that's still far fewer than the number of countries
> which Britain invaded...  They're just playing catch-up.
> Nick.
>
>
We can't be responsible for what out great great grandfathers did.
Only what we do now

I assume that as Tony Bliar only had a indirect line to god through
the Pope, whereas Dubbya had a direct line.
That Tonys line was noisy when he asked god if he should invade Iraq?

Steve Terry

"Brian Morrison"  wrote in message 
news:g5qc1r$hkh$4@news.datemas.de...
> Steve Terry wrote:
>
>> Becoming the 51st state of the USA and so adopting their written
>> constitution, is the only way things could radically change.
>
> Except that they've effectively just binned the 4th amendment and no
> doubt heading down the road of neutering more of the other clauses and
> amendments. No guarantee that the Supreme Court will strike these
> changes down either.
> Brian
>
It depends who's supreme court, if the republicans remain in power
then the supreme court will stay loaded with republicans,
and well get more of the same.

I liked the TV reporter who asked Barack Obama just after he'd won the 
democrat leadership
"Has the democrat party snatched defeat from the jaws of success?"

As it did last time when selecting the unelectable Kelly

These are sad days for the credibility of the US, as were they were
in Nixons time, but times will change

Steve Terry

On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 17:31:34 +0100, "Steve Terry" 
wrote:


>We can't be responsible for what out great great grandfathers did.
>Only what we do now 

Tell that to Blair, Brown, Livingston and the other assorted
vegetables who insisted on apologising for slavery last year.

Nick.

lucifer@eternal-flames.gov       wrote:

>"Steve Terry"  wrote:
>
>>We can't be responsible for what out great great grandfathers did.
>>Only what we do now 
>
>Tell that to Blair, Brown, Livingston and the other assorted
>vegetables who insisted on apologising for slavery last year.
>
>Nick.

They only apologised for the black-slave trade.

They seem to have been struck dumb when it comes to acknowledging the
white-slave trade.


-- 

 from
 Aero Spike

wrote in message 
news:697484d28g8pgeg8a1supuofhg0sgjf0k4@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 17:31:34 +0100, "Steve Terry" 
> wrote:
>
>>We can't be responsible for what out great great grandfathers did.
>>Only what we do now
>
> Tell that to Blair, Brown, Livingston and the other assorted
> vegetables who insisted on apologising for slavery last year.
> Nick.
>
Slavery we abolished with the slave trade act of 1807?

Which was really an excuse for the royal navy to capture slave ships
for booty, and offer the slaves the kings shilling, only exchanging
one form of slavery for another.

The French should have apologised first for the Norman invasion
of 1066, and before that the Norwegians and Danes should have
apologised for the Viking invasions

And the Romans should go home

Steve Terry

"Hils"  wrote in message 
news:BP9AEv4MEmgIFw7P@newearth.demon.co.uk...
> Steve Terry wrote
>
>>We can't be responsible for what out great great grandfathers did.
>>Only what we do now
>
> We already are. Statistically, the offspring of wealthy parents can do 
> pretty much whatever they like, while the offspring of poor parents are 
> pretty much fukced. And it's become worse since Nu-Labor gained power.
> Hil
>
>
I don't think you can blame Noo labour for that, but you could blame
them for doing little about it.

Blair and Gordo wittered on about eliminating poverty, to do that
you need to raise wages.
Allowing in unlimited numbers of new EU workers don't do it!

If Noo labour really wanted to eliminate poverty it's simple,
raise the minimum wage to ten quid
Yes it probably would lose a million low paid jobs, but so what?
Putting real spending money in the pockets of workers is what really 
matters.

Steve Terry

Steve Terry wrote:

> And the Romans should go home

Taking all the things they didn't do for us with them....

-- 

Brian

Steve Terry wrote:
> "Brian Morrison"  wrote in message 
> news:g5qc1r$hkh$4@news.datemas.de...
>> Steve Terry wrote:
>>
>>> Becoming the 51st state of the USA and so adopting their written
>>> constitution, is the only way things could radically change.
>> Except that they've effectively just binned the 4th amendment and no
>> doubt heading down the road of neutering more of the other clauses and
>> amendments. No guarantee that the Supreme Court will strike these
>> changes down either.
>> Brian
>>
> It depends who's supreme court, if the republicans remain in power
> then the supreme court will stay loaded with republicans,
> and well get more of the same.

That's a damning indictment on its own; supreme courts should be filled
with people of independent thought and be allowed to make the correct
decision without pressure. Filling them up with conservatives is a bad
idea although in general the people appointed are smart enough to
realise that they have a real job to do.

> 
> I liked the TV reporter who asked Barack Obama just after he'd won the 
> democrat leadership
> "Has the democrat party snatched defeat from the jaws of success?"
> 
> As it did last time when selecting the unelectable Kelly
> 
> These are sad days for the credibility of the US, as were they were
> in Nixons time, but times will change

It's difficult to get a genuine altruist elected, and you actually only
want a certain amount of altruism backed up with other qualities.

-- 

Brian