On Jun 29, 5:57 pm, "Steve Terry"  wrote:
> "Ian Jackson"  wrote in message
>
> news:WUkRmFujo7ZIFwgS@g3ohx.demon.co.uk...
>
> > In message <TiO9k.48239$Kb.8...@newsfe29.ams2>, Jimbo ...Every Silver
> > Lining Has A Cloud  writes
> >>Shit happens, I think the police do a great job....Friday night I was
> >>protected by them through the night while doing my job from druggies,
> >>drunken yobs and middle aged drunks who wanted to pick a fight because
> >>they
> >>were slightly inconvenienced .........and they also got a drunk driver
> >>that
> >>followed a police car through a road closure...dunk, no licence, no
> >>insurance and it wasn't his car .....
>
> > That's the sad thing. Most of the time, the police do a great job. You
> > want to support them, for them to be on your side against the villains,
> > and to uphold the law of the land. But this sort of occurrence, however
> > rare, does make you wonder where we have gone in this green and pleasant
> > land of ours.
> > Ian
>
> That's easy, we have gone where the Treasury has secretly taken us.
>
> Years of intentional underfunding of all internal policing on the basis
> that most people are law abiding, so why spend money?
>
> and the rest we can leave to civil law and local authorities, hence the
> massive increase in private security, worthless PCSOs and bailiffs, etc.
>
> Shifting spending from the tax payer, to private companies
> and local council rate payers, but for far less effectiveness
>
> Steve Terry


PCSO's are regularly walking around my town, the incidence of yob
behavior  has plummeted, more power to their elbows!

"Lurcherman"  wrote in message
news:fca97e2f-f8ff-43c2-9a45-9e96c0efacfe@34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 29, 5:57 pm, "Steve Terry"  wrote:
>> "Ian Jackson"  wrote in message
>> news:WUkRmFujo7ZIFwgS@g3ohx.demon.co.uk...
>> > In message <TiO9k.48239$Kb.8...@newsfe29.ams2>, Jimbo ...Every Silver
>> > Lining Has A Cloud  writes
<snip>
>> and the rest we can leave to civil law and local authorities, hence the
>> massive increase in private security, worthless PCSOs and bailiffs, etc.
>> Shifting spending from the tax payer, to private companies
>> and local council rate payers, but for far less effectiveness
>> Steve Terry
>
> PCSO's are regularly walking around my town, the incidence of yob
> behaviour  has plummeted, more power to their elbows!
>
Last year i was on a narrow boat cruise when a nutter with a big stick
on the toe path threatened us, so called 3 9s.

A few mins later 3 PSCOs on bikes turned up took one look,
and bravely rode away to find 3 real cops, who with a combined strength
of 6 of them armed only with CS gas and batons, took on the guy
and arrested him.

They are only valets for real police

Steve Terry

In message <g48o72$rc2$2@news.albasani.net>, Steve Terry 
 writes
>
>"Lurcherman"  wrote in message
>news:fca97e2f-f8ff-43c2-9a45-9e96c0efacfe@34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>> On Jun 29, 5:57 pm, "Steve Terry"  wrote:
>>> "Ian Jackson"  wrote in message
>>> news:WUkRmFujo7ZIFwgS@g3ohx.demon.co.uk...
>>> > In message <TiO9k.48239$Kb.8...@newsfe29.ams2>, Jimbo ...Every Silver
>>> > Lining Has A Cloud  writes
><snip>
>>> and the rest we can leave to civil law and local authorities, hence the
>>> massive increase in private security, worthless PCSOs and bailiffs, etc.
>>> Shifting spending from the tax payer, to private companies
>>> and local council rate payers, but for far less effectiveness
>>> Steve Terry
>>
>> PCSO's are regularly walking around my town, the incidence of yob
>> behaviour  has plummeted, more power to their elbows!
>>
>Last year i was on a narrow boat cruise when a nutter with a big stick
>on the toe path threatened us, so called 3 9s.
>
>A few mins later 3 PSCOs on bikes turned up took one look,
>and bravely rode away to find 3 real cops, who with a combined strength
>of 6 of them armed only with CS gas and batons, took on the guy
>and arrested him.
>
>They are only valets for real police
>
They were probably 'more readily available' than the real cops. At least 
they assessed the situation correctly and knew where to find three real 
cops. The matter was then dealt with effectively. If they hadn't been 
available, you might have had to wait a lot longer for the real cops to 
arrive.

Rather that thinking of PCSOs as 'valets', maybe they should be thought 
of as 'eyes and ears'. I'd rather have a PCSO than a long wait.
-- 
Ian

"Ian Jackson"  wrote in message 
news:yovYZXIMo+ZIFw3w@g3ohx.demon.co.uk...
> In message <g48o72$rc2$2@news.albasani.net>, Steve Terry 
>  writes
>>
>>"Lurcherman"  wrote in message
>>news:fca97e2f-f8ff-43c2-9a45-9e96c0efacfe@34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Jun 29, 5:57 pm, "Steve Terry"  wrote:
>>>> "Ian Jackson"  wrote in message
>>>> news:WUkRmFujo7ZIFwgS@g3ohx.demon.co.uk...
>>>> > In message <TiO9k.48239$Kb.8...@newsfe29.ams2>, Jimbo ...Every Silver
>>>> > Lining Has A Cloud  writes
>><snip>
>>>> and the rest we can leave to civil law and local authorities, hence the
>>>> massive increase in private security, worthless PCSOs and bailiffs, 
>>>> etc.
>>>> Shifting spending from the tax payer, to private companies
>>>> and local council rate payers, but for far less effectiveness
>>>> Steve Terry
>>>
>>> PCSO's are regularly walking around my town, the incidence of yob
>>> behaviour  has plummeted, more power to their elbows!
>>>
>>Last year i was on a narrow boat cruise when a nutter with a big stick
>>on the toe path threatened us, so called 3 9s.
>>
>>A few mins later 3 PSCOs on bikes turned up took one look,
>>and bravely rode away to find 3 real cops, who with a combined strength
>>of 6 of them armed only with CS gas and batons, took on the guy
>>and arrested him.
>>
>>They are only valets for real police
>>
> They were probably 'more readily available' than the real cops. At least 
> they assessed the situation correctly and knew where to find three real 
> cops. The matter was then dealt with effectively. If they hadn't been 
> available, you might have had to wait a lot longer for the real cops to 
> arrive.
>
> Rather that thinking of PCSOs as 'valets', maybe they should be thought of 
> as 'eyes and ears'. I'd rather have a PCSO than a long wait.
> Ian
>
>
Why should they need eyes and ears? that's what phones are for
If they had sent real plods when we called 3 9s,
the PCSOs would still be on their bikes

I'd rather have real plods, who the hell wouldn't ??

They only exist because of compartmentalised accounting.
Which is thanks to the invention of the spreadsheet, which
accounts for the price of everything, and the value of nothing.

Steve Terry

On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:01:16 +0100, Ian Jackson
 wrote:


>>A few mins later 3 PSCOs on bikes turned up took one look,
>>and bravely rode away to find 3 real cops, who with a combined strength
>>of 6 of them armed only with CS gas and batons, took on the guy
>>and arrested him.
>>
>>They are only valets for real police
>>
>They were probably 'more readily available' than the real cops. At least 
>they assessed the situation correctly and knew where to find three real 
>cops. The matter was then dealt with effectively. If they hadn't been 
>available, you might have had to wait a lot longer for the real cops to 
>arrive.
>
>Rather that thinking of PCSOs as 'valets', maybe they should be thought 
>of as 'eyes and ears'. I'd rather have a PCSO than a long wait.

I'd rather have one real police constable turn up, than three police
constable substitutes.

Nick.

In message <g48qat$vl0$1@news.albasani.net>, Steve Terry 
 writes
>
>"Ian Jackson"  wrote in message
>news:yovYZXIMo+ZIFw3w@g3ohx.demon.co.uk...
>> In message <g48o72$rc2$2@news.albasani.net>, Steve Terry
>>  writes
>>>
>>>"Lurcherman"  wrote in message
>>>news:fca97e2f-f8ff-43c2-9a45-9e96c0efacfe@34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>>> On Jun 29, 5:57 pm, "Steve Terry"  wrote:
>>>>> "Ian Jackson"  wrote in message
>>>>> news:WUkRmFujo7ZIFwgS@g3ohx.demon.co.uk...
>>>>> > In message <TiO9k.48239$Kb.8...@newsfe29.ams2>, Jimbo ...Every Silver
>>>>> > Lining Has A Cloud  writes
>>><snip>
>>>>> and the rest we can leave to civil law and local authorities, hence the
>>>>> massive increase in private security, worthless PCSOs and bailiffs,
>>>>> etc.
>>>>> Shifting spending from the tax payer, to private companies
>>>>> and local council rate payers, but for far less effectiveness
>>>>> Steve Terry
>>>>
>>>> PCSO's are regularly walking around my town, the incidence of yob
>>>> behaviour  has plummeted, more power to their elbows!
>>>>
>>>Last year i was on a narrow boat cruise when a nutter with a big stick
>>>on the toe path threatened us, so called 3 9s.
>>>
>>>A few mins later 3 PSCOs on bikes turned up took one look,
>>>and bravely rode away to find 3 real cops, who with a combined strength
>>>of 6 of them armed only with CS gas and batons, took on the guy
>>>and arrested him.
>>>
>>>They are only valets for real police
>>>
>> They were probably 'more readily available' than the real cops. At least
>> they assessed the situation correctly and knew where to find three real
>> cops. The matter was then dealt with effectively. If they hadn't been
>> available, you might have had to wait a lot longer for the real cops to
>> arrive.
>>
>> Rather that thinking of PCSOs as 'valets', maybe they should be thought of
>> as 'eyes and ears'. I'd rather have a PCSO than a long wait.
>> Ian
>>
>>
>Why should they need eyes and ears? that's what phones are for
>If they had sent real plods when we called 3 9s,
>the PCSOs would still be on their bikes
>
>I'd rather have real plods, who the hell wouldn't ??
>
>They only exist because of compartmentalised accounting.
>Which is thanks to the invention of the spreadsheet, which
>accounts for the price of everything, and the value of nothing.
>
We'd all prefer real cops to PCSOs, but PCSOs come a lot cheaper. [I've 
realised that that's a profound statement, that is. There's probably a 
better chance that the PCSOs will 'come'.] What's the exchange rate of a 
PCSO wrt a PC?
-- 
Ian

On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:30:44 +0100, Ian Jackson
 wrote:

>We'd all prefer real cops to PCSOs, but PCSOs come a lot cheaper. [I've 
>realised that that's a profound statement, that is. There's probably a 
>better chance that the PCSOs will 'come'.] What's the exchange rate of a 
>PCSO wrt a PC?

The real problem, the problem that is going to cause major headaches
all round in the next few years, is because police management and
recruiting policy, faced with a need to meet Joe Public's demands to
have more officers, are now replacing trained and highly experienced
police officers whenever they can, with the much cheaper, grossly
undertrained PCSOs.   It makes it much easier to balance police
budgets and keep corrupt politicians happy.

In essence it's yet another form of dumbing down - just as classroom
assistants are increasingly being used to do jobs which should be done
by school-teachers and ward auxiliaries are replacing qualified nurses
on hospital wards, etc.
  
We've devalued knowledge and experience to such an extent, that it is
now regarded as an unwanted luxury.

So we have thick kids leaving schools clutching often worthless
certificates attesting to their qualification in sod-all - it's not
unknown for those same kids to be incapable of even reading the  what
the certificate says - and for the most part, all down to the fact
nobody in the school has noticed they weren't learning anything.

We have patients coming out of hospitals sicker than they went in
thanks to some super-bug which common-sense hygienic practices would
have done away with, but for the fact that nobody bothered to instruct
the ward staff in such hygiene.

Ho-bleedin'-hum.

Nick..

Lurcherman wrote:

> On Jun 29, 5:57 pm, "Steve Terry"  wrote:
> 
>>"Ian Jackson"  wrote in message
>>
>>news:WUkRmFujo7ZIFwgS@g3ohx.demon.co.uk...
>>
>>
>>>In message <TiO9k.48239$Kb.8...@newsfe29.ams2>, Jimbo ...Every Silver
>>>Lining Has A Cloud  writes
>>>
>>>>Shit happens, I think the police do a great job....Friday night I was
>>>>protected by them through the night while doing my job from druggies,
>>>>drunken yobs and middle aged drunks who wanted to pick a fight because
>>>>they
>>>>were slightly inconvenienced .........and they also got a drunk driver
>>>>that
>>>>followed a police car through a road closure...dunk, no licence, no
>>>>insurance and it wasn't his car .....
>>
>>>That's the sad thing. Most of the time, the police do a great job. You
>>>want to support them, for them to be on your side against the villains,
>>>and to uphold the law of the land. But this sort of occurrence, however
>>>rare, does make you wonder where we have gone in this green and pleasant
>>>land of ours.
>>>Ian
>>
>>That's easy, we have gone where the Treasury has secretly taken us.
>>
>>Years of intentional underfunding of all internal policing on the basis
>>that most people are law abiding, so why spend money?
>>
>>and the rest we can leave to civil law and local authorities, hence the
>>massive increase in private security, worthless PCSOs and bailiffs, etc.
>>
>>Shifting spending from the tax payer, to private companies
>>and local council rate payers, but for far less effectiveness
>>
>>Steve Terry
> 
> 
> 
> PCSO's are regularly walking around my town, the incidence of yob
> behavior  has plummeted, more power to their elbows!

I haven't seen my local one in 9 months now and I am still contributing 
to his wage.

Dave

Steve Terry wrote:

> "Ian Jackson"  wrote in message 
> news:yovYZXIMo+ZIFw3w@g3ohx.demon.co.uk...
> 
>>In message <g48o72$rc2$2@news.albasani.net>, Steve Terry 
>> writes
>>
>>>"Lurcherman"  wrote in message
>>>news:fca97e2f-f8ff-43c2-9a45-9e96c0efacfe@34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>>On Jun 29, 5:57 pm, "Steve Terry"  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>"Ian Jackson"  wrote in message
>>>>>news:WUkRmFujo7ZIFwgS@g3ohx.demon.co.uk...
>>>>>
>>>>>>In message <TiO9k.48239$Kb.8...@newsfe29.ams2>, Jimbo ...Every Silver
>>>>>>Lining Has A Cloud  writes
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>>and the rest we can leave to civil law and local authorities, hence the
>>>>>massive increase in private security, worthless PCSOs and bailiffs, 
>>>>>etc.
>>>>>Shifting spending from the tax payer, to private companies
>>>>>and local council rate payers, but for far less effectiveness
>>>>>Steve Terry
>>>>
>>>>PCSO's are regularly walking around my town, the incidence of yob
>>>>behaviour  has plummeted, more power to their elbows!
>>>>
>>>
>>>Last year i was on a narrow boat cruise when a nutter with a big stick
>>>on the toe path threatened us, so called 3 9s.
>>>
>>>A few mins later 3 PSCOs on bikes turned up took one look,
>>>and bravely rode away to find 3 real cops, who with a combined strength
>>>of 6 of them armed only with CS gas and batons, took on the guy
>>>and arrested him.
>>>
>>>They are only valets for real police
>>>
>>
>>They were probably 'more readily available' than the real cops. At least 
>>they assessed the situation correctly and knew where to find three real 
>>cops. The matter was then dealt with effectively. If they hadn't been 
>>available, you might have had to wait a lot longer for the real cops to 
>>arrive.
>>
>>Rather that thinking of PCSOs as 'valets', maybe they should be thought of 
>>as 'eyes and ears'. I'd rather have a PCSO than a long wait.
>>Ian
>>
>>
> 
> Why should they need eyes and ears? that's what phones are for
> If they had sent real plods when we called 3 9s,
> the PCSOs would still be on their bikes
> 
> I'd rather have real plods, who the hell wouldn't ??
> 
> They only exist because of compartmentalised accounting.
> Which is thanks to the invention of the spreadsheet, which
> accounts for the price of everything, and the value of nothing.

I didn't think that Gordon was that clever, or was it down to his team 
to tell him?

Dave

"Ian Jackson"  wrote in message 
news:zpxI58K0D$ZIFwH1@g3ohx.demon.co.uk...
> In message <g48qat$vl0$1@news.albasani.net>, Steve Terry 
>  writes
>>
>>"Ian Jackson"  wrote in message
>>news:yovYZXIMo+ZIFw3w@g3ohx.demon.co.uk...
>>> In message <g48o72$rc2$2@news.albasani.net>, Steve Terry
>>>  writes
>>>>
>>>>"Lurcherman"  wrote in message
>>>>news:fca97e2f-f8ff-43c2-9a45-9e96c0efacfe@34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> On Jun 29, 5:57 pm, "Steve Terry"  wrote:
>>>>>> "Ian Jackson"  wrote in 
>>>>>> message
>>>>>> news:WUkRmFujo7ZIFwgS@g3ohx.demon.co.uk...
>>>>>> > In message <TiO9k.48239$Kb.8...@newsfe29.ams2>, Jimbo ...Every 
>>>>>> > Silver
>>>>>> > Lining Has A Cloud  writes
>>>><snip>
>>Why should they need eyes and ears? that's what phones are for
>>If they had sent real plods when we called 3 9s,
>>the PCSOs would still be on their bikes
>>
>>I'd rather have real plods, who the hell wouldn't ??
>>
>>They only exist because of compartmentalised accounting.
>>Which is thanks to the invention of the spreadsheet, which
>>accounts for the price of everything, and the value of nothing.
>>
> We'd all prefer real cops to PCSOs, but PCSOs come a lot cheaper. [I've 
> realised that that's a profound statement, that is. There's probably a 
> better chance that the PCSOs will 'come'.] What's the exchange rate of a 
> PCSO wrt a PC?
> Ian
>
>
The exchange rate is 1 PC = an infinite number of PCSOs as they don't
have the power of arrest, just as well as most PCSOs would be downright
dangerous if they did.

Other countries have realised that no matter what the cost they have to find
the funds for policing, New York did it, when i visited there it seemed they
had a cop on every street corner, and more importantly a prison place for
every criminal convicted

Here we are up against The Treasury, who live not in the real world
but in the rarefied air of Whitehall

Steve Terry

lucifer@eternal-flames.gov wrote:

> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:30:44 +0100, Ian Jackson
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>>We'd all prefer real cops to PCSOs, but PCSOs come a lot cheaper. [I've 
>>realised that that's a profound statement, that is. There's probably a 
>>better chance that the PCSOs will 'come'.] What's the exchange rate of a 
>>PCSO wrt a PC?
> 
> 
> The real problem, the problem that is going to cause major headaches
> all round in the next few years, is because police management and
> recruiting policy, faced with a need to meet Joe Public's demands to
> have more officers, are now replacing trained and highly experienced
> police officers whenever they can, with the much cheaper, grossly
> undertrained PCSOs.

No, this came about with Blairs targets.

    It makes it much easier to balance police
> budgets and keep corrupt politicians happy.

Can't argue with the corrupt politicians here  :-(

> In essence it's yet another form of dumbing down - just as classroom
> assistants are increasingly being used to do jobs which should be done
> by school-teachers

In the primary school, where I have worked and experienced teaching 
assistants, they only get those children that are struggling to read and 
do basic maths. The school was in what is designated as a special needs 
area. The children were allows polite to me and I learned later a lot of 
them liked me, due to the way I talked and treated them.

I once passed a group of children that were being told a tale that 
involved living by the seaside. The teacher said something about the 
seashore and one child asked why it was called the seashore and she said 
that she did not know. I said to her that it was the part of the shore 
that was covered at high tide and uncovered at low tide. Was I right or 
wrong?


> and ward auxiliaries are replacing qualified nurses
> on hospital wards, etc.

MIL was an aux, but she was a bloody good well trained one. In those 
days, she was not allowed to wear her uniform outside of the ward and 
all uniforms were cleaned by the hospital, not at home on a cool wash 
and worn to work in a dirty environment to work.
>   
> We've devalued knowledge and experience to such an extent, that it is
> now regarded as an unwanted luxury.

It's the same with every skill these days. BAe, who I used to work for, 
are advertising for skilled men of all grades. They want 2000 men to 
fill posts from an order that is immanent.

> So we have thick kids leaving schools clutching often worthless
> certificates attesting to their qualification in sod-all - it's not
> unknown for those same kids to be incapable of even reading the  what
> the certificate says - and for the most part, all down to the fact
> nobody in the school has noticed they weren't learning anything.

Yet the pub that I drink in at lunchtime has several girls behind the 
bar that are exceptionally bright and confident, at ages of between 15 
to 20.

> We have patients coming out of hospitals sicker than they went in
> thanks to some super-bug which common-sense hygienic practices would
> have done away with, but for the fact that nobody bothered to instruct
> the ward staff in such hygiene.

Another  reason to bring back Matron. What I say, is sack all the 
hangers on and let the wards be run by the staff that staff them.

> Ho-bleedin'-hum.

No, that is defeatism. It might be good for trade, but not for wives, 
husbands, grand children, sons and daughters, G children, g grand 
children should I live that long.

Dave

On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:41:56 +0100, Dave 
wrote:


>In the primary school, where I have worked and experienced teaching 
>assistants, they only get those children that are struggling to read and 
>do basic maths.

I would suggest those are the very children who might benefit most
from qualified and experienced teachers who know what they're doing,
rather than parking them in a class-room lay-by and assigning
under-trained ancillary staff to keep them looking busy.


>Yet the pub that I drink in at lunchtime has several girls behind the 
>bar that are exceptionally bright and confident, at ages of between 15 
>to 20.

Sadly, working behind a bar will probably be the height of achievement
for those girls. Or tossing burgers in the local  Mc'

>No, that is defeatism. It might be good for trade, but not for wives, 
>husbands, grand children, sons and daughters, G children, g grand 
>children should I live that long.

An answer is to do as increasing numbers are doing. Vote with your
feet and emigrate.
   

Nick.

On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:10:23 +0100, "Steve Terry" 
wrote:

>Other countries have realised that no matter what the cost they have to find
>the funds for policing, New York did it, when i visited there it seemed they
>had a cop on every street corner, and more importantly a prison place for
>every criminal convicted

But that costs money.  Money which Guv-U-Like UK would sooner waste,
giving in aid, to countries like India - which has a far higher
percentage of millionaires and billionaires in its population than we
do and where as in Britain, the government doesn't believe in
correctly taxing those millionaires/billionaires, no doubt for the
same reason of Hamiltons being stuffed into politician's numbered
bank-accounts.  

Here - Labour in government - have a long history of getting rid of
the expensive real police and replacing them with the laughable
creations like PCSOs, traffic wardens and other cut-price privatised
police.  In some cases they can get three or four animated uniforms on
the streets, for the price of one
 
What does it matter if court cases are thrown out due to inadequate
police preparation, resulting in conviction rates falling for various
crimes. The government can always bring in new laws and modify
existing laws to ensure the burden of proof for convictions is lowered
and in some cases removed.  That'll put the conviction rate back
up.... Won't it?

Does it matter if 10-20 years down the line. we have the appeal court
striking out unsafe convictions, just as they did in the mid to late
50s as a result of unsafe convictions from the Atlee era,  Or as
happened again in the mid 80s as a result of miscarraiges of justice
under Wilson/Callaghan in the mid 1970s.

Blair/Brown will just be footnotes to political history by then.
Follow that with 10-20 years of other government(s) and no doubt
forgetful and ever gullible Joe Public, will be happy to vote Labour
in to mess everything up yet again..

As I said...  Ho-bleedin'-hum.

Nick.

"Dave"  wrote in message 
news:04udnYjR2-sokvXVRVnyiQA@bt.com...
> lucifer@eternal-flames.gov wrote:
> In the primary school, where I have worked and experienced teaching 
> assistants,

G6KHP had the same job as Ian Huntley, then?

wrote in message 
news:ajsf64tr4cjdfsnjgv6k7sh2vfcgfnjg38@4ax.com...
 >
> In essence it's yet another form of dumbing down - just as classroom
> assistants are increasingly being used to do jobs which should be done
> by school-teachers

And this sweeping statement is based on what exactly?

The rules on who can teach are actually "tightening". As of next term, the 
use of unqualified teachers (inc. those who hold overseas qualifications 
only) will be banned.  This is long overdue but will leave some schools 
understaffed come Sept.

LSAs provide support, usually to specific pupils. In fact, they are 
generally employed to support that pupil only.

Schools are increasingly using "Cover supervisors" so that qualified 
teachers are not diverted to "fill in" for illness etc and can focus on 
their core subjects.

--
73
Brian
www.g8osn.org.uk

"Brian Reay"  wrote in message 
news:Yi_9k.51570$ft1.24859@newsfe14.ams2...
>  wrote in message 
> news:ajsf64tr4cjdfsnjgv6k7sh2vfcgfnjg38@4ax.com...
> >
>> In essence it's yet another form of dumbing down - just as classroom
>> assistants are increasingly being used to do jobs which should be done
>> by school-teachers
>
> And this sweeping statement is based on what exactly?

The use of floor sweepers, such as Ian Huntley and G6KHP, as teaching 
assistants?

The poor standard of teachers whereby even those that have
a history of publishing racially-aggravated bestial pornography
into a NG to which children have access are allowed
to be teachers?

On Jun 30, 6:33 am, "12 WPM Class A" <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> "Dave"  wrote in message
>
> news:04udnYjR2-sokvXVRVnyiQA@bt.com...
>
> > luci...@eternal-flames.gov wrote:
> > In the primary school, where I have worked and experienced teaching
> > assistants,
>
> G6KHP had the same job as Ian Huntley, then?


Trust gareth to lower the standards of an interesting discussion

"Lurcherman"  wrote in message
news:d5badda5-0c5c-480a-beb3->
> Trust gareth to lower the standards of an interesting discussion

There you go again with your gratuitous infantile interjections.

Were you blind to the continual offensive tirade from G6KHP, much
along the lines of the tirade by that silly child, G8GGP?

Stupid boy.

I await your next visit to Colerne with interest. Tell me where
to come and meet you, so that I can present you with
your dunce's cap?

On Jun 30, 7:28 am, "12 WPM Class A" <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> "Lurcherman"  wrote in message
>
> news:d5badda5-0c5c-480a-beb3->
>
> > Trust gareth to lower the standards of an interesting discussion
>
> There you go again with your gratuitous infantile interjections.
>
> Were you blind to the continual offensive tirade from G6KHP, much
> along the lines of the tirade by that silly child, G8GGP?
>
> Stupid boy.
>
> I await your next visit to Colerne with interest. Tell me where
> to come and meet you, so that I can present you with
> your dunce's cap?



I don't think that you would want to meet me gareth....

"Lurcherman"  wrote in message 
news:8857080c-25e4-44d6-890f-78a37c4164f8@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 30, 7:28 am, "12 WPM Class A" <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> "Lurcherman"  wrote in message
>> news:d5badda5-0c5c-480a-beb3->
>> > Trust gareth to lower the standards of an interesting discussion
>> There you go again with your gratuitous infantile interjections.
>> Were you blind to the continual offensive tirade from G6KHP, much
>> along the lines of the tirade by that silly child, G8GGP?
>> Stupid boy.
>> I await your next visit to Colerne with interest. Tell me where
>> to come and meet you, so that I can present you with
>> your dunce's cap?
>
> I don't think that you would want to meet me gareth....

Dealing with unruly children is always fraught, especially since the
law has favoured you in any account that you might give
about an encounter with adults.

On Jun 30, 7:43 am, "12 WPM Class A" <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> "Lurcherman"  wrote in message
>
> news:8857080c-25e4-44d6-890f-78a37c4164f8@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Jun 30, 7:28 am, "12 WPM Class A" <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >> "Lurcherman"  wrote in message
> >> news:d5badda5-0c5c-480a-beb3->
> >> > Trust gareth to lower the standards of an interesting discussion
> >> There you go again with your gratuitous infantile interjections.
> >> Were you blind to the continual offensive tirade from G6KHP, much
> >> along the lines of the tirade by that silly child, G8GGP?
> >> Stupid boy.
> >> I await your next visit to Colerne with interest. Tell me where
> >> to come and meet you, so that I can present you with
> >> your dunce's cap?
>
> > I don't think that you would want to meet me gareth....
>
> Dealing with unruly children is always fraught, especially since the
> law has favoured you in any account that you might give
> about an encounter with adults.



Of course I had forgotten, you know all about little children don't
you gareth?

"Lurcherman"  wrote in message 
news:c99d34e3-0425-442d-8f1d-1654f7799563@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>On Jun 30, 7:43 am, "12 WPM Class A" <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> "Lurcherman"  wrote in message
>> news:8857080c-25e4-44d6-890f-78a37c4164f8@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>> > On Jun 30, 7:28 am, "12 WPM Class A" <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> >> "Lurcherman"  wrote in message
>> >> news:d5badda5-0c5c-480a-beb3->
>> >> > Trust gareth to lower the standards of an interesting discussion
>> >> There you go again with your gratuitous infantile interjections.
>> >> Were you blind to the continual offensive tirade from G6KHP, much
>> >> along the lines of the tirade by that silly child, G8GGP?
>> >> Stupid boy.
>> >> I await your next visit to Colerne with interest. Tell me where
>> >> to come and meet you, so that I can present you with
>> >> your dunce's cap?
>> > I don't think that you would want to meet me gareth....
>> Dealing with unruly children is always fraught, especially since the
>> law has favoured you in any account that you might give
>> about an encounter with adults.
> Of course I had forgotten, you know all about little children don't
>you gareth?

There you go again with your gratuitous infantile interjections.

Trust G8GGP to lower the standards of a discussion

In reply to your question, I know about you.

On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 06:38:02 +0100, "Brian Reay"
 wrote:

>
> wrote in message 
>news:ajsf64tr4cjdfsnjgv6k7sh2vfcgfnjg38@4ax.com...
> >
>> In essence it's yet another form of dumbing down - just as classroom
>> assistants are increasingly being used to do jobs which should be done
>> by school-teachers
>
>And this sweeping statement is based on what exactly?

2002:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/oct/18/schools.politics


2003:

http://tinyurl.com/55tbxa

http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,,874641,00.html


2004:

http://tinyurl.com/6fqcp8


2005:

www.bl.uk/welfarereform/issue76/schools.html


2007:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/education/article1652641.ece


2008:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7462691.stm

I could provide dozens more references for what my "sweeping statement
is based on," but you have a go with those few to start with.


Then maybe we'll try you with Ofsted/HMIE reports and similar from
DCSF (and its earlier guises).   

When I'm really bored, I read some of those...  You might try it
occasionally


>The rules on who can teach are actually "tightening". As of next term, the 
>use of unqualified teachers (inc. those who hold overseas qualifications 
>only) will be banned.  This is long overdue but will leave some schools 
>understaffed come Sept.

Tell me old son...  Why do you think the rules are being tightened?

Not a placebo thrown to the media by a government anxious to deflect
attention from the fact that not less, but MORE underqualified
class-room assistants will be doing the jobs which qualified teachers
should be doing

The use of unqualified teachers is now a hot topic with the media and
.gov is anxious to try and kick the issue into touch before we enter
the next pre-election phase.
 
"Long overdue" you say...  Well that's one thing you got right.
That's the law of averages for you.

Of course it will leave schools understaffed after the summer break. 
Some might argue the schools have already been understaffed for some
considerable time, but such understaffing has been disguised by using
unqualified and under-qualified persons in teaching roles.

The same way that understaffing and shortages of nurses in hospitals
is disguised by having unqualified people working on the wards and
undermanning in the police service is disguised by having animated
uniforms walking the streets instead of police constables.


Nick.

>
> An answer is to do as increasing numbers are doing. Vote with your
> feet and emigrate.
>
Ok, but where to ? it seems to be a common problem world wide.

It's a simple matter of money, companies aren't satisfied these days with 
making a reasonable profit to stay in business and invest in their future, 
they want to be global powers and so if we educate the populace to a high 
standard with common sense then these companies will have to pay them more, 
meaning less profit, less bonus for the management and less dividends for 
scrounging share holders.

Look at how many factories (if you can still find one) have operators now, 
at one time it would be a setter/operator. But having one or two machine 
setters in a department and a number of operators is cheaper than training 
all the operators to set their machines, so they employ monkies and pay them 
peanuts. The failing education system suit's modern day business practice.

>
>
> Trust gareth to lower the standards of an interesting discussion

If you all kill file him then he wouldn't have done, would he?

On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:29:57 +0100, "RT"  wrote:

>Ok, but where to ? it seems to be a common problem world wide.

Absolutely.  But as with everything else, we in Britain are not just
being ripped of by multinational companies, we're being ripped off by
our very own governments, which WE elected to protect our interests.

>It's a simple matter of money, companies aren't satisfied these days with 
>making a reasonable profit to stay in business and invest in their future, 
>they want to be global powers and so if we educate the populace to a high 
>standard with common sense then these companies will have to pay them more, 
>meaning less profit, less bonus for the management and less dividends for 
>scrounging share holders.

A situation not helped when you look closely at - for example - the
power and water utilities.

These are companies which the people of Britain already owned when the
.govs of the day decided to privatise them and sell them to the people
of Britain. 

Then .gov allows these newly privatised companies to take so-called
'contributions breaks' from paying into staff pension funds.  Whilst
the law is quickly changed to allow those same companies to make
donations to political parties - including the party of government. 

Then the companies decide to compulsorily buy in small share-holdings
form individual customers etc. Again with conniving from the .gov of
the day.  Shortly afterwards these shares are re-sold to foreign
investors on foreign markets.   Effectively transferring ownership of
the company abroad. 

Now it's a foreign company, with foreign shareholders, so with a few
more donations to the political party of government, it gets the nod
and the wink to jack up prices, providing more money to pay dividends
to keep those foreign shareholders happy.

>Look at how many factories (if you can still find one) have operators now, 
>at one time it would be a setter/operator. But having one or two machine 
>setters in a department and a number of operators is cheaper than training 
>all the operators to set their machines, so they employ monkies and pay them 
>peanuts. The failing education system suit's modern day business practice.

You've got it.  That's exactly the way it works.  You dumb down the
output from schools/universities.  You reduce and in many cases stop
altogether the concept of staff-training by employers.  Then after a
couple of years those employers can go to the government and request
that they be allowed to import foreign monkeys - as you say, paid
peanuts - because they can't recruit suitable employees from the UK.

Ho hum...

Nick.

lucifer@eternal-flames.gov wrote:

> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:41:56 +0100, Dave 
> wrote:

> Sadly, working behind a bar will probably be the height of achievement
> for those girls. Or tossing burgers in the local  Mc'

One is awaiting her degree and another is about to go to uni next term. 
One lad is doing a veterinary degree and as you know this is not a short 
3 year job. I expect to see him back in the next few days, for summer work.

Dave

Brian Reay wrote:

> 
>  wrote in message 
> news:ajsf64tr4cjdfsnjgv6k7sh2vfcgfnjg38@4ax.com...
>  >
> 
>> In essence it's yet another form of dumbing down - just as classroom
>> assistants are increasingly being used to do jobs which should be done
>> by school-teachers
> 
> 
> And this sweeping statement is based on what exactly?
> 
> The rules on who can teach are actually "tightening". As of next term, 
> the use of unqualified teachers (inc. those who hold overseas 
> qualifications only) will be banned.  This is long overdue but will 
> leave some schools understaffed come Sept.

That explains why the teaching assistants had to get qualifications a 
couple of years ago then.

Dave

"Dave"  wrote in message 
news:CsGdnYPljJ3RufTVnZ2dnUVZ8tHinZ2d@bt.com...
> lucifer@eternal-flames.gov wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:41:56 +0100, Dave 
>> wrote:
>
>> Sadly, working behind a bar will probably be the height of achievement
>> for those girls. Or tossing burgers in the local  Mc'
>
> One is awaiting her degree and another is about to go to uni next term. 
> One lad is doing a veterinary degree and as you know this is not a short 3 
> year job. I expect to see him back in the next few days, for summer work.

Which is the sort of outcome you expect if you encourage youngsters. It is 
the ones that are  "thrown some Lego" that end up in McJobs.

-- 
73
Brian, G8OSN
www.g8osn.org.uk

12 WPM Class A wrote:

> "Brian Reay"  wrote in message 
> news:Yi_9k.51570$ft1.24859@newsfe14.ams2...
> 
>> wrote in message 
>>news:ajsf64tr4cjdfsnjgv6k7sh2vfcgfnjg38@4ax.com...
>>
>>>In essence it's yet another form of dumbing down - just as classroom
>>>assistants are increasingly being used to do jobs which should be done
>>>by school-teachers
>>
>>And this sweeping statement is based on what exactly?
> 
> 
> The use of floor sweepers, such as Ian Huntley and G6KHP, as teaching 
> assistants?

?

> The poor standard of teachers whereby even those that have
> a history of publishing racially-aggravated bestial pornography
> into a NG to which children have access are allowed
> to be teachers? 

I'll take a bet that you would never get the level of security and 
police checks that I have then.

Dave

"Brian Reay" <see@website.invalid> wrote in message 
news:JB9ak.72122$GF6.25794@newsfe27.ams2...
>
> Which is the sort of outcome you expect if you encourage youngsters. It is 
> the ones that are  "thrown some Lego" that end up in McJobs.

Do you encourage youngsters to copulate with sheep as your
fixation published in this NG would indicate?

On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:01:16 +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:

> In message <g48o72$rc2$2@news.albasani.net>, Steve Terry
>  writes
>>
>>"Lurcherman"  wrote in message
>>news:fca97e2f-f8ff-43c2-9a45-9e96c0efacfe@34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Jun 29, 5:57 pm, "Steve Terry"  wrote:
>>>> "Ian Jackson"  wrote in
>>>> message news:WUkRmFujo7ZIFwgS@g3ohx.demon.co.uk...
>>>> > In message <TiO9k.48239$Kb.8...@newsfe29.ams2>, Jimbo ...Every
>>>> > Silver Lining Has A Cloud  writes
>><snip>
>>>> and the rest we can leave to civil law and local authorities, hence
>>>> the massive increase in private security, worthless PCSOs and
>>>> bailiffs, etc. Shifting spending from the tax payer, to private
>>>> companies and local council rate payers, but for far less
>>>> effectiveness Steve Terry
>>>
>>> PCSO's are regularly walking around my town, the incidence of yob
>>> behaviour  has plummeted, more power to their elbows!
>>>
>>Last year i was on a narrow boat cruise when a nutter with a big stick on
>>the toe path threatened us, so called 3 9s.
>>
>>A few mins later 3 PSCOs on bikes turned up took one look, and bravely
>>rode away to find 3 real cops, who with a combined strength of 6 of them
>>armed only with CS gas and batons, took on the guy and arrested him.
>>
>>They are only valets for real police
>>
> They were probably 'more readily available' than the real cops. At least
> they assessed the situation correctly and knew where to find three real
> cops. The matter was then dealt with effectively. If they hadn't been
> available, you might have had to wait a lot longer for the real cops to
> arrive.
> 
> Rather that thinking of PCSOs as 'valets', maybe they should be thought of
> as 'eyes and ears'. I'd rather have a PCSO than a long wait.

They are supposed to take you fsck'ing phone call seriously!


-- 
   ___  _______   ___    ___  ___  __  ____
  / _ \/ __/ _ | / _ \  / _ \/ _ |/ / / / /
 / // / _// __ |/ // / / ___/ __ / /_/ / /__
/____/___/_/ |_/____/ /_/  /_/ |_\____/____/

"Dead Paul" <dead_paul@no.reply> wrote in message 
news:g4bebd$kot$1@news.datemas.de...
> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:01:16 +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
>
>> In message <g48o72$rc2$2@news.albasani.net>, Steve Terry
>>  writes
>>>
>>>"Lurcherman"  wrote in message
>>>news:fca97e2f-f8ff-43c2-9a45-9e96c0efacfe@34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>>> On Jun 29, 5:57 pm, "Steve Terry"  wrote:
>>>>> "Ian Jackson"  wrote in
>>>>> message news:WUkRmFujo7ZIFwgS@g3ohx.demon.co.uk...
>>>>> > In message <TiO9k.48239$Kb.8...@newsfe29.ams2>, Jimbo ...Every
>>>>> > Silver Lining Has A Cloud  writes
>>><snip>
>>>Last year i was on a narrow boat cruise when a nutter with a big stick on
>>>the toe path threatened us, so called 3 9s.
>>>
>>>A few mins later 3 PSCOs on bikes turned up took one look, and bravely
>>>rode away to find 3 real cops, who with a combined strength of 6 of them
>>>armed only with CS gas and batons, took on the guy and arrested him.
>>>
>>>They are only valets for real police
>>>
>> They were probably 'more readily available' than the real cops. At least
>> they assessed the situation correctly and knew where to find three real
>> cops. The matter was then dealt with effectively. If they hadn't been
>> available, you might have had to wait a lot longer for the real cops to
>> arrive.
>>
>> Rather that thinking of PCSOs as 'valets', maybe they should be thought 
>> of
>> as 'eyes and ears'. I'd rather have a PCSO than a long wait.
>
> They are supposed to take you fsck'ing phone call seriously!
>
>
Indeed we phoned 3 9s not the local PCSO shop, so why did they send PCSOs 
first?

We could have been dead by the time the real plod arrived

Steve Terry