Here's an interesting article from the Telegraph:

"
Red wine stops effects of high-fat diet
By Roger Highfield, Science Editor
Last Updated: 1:01am BST 04/06/2008


Red wine does indeed explain why the French get away with a relatively
clean bill of heart health despite eating a diet loaded with saturated
fats, concludes a new study.

People living in France have a much lower incidence of coronary heart
disease than those in Britain, despite their similar intake of
saturated fats - a phenomenon known as the "French paradox".



Red wine contins resveratrol which can blunt the toxic effects of a
high-fat diet Many have speculated that answer to the paradox lies in
their love of a glass or two of wine with a meal and have focused on a
chemical found in red wine called resveratrol, also a natural
constituent of grapes, pomegranates and other foods.

Earlier studies have shown it can blunt the toxic effects of a diet
very high in fat, which causes liver damage, but this is the first
study to directly look at ageing.

Today, in the journal PLoS ONE, researchers report that even low doses
of resveratrol in the diet of middle-aged mice has a widespread
influence on the genetic levers of ageing, and may confer special
protection on the heart.

Specifically, the researchers found that low doses of resveratrol
mimic the helpful effects of what is known as caloric restriction,
diets with the full range of nutrients but up to 30 per cent fewer
calories than a typical diet, which extend lifespan and slow the
progression of age related diseases such as obesity, diabetes and
cancer.

"This brings down the dose of resveratrol toward the consumption
reality mode," says senior author Prof Richard Weindruch of the
University of Wisconsin-Madison.

But, importantly, resveratrol is just one of many "healthy chemicals",
called polyphenols in wine. Now, he says, it is possible to see how a
glass or two can have a health effect.

"Resveratrol mimics a significant fraction of the profile of caloric
restriction at the gene expression level," according to Prof Tomas
Prolla, coauthor

In the new study - which compared the gene use of animals on a
restricted diet with those fed small doses of resveratrol - the
similarities were remarkable, explains lead author Dr Jamie Barger of
Madison-based LifeGen Technologies.

In the heart, for example, there are at least 1,029 genes whose
functions change with age, and the organ's function is known to
diminish with age.

In animals on a restricted diet, 90 per cent of those heart genes
experienced altered gene expression profiles while low doses of
resveratrol thwarted age-related change in 92 per cent. The new
findings were associated with prevention of the decline in heart
function associated with ageing.

In short, a glass of wine or food or supplements that contain even
small doses of resveratrol are likely to represent "a robust
intervention in the retardation of cardiac ageing," the authors note.

The new resveratrol study is also important because it confirms
studies that show eating fewer calories, which has been shown in a
wide range of species to extend lifespan, and resveratrol may govern
the same master genetic pathways related to ageing.
"

On Jun 5, 9:02 am, Peter Brooks  wrote:
> Here's an interesting article from the Telegraph:
>
> "
> Red wine stops effects of high-fat diet
> By Roger Highfield, Science Editor
> Last Updated: 1:01am BST 04/06/2008
>
> Red wine does indeed explain why the French get away with a relatively
> clean bill of heart health despite eating a diet loaded with saturated
> fats, concludes a new study.

The study looked at middle aged mice! You would have to do extended
studies on the French before being able to come to this conclusion.

Maybe red wine is only good for mice. Maybe its variety of food and
stress free lifestyle that is good for the French? Or the fact that
they take philosophy seriously? Good weather? Or any of several other
factors or combinations.

> Today, in the journal PLoS ONE, researchers report that even low doses
> of resveratrol in the diet of middle-aged mice has a widespread
> influence on the genetic levers of ageing, and may confer special
> protection on the heart.

Douglas Adams was right to suggest that white mice actually run the
Earth. We ply them with free wine and give them the advantage of all
this advanced medical research on them! Lucky mice.

> In short, a glass of wine or food or supplements that contain even
> small doses of resveratrol are likely to represent "a robust
> intervention in the retardation of cardiac ageing," the authors note.

In mice! And only maybe. (I.e. might it be the greater attention the
mice get that increases their lifespan? Are their handlers happier and
more friendly (all that free wine going spare!)?

> The new resveratrol study is also important because it confirms
> studies that show eating fewer calories, which has been shown in a
> wide range of species to extend lifespan, and resveratrol may govern
> the same master genetic pathways related to ageing.

Guess of the week.

Prove it.

"Paul Grieg"  a écrit dans le message de news: 
fa007820-f353-4263-adc8-8322ec334676@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
| On Jun 5, 9:02 am, Peter Brooks  wrote:
| > Here's an interesting article from the Telegraph:
| > "
| > Red wine stops effects of high-fat diet
| > By Roger Highfield, Science Editor
| > Last Updated: 1:01am BST 04/06/2008
| >
| > Red wine does indeed explain why the French get away with a relatively
| > clean bill of heart health despite eating a diet loaded with saturated
| > fats, concludes a new study.
|
| The study looked at middle aged mice! You would have to do extended
| studies on the French before being able to come to this conclusion.

There have been rumours ref the alleged beneficial effects of red wine on the 
health of the French for donkeys' years now, nothing new there. Mostly spread by 
French males who particularly enjoy 'un petit rouge' whatever the time of day, I 
reckon! But there are substantial differences in diet - I have to contest the 
"loaded with saturated fats" French diet assertion - most kids for example eat 
loads of vegetables, salads and fruit in comparison to the Brits, in my 
experience.

| Maybe red wine is only good for mice. Maybe its variety of food and
| stress free lifestyle that is good for the French? Or the fact that
| they take philosophy seriously? Good weather? Or any of several other
| factors or combinations.

Stress-free... not so much these days. The gap's narrowing fast, but the French 
concept of quality of life still includes considerable emphasis on taking time 
to eat, to talk, to enjoy periods of leisure. Plus there is more emphasis on 
physical fitness at school.

Philosophy? Not sure about that these days, but yes they take some issues very 
seriously, and from a very early age too. I've seen 12 years olds waving banners 
at the school gates during a strike against proposed cuts in recent weeks.

Good weather... south of a line between La Rochelle and Lyon perhaps, but we've 
had a pretty awful May in the south of France this year ...

Still, in the light of this new research, I shall definitely be boosting my 
Burgundy intake ;-)

pga

X-No-Archive: yes

"PG"  wrote in message 
news:4847d99f$0$846$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...

> Good weather... south of a line between La Rochelle and Lyon perhaps, but 
> we've
> had a pretty awful May in the south of France this year ...

> Still, in the light of this new research, I shall definitely be boosting 
> my
> Burgundy intake ;-)


..a little off subject... but where are you, roughly..?


Mark

"mark"  a écrit dans le message de news: 
nOSdnemoLP1oR9rVnZ2dnUVZ8qydnZ2d@bt.com...
| X-No-Archive: yes
|
| "PG"  wrote in message
| news:4847d99f$0$846$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...
|
| > Good weather... south of a line between La Rochelle and Lyon perhaps, but
| > we've
| > had a pretty awful May in the south of France this year ...
|
| > Still, in the light of this new research, I shall definitely be boosting
| > my
| > Burgundy intake ;-)
|
| ..a little off subject... but where are you, roughly..?

In the Savoie (just down the valley from Val d'Isère) in the winter usually, 
then in the south near Avignon from late spring, but I'm away in SE Asia again 
soon, for a fair while. Missed out on the Savoie last winter to spend 6 months 
travelling around Thailand, Laos, Burma, Cambodia until mid-March, absolutely 
loved it there.

Another good reason to sample some decent Burgundy before I go ... I tried 
Chinese wine last time I was in SE Asia ... disgusting stuff! I was promised a 
major boost to my love life in a village somewhere in Laos, courtesy of some 
unidentifiable fire water with scorpions and cobras floating in the bottom of 
the bottle, but all I remember is a pounding headache and feeling sick on the 
elephant back to the lodgings, so I'll have to do some more extensive research 
in that area ;-)

pga

On Jun 5, 2:21 pm, "PG"  wrote:
>
>
> Still, in the light of this new research, I shall definitely be boosting my
> Burgundy intake ;-)
>
Even if you are sceptical of this because of the mouse angle (I must
say that I've been feeling much more mouse-like than before reading
the article), there are other health reasons for choking down more of
that dreadful red wine - arthritis for one. This is from the same
edition of the Telegraph (OK they've got some puritan in at the end
for 'balance' but you get the drift):

"
Five alcoholic drinks a week 'halves risk of arthritis'
By Kate Devlin
Last Updated: 1:36PM BST 05/06/2008
Drinking five or more alcoholic drinks a week can halve the risk of
developing rheumatoid arthritis, a new study shows.

Teetotallers are the most likely to develop the crippling joint
disease, which affects more than 400,000 people in Britain, scientists
found.

The risk of the disease decreases the more people drink, according to
the findings, published in the journal Annals of the Rheumatic
Diseases.

Researchers who led the study believe alcohol could protect against
the condition by reducing inflammation within the body, in a similar
way to how red wine helps protect the heart.

Scientists from the Karolinska Institute, in Stockholm, Sweden, looked
at the results of two major studies involving more than 2,750 people
in Scandinavia, which analysed environmental and genetic risk factors
for rheumatoid arthritis.

They found the more alcohol people regularly drank, the less likely
they were to develop the disease.

Those who drank more than 5 alcoholic drinks every week cut their
chances of developing the condition by between 40 and 50 per cent.

The effect was the same for both men and women.

Teetotallers had a slightly raised chance of developing the disease,
while low drinkers, those whose intake was between one and five drinks
a week, had an average risk.

Previous research has suggested that alcohol can protect against the
severity of rheumatoid arthritis, which can leave patients crippled
and in constant pain.

The latest study found smoking increased the risk in those with a
genetic susceptibility to the disease.

Henrik Kallberg, who led the research, writes that the findings point
to the possibility that alcohol "may protect against" rheumatoid
arthritis.

Ailsa Bosworth, chief executive of the National Rheumatoid Arthritis
Society, said: "This study is important because it indicates one of
the environmental factors that can cause rheumatoid arthritis in
people who are genetically susceptible to the condition.

"The more we can learn about what causes rheumatoid arthritis and what
we can do to lessen our chances of developing it, the better."

However, Professor Robert Moots, from the Arthritis Research Campaign,
warned against drawing too many conclusions from the findings.

He said: "There is no doubt that drinking too much is very bad for our
health in many ways and these risks by far outweigh any potential
benefit for reducing the risk of rheumatoid arthritis, which this
study points to, without being conclusive.

"We must also remember that drinking alcohol in excess can be
especially dangerous in patients taking some anti-rheumatoid drugs
that may cause liver damage."

However, he added: "Drinking a moderate amount of alcohol may have a
protective effect against rheumatoid arthritis, in ways that we don't
yet understand - possibly comparable to effects of drinking moderate
amounts of red wine on cardiovascular disease."

Unlike osteoarthritis which tends to affect older people, rheumatoid
arthritis can strike at any age.

The disease is sparked by the immune system, which starts attacking
the joints causing inflammation and swelling.

An estimated 4,000 patients in Britain are seriously affected by the
disease, for which there is no known cure.
"

>>>Mostly spread by French males who particularly enjoy 'un petit 
rouge' whatever the time of day,

Around me, most French people wouldn't think of having red till 
lunchtime. Early morning it's almost always white which they carry on 
with till it's time for the apero when they switch to rosé or a pastis.Steve
PS Acc a local winegrower, it's the white wine that gives them (him 
included) kidney stones, something to do with excess of sulphur;

On Jun 5, 1:21 pm, "PG"  wrote:
> "Paul Grieg"  a écrit dans le message de news:
> fa007820-f353-4263-adc8-8322ec334...@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> | On Jun 5, 9:02 am, Peter Brooks  wrote:
> | > Here's an interesting article from the Telegraph:
> | > "
> | > Red wine stops effects of high-fat diet
> | > By Roger Highfield, Science Editor
> | > Last Updated: 1:01am BST 04/06/2008
> | >
> | > Red wine does indeed explain why the French get away with a relatively> | > clean bill of heart health despite eating a diet loaded with saturated> | > fats, concludes a new study.
> |
> | The study looked at middle aged mice! You would have to do extended
> | studies on the French before being able to come to this conclusion.
>
> There have been rumours ref the alleged beneficial effects of red wine on the
> health of the French for donkeys' years now, nothing new there. Mostly spread by
> French males who particularly enjoy 'un petit rouge' whatever the time of day, I
> reckon! But there are substantial differences in diet - I have to contest the
> "loaded with saturated fats" French diet assertion - most kids for example eat
> loads of vegetables, salads and fruit in comparison to the Brits, in my
> experience.

maybe your right about vegetables (any figures?) But you are wrong
about the French diet not being loaded with saturated fats.

Kendrick's 14 European country study (reported in The Great
Cholesterol Con) has the French diet with the highest percentage of
saturated fats (15%) but lowest heart disease death rate (< 100 per
100 000) Ukraine has figures of 7.5% and > 700 per 100 000.

> | Maybe red wine is only good for mice. Maybe its variety of food and
> | stress free lifestyle that is good for the French? Or the fact that
> | they take philosophy seriously? Good weather? Or any of several other
> | factors or combinations.
>
> Stress-free... not so much these days. The gap's narrowing fast, but the French
> concept of quality of life still includes considerable emphasis on taking time
> to eat, to talk, to enjoy periods of leisure. Plus there is more emphasis on
> physical fitness at school.
>
> Philosophy? Not sure about that these days, but yes they take some issues very
> seriously, and from a very early age too. I've seen 12 years olds waving banners
> at the school gates during a strike against proposed cuts in recent weeks.> Good weather... south of a line between La Rochelle and Lyon perhaps, but we've
> had a pretty awful May in the south of France this year ...
>
> Still, in the light of this new research, I shall definitely be boosting my
> Burgundy intake ;-)

Careful! Don't assume the glass of wine recommended in the report
referred to mice, and scale up :-)

Kendrick suggests that social dislocation may be a big factor in
causing stress, hence the high rates amongst British Asians, so I'm
not sure if moving to France is a good idea.

"Steve Y"  a écrit dans le message de news: 
6aq69kF38vhdoU1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>>Mostly spread by French males who particularly enjoy 'un petit
>>rouge' whatever the time of day,
>
>Around me, most French people wouldn't think of having red till
>lunchtime. Early morning it's almost always white which they carry on
>with till it's time for the apero when they switch to rosé or a pastis.

>PS Acc a local winegrower, it's the white wine that gives them (him
>included) kidney stones, something to do with excess of sulphur;

Yes white is certainly by far the main tipple early on, or maybe a beer, pretty 
much wherever you are in the Hexagon. Very rarely seen people have a rosé 
(unless it's the fortified sweet version) as an apéro though, whereabouts is 
that in France?

pga

NW of Lyon in the Beaujolais. Rosé is quite common here, more so than 
beer at this time of year.

S

PG wrote:

> 
> Yes white is certainly by far the main tipple early on, or maybe a beer, pretty 
> much wherever you are in the Hexagon. Very rarely seen people have a rosé 
> (unless it's the fortified sweet version) as an apéro though, whereabouts is 
> that in France?
> 
> pga
> 
> 
>

On Jun 5, 3:03 pm, Paul Grieg  wrote:
>
>
> Careful! Don't assume the glass of wine recommended in the report
> referred to mice, and scale up :-)
>
Spoilsport....!

"Steve Y"  a écrit dans le message de news: 
6aq6trF36tcvcU1@mid.individual.net...

>NW of Lyon in the Beaujolais. Rosé is quite common here, more so than
>beer at this time of year.

Juliénas, Morgon, Brouilly, some of my favourites from your neck of the woods 
...

"Paul Grieg"  a écrit dans le message de news: 
9f214141-c581-447f-b40f-da4546391900@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 5, 1:21 pm, "PG"  wrote:
> "Paul Grieg"  a écrit dans le message de news:
> fa007820-f353-4263-adc8-8322ec334...@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> | On Jun 5, 9:02 am, Peter Brooks  wrote:
>> | > Here's an interesting article from the Telegraph:
>> | > "
>> | > Red wine stops effects of high-fat diet
>> | > By Roger Highfield, Science Editor
>> | > Last Updated: 1:01am BST 04/06/2008
>> | >
>> | > Red wine does indeed explain why the French get away with a relatively
>> | > clean bill of heart health despite eating a diet loaded with saturated
>> | > fats, concludes a new study.
>> |
>> | The study looked at middle aged mice! You would have to do extended
>> | studies on the French before being able to come to this conclusion.
>>
>> There have been rumours ref the alleged beneficial effects of red wine on the
>> health of the French for donkeys' years now, nothing new there. Mostly spread 
>> by
>> French males who particularly enjoy 'un petit rouge' whatever the time of 
>> day, I
>> reckon! But there are substantial differences in diet - I have to contest the
>> "loaded with saturated fats" French diet assertion - most kids for example 
>> eat
>> loads of vegetables, salads and fruit in comparison to the Brits, in my
>> experience.
>
> maybe your right about vegetables (any figures?) But you are wrong
> about the French diet not being loaded with saturated fats.

Sorry only anecdotal, based on a couple of decades living here. And on the look 
on British visitors' kids' faces when they see that they're expected to eat food 
for a change ;-)

> Kendrick's 14 European country study (reported in The Great
> Cholesterol Con) has the French diet with the highest percentage of
> saturated fats (15%) but lowest heart disease death rate (< 100 per
> 100 000) Ukraine has figures of 7.5% and > 700 per 100 000.

I find that odd - my experience is of a wholesome, varied diet, and certainly no 
more fatty meat content than in the UK. One factor ref heart disease - the 
health system here - at least until recently - placed a lot of emphasis on 
prevention. My GP regularly sends me off for various checks, including 
cholesterol, despite a complete lack of symptoms. Any signs of an increase in my 
cholesterol count and I would soon know about it ...

>> | Maybe red wine is only good for mice. Maybe its variety of food and
>> | stress free lifestyle that is good for the French? Or the fact that
>> | they take philosophy seriously? Good weather? Or any of several other
>> | factors or combinations.
>>
>> Stress-free... not so much these days. The gap's narrowing fast, but the 
>> French
>> concept of quality of life still includes considerable emphasis on taking 
>> time
>> to eat, to talk, to enjoy periods of leisure. Plus there is more emphasis on
>> physical fitness at school.
>>
>> Philosophy? Not sure about that these days, but yes they take some issues 
>> very
>> seriously, and from a very early age too. I've seen 12 years olds waving 
>> banners
>> at the school gates during a strike against proposed cuts in recent weeks.
>>
>> Good weather... south of a line between La Rochelle and Lyon perhaps, but 
>> we've
>> had a pretty awful May in the south of France this year ...
>>
>> Still, in the light of this new research, I shall definitely be boosting my
>> Burgundy intake ;-)
>
> Careful! Don't assume the glass of wine recommended in the report
> referred to mice, and scale up :-)

That would be unthinkable ;)

> Kendrick suggests that social dislocation may be a big factor in
> causing stress, hence the high rates amongst British Asians, so I'm
> not sure if moving to France is a good idea.

Certainly not the way so many do it - underestimating costs and potential 
problems, overestimating their ability to make a living, integrate into the 
local community, etc ... otherwise intelligent, astute people seem to throw 
caution to the winds and do the craziest things sometimes.

pga

X-No-Archive: yes

"PG"  wrote in message 
news:4847df0e$0$863$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...
>
> "mark"  a écrit dans le message de news:
> nOSdnemoLP1oR9rVnZ2dnUVZ8qydnZ2d@bt.com...
> | X-No-Archive: yes
> |
> | "PG"  wrote in message
> | news:4847d99f$0$846$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...
> |
> | > Good weather... south of a line between La Rochelle and Lyon perhaps, 
> but
> | > we've
> | > had a pretty awful May in the south of France this year ...
> |
> | > Still, in the light of this new research, I shall definitely be 
> boosting
> | > my
> | > Burgundy intake ;-)
> |
> | ..a little off subject... but where are you, roughly..?
>
> In the Savoie (just down the valley from Val d'Isère) in the winter 
> usually,
> then in the south near Avignon from late spring, but I'm away in SE Asia 
> again
> soon, for a fair while. Missed out on the Savoie last winter to spend 6 
> months
> travelling around Thailand, Laos, Burma, Cambodia until mid-March, 
> absolutely
> loved it there.

Ah.   ok.
I park my car at Avignon aiport to fly to the UK but live nearer 
Montpellier... Herault.
Masses of red wine production....  some very 'iffy..  less white.
I'm sad that more people talk about, and are concerned, about drink driving 
out in the country/vines regions though.  It's changing the culture a bit 
not to mention the fortunes of remote/village bars.
Just to make things worse, the gendarmes are out at midnight at the end of 
very, very small vineyard roads sometimes.....  just enough to make you 
wonder...
The diet in the South is very much fish and local vegetables with meat 
further inland.  Nice that markets still have little growers selling their 
produce and that generally markets are synonomous with quality vegetables 
and fruit.
Speed of life (..or lack of rather..!)  is very evident in the South, also, 
people do take more time over food and protect the *midi* break strongly. 
Then there's (..for the time being) no (general) sunday shop opening so it 
is still a day for family, bbq's, friends, conviviality - all adding to less 
stress in ones life.
It is clear that the culture needs taking into account when looking at 
health statistics as reasons for, or against,  lifestyle assessment and 
health issues in general..
It's changing though ... don't you think..?
If Sarkozy gets his way sundays will be confined to the rubbish bin of 
history......



Mark

X-No-Archive: yes

"PG"  wrote in message 
news:4847e9a8$0$864$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...
>
> "Paul Grieg"  a écrit dans le message de news:
> 9f214141-c581-447f-b40f-da4546391900@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 5, 1:21 pm, "PG"  wrote:
>> "Paul Grieg"  a écrit dans le message de news:
>> fa007820-f353-4263-adc8-8322ec334...@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>> | On Jun 5, 9:02 am, Peter Brooks  wrote:


>>> French males who particularly enjoy 'un petit rouge' whatever the time 
>>> of
>>> day, I
>>> reckon! But there are substantial differences in diet - I have to 
>>> contest the
>>> "loaded with saturated fats" French diet assertion - most kids for 
>>> example
>>> eat
>>> loads of vegetables, salads and fruit in comparison to the Brits, in my
>>> experience.

>> maybe your right about vegetables (any figures?) But you are wrong
>> about the French diet not being loaded with saturated fats.


> Sorry only anecdotal, based on a couple of decades living here. And on the 
> look
> on British visitors' kids' faces when they see that they're expected to 
> eat food
> for a change ;-)

It would be interesting to know where the saturated fats came from in this 
report....
Whilst the French can be large meat eaters and some dishes are loaded with 
animal fat (goose often..) I would say there is far less 'processed' 
(..perhaps I mean pre-prepared..) foods in supermarkets in France to buy in 
the first place.  I find I buy the raw materials and actually cook it into a 
meal which is something that just about every French family meal I have been 
to, does also... it seems.
Is cheese included in these 'saturated fats'...?   Cheese is a pretty big 
deal in France...!

>> Kendrick's 14 European country study (reported in The Great
>> Cholesterol Con) has the French diet with the highest percentage of
>> saturated fats (15%) but lowest heart disease death rate (< 100 per
>> 100 000) Ukraine has figures of 7.5% and > 700 per 100 000.

> I find that odd - my experience is of a wholesome, varied diet, and 
> certainly no
> more fatty meat content than in the UK.


Yes.  In fact, I would suggest there is much more smaller meat production 
going on than in the UK.
Then there's the horse meat butchers....
Generally more olive oil use and the vegetables are by and large those grown 
seasonally rather than imported year round, genetically modified, often 
tasteless excuses as in many UK supermarkets.
I laugh when watching english visitors in the markets leaving well alone the 
big, deformed, sometimes  slightly  blighted  tomatoes in favour of uniform 
'supermarket type' examples.
I agree with you... it's odd isn't it.  Mind you... it's a lot bloody colder 
in the Ukraine than France  - can the cold affect heart conditions..?


>One factor ref heart disease - the
> health system here - at least until recently - placed a lot of emphasis on
> prevention. My GP regularly sends me off for various checks, including
> cholesterol, despite a complete lack of symptoms. Any signs of an increase 
> in my
> cholesterol count and I would soon know about it ...

:)
...and blood tests.....!!   They are mad about blood tests.  Go to the 
doctor and you are off for a blood sample in seconds...!!
And if you want some time away - just ask the doctor for a week or two 
convalescence in a bath or spa retreat......  another part of french 
'sub-culture'.

>> Kendrick suggests that social dislocation may be a big factor in
>> causing stress, hence the high rates amongst British Asians, so I'm
>> not sure if moving to France is a good idea.

> Certainly not the way so many do it - underestimating costs and potential
> problems, overestimating their ability to make a living, integrate into 
> the
> local community, etc ... otherwise intelligent, astute people seem to 
> throw
> caution to the winds and do the craziest things sometimes.

Yes.  Speaking french also helps and reduces stress and complications in 
daily living.
Amazing how many brits who, on arrival in france, become qualified 
builders..!
We are now starting to see the first wave of english book shops and english 
food shops - hell, there's even a cricket team in a nearby village who play 
only visiting british teams.  The french have no idea about this game of 
cricket. Worse, in the south of france, where water can often be an issue, 
much is needed to produce and maintain a pitch of any use whatsoever for 
cricket..... it's amusing really. Probably why Boules is so practical..
Moving to France is NOT a good idea, however......... far too many brits 
there already... and they are starting to ruin some parts of french culture 
unfortunately..


Mark

"mark"  a écrit dans le message de news: 
QuednRwRUK6IYNrVnZ2dnUVZ8tfinZ2d@bt.com...
| X-No-Archive: yes
| "PG"  wrote in message
| news:4847e9a8$0$864$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...
| > "Paul Grieg"  a écrit dans le message de news:
| > 9f214141-c581-447f-b40f-da4546391900@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
|
| >>> French males who particularly enjoy 'un petit rouge' whatever the time
| >>> of day, I reckon! But there are substantial differences in diet - I have 
to
| >>> contest the "loaded with saturated fats" French diet assertion - most
| >>> kids for example eat loads of vegetables, salads and fruit in comparison
| >>>  to the Brits, in my experience.
|
| >> maybe your right about vegetables (any figures?) But you are wrong
| >> about the French diet not being loaded with saturated fats.
|
| > Sorry only anecdotal, based on a couple of decades living here. And on
| > the look on British visitors' kids' faces when they see that they're 
expected
| > to eat food for a change ;-)
|
| It would be interesting to know where the saturated fats came from in this
| report....
| Whilst the French can be large meat eaters and some dishes are loaded with
| animal fat (goose often..) I would say there is far less 'processed'
| (..perhaps I mean pre-prepared..) foods in supermarkets in France to buy in
| the first place.

Last time I was back in the UK about eight years ago I remember being pretty 
surprised by the processed meats - seemed presentation was more important than 
content (smiley animal faces, etc). Looked pretty disgusting. And the 
packaging - bright colours everywhere. 'Fruit'-flavoured (allegedly) drinks with 
weird names. And the crisps ... whole aisles dedicated to every possible flavour 
you can think of.

And this 24 hours a day hypermarket opening thing - what was the thinking behind 
that? The French seem to be able to survive without suddenly feeling a craving 
to go shopping at 3 in the morning. Mind you things are changing... for the 
worse. Our local supermarket used to shut every day between 12.30 and 3pm. Not 
any more :-(

| I find I buy the raw materials and actually cook it into a
| meal which is something that just about every French family meal I have been
| to, does also... it seems.
| Is cheese included in these 'saturated fats'...?   Cheese is a pretty big
| deal in France...!

Forgot about cheese, but I reckon that's more than compensated for by the 
relatively small amount of crisps, biscuits, pastries, chocolates and sweets the 
French eat, compared to the Brits. The end of afternoon snack here might be a 
slice of cake and a banana or something for the kids, but the last time mine ate 
a packet of crisps? I bet they can't even remember. Sweets? Maybe once every ten 
days or so. Biscuits? Not for a month or so. Chocolate? They had a couple of 
Easter eggs, stuffed themselves, felt sick, that's put them off for a few 
months.

| >> Kendrick's 14 European country study (reported in The Great
| >> Cholesterol Con) has the French diet with the highest percentage of
| >> saturated fats (15%) but lowest heart disease death rate (< 100 per
| >> 100 000) Ukraine has figures of 7.5% and > 700 per 100 000.
|
| > I find that odd - my experience is of a wholesome, varied diet, and
| > certainly no more fatty meat content than in the UK.
|
| Yes.  In fact, I would suggest there is much more smaller meat production
| going on than in the UK.
| Then there's the horse meat butchers....
| Generally more olive oil use and the vegetables are by and large those grown
| seasonally rather than imported year round, genetically modified, often
| tasteless excuses as in many UK supermarkets.
| I laugh when watching english visitors in the markets leaving well alone the
| big, deformed, sometimes  slightly  blighted  tomatoes in favour of uniform
| 'supermarket type' examples.

Ha yes, happens all the time. I reckon some Brits think they're a new fruit, and 
you know what many Brits are like for trying something different ...

| I agree with you... it's odd isn't it.  Mind you... it's a lot bloody colder
| in the Ukraine than France  - can the cold affect heart conditions..?

It probably would if you regularly drink bottles of Old Kiev vodka to compensate 
;-)

| >One factor ref heart disease - the
| > health system here - at least until recently - placed a lot of emphasis on
| > prevention. My GP regularly sends me off for various checks, including
| > cholesterol, despite a complete lack of symptoms. Any signs of an increase
| > in my
| > cholesterol count and I would soon know about it ...
|
| :)
| ...and blood tests.....!!   They are mad about blood tests.  Go to the
| doctor and you are off for a blood sample in seconds...!!
| And if you want some time away - just ask the doctor for a week or two
| convalescence in a bath or spa retreat......  another part of french
| 'sub-culture'.

Still with Sarko and a huge health budget deficit, I'm not so sure that'll be so 
easily available for much longer ...

| >> Kendrick suggests that social dislocation may be a big factor in
| >> causing stress, hence the high rates amongst British Asians, so I'm
| >> not sure if moving to France is a good idea.
|
| > Certainly not the way so many do it - underestimating costs and potential
| > problems, overestimating their ability to make a living, integrate into
| > the
| > local community, etc ... otherwise intelligent, astute people seem to
| > throw
| > caution to the winds and do the craziest things sometimes.
|
| Yes.  Speaking french also helps and reduces stress and complications in
| daily living.
| Amazing how many brits who, on arrival in france, become qualified
| builders..!
| We are now starting to see the first wave of english book shops and english
| food shops - hell, there's even a cricket team in a nearby village who play
| only visiting british teams.  The french have no idea about this game of
| cricket. Worse, in the south of france, where water can often be an issue,
| much is needed to produce and maintain a pitch of any use whatsoever for
| cricket..... it's amusing really. Probably why Boules is so practical..
| Moving to France is NOT a good idea, however......... far too many brits
| there already... and they are starting to ruin some parts of french culture
| unfortunately..

Aaargh ... true though - one reason why I've found myself spending more time in 
SE Asia, it'll be a while before the culture in that part of the world is 
Americanised ...

pga

On Jun 5, 4:27 pm, "PG"  wrote:
> "mark"  a écrit dans le message de news:
> QuednRwRUK6IYNrVnZ2dnUVZ8tfin...@bt.com...
> | X-No-Archive: yes| "PG"  wrote in message
>
> |news:4847e9a8$0$864$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...
> | > "Paul Grieg"  a écrit dans le message de news:
> | > 9f214141-c581-447f-b40f-da4546391...@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> |
> | >>> French males who particularly enjoy 'un petit rouge' whatever the time
> | >>> of day, I reckon! But there are substantial differences in diet - I have
> to
> | >>> contest the "loaded with saturated fats" French diet assertion - most
> | >>> kids for example eat loads of vegetables, salads and fruit in comparison
> | >>>  to the Brits, in my experience.
> |
> | >> maybe your right about vegetables (any figures?) But you are wrong
> | >> about the French diet not being loaded with saturated fats.
> |
> | > Sorry only anecdotal, based on a couple of decades living here. And on> | > the look on British visitors' kids' faces when they see that they're
> expected
> | > to eat food for a change ;-)
> |
> | It would be interesting to know where the saturated fats came from in this
> | report....
> | Whilst the French can be large meat eaters and some dishes are loaded with
> | animal fat (goose often..) I would say there is far less 'processed'
> | (..perhaps I mean pre-prepared..) foods in supermarkets in France to buy in
> | the first place.
>
> Last time I was back in the UK about eight years ago I remember being pretty
> surprised by the processed meats - seemed presentation was more important than
> content (smiley animal faces, etc). Looked pretty disgusting. And the
> packaging - bright colours everywhere. 'Fruit'-flavoured (allegedly) drinks with
> weird names. And the crisps ... whole aisles dedicated to every possible flavour
> you can think of.
>
> And this 24 hours a day hypermarket opening thing - what was the thinking behind
> that? The French seem to be able to survive without suddenly feeling a craving
> to go shopping at 3 in the morning. Mind you things are changing... for the
> worse. Our local supermarket used to shut every day between 12.30 and 3pm. Not
> any more :-(
>
> | I find I buy the raw materials and actually cook it into a
> | meal which is something that just about every French family meal I have been
> | to, does also... it seems.
> | Is cheese included in these 'saturated fats'...?   Cheese is a pretty big
> | deal in France...!
>
> Forgot about cheese, but I reckon that's more than compensated for by the
> relatively small amount of crisps, biscuits, pastries, chocolates and sweets the
> French eat, compared to the Brits. The end of afternoon snack here might be a
> slice of cake and a banana or something for the kids, but the last time mine ate
> a packet of crisps? I bet they can't even remember. Sweets? Maybe once every ten
> days or so. Biscuits? Not for a month or so. Chocolate? They had a couple of
> Easter eggs, stuffed themselves, felt sick, that's put them off for a few
> months.
>
> | >> Kendrick's 14 European country study (reported in The Great
> | >> Cholesterol Con) has the French diet with the highest percentage of
> | >> saturated fats (15%) but lowest heart disease death rate (< 100 per
> | >> 100 000) Ukraine has figures of 7.5% and > 700 per 100 000.
> |
> | > I find that odd - my experience is of a wholesome, varied diet, and
> | > certainly no more fatty meat content than in the UK.

Kendrick didn't include the UK in his study, but the other 6 advanced
Euro countries
aren't too far from the French figures - between 12.5 ad 15 %.

All the 7 'less advanced' EU countries are below 7.5% but have higher
death rates.

> | Generally more olive oil use and the vegetables are by and large those grown
> | seasonally rather than imported year round, genetically modified, often
> | tasteless excuses as in many UK supermarkets.

I thought research had shown that organic was no better than
'tasteless'?

> | I laugh when watching english visitors in the markets leaving well alone the
> | big, deformed, sometimes  slightly  blighted  tomatoes in favour of uniform
> | 'supermarket type' examples.
>
> Ha yes, happens all the time. I reckon some Brits think they're a new fruit, and
> you know what many Brits are like for trying something different ...

Maybe you're on to something there. Perhaps the variety in the French
diet is key?

> | I agree with you... it's odd isn't it.  Mind you... it's a lot bloody colder
> | in the Ukraine than France  - can the cold affect heart conditions..?

Iceland, Finland and Switzerland are a lot lower than the Ukraine (1/3
the death rate). Aberbaijan, Macedonia and Croatia are all amongst the
high death rate countries.

> | >One factor ref heart disease - the
> | > health system here - at least until recently - placed a lot of emphasis on
> | > prevention. My GP regularly sends me off for various checks, including> | > cholesterol, despite a complete lack of symptoms. Any signs of an increase
> | > in my
> | > cholesterol count and I would soon know about it ...

Read Kendrick and then you can have a nice long argument with him.

"Statin, non!"

Diet.  I think this depends on income. Those on limited incomes will 
exist on whatever their local "Hard Discount" has to offer when they go 
once a week, not everyone will have the opportunity to get to the local 
markets (that thankfully still exist).   There are plenty of companies 
offering frozen food delivered to the door for those that don't have 
time to go shopping

Healthy Stuff.  Here in the Beaujolais we don't have crisps (chips in 
colonialspeak) but we do have and are offered "saucisse", "jesus" and 
grattons, all of which have slightly raised levels of fat that my Doctor regulalrly warns me against.

Cakes etc.  A French meal without patisserie being offered ??  Most 
cafés/restaurants will offer you a biscuit or chocolate with your 
coffee.  The French love their sweet stuff.


The two things that make me realise that the French aren't all fixated 
on the healthy good stuff are UHT Milk (bought by the  6 pack every 2 
weeks) and Mousseline (Mashed potato lookalike that arrives in powered 
form from a Rhone Poulenc factory near Marseilles)

Steve

"Steve Y"  a écrit dans le message de news: 
6aqnseF394qo1U1@mid.individual.net...

> Diet.  I think this depends on income. Those on limited incomes will
> exist on whatever their local "Hard Discount" has to offer when they go
> once a week, not everyone will have the opportunity to get to the local
> markets (that thankfully still exist).   There are plenty of companies
> offering frozen food delivered to the door for those that don't have
> time to go shopping

Sure it plays a role, but there (ime) is a distinct difference between the fare 
offered by poorer families in France and the UK. Maybe it's the 'Brits eat to 
live, French live to eat', thing. A question of pride. As for delivery services, 
perhaps it's the greater distances involved, but one of the major groceries 
distribution services in France stopped covering my part of the Vaucluse a year 
or so back because it simply wasn't viable. People aren't so interested in 
convenience as in quality, especially away from the main urban areas.

Times are a'changing though, the traditional lifestyle is certainly under 
threat.

> Healthy Stuff.  Here in the Beaujolais we don't have crisps (chips in
> colonialspeak) but we do have and are offered "saucisse", "jesus" and
> grattons, all of which have slightly raised levels of fat that my Doctor
> regulalrly warns me against.

France, a colony? Sure you don't live in the Dordogne? ;) Ok, but what about 
fried breakfasts, fish 'n chips, all that sort of thing. Or has the UK gone 
cordon bleu since I jumped ship?

> Cakes etc.  A French meal without patisserie being offered ??  Most
> cafés/restaurants will offer you a biscuit or chocolate with your
> coffee.  The French love their sweet stuff.

A wafer thin slice of dark chocolate as often as not. And as for pâtisserie, 
usually a healthy, fruit-filled French-style 'dry' pastry. Often with the 
alternative of the likes of a fruit salad. And I've rarely come across a French 
family that doesn't put a bowl of fruit on the table as a desert option.

> The two things that make me realise that the French aren't all fixated
> on the healthy good stuff are UHT Milk (bought by the  6 pack every 2
> weeks) and Mousseline (Mashed potato lookalike that arrives in powered
> form from a Rhone Poulenc factory near Marseilles)

Not sure that heat-treated milk is bad for you - but in twenty years here I 
can't recall ever being offered any. They don't drink milk, just stick some 
(boiled usually) in a coffee sometimes. And as for mousseline, the French 
families I've eaten with (I meet a Brit once in a blue moon) would never live 
down the shame of serving that stuff.

Still, the younger generations are gradually being seduced by the high octane 
packaged fast-food lifestyle, and in maybe a decade or two, we'll catch up with 
the UK of today I reckon. Sad to say.

pga

"Peter Brooks"  wrote in message 
news:35416c50-5e0e-42ea-81fc-b4044cdf4ce3@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> Here's an interesting article from the Telegraph:
>
> "
> Red wine stops effects of high-fat diet
> By Roger Highfield, Science Editor
> Last Updated: 1:01am BST 04/06/2008
>
Of course, there is always a jeremiah! See the last para of:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7432957.stm

The UK govt published its recommendations for healthy alcohol consumption a 
couple of weeks ago and I calculated that 2 bottles of claret per week just 
about matched their figures{;-)

On a related topic: a friend, who works in a wine shop, e-mailed me 
yesterday to inform me that they will soon have some 2005 Chateau Cheval 
Blanc for sale at Can$1150 (~GBP575) per BOTTLE!

Graham

On Jun 6, 4:35 am, "graham"  wrote:
> "Peter Brooks"  wrote in message
>
> news:35416c50-5e0e-42ea-81fc-b4044cdf4ce3@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...> Here's an interesting article from the Telegraph:
>
> > "
> > Red wine stops effects of high-fat diet
> > By Roger Highfield, Science Editor
> > Last Updated: 1:01am BST 04/06/2008
>
> Of course, there is always a jeremiah! See the last para of:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7432957.stm
>
> The UK govt published its recommendations for healthy alcohol consumption a
> couple of weeks ago and I calculated that 2 bottles of claret per week just
> about matched their figures{;-)
>
> On a related topic: a friend, who works in a wine shop, e-mailed me
> yesterday to inform me that they will soon have some 2005 Chateau Cheval
> Blanc for sale at Can$1150 (~GBP575) per BOTTLE!
>
> Graham

On Jun 6, 4:35 am, "graham"  wrote:
>
>
> The UK govt published its recommendations for healthy alcohol consumption a
> couple of weeks ago and I calculated that 2 bottles of claret per week just
> about matched their figures{;-)
>
The only solution is to move to a Jovian week, that should give you
closer to five bottles per terrestrial week.

On Jun 6, 4:35 am, "graham"  wrote:
>
>
> Of course, there is always a jeremiah! See the last para of:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7432957.stm
>
That seems encouraging, I'd have thought, she says you need to drink
'literally gallons' of wine to get the life-enhancing effect. She
doesn't give a time period for this, but, if we assume a week, that'd
be at least 9 litres or a case a week, a reasonable target to aim to
build up to even if you're not that keen on the stuff..

On Jun 5, 7:47 pm, "PG"  wrote:
> "Steve Y"  a écrit dans le message de news:
> 6aqnseF394qo...@mid.individual.net...
>
> > Diet.  I think this depends on income. Those on limited incomes will
> > exist on whatever their local "Hard Discount" has to offer when they go
> > once a week, not everyone will have the opportunity to get to the local
> > markets (that thankfully still exist).   There are plenty of companies
> > offering frozen food delivered to the door for those that don't have
> > time to go shopping
>
> Sure it plays a role, but there (ime) is a distinct difference between the fare
> offered by poorer families in France and the UK. Maybe it's the 'Brits eat to
> live, French live to eat', thing. A question of pride. As for delivery services,
> perhaps it's the greater distances involved, but one of the major groceries
> distribution services in France stopped covering my part of the Vaucluse a year
> or so back because it simply wasn't viable. People aren't so interested in> convenience as in quality, especially away from the main urban areas.

Is this a good thing? The great philosophers were seldom gourmets.
Making
too much fuss about food distracts from more important matters, and
often means devoting too much time and money to a basically trivial
pursuit.

Even Epicurus had little interest in food! He didn't have much money
and lived happily on the most basic bread cheese because it fill you
up as well as any other food. So conveninence is a priority for me,
then I don't have to fuss around trying to satisy such a basic, and
trivial, need.

Then again, I would get Sainsbury's 'Taste the Difference' bread  M&S
soft cheese spread rather than Lidl's basic white bread and cheese
slices. But I wouldn't cycle fifteen miles to the local county town
for goat cheese, or spend hours baking my own bread. There is always a
middle way!

> > Healthy Stuff.  Here in the Beaujolais we don't have crisps (chips in
> > colonialspeak) but we do have and are offered "saucisse", "jesus" and
> > grattons, all of which have slightly raised levels of fat that my Doctor> > regulalrly warns me against.

Ask why he's issuing these warnings when France has the lowest heart
attack rate in Europe and all the locals eat that kind of thing.

> France, a colony? Sure you don't live in the Dordogne? ;) Ok, but what about
> fried breakfasts, fish 'n chips, all that sort of thing.

Fried breakfast are too much hassle. Wittgenstein thought food was too
trivial to waste time over so had the same lunch every day (boiled egg
& a lump of cheese). I tend to agree, but that sounds rather stodgy,
so I have muesli for breakfast and vary lunch around very simple meals
(beans on toast, cheese sandwich, scrambled egg...) And what's wrong
with fish & chips -- a Sainsbury two pack of cod  oven chips twice a
week and that's the hassle taken out of planning and cooking two main
meals a week!

> Or has the UK gone
> cordon bleu since I jumped ship?

Not in my house :-)

> > Cakes etc.  A French meal without patisserie being offered ??  Most
> > cafés/restaurants will offer you a biscuit or chocolate with your
> > coffee.  The French love their sweet stuff.

I must admit I do indulge in occasional pastries, the local Tesco
express has excellent ones.

> A wafer thin slice of dark chocolate as often as not. And as for pâtisserie,
> usually a healthy, fruit-filled French-style 'dry' pastry. Often with the
> alternative of the likes of a fruit salad. And I've rarely come across a French
> family that doesn't put a bowl of fruit on the table as a desert option.

Isn't that common in Britain? My mother always had a bowl of fruit,
which was pointed to when bread pudding was off the menu.

> Not sure that heat-treated milk is bad for you - but in twenty years here I
> can't recall ever being offered any. They don't drink milk, just stick some
> (boiled usually) in a coffee sometimes.

Interesting. That other heart healthy nation, Japan, is also anti-
milk. I'll keep on putting soya milk on my muesli then. It tastes
better than milk, anyway.

> Still, the younger generations are gradually being seduced by the high octane
> packaged fast-food lifestyle, and in maybe a decade or two, we'll catch up with
> the UK of today I reckon. Sad to say.

Is it the fast eating, rather that quickly prepared food, that's the
problem? Relax, and eat your muesli slowly.

On Jun 6, 9:53 am, Peter Brooks  wrote:

"In health matters, mistaking correlation or association with
causation is an error frequently committed by those interpreting data.
The sun rises after the rooster crows; therefore roosters cause the
sun to rise. Eight out of ten gang members chew gum; therefore banning
chewing gum will curb gang violence. The association of wine and
improved cardiovascular health is only an association, and researchers
frequently attribute the lifestyles of the wine drinkers and/or the
antioxidants are the reason for the improvement - not the alcohol."

http://www.jrussellshealth.org/alc_iswinehealthy.html

"Paul Grieg"  a écrit dans le message de news: 
e674a8fb-2a70-41f6-9993-c92a8617913b@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 5, 7:47 pm, "PG"  wrote:
> "Steve Y"  a écrit dans le message de news:
> 6aqnseF394qo...@mid.individual.net...
>>
>>> Diet.  I think this depends on income. Those on limited incomes will
>>> exist on whatever their local "Hard Discount" has to offer when they go
>>> once a week, not everyone will have the opportunity to get to the local
>>> markets (that thankfully still exist).   There are plenty of companies
>>> offering frozen food delivered to the door for those that don't have
>>> time to go shopping
>> Sure it plays a role, but there (ime) is a distinct difference between the 
>> fare
>> offered by poorer families in France and the UK. Maybe it's the 'Brits eat to
>> live, French live to eat', thing. A question of pride. As for delivery 
>> services,
>> perhaps it's the greater distances involved, but one of the major groceries
>> distribution services in France stopped covering my part of the Vaucluse a 
>> year
>> or so back because it simply wasn't viable. People aren't so interested in
>> convenience as in quality, especially away from the main urban areas.
>
> Is this a good thing? The great philosophers were seldom gourmets.
>
> Making too much fuss about food distracts from more important
> matters, and often means devoting too much time and money to
> a basically trivial pursuit.
>
Definitely, but I think there's a little more to it. The French are more 
family-oriented (although that is gradually changing with people travelling 
farther to seek employment etc), and mealtimes are part of the glue that 
reinforces a sense of togetherness and continuity. The quality, pride taken in 
preparation, taking time to appreciate the meal, the ritualistic element, all 
contribute to maintaining the structure of family life, and respect for the 
older generations in particular.

> Even Epicurus had little interest in food! He didn't have much money
> and lived happily on the most basic bread cheese because it fill you
> up as well as any other food. So conveninence is a priority for me,
> then I don't have to fuss around trying to satisy such a basic, and
> trivial, need.
>
> Then again, I would get Sainsbury's 'Taste the Difference' bread + M&S
> soft cheese spread rather than Lidl's basic white bread and cheese
> slices. But I wouldn't cycle fifteen miles to the local county town
> for goat cheese, or spend hours baking my own bread. There is always a
> middle way!

The distances are greater in France, and bear in mind that until very recently 
it was always a lot more time-consuming to get to the big stores - closer at 
hand are all the local shops. Even in a small village such as mine, with a 
population of 2,500, there are 3 bakers, 1 butcher (2 up to a couple of years 
back), a small DIY shop, a clothes shop, couple of hairdressers, maybe half a 
dozen restaurants, a photographers, a greengrocers, street vendors selling fruit 
and veg throughout the season, a weekly market, a PO and a couple of banks, a 
tobacconists, etc. Plus the inevitable small supermarket (the nearest superstore 
is a good 30 minutes' drive away). There's a sense of community that even when I 
was in the UK had long disappeared from most equivalent-sized villages.

Urban areas are another issue, but there are still marked differences between 
the two countries.

>>> Healthy Stuff.  Here in the Beaujolais we don't have crisps (chips in
>>> colonialspeak) but we do have and are offered "saucisse", "jesus" and
>>> grattons, all of which have slightly raised levels of fat that my Doctor
>>> regulalrly warns me against.
>
> Ask why he's issuing these warnings when France has the lowest heart
> attack rate in Europe and all the locals eat that kind of thing.

Overprescribing has long been a problem (especially for the relevant state 
budget), and it seems to be part of the GP psyche, checking for every possible 
ailment. Reassuring to an extent, but there are inherent dangers too.

.../...

>> Still, the younger generations are gradually being seduced by the high octane
>> packaged fast-food lifestyle, and in maybe a decade or two, we'll catch up 
>> with
>> the UK of today I reckon. Sad to say.
>
> Is it the fast eating, rather that quickly prepared food, that's the
> problem? Relax, and eat your muesli slowly.

Helps if you have a two hour lunch break, of course!

"Paul Grieg"  ha scritto nel messaggio 
news:e674a8fb-2a70-41f6-9993-c92a8617913b@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 5, 7:47 pm, "PG"

snipped a list of supporting stuff

Even Epicurus had little interest in food! He didn't have much money
and lived happily on the most basic bread cheese because it fill you
up as well as any other food. So conveninence is a priority for me,
then I don't have to fuss around trying to satisy such a basic, and
trivial, need.

>There is always amiddle way!

Yes, there is, which is why there is Frank Sinatra and Abba between The 
Stones and Mozart.  If that's where you want to live, it is OK with me.

Wittgenstein thought food was too
trivial to waste time over so had the same lunch every day (boiled egg
& a lump of cheese). I tend to agree, but that sounds rather stodgy,
so I have muesli for breakfast and vary lunch around very simple meals
(beans on toast, cheese sandwich, scrambled egg...) And what's wrong
with fish & chips -- a Sainsbury two pack of cod + oven chips twice a
week and that's the hassle taken out of planning and cooking two main
meals a week!

Some, not a few, think of cookery as an applied art form.  You don't and 
you've gathered a list of people who agree with you.  Sllow for differences 
among us and we will not carry you to the hill and burn you.

Not in my house :-)

Clearly

I must admit I do indulge in occasional pastries, the local Tesco
express has excellent ones.

In your estimation which might not be a shared perception among us all.

X-No-Archive: yes

"PG"  wrote in message 
news:4849143a$0$925$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...
>
> "Paul Grieg"  a écrit dans le message de news:

> Definitely, but I think there's a little more to it. The French are more
> family-oriented (although that is gradually changing with people 
> travelling
> farther to seek employment etc), and mealtimes are part of the glue that
> reinforces a sense of togetherness and continuity. The quality, pride 
> taken in
> preparation, taking time to appreciate the meal, the ritualistic element, 
> all
> contribute to maintaining the structure of family life, and respect for 
> the
> older generations in particular.

>> Even Epicurus had little interest in food! He didn't have much money
>> and lived happily on the most basic bread cheese because it fill you
>> up as well as any other food. So conveninence is a priority for me,
>> then I don't have to fuss around trying to satisy such a basic, and
>> trivial, need.

>> Then again, I would get Sainsbury's 'Taste the Difference' bread + M&S
>> soft cheese spread rather than Lidl's basic white bread and cheese
>> slices. But I wouldn't cycle fifteen miles to the local county town
>> for goat cheese, or spend hours baking my own bread. There is always a
>> middle way!

> The distances are greater in France, and bear in mind that until very 
> recently
> it was always a lot more time-consuming to get to the big stores - closer 
> at
> hand are all the local shops. Even in a small village such as mine, with a
> population of 2,500, there are 3 bakers, 1 butcher (2 up to a couple of 
> years
> back), a small DIY shop, a clothes shop, couple of hairdressers, maybe 
> half a
> dozen restaurants, a photographers, a greengrocers, street vendors selling 
> fruit
> and veg throughout the season, a weekly market, a PO and a couple of 
> banks, a
> tobacconists, etc. Plus the inevitable small supermarket (the nearest 
> superstore
> is a good 30 minutes' drive away). There's a sense of community that even 
> when I
> was in the UK had long disappeared from most equivalent-sized villages.


There is, certainly outside of urbanity, a culture and way of life that is 
supported by and part of that culture (..obviously!)
Thus in the UK the steady drift to huge supermarkets, sounding the death 
knoll of much commerce in many small towns - let alone villages is yet to 
hit much of rural france... and there is a lot of rural france!!
It is moving slowly, slowly that way but it's nothing like the UK. 
Therefore, the Tesco mindset doesn't kick in...  once in a while to the 
nearest Auchan/Carrefour/Inter Marche but generally to the local shops and 
to one of the inevitable markets nearby,  rotating round the villages on 
most days. Then the visiting mobile vans....  fish, meat, vegetables, 
epicerie and much more.....
It's just how it works in france.  In addition, as a generality, markets in 
france are mostly involved in selling quality food - unlike the british 
counterpart that seem to sell everything on price (.. and thus offer poorer 
quality)  Then food and hygiene.  I laugh at the visitors who turn away from 
the meat/fish stalls at markets in summer because there is inevitably, in 
the heat, flies around the stalls.  It just wouldn't happen in the UK.  The 
food hygiene officers from the councils would close the stalls down in 
seconds.....
And how often do complete strangers walk past if you are eating in a public 
place and say..."bon appetite".......!  It's remarkable.  Try thinking of a 
suitable phrase in english that says everything that 'bon appetite' does.
It is a mere indicator of the way the french and food are inexplicably 
linked in their culture...  You would seldom hear someone make the remark, 
as in this thread, that they were only interested in convenience as a 
priority, in relation to food.   My goodness.  Convenience and food is 
probably not even translatable into french..!!
Allowing the customary 2 hours midi lunch break (sometimes five in high 
summer) is  testament and support to the  importance that eating *correctly* 
is a desirable cultural asset to the french...  not sure that could be said 
of the british..


Mark

"Paul Grieg"  wrote in message 
news:e674a8fb-2a70-41f6-9993-c92a8617913b@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 5, 7:47 pm, "PG"  wrote:
>
Wittgenstein thought food was too
trivial to waste time over so had the same lunch every day (boiled egg
& a lump of cheese).

What a miserable sod he must have been!
Graham

On Jun 6, 12:21 pm, Paul Grieg  wrote:
> On Jun 6, 9:53 am, Peter Brooks  wrote:
>
> "In health matters, mistaking correlation or association with
> causation is an error frequently committed by those interpreting data.
> The sun rises after the rooster crows; therefore roosters cause the
> sun to rise. Eight out of ten gang members chew gum; therefore banning
> chewing gum will curb gang violence. The association of wine and
> improved cardiovascular health is only an association, and researchers
> frequently attribute the lifestyles of the wine drinkers and/or the
> antioxidants are the reason for the improvement - not the alcohol."
>
Jailing gang members will cut the consumption of chewing gum and
improve the aesthetics of the street. You can understand the
statistics and make sense of them.

Antioxidants have recently been shown to be dangerous in excess,
particularly if consumed as tablets. So this is really yet more reason
to tuck into the red.

My flight last night was delayed by five hours, so I had a chance to
sample some quite good red wine. I'd enjoyed seeing some meerkats
(mongooses) this last week, they really are quite charming creatures -
particularly if viewed from a distance. The airport business lounge
(open to me because of the long delay) had some red wine with pictures
of meerkats on the bottles. I fear that this, coupled with the health
benefits I've had reinforced by this discussion, led me to enjoy more
than I should have. It had a beneficent side-effect for my fellow
travellers, though. They were a very sad bunch until I entertained
them with a little sketch on the wonders of travelling with South
African Airways - even the SAA officials seemed to approve of it.

My wife is peeved that I don't even have the hangover that I ought to
have in these circumstances...

On Jun 6, 11:44 am, "PG"  wrote:
> "Paul Grieg"  a écrit dans le message de
> Overprescribing has long been a problem (especially for the relevant state> budget), and it seems to be part of the GP psyche, checking for every possible
> ailment. Reassuring to an extent, but there are inherent dangers too.

Yup. Check out the side effects of statins in Kendrick's book!

On Jun 7, 12:12 am, "graham"  wrote:
> "Paul Grieg"  wrote in message
>
> news:e674a8fb-2a70-41f6-9993-c92a8617913b@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 5, 7:47 pm, "PG"  wrote:
>
> Wittgenstein thought food was too
> trivial to waste time over so had the same lunch every day (boiled egg
> & a lump of cheese).
>
> What a miserable sod he must have been!
> Graham

Why? Have you any research to show that following a simple diet makes
one a miserable sod? His final words were: “Tell them I had a
wonderful life.” Doesn't sound miserable to me.

On Jun 7, 8:47 am, Peter Brooks  wrote:
> On Jun 6, 12:21 pm, Paul Grieg  wrote:> On Jun 6, 9:53 am, Peter Brooks  wrote:
>
> > "In health matters, mistaking correlation or association with
> > causation is an error frequently committed by those interpreting data.
> > The sun rises after the rooster crows; therefore roosters cause the
> > sun to rise. Eight out of ten gang members chew gum; therefore banning
> > chewing gum will curb gang violence. The association of wine and
> > improved cardiovascular health is only an association, and researchers
> > frequently attribute the lifestyles of the wine drinkers and/or the
> > antioxidants are the reason for the improvement - not the alcohol."
>
> Jailing gang members will cut the consumption of chewing gum and
> improve the aesthetics of the street. You can understand the
> statistics and make sense of them.
>
> Antioxidants have recently been shown to be dangerous in excess,
> particularly if consumed as tablets. So this is really yet more reason
> to tuck into the red.

But hardly sufficient reason. It is jut means you should avoid
antioxidants in the amounts indicated by this research (if it's good
research).

> My flight last night was delayed by five hours, so I had a chance to
> sample some quite good red wine. I'd enjoyed seeing some meerkats
> (mongooses) this last week, they really are quite charming creatures -
> particularly if viewed from a distance. The airport business lounge
> (open to me because of the long delay) had some red wine with pictures
> of meerkats on the bottles. I fear that this, coupled with the health
> benefits I've had reinforced by this discussion, led me to enjoy more
> than I should have.

Shows you should be careful who you talk to :-) Even the supportive
research stresses *moderate* consumption. One glass a day seems to be
the safest recommendation. Personally I can't be bothered with the
rigmarole of opening a bottle and vacuum sealing it daily (plus, like
you, I have a tendency to say 'what the hell' when confronted with a
full bottle!) So I don't drink, and I don't miss it. Then again if you
like the roller coaster ride of drinking, feeling up for a few hours,
socially inappropriate behaviour, being the life and soul of the
party, hangovers, cirrhosis, giving your tongue a treat, brain cell
destruction, early death, then go ahead. It's your choice.  I prefer
the smooth and level ride these days.

> It had a beneficent side-effect for my fellow
> travellers, though. They were a very sad bunch until I entertained
> them with a little sketch on the wonders of travelling with South
> African Airways - even the SAA officials seemed to approve of it.

Is entertaining sad travellers worth the health risk?

> My wife is peeved that I don't even have the hangover that I ought to
> have in these circumstances...

Just tell her it's a useful early warning system that you lack, and
your liver's probably shot :-)

That'll cheer her up.

On Jun 7, 11:55 am, Paul Grieg  wrote:
>
>
> > My flight last night was delayed by five hours, so I had a chance to
> > sample some quite good red wine. I'd enjoyed seeing some meerkats
> > (mongooses) this last week, they really are quite charming creatures -
> > particularly if viewed from a distance. The airport business lounge
> > (open to me because of the long delay) had some red wine with pictures
> > of meerkats on the bottles. I fear that this, coupled with the health
> > benefits I've had reinforced by this discussion, led me to enjoy more
> > than I should have.
>
> Shows you should be careful who you talk to :-) Even the supportive
> research stresses *moderate* consumption. One glass a day seems to be
> the safest recommendation. Personally I can't be bothered with the
> rigmarole of opening a bottle and vacuum sealing it daily (plus, like
> you, I have a tendency to say 'what the hell' when confronted with a
> full bottle!) So I don't drink, and I don't miss it. Then again if you
> like the roller coaster ride of drinking, feeling up for a few hours,
> socially inappropriate behaviour, being the life and soul of the
> party, hangovers, cirrhosis, giving your tongue a treat, brain cell
> destruction, early death, then go ahead. It's your choice.  I prefer
> the smooth and level ride these days.
>
That's a reasonable choice. I don't get hangovers, so it isn't much of
a roller-coaster for me. I do like changes in my state of
consciousness, though, I enjoy sleep, I like being sober too (I spend
most of my time in that state, as it happens), I enjoy what alcohol
does and I'm quite partial to the effects of magic mushrooms
occasionally too. I think that, if you consider that a roller-coaster
ride, then I do like it, particularly as I seldom have an dips.

With red wine you don't need to seal it, the next day it can be even
better having had a whole day breathing.

Socially inappropriate behaviour? I know that excessive alcohol has
led to a lot of that in the UK, but I'm fortunate that my behaviour
remains about as inappropriate whether I'm drunk or sober - at least
that's what I gather from people who know me...
>
> > It had a beneficent side-effect for my fellow
> > travellers, though. They were a very sad bunch until I entertained
> > them with a little sketch on the wonders of travelling with South
> > African Airways - even the SAA officials seemed to approve of it.
>
> Is entertaining sad travellers worth the health risk?
>
For me, yes.
>
> > My wife is peeved that I don't even have the hangover that I ought to
> > have in these circumstances...
>
> Just tell her it's a useful early warning system that you lack, and
> your liver's probably shot :-)
>
> That'll cheer her up.
>
Yes, but it wouldn't be true. People with buggered livers have
horrible hangovers, it's one of natures way of supporting puritans.

On Jun 7, 11:37 am, Paul Grieg  wrote:
> On Jun 7, 12:12 am, "graham"  wrote:
>
> > "Paul Grieg"  wrote in message
>
> >news:e674a8fb-2a70-41f6-9993-c92a8617913b@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...> > On Jun 5, 7:47 pm, "PG"  wrote:
>
> > Wittgenstein thought food was too
> > trivial to waste time over so had the same lunch every day (boiled egg
> > & a lump of cheese).
>
> > What a miserable sod he must have been!
> > Graham
>
> Why? Have you any research to show that following a simple diet makes
> one a miserable sod? His final words were: “Tell them I had a
> wonderful life.” Doesn't sound miserable to me.

I know that there is a Christian ideology that says that self-
punishment is good for a person. It is the ideology that resulted in
hairshirts and self-mutilation. But why any humanist should believe
that the pleasure of food is worth throwing away is beyond me. In what
way would eating well have hurt Wittgenstein, or anyone else? Surely
the life of Wittgenstein having the same miserable food everyday is
less good than the same life in which he had a variety of tasty
breakfasts and lunches?

Lance

On Jun 9, 11:23 pm, Lance  wrote:
> On Jun 7, 11:37 am, Paul Grieg  wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 7, 12:12 am, "graham"  wrote:
>
> > > "Paul Grieg"  wrote in message
>
> > >news:e674a8fb-2a70-41f6-9993-c92a8617913b@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com.> > > On Jun 5, 7:47 pm, "PG"  wrote:
>
> > > Wittgenstein thought food was too
> > > trivial to waste time over so had the same lunch every day (boiled egg> > > & a lump of cheese).
>
> > > What a miserable sod he must have been!
> > > Graham
>
> > Why? Have you any research to show that following a simple diet makes
> > one a miserable sod? His final words were: “Tell them I had a
> > wonderful life.” Doesn't sound miserable to me.
>
> I know that there is a Christian ideology that says that self-
> punishment is good for a person. It is the ideology that resulted in
> hairshirts and self-mutilation. But why any humanist should believe
> that the pleasure of food is worth throwing away is beyond me. In what
> way would eating well have hurt Wittgenstein, or anyone else? Surely
> the life of Wittgenstein having the same miserable food everyday is
> less good than the same life in which he had a variety of tasty
> breakfasts and lunches?
>
I'm not sure that puritanism is just a Christian ideology. Though I
agree that in the case of the old communist countries, some of the
killjoys and prigs may have had some christian influence as an excuse,
the Chinese and Koreans haven't. Communism is another puritan religion
- as, in some ways, is Islam. It runs pretty deep, the misanthropic
vein, I'm afraid!

"Lance"  wrote in message 
news:968ccd3f-dc1c-4105-8c2e-3672c82a5b4f@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 7, 11:37 am, Paul Grieg  wrote:
> On Jun 7, 12:12 am, "graham"  wrote:
>
> > "Paul Grieg"  wrote in message
>
> >news:e674a8fb-2a70-41f6-9993-c92a8617913b@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jun 5, 7:47 pm, "PG"  wrote:
>
> > Wittgenstein thought food was too
> > trivial to waste time over so had the same lunch every day (boiled egg
> > & a lump of cheese).
>
> > What a miserable sod he must have been!
> > Graham
>
> Why? Have you any research to show that following a simple diet makes
> one a miserable sod? His final words were: “Tell them I had a
> wonderful life.” Doesn't sound miserable to me.

I know that there is a Christian ideology that says that self-
punishment is good for a person. It is the ideology that resulted in
hairshirts and self-mutilation. But why any humanist should believe
that the pleasure of food is worth throwing away is beyond me. In what
way would eating well have hurt Wittgenstein, or anyone else? Surely
the life of Wittgenstein having the same miserable food everyday is
less good than the same life in which he had a variety of tasty
breakfasts and lunches?

________________________________________________________

I wonder if his attitude to music was similar.
Graham

valley wrote:
> "Lance"  wrote in message
> news:968ccd3f-dc1c-4105-8c2e-3672c82a5b4f@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 7, 11:37 am, Paul Grieg  wrote:
> > On Jun 7, 12:12 am, "graham"  wrote:
> >
> > > "Paul Grieg"  wrote in message
> >
> > >news:e674a8fb-2a70-41f6-9993-c92a8617913b@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com.> > > On Jun 5, 7:47 pm, "PG"  wrote:
> >
> > > Wittgenstein thought food was too
> > > trivial to waste time over so had the same lunch every day (boiled egg> > > & a lump of cheese).
> >
> > > What a miserable sod he must have been!
> > > Graham
> >
> > Why? Have you any research to show that following a simple diet makes
> > one a miserable sod? His final words were: �Tell them I had a
> > wonderful life.� Doesn't sound miserable to me.
>
> I know that there is a Christian ideology that says that self-
> punishment is good for a person. It is the ideology that resulted in
> hairshirts and self-mutilation. But why any humanist should believe
> that the pleasure of food is worth throwing away is beyond me. In what
> way would eating well have hurt Wittgenstein, or anyone else? Surely
> the life of Wittgenstein having the same miserable food everyday is
> less good than the same life in which he had a variety of tasty
> breakfasts and lunches?
>
> ________________________________________________________
>
> I wonder if his attitude to music was similar.
> Graham

Wittgenstein's brother was a famous one-handed (due to war injuries)
pianist. I'm sure Wittgenstein loved music. But he may have witheld
the pleasure of music, perhaps, in order to make himself a bette
philsopher?

Lance

On Jun 9, 10:23 pm, Lance  wrote:
> On Jun 7, 11:37 am, Paul Grieg  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 7, 12:12 am, "graham"  wrote:
>
> > > "Paul Grieg"  wrote in message
>
> > >news:e674a8fb-2a70-41f6-9993-c92a8617913b@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com.> > > On Jun 5, 7:47 pm, "PG"  wrote:
>
> > > Wittgenstein thought food was too
> > > trivial to waste time over so had the same lunch every day (boiled egg> > > & a lump of cheese).
>
> > > What a miserable sod he must have been!
> > > Graham
>
> > Why? Have you any research to show that following a simple diet makes
> > one a miserable sod? His final words were: “Tell them I had a
> > wonderful life.” Doesn't sound miserable to me.
>
> I know that there is a Christian ideology that says that self-
> punishment is good for a person. It is the ideology that resulted in
> hairshirts and self-mutilation. But why any humanist should believe
> that the pleasure of food is worth throwing away is beyond me. In what
> way would eating well have hurt Wittgenstein, or anyone else? Surely
> the life of Wittgenstein having the same miserable food everyday is
> less good than the same life in which he had a variety of tasty
> breakfasts and lunches?

I just did a search for "egg" and "cheese" in Monk's biography on
Amazon look inside. Most amusing.

His simplicity extended to eating out with posh types, invariably this
meant egg, bread & milk at a cafe, worn jacket, no tie...

This was a great way of filtering out superficial young ladies (p.239)

He did at one stage have (every day) porridge for breakfast,
vegetables at lunch and a boiled egg in the evening. This is the only
complete account of his diet I can find -- and it looks pretty
healthy.

How are egg, porridge and vegetables miserable? Good simple fair...

He only had cheese sandwiches when staying with Norman Malcolm --
perhaps he didn't like his cooking :-)

Many philosophers have held that the difference between a simple,
healthy diet and the sort of a la carte existence you mention is
trivial. The time & money saving that comes with extreme simplicity is
much more important -- it gives you a significant amount of time for
higher matters.

Of course, if the philosopher is independently wealthy enough to eat
out a la carte all the time, why not. That's what Schopenhauer did,
though always at the same hotel.

Curtailment of trivia seems to be the main thing.

So it's not a hair shirt existence, it's replacing insignificant lower
pleasures with higher pleasures.

On Jun 10, 3:20 am, "valley"  wrote:
> "Lance"  wrote in message
>
> news:968ccd3f-dc1c-4105-8c2e-3672c82a5b4f@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 7, 11:37 am, Paul Grieg  wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 7, 12:12 am, "graham"  wrote:
>
> > > "Paul Grieg"  wrote in message
>
> > >news:e674a8fb-2a70-41f6-9993-c92a8617913b@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com.> > > On Jun 5, 7:47 pm, "PG"  wrote:
>
> > > Wittgenstein thought food was too
> > > trivial to waste time over so had the same lunch every day (boiled egg> > > & a lump of cheese).
>
> > > What a miserable sod he must have been!
> > > Graham
>
> > Why? Have you any research to show that following a simple diet makes
> > one a miserable sod? His final words were: “Tell them I had a
> > wonderful life.” Doesn't sound miserable to me.
>
> I know that there is a Christian ideology that says that self-
> punishment is good for a person. It is the ideology that resulted in
> hairshirts and self-mutilation. But why any humanist should believe
> that the pleasure of food is worth throwing away is beyond me. In what
> way would eating well have hurt Wittgenstein, or anyone else? Surely
> the life of Wittgenstein having the same miserable food everyday is
> less good than the same life in which he had a variety of tasty
> breakfasts and lunches?
>
> ________________________________________________________
>
> I wonder if his attitude to music was similar.
> Graham

It was simple in that he didn't like anyone after Brahms, and even in
him he detected "the sound of machines". He preferred Mozart and
Beethoven. But he was forever bolting down his cheese sandwiches and
rushing to Cambridge classisal music performances. See if he'd got out
his cookbook he'd have missed the music, thereby replacing the
essential with the trivial.

On Jun 10, 9:54 am, Lance  wrote:
> valley wrote:
> > "Lance"  wrote in message
> >news:968ccd3f-dc1c-4105-8c2e-3672c82a5b4f@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...> > On Jun 7, 11:37 am, Paul Grieg  wrote:
> > > On Jun 7, 12:12 am, "graham"  wrote:
>
> > > > "Paul Grieg"  wrote in message
>
> > > >news:e674a8fb-2a70-41f6-9993-c92a8617913b@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> > > > On Jun 5, 7:47 pm, "PG"  wrote:
>
> > > > Wittgenstein thought food was too
> > > > trivial to waste time over so had the same lunch every day (boiled egg
> > > > & a lump of cheese).
>
> > > > What a miserable sod he must have been!
> > > > Graham
>
> > > Why? Have you any research to show that following a simple diet makes
> > > one a miserable sod? His final words were: �Tell them I had a
> > > wonderful life.� Doesn't sound miserable to me.
>
> > I know that there is a Christian ideology that says that self-
> > punishment is good for a person. It is the ideology that resulted in
> > hairshirts and self-mutilation. But why any humanist should believe
> > that the pleasure of food is worth throwing away is beyond me. In what
> > way would eating well have hurt Wittgenstein, or anyone else? Surely
> > the life of Wittgenstein having the same miserable food everyday is
> > less good than the same life in which he had a variety of tasty
> > breakfasts and lunches?
>
> > ________________________________________________________
>
> > I wonder if his attitude to music was similar.
> > Graham
>
> Wittgenstein's brother was a famous one-handed (due to war injuries)
> pianist. I'm sure Wittgenstein loved music. But he may have witheld
> the pleasure of music, perhaps, in order to make himself a bette
> philsopher?
>
> Lance

I recommend reading Monk's biography. It's a really good read, as
clear as Wittgenstein is obscure (!), and will clear up most of these
lifestyle speculations.

On Jun 10, 1:18 pm, Paul Grieg  wrote:
>
>
> It was simple in that he didn't like anyone after Brahms, and even in
> him he detected "the sound of machines". He preferred Mozart and
> Beethoven. But he was forever bolting down his cheese sandwiches and
> rushing to Cambridge classisal music performances. See if he'd got out
> his cookbook he'd have missed the music, thereby replacing the
> essential with the trivial.
>
Cookery is essential, music not. Somebody who despises food is
probably a smoker or suffers from a lack of taste brought on by
chronic olfactory dysfunction. I don't think Wittgenstein had the
excuse of being a smoker. He went to the same school, though, as
Hitler, who ended up suffering from vegetarianism (and was also a non-
smoker), another form of food-hatred, so there might be a school
related connection.

We haven't discussed the philosophy of cookery here much. It might be
a worthy subject. There's a book with that title by Nancy Ogg, though
I think that Larousse Gastronomique and the companion book by
Curnonski might be more authentic for sauces.

"La sauce est tout" can certainly be read as a philosophical
statement.

Thinking of Lance's recent word puzzle, it might be interesting to
speculate on any significance in g-free gastronomy being the study of
the cosmos.

I think that, in recent times, Jane Grigson could be said to have
produced studies in the philosophy of cookery - though Mrs Beeton with
'first catch your hare' got there first, and, to some, perhaps, being
considerably less practical, more convincingly.

Music ought to be an accompaniment to good digestion and somebody who
inflicts a hasty cheese sandwich on his tum before a concert is very
likely doing digestion of both a disservice.

On Jun 10, 2:27 pm, Peter Brooks  wrote:
> On Jun 10, 1:18 pm, Paul Grieg  wrote:
>
> > It was simple in that he didn't like anyone after Brahms, and even in
> > him he detected "the sound of machines". He preferred Mozart and
> > Beethoven. But he was forever bolting down his cheese sandwiches and
> > rushing to Cambridge classisal music performances. See if he'd got