I still find it hard to believe that Democratic freedom loving America
seems to find it acceptable to torture prisoners. And the abuse seems
to be ongoing...

Lance

-----------------------------
NYT
May 22, 2008
Editorial

What the F.B.I. Agents Saw

Does this sound familiar? Muslim men are stripped in front of female
guards and sexually humiliated. A prisoner is made to wear a dog’s
collar and leash, another is hooded with women’s underwear. Others are
shackled in stress positions for hours, held in isolation for months,
and threatened with attack dogs.

You might think we are talking about that one cell block in Abu
Ghraib, where President Bush wants the world to believe a few rogue
soldiers dreamed up a sadistic nightmare. These atrocities were
committed in the interrogation centers in American military prisons in
Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. And they were not revealed
by Red Cross officials, human rights activists, Democrats in Congress
or others the administration writes off as soft-on-terror.

They were described in a painful report by the Justice Department’s
inspector general, based on the accounts of hundreds of F.B.I. agents
who saw American interrogators repeatedly mistreat prisoners in ways
that the agents considered violations of American law and the Geneva
Conventions. According to the report, some of the agents began keeping
a “war crimes file” — until they were ordered to stop.

These were not random acts. It is clear from the inspector general’s
report that this was organized behavior by both civilian and military
interrogators following the specific orders of top officials. The
report shows what happens when an American president, his secretary of
defense, his Justice Department and other top officials corrupt
American law to rationalize and authorize the abuse, humiliation and
torture of prisoners:

— Four F.B.I. agents saw an interrogator cuff two detainees and force
water down their throats.

— Prisoners at Guantánamo were shackled hand-to-foot for prolonged
periods and subjected to extreme heat and cold.

— At least one detainee at Guantánamo was kept in an isolation cell
for at least two months, a practice the military considers to be
torture when applied to American soldiers.

The study said F.B.I. agents reported this illegal behavior to
Washington. They were told not to take part, but the bureau appears to
have done nothing to end the abuse. It certainly never told Congress
or the American people. The inspector general said the agents’
concerns were conveyed to the National Security Council, but he found
no evidence that it acted on them.

Mr. Bush claims harsh interrogations produced invaluable intelligence,
but the F.B.I. agents said the abuse was ineffective. They also
predicted, accurately, that it would be impossible to prosecute abused
prisoners.

For years, Mr. Bush has refused to tell the truth about his
administration’s inhuman policy on prisoners, and the Republican-
controlled Congress eagerly acquiesced to his stonewalling. Now, the
Democrats in charge of Congress must press for full disclosure.

Representative John Conyers, who leads the House Judiciary Committee,
said he would focus on the F.B.I. report at upcoming hearings.
Witnesses are to include John C. Yoo, who wrote the infamous torture
memos, and the committee has subpoenaed David Addington, Vice
President Dick Cheney’s chief of staff. Mr. Conyers also wants to
question F.B.I. Director Robert Mueller and Attorney General Michael
Mukasey, both of whom should be subpoenaed if they do not come
voluntarily.

That is just the first step toward uncovering the extent of President
Bush’s disregard for the law and the Geneva Conventions. It will be a
painful process to learn how so many people were abused and how
America’s most basic values were betrayed. But it is the only way to
get this country back to being a defender, not a violator, of human
rights.

On May 22, 10:50 am, Lance  wrote:
> I still find it hard to believe that Democratic freedom loving America
> seems to find it acceptable to torture prisoners. And the abuse seems
> to be ongoing...
>
I don't think that it is a surprise. Part of the reason that the Yanks
were surprised at the rest of the world's shock at their torturing
people in Cuba, Iraq and other parts of the world was that they were
used to doing it at home.

The 'three strikes and you're out' law is part of the same phenomenon.
Yanks truly believe that criminals are 'not like them' and sub-human.
That's why they aren't concerned about their massive prison
population, nor about torture.

On May 23, 11:56 am, Peter Brooks  wrote:
> On May 22, 10:50 am, Lance  wrote:> I still find it hard to believe that Democratic freedom loving America
> > seems to find it acceptable to torture prisoners. And the abuse seems
> > to be ongoing...
>
> I don't think that it is a surprise. Part of the reason that the Yanks
> were surprised at the rest of the world's shock at their torturing
> people in Cuba, Iraq and other parts of the world was that they were
> used to doing it at home.
>
> The 'three strikes and you're out' law is part of the same phenomenon.
> Yanks truly believe that criminals are 'not like them' and sub-human.
> That's why they aren't concerned about their massive prison
> population, nor about torture.

There seems to be quite a lot about prisoners in American books and
films and TV. Documentation about the psychological consequences of
the new geenration of maximum security prisons is American. It seems
to me that your remark is a gross exaggeration. But I would agree that
there are substantial numbers of Americans who think that individuals
who break the law are no longer really human.

Lance

On May 27, 2:37 pm, Lance  wrote:
> On May 23, 11:56 am, Peter Brooks  wrote:
>
> > On May 22, 10:50 am, Lance  wrote:> I still find it hard to believe that Democratic freedom loving America
> > > seems to find it acceptable to torture prisoners. And the abuse seems
> > > to be ongoing...
>
> > I don't think that it is a surprise. Part of the reason that the Yanks
> > were surprised at the rest of the world's shock at their torturing
> > people in Cuba, Iraq and other parts of the world was that they were
> > used to doing it at home.
>
> > The 'three strikes and you're out' law is part of the same phenomenon.
> > Yanks truly believe that criminals are 'not like them' and sub-human.
> > That's why they aren't concerned about their massive prison
> > population, nor about torture.
>
> There seems to be quite a lot about prisoners in American books and
> films and TV. Documentation about the psychological consequences of
> the new geenration of maximum security prisons is American. It seems
> to me that your remark is a gross exaggeration. But I would agree that
> there are substantial numbers of Americans who think that individuals
> who break the law are no longer really human.
>
That really is my point - and the relegation of people to sub-human
status is the creator of a great many evils. Sadly, in South Africa,
we see this very clearly in the recent racist attacks - though, as
with the dehumanising of prisoners - there is usually a reason behind
it. Supporting a corrupt regime next door is going to lead to refugees
who will cause unhappiness when they, like many refugees, struggle to
achieve economic stability, and succeed.