New research shows consistency in synaesthetic experiences

A quirky psychological phenomenon known as "grapheme-color
synaesthesia"
describes individuals who experience vivid colors whenever they see,
hear, or
think of ordinary letters and digits. A hallmark of synaesthesia is
that
individuals seem to be idiosyncratic in their experiences. That is,
most
synesthaetes will consistently see the same colors accompanied with
specific
graphemes, but few of these experiences appear to be shared with other
synesthetes.

But new research appearing in the April issue of Psychological
Science, a
journal of the Association for Psychological Science, adds to a
growing body of
evidence suggesting that commonalities do indeed exists across
synesthetes. In
their own study of 70 synesthetes, and a reanalysis of 19 more in
previously
published data, psychologists Julia Simner, of the University of
Edinburgh and
Jamie Ward of the University of Sussex have found that synesthetes
share certain
grapheme-color combinations (for example, the letter 'a' is frequently
associated with seeing the color red).

Interestingly, they found that the particular pairings are determined
by how
frequently graphemes and the colour terms are used is used in
language: common
letters (e.g., "a") pair with common colour terms (e.g., 'red') and
uncommon
letters (e.g., 'v') pair with uncommon colour terms (e.g., 'purple').
This shows
that perceptual synaesthetic experiences are influenced by
environmental
learning.

They then made an interesting discovery about all people. Colleagues
had
reported that that the frequency of graphemes influenced the
saturation of the
colour, but Simner and Ward discovered the root of this effect: that
colors we
speak about most often (i.e., those with the highest linguistic
frequency) are
the least saturated (e.g., black, white).

Although these findings may help explain common features of
synaesthesia, the
precise relationship remains unclear, according to the authors.
However, the
current study aligns with past research suggesting "that different
measures of
such associations converge to illustrate a nonarbitrary relationship
for all
people between color names and color space."

Source: Association for Psychological Science
http://www.physorg.com/news128707448.html

On 30 Apr, 10:56, Lance  wrote:
> New research shows consistency in synaesthetic experiences
>
> A quirky psychological phenomenon known as "grapheme-color
> synaesthesia"
> describes individuals who experience vivid colors whenever they see,
> hear, or
> think of ordinary letters and digits. A hallmark of synaesthesia is
> that
> individuals seem to be idiosyncratic in their experiences. That is,
> most
> synesthaetes will consistently see the same colors accompanied with
> specific
> graphemes, but few of these experiences appear to be shared with other
> synesthetes.
>
> But new research appearing in the April issue of Psychological
> Science, a
> journal of the Association for Psychological Science, adds to a
> growing body of
> evidence suggesting that commonalities do indeed exists across
> synesthetes. In
> their own study of 70 synesthetes, and a reanalysis of 19 more in
> previously
> published data, psychologists Julia Simner, of the University of
> Edinburgh and
> Jamie Ward of the University of Sussex have found that synesthetes
> share certain
> grapheme-color combinations (for example, the letter 'a' is frequently
> associated with seeing the color red).
>
> Interestingly, they found that the particular pairings are determined
> by how
> frequently graphemes and the colour terms are used is used in
> language: common
> letters (e.g., "a") pair with common colour terms (e.g., 'red') and
> uncommon
> letters (e.g., 'v') pair with uncommon colour terms (e.g., 'purple').
> This shows
> that perceptual synaesthetic experiences are influenced by
> environmental
> learning.
>
> They then made an interesting discovery about all people. Colleagues
> had
> reported that that the frequency of graphemes influenced the
> saturation of the
> colour, but Simner and Ward discovered the root of this effect: that
> colors we
> speak about most often (i.e., those with the highest linguistic
> frequency) are
> the least saturated (e.g., black, white).
>
> Although these findings may help explain common features of
> synaesthesia, the
> precise relationship remains unclear, according to the authors.
> However, the
> current study aligns with past research suggesting "that different
> measures of
> such associations converge to illustrate a nonarbitrary relationship
> for all
> people between color names and color space."
>
> Source: Association for Psychological Sciencehttp://www.physorg.com/news128707448.htm


However, Jeffrey Gray argued (in 'Consciousness: creeping up on the
hard problem') that "word-colour synesthesia is based upon an
abnormal, probably genetically determined, projection hard-wired into
the brain".

Dave

On May 1, 12:51 am, Dave Smith  wrote:
> On 30 Apr, 10:56, Lance  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > New research shows consistency in synaesthetic experiences
>
> > A quirky psychological phenomenon known as "grapheme-color
> > synaesthesia"
> > describes individuals who experience vivid colors whenever they see,
> > hear, or
> > think of ordinary letters and digits. A hallmark of synaesthesia is
> > that
> > individuals seem to be idiosyncratic in their experiences. That is,
> > most
> > synesthaetes will consistently see the same colors accompanied with
> > specific
> > graphemes, but few of these experiences appear to be shared with other
> > synesthetes.
>
> > But new research appearing in the April issue of Psychological
> > Science, a
> > journal of the Association for Psychological Science, adds to a
> > growing body of
> > evidence suggesting that commonalities do indeed exists across
> > synesthetes. In
> > their own study of 70 synesthetes, and a reanalysis of 19 more in
> > previously
> > published data, psychologists Julia Simner, of the University of
> > Edinburgh and
> > Jamie Ward of the University of Sussex have found that synesthetes
> > share certain
> > grapheme-color combinations (for example, the letter 'a' is frequently
> > associated with seeing the color red).
>
> > Interestingly, they found that the particular pairings are determined
> > by how
> > frequently graphemes and the colour terms are used is used in
> > language: common
> > letters (e.g., "a") pair with common colour terms (e.g., 'red') and
> > uncommon
> > letters (e.g., 'v') pair with uncommon colour terms (e.g., 'purple').
> > This shows
> > that perceptual synaesthetic experiences are influenced by
> > environmental
> > learning.
>
> > They then made an interesting discovery about all people. Colleagues
> > had
> > reported that that the frequency of graphemes influenced the
> > saturation of the
> > colour, but Simner and Ward discovered the root of this effect: that
> > colors we
> > speak about most often (i.e., those with the highest linguistic
> > frequency) are
> > the least saturated (e.g., black, white).
>
> > Although these findings may help explain common features of
> > synaesthesia, the
> > precise relationship remains unclear, according to the authors.
> > However, the
> > current study aligns with past research suggesting "that different
> > measures of
> > such associations converge to illustrate a nonarbitrary relationship
> > for all
> > people between color names and color space."
>
> > Source: Association for Psychological Sciencehttp://www.physorg.com/news128707448.htm
>
> However, Jeffrey Gray argued (in 'Consciousness: creeping up on the
> hard problem') that "word-colour synesthesia is based upon an
> abnormal, probably genetically determined, projection hard-wired into
> the brain".
>
> Dave- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thanks for the comment - but (forgive me) so what?

Lance

On 1 May, 12:08, Lance  wrote:
> On May 1, 12:51 am, Dave Smith  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 30 Apr, 10:56, Lance  wrote:
>
> > > New research shows consistency in synaesthetic experiences
>
> > > A quirky psychological phenomenon known as "grapheme-color
> > > synaesthesia"
> > > describes individuals who experience vivid colors whenever they see,
> > > hear, or
> > > think of ordinary letters and digits. A hallmark of synaesthesia is
> > > that
> > > individuals seem to be idiosyncratic in their experiences. That is,
> > > most
> > > synesthaetes will consistently see the same colors accompanied with
> > > specific
> > > graphemes, but few of these experiences appear to be shared with other> > > synesthetes.
>
> > > But new research appearing in the April issue of Psychological
> > > Science, a
> > > journal of the Association for Psychological Science, adds to a
> > > growing body of
> > > evidence suggesting that commonalities do indeed exists across
> > > synesthetes. In
> > > their own study of 70 synesthetes, and a reanalysis of 19 more in
> > > previously
> > > published data, psychologists Julia Simner, of the University of
> > > Edinburgh and
> > > Jamie Ward of the University of Sussex have found that synesthetes
> > > share certain
> > > grapheme-color combinations (for example, the letter 'a' is frequently> > > associated with seeing the color red).
>
> > > Interestingly, they found that the particular pairings are determined
> > > by how
> > > frequently graphemes and the colour terms are used is used in
> > > language: common
> > > letters (e.g., "a") pair with common colour terms (e.g., 'red') and
> > > uncommon
> > > letters (e.g., 'v') pair with uncommon colour terms (e.g., 'purple').
> > > This shows
> > > that perceptual synaesthetic experiences are influenced by
> > > environmental
> > > learning.
>
> > > They then made an interesting discovery about all people. Colleagues
> > > had
> > > reported that that the frequency of graphemes influenced the
> > > saturation of the
> > > colour, but Simner and Ward discovered the root of this effect: that
> > > colors we
> > > speak about most often (i.e., those with the highest linguistic
> > > frequency) are
> > > the least saturated (e.g., black, white).
>
> > > Although these findings may help explain common features of
> > > synaesthesia, the
> > > precise relationship remains unclear, according to the authors.
> > > However, the
> > > current study aligns with past research suggesting "that different
> > > measures of
> > > such associations converge to illustrate a nonarbitrary relationship
> > > for all
> > > people between color names and color space."
>
> > > Source: Association for Psychological Sciencehttp://www.physorg.com/news128707448.htm
>
> > However, Jeffrey Gray argued (in 'Consciousness: creeping up on the
> > hard problem') that "word-colour synesthesia is based upon an
> > abnormal, probably genetically determined, projection hard-wired into
> > the brain".
>
> > Dave- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Thanks for the comment - but (forgive me) so what?
>
> Lance- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I have only superficial knowledge of the issue, but there seems to be
a difference of opinion about whether word-colour synesthesia is
affected by learning.

Dave

Dave Smith wrote:
> On 1 May, 12:08, Lance  wrote:
> > On May 1, 12:51�am, Dave Smith  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > On 30 Apr, 10:56, Lance  wrote:
> >
> > > > New research shows consistency in synaesthetic experiences
> >
> > > > A quirky psychological phenomenon known as "grapheme-color
> > > > synaesthesia"
> > > > describes individuals who experience vivid colors whenever they see,> > > > hear, or
> > > > think of ordinary letters and digits. A hallmark of synaesthesia is
> > > > that
> > > > individuals seem to be idiosyncratic in their experiences. That is,
> > > > most
> > > > synesthaetes will consistently see the same colors accompanied with
> > > > specific
> > > > graphemes, but few of these experiences appear to be shared with other
> > > > synesthetes.
> >
> > > > But new research appearing in the April issue of Psychological
> > > > Science, a
> > > > journal of the Association for Psychological Science, adds to a
> > > > growing body of
> > > > evidence suggesting that commonalities do indeed exists across
> > > > synesthetes. In
> > > > their own study of 70 synesthetes, and a reanalysis of 19 more in
> > > > previously
> > > > published data, psychologists Julia Simner, of the University of
> > > > Edinburgh and
> > > > Jamie Ward of the University of Sussex have found that synesthetes
> > > > share certain
> > > > grapheme-color combinations (for example, the letter 'a' is frequently
> > > > associated with seeing the color red).
> >
> > > > Interestingly, they found that the particular pairings are determined
> > > > by how
> > > > frequently graphemes and the colour terms are used is used in
> > > > language: common
> > > > letters (e.g., "a") pair with common colour terms (e.g., 'red') and
> > > > uncommon
> > > > letters (e.g., 'v') pair with uncommon colour terms (e.g., 'purple')> > > > This shows
> > > > that perceptual synaesthetic experiences are influenced by
> > > > environmental
> > > > learning.
> >
> > > > They then made an interesting discovery about all people. Colleagues> > > > had
> > > > reported that that the frequency of graphemes influenced the
> > > > saturation of the
> > > > colour, but Simner and Ward discovered the root of this effect: that> > > > colors we
> > > > speak about most often (i.e., those with the highest linguistic
> > > > frequency) are
> > > > the least saturated (e.g., black, white).
> >
> > > > Although these findings may help explain common features of
> > > > synaesthesia, the
> > > > precise relationship remains unclear, according to the authors.
> > > > However, the
> > > > current study aligns with past research suggesting "that different
> > > > measures of
> > > > such associations converge to illustrate a nonarbitrary relationship> > > > for all
> > > > people between color names and color space."
> >
> > > > Source: Association for Psychological Sciencehttp://www.physorg.com/news128707448.htm
> >
> > > However, Jeffrey Gray argued (in 'Consciousness: creeping up on the
> > > hard problem') that "word-colour synesthesia is based upon an
> > > abnormal, probably genetically determined, projection hard-wired into
> > > the brain".
> >
> > > Dave- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > > - Show quoted text -
> >
> > Thanks for the comment - but (forgive me) so what?
> >
> > Lance- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I have only superficial knowledge of the issue, but there seems to be
> a difference of opinion about whether word-colour synesthesia is
> affected by learning.
>
> Dave

OK. However the article posted above does provide some fresh evidence
that synaesthesia is responsive to experience. Perhaps you find it
unconvincing?

Lance

On 2 May, 15:02, Lance  wrote:
> Dave Smith wrote:
> > On 1 May, 12:08, Lance  wrote:
> > > On May 1, 12:51�am, Dave Smith  wrote:
>
> > > > On 30 Apr, 10:56, Lance  wrote:
>
> > > > > New research shows consistency in synaesthetic experiences
>
> > > > > A quirky psychological phenomenon known as "grapheme-color
> > > > > synaesthesia"
> > > > > describes individuals who experience vivid colors whenever they see,
> > > > > hear, or
> > > > > think of ordinary letters and digits. A hallmark of synaesthesia is
> > > > > that
> > > > > individuals seem to be idiosyncratic in their experiences. That is> > > > > most
> > > > > synesthaetes will consistently see the same colors accompanied with
> > > > > specific
> > > > > graphemes, but few of these experiences appear to be shared with other
> > > > > synesthetes.
>
> > > > > But new research appearing in the April issue of Psychological
> > > > > Science, a
> > > > > journal of the Association for Psychological Science, adds to a
> > > > > growing body of
> > > > > evidence suggesting that commonalities do indeed exists across
> > > > > synesthetes. In
> > > > > their own study of 70 synesthetes, and a reanalysis of 19 more in
> > > > > previously
> > > > > published data, psychologists Julia Simner, of the University of
> > > > > Edinburgh and
> > > > > Jamie Ward of the University of Sussex have found that synesthetes> > > > > share certain
> > > > > grapheme-color combinations (for example, the letter 'a' is frequently
> > > > > associated with seeing the color red).
>
> > > > > Interestingly, they found that the particular pairings are determined
> > > > > by how
> > > > > frequently graphemes and the colour terms are used is used in
> > > > > language: common
> > > > > letters (e.g., "a") pair with common colour terms (e.g., 'red') and
> > > > > uncommon
> > > > > letters (e.g., 'v') pair with uncommon colour terms (e.g., 'purple> > > > > This shows
> > > > > that perceptual synaesthetic experiences are influenced by
> > > > > environmental
> > > > > learning.
>
> > > > > They then made an interesting discovery about all people. Colleagues
> > > > > had
> > > > > reported that that the frequency of graphemes influenced the
> > > > > saturation of the
> > > > > colour, but Simner and Ward discovered the root of this effect: that
> > > > > colors we
> > > > > speak about most often (i.e., those with the highest linguistic
> > > > > frequency) are
> > > > > the least saturated (e.g., black, white).
>
> > > > > Although these findings may help explain common features of
> > > > > synaesthesia, the
> > > > > precise relationship remains unclear, according to the authors.
> > > > > However, the
> > > > > current study aligns with past research suggesting "that different> > > > > measures of
> > > > > such associations converge to illustrate a nonarbitrary relationship
> > > > > for all
> > > > > people between color names and color space."
>
> > > > > Source: Association for Psychological Sciencehttp://www.physorg.com/news128707448.htm
>
> > > > However, Jeffrey Gray argued (in 'Consciousness: creeping up on the
> > > > hard problem') that "word-colour synesthesia is based upon an
> > > > abnormal, probably genetically determined, projection hard-wired into
> > > > the brain".
>
> > > > Dave- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > Thanks for the comment - but (forgive me) so what?
>
> > > Lance- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > I have only superficial knowledge of the issue, but there seems to be
> > a difference of opinion about whether word-colour synesthesia is
> > affected by learning.
>
> > Dave
>
> OK. However the article posted above does provide some fresh evidence
> that synaesthesia is responsive to experience. Perhaps you find it
> unconvincing?
>
> Lance- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I didn't grasp some of the argument.  In particular,  what is the
reasoning here?

"Interestingly, they found that the particular pairings are determined
by how frequently graphemes and the colour terms are used [is used] in
language: common letters (e.g., "a") pair with common colour terms
(e.g., 'red') and uncommon letters (e.g., 'v') pair with uncommon
colour terms (e.g., 'purple').  This shows that perceptual
synaesthetic experiences are influenced by environmental learning."

On May 2, 10:04 pm, Dave Smith  wrote:
> On 2 May, 15:02, Lance  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Dave Smith wrote:
> > > On 1 May, 12:08, Lance  wrote:
> > > > On May 1, 12:51�am, Dave Smith  wrote:
>
> > > > > On 30 Apr, 10:56, Lance  wrote:
>
> > > > > > New research shows consistency in synaesthetic experiences
>
> > > > > > A quirky psychological phenomenon known as "grapheme-color
> > > > > > synaesthesia"
> > > > > > describes individuals who experience vivid colors whenever they see,
> > > > > > hear, or
> > > > > > think of ordinary letters and digits. A hallmark of synaesthesia is
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > individuals seem to be idiosyncratic in their experiences. That is,
> > > > > > most
> > > > > > synesthaetes will consistently see the same colors accompanied with
> > > > > > specific
> > > > > > graphemes, but few of these experiences appear to be shared with other
> > > > > > synesthetes.
>
> > > > > > But new research appearing in the April issue of Psychological
> > > > > > Science, a
> > > > > > journal of the Association for Psychological Science, adds to a
> > > > > > growing body of
> > > > > > evidence suggesting that commonalities do indeed exists across
> > > > > > synesthetes. In
> > > > > > their own study of 70 synesthetes, and a reanalysis of 19 more in
> > > > > > previously
> > > > > > published data, psychologists Julia Simner, of the University of> > > > > > Edinburgh and
> > > > > > Jamie Ward of the University of Sussex have found that synesthetes
> > > > > > share certain
> > > > > > grapheme-color combinations (for example, the letter 'a' is frequently
> > > > > > associated with seeing the color red).
>
> > > > > > Interestingly, they found that the particular pairings are determined
> > > > > > by how
> > > > > > frequently graphemes and the colour terms are used is used in
> > > > > > language: common
> > > > > > letters (e.g., "a") pair with common colour terms (e.g., 'red') and
> > > > > > uncommon
> > > > > > letters (e.g., 'v') pair with uncommon colour terms (e.g., 'purple').
> > > > > > This shows
> > > > > > that perceptual synaesthetic experiences are influenced by
> > > > > > environmental
> > > > > > learning.
>
> > > > > > They then made an interesting discovery about all people. Colleagues
> > > > > > had
> > > > > > reported that that the frequency of graphemes influenced the
> > > > > > saturation of the
> > > > > > colour, but Simner and Ward discovered the root of this effect: that
> > > > > > colors we
> > > > > > speak about most often (i.e., those with the highest linguistic
> > > > > > frequency) are
> > > > > > the least saturated (e.g., black, white).
>
> > > > > > Although these findings may help explain common features of
> > > > > > synaesthesia, the
> > > > > > precise relationship remains unclear, according to the authors.
> > > > > > However, the
> > > > > > current study aligns with past research suggesting "that different
> > > > > > measures of
> > > > > > such associations converge to illustrate a nonarbitrary relationship
> > > > > > for all
> > > > > > people between color names and color space."
>
> > > > > > Source: Association for Psychological Sciencehttp://www.physorg.com/news128707448.htm
>
> > > > > However, Jeffrey Gray argued (in 'Consciousness: creeping up on the
> > > > > hard problem') that "word-colour synesthesia is based upon an
> > > > > abnormal, probably genetically determined, projection hard-wired into
> > > > > the brain".
>
> > > > > Dave- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > Thanks for the comment - but (forgive me) so what?
>
> > > > Lance- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > I have only superficial knowledge of the issue, but there seems to be
> > > a difference of opinion about whether word-colour synesthesia is
> > > affected by learning.
>
> > > Dave
>
> > OK. However the article posted above does provide some fresh evidence
> > that synaesthesia is responsive to experience. Perhaps you find it
> > unconvincing?
>
> > Lance- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I didn't grasp some of the argument.  In particular,  what is the
> reasoning here?
>
> "Interestingly, they found that the particular pairings are determined
> by how frequently graphemes and the colour terms are used [is used] in
> language: common letters (e.g., "a") pair with common colour terms
> (e.g., 'red') and uncommon letters (e.g., 'v') pair with uncommon
> colour terms (e.g., 'purple').  This shows that perceptual
> synaesthetic experiences are influenced by environmental learning."- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

There are books of words ordered according to how frequently they are
used. I think magazines and newspapers are the primary source for
these lists. Similarly - largely as a result of cryptography research,
there are lists of how frequently particularly letters occur (letters
= graphemes). It seems that the colour associations of synaesthetes
with particular letters are not random, for common (high frequency of
use) letters are paired with colours that have words that are more
frequently used. (I know there is research showing that if a language
distinguishes only one colour taht colour will be red; etc. So the
frequency with which colour words are used is almost certainly not
random).

Lance

On 4 May, 11:03, Lance  wrote:
> On May 2, 10:04 pm, Dave Smith  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 2 May, 15:02, Lance  wrote:
>
> > > Dave Smith wrote:
> > > > On 1 May, 12:08, Lance  wrote:
> > > > > On May 1, 12:51�am, Dave Smith  wrote:
>
> > > > > > On 30 Apr, 10:56, Lance  wrote:
>
> > > > > > > New research shows consistency in synaesthetic experiences
>
> > > > > > > A quirky psychological phenomenon known as "grapheme-color
> > > > > > > synaesthesia"
> > > > > > > describes individuals who experience vivid colors whenever they see,
> > > > > > > hear, or
> > > > > > > think of ordinary letters and digits. A hallmark of synaesthesia is
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > individuals seem to be idiosyncratic in their experiences. That is,
> > > > > > > most
> > > > > > > synesthaetes will consistently see the same colors accompanied with
> > > > > > > specific
> > > > > > > graphemes, but few of these experiences appear to be shared with other
> > > > > > > synesthetes.
>
> > > > > > > But new research appearing in the April issue of Psychological> > > > > > > Science, a
> > > > > > > journal of the Association for Psychological Science, adds to a
> > > > > > > growing body of
> > > > > > > evidence suggesting that commonalities do indeed exists across> > > > > > > synesthetes. In
> > > > > > > their own study of 70 synesthetes, and a reanalysis of 19 more in
> > > > > > > previously
> > > > > > > published data, psychologists Julia Simner, of the University of
> > > > > > > Edinburgh and
> > > > > > > Jamie Ward of the University of Sussex have found that synesthetes
> > > > > > > share certain
> > > > > > > grapheme-color combinations (for example, the letter 'a' is frequently
> > > > > > > associated with seeing the color red).
>
> > > > > > > Interestingly, they found that the particular pairings are determined
> > > > > > > by how
> > > > > > > frequently graphemes and the colour terms are used is used in
> > > > > > > language: common
> > > > > > > letters (e.g., "a") pair with common colour terms (e.g., 'red') and
> > > > > > > uncommon
> > > > > > > letters (e.g., 'v') pair with uncommon colour terms (e.g., 'purple').
> > > > > > > This shows
> > > > > > > that perceptual synaesthetic experiences are influenced by
> > > > > > > environmental
> > > > > > > learning.
>
> > > > > > > They then made an interesting discovery about all people. Colleagues
> > > > > > > had
> > > > > > > reported that that the frequency of graphemes influenced the
> > > > > > > saturation of the
> > > > > > > colour, but Simner and Ward discovered the root of this effect: that
> > > > > > > colors we
> > > > > > > speak about most often (i.e., those with the highest linguistic
> > > > > > > frequency) are
> > > > > > > the least saturated (e.g., black, white).
>
> > > > > > > Although these findings may help explain common features of
> > > > > > > synaesthesia, the
> > > > > > > precise relationship remains unclear, according to the authors> > > > > > > However, the
> > > > > > > current study aligns with past research suggesting "that different
> > > > > > > measures of
> > > > > > > such associations converge to illustrate a nonarbitrary relationship
> > > > > > > for all
> > > > > > > people between color names and color space."
>
> > > > > > > Source: Association for Psychological Sciencehttp://www.physorg.com/news128707448.htm
>
> > > > > > However, Jeffrey Gray argued (in 'Consciousness: creeping up on the
> > > > > > hard problem') that "word-colour synesthesia is based upon an
> > > > > > abnormal, probably genetically determined, projection hard-wired into
> > > > > > the brain".
>
> > > > > > Dave- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > Thanks for the comment - but (forgive me) so what?
>
> > > > > Lance- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > I have only superficial knowledge of the issue, but there seems to be
> > > > a difference of opinion about whether word-colour synesthesia is
> > > > affected by learning.
>
> > > > Dave
>
> > > OK. However the article posted above does provide some fresh evidence
> > > that synaesthesia is responsive to experience. Perhaps you find it
> > > unconvincing?
>
> > > Lance- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > I didn't grasp some of the argument.  In particular,  what is the
> > reasoning here?
>
> > "Interestingly, they found that the particular pairings are determined
> > by how frequently graphemes and the colour terms are used [is used] in
> > language: common letters (e.g., "a") pair with common colour terms
> > (e.g., 'red') and uncommon letters (e.g., 'v') pair with uncommon
> > colour terms (e.g., 'purple').  This shows that perceptual
> > synaesthetic experiences are influenced by environmental learning."- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> There are books of words ordered according to how frequently they are
> used. I think magazines and newspapers are the primary source for
> these lists. Similarly - largely as a result of cryptography research,
> there are lists of how frequently particularly letters occur (letters
> = graphemes). It seems that the colour associations of synaesthetes
> with particular letters are not random, for common (high frequency of
> use) letters are paired with colours that have words that are more
> frequently used. (I know there is research showing that if a language
> distinguishes only one colour taht colour will be red; etc. So the
> frequency with which colour words are used is almost certainly not
> random).
>
> Lance- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

What learning conditions in infancy would result in the hearing of
particular uncommon sounds being paired with the experiencing of
particular uncommon colours?

Gray reports various considerations that count against an associative
learning explanation.  Synaesthesia runs in families, and is mainly
reported by and found in females.  Different colour-word synaesthetes
experience different colours in response to the same sounds,  but the
pairings experienced by a particular individual seem to be invariant
throughout her life.  When synaesthetes are given the appropriate
auditory stimuli their brains show activity in the area of the brain
associated with colour vision (V4).  Attempts to train non-
synaesthetes so that they show similar activity under such conditions
have failed,  and attempts to train word-colour synaesthetes to show
similar activity when the stimuli are melodies have failed.
Furthermore, some word-colour synaesthetes experience 'alien' colours
-- for example, green when they hear the word 'red' -- and it isn't
apparent how this could be learnt from normal environmental
conditions.

(Gray discussed synaesthesia at some length, since he thought it
provided evidence against a functionalist account of consciousness,
and against a 'direct', perceptual realist approach.)

Dave

Dave Smith wrote:
> On 4 May, 11:03, Lance  wrote:
> > On May 2, 10:04 pm, Dave Smith  wrote> > > On 2 May, 15:02, Lance  wrote:
> >
> > > > Dave Smith wrote:
> > > > > On 1 May, 12:08, Lance  wrote:
> > > > > > On May 1, 12:51�am, Dave Smith  wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > On 30 Apr, 10:56, Lance  wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > > New research shows consistency in synaesthetic experiences
> >
> > > > > > > > A quirky psychological phenomenon known as "grapheme-color
> > > > > > > > synaesthesia"
> > > > > > > > describes individuals who experience vivid colors whenever they see,
> > > > > > > > hear, or
> > > > > > > > think of ordinary letters and digits. A hallmark of synaesthesia is
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > individuals seem to be idiosyncratic in their experiences. That is,
> > > > > > > > most
> > > > > > > > synesthaetes will consistently see the same colors accompanied with
> > > > > > > > specific
> > > > > > > > graphemes, but few of these experiences appear to be shared with other
> > > > > > > > synesthetes.
> >
> > > > > > > > But new research appearing in the April issue of Psychological
> > > > > > > > Science, a
> > > > > > > > journal of the Association for Psychological Science, adds to a
> > > > > > > > growing body of
> > > > > > > > evidence suggesting that commonalities do indeed exists across
> > > > > > > > synesthetes. In
> > > > > > > > their own study of 70 synesthetes, and a reanalysis of 19 more in
> > > > > > > > previously
> > > > > > > > published data, psychologists Julia Simner, of the University of
> > > > > > > > Edinburgh and
> > > > > > > > Jamie Ward of the University of Sussex have found that synesthetes
> > > > > > > > share certain
> > > > > > > > grapheme-color combinations (for example, the letter 'a' is frequently
> > > > > > > > associated with seeing the color red).
> >
> > > > > > > > Interestingly, they found that the particular pairings are determined
> > > > > > > > by how
> > > > > > > > frequently graphemes and the colour terms are used is used in
> > > > > > > > language: common
> > > > > > > > letters (e.g., "a") pair with common colour terms (e.g., 'red') and
> > > > > > > > uncommon
> > > > > > > > letters (e.g., 'v') pair with uncommon colour terms (e.g., 'purple').
> > > > > > > > This shows
> > > > > > > > that perceptual synaesthetic experiences are influenced by
> > > > > > > > environmental
> > > > > > > > learning.
> >
> > > > > > > > They then made an interesting discovery about all people. Colleagues
> > > > > > > > had
> > > > > > > > reported that that the frequency of graphemes influenced the> > > > > > > > saturation of the
> > > > > > > > colour, but Simner and Ward discovered the root of this effect: that
> > > > > > > > colors we
> > > > > > > > speak about most often (i.e., those with the highest linguistic
> > > > > > > > frequency) are
> > > > > > > > the least saturated (e.g., black, white).
> >
> > > > > > > > Although these findings may help explain common features of
> > > > > > > > synaesthesia, the
> > > > > > > > precise relationship remains unclear, according to the authors.
> > > > > > > > However, the
> > > > > > > > current study aligns with past research suggesting "that different
> > > > > > > > measures of
> > > > > > > > such associations converge to illustrate a nonarbitrary relationship
> > > > > > > > for all
> > > > > > > > people between color names and color space."
> >
> > > > > > > > Source: Association for Psychological Sciencehttp://www.physorg.com/news128707448.htm
> >
> > > > > > > However, Jeffrey Gray argued (in 'Consciousness: creeping up on the
> > > > > > > hard problem') that "word-colour synesthesia is based upon an
> > > > > > > abnormal, probably genetically determined, projection hard-wired into
> > > > > > > the brain".
> >
> > > > > > > Dave- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > > > > > > - Show quoted text -
> >
> > > > > > Thanks for the comment - but (forgive me) so what?
> >
> > > > > > Lance- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > > > > > - Show quoted text -
> >
> > > > > I have only superficial knowledge of the issue, but there seems to be
> > > > > a difference of opinion about whether word-colour synesthesia is
> > > > > affected by learning.
> >
> > > > > Dave
> >
> > > > OK. However the article posted above does provide some fresh evidence
> > > > that synaesthesia is responsive to experience. Perhaps you find it
> > > > unconvincing?
> >
> > > > Lance- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > > > - Show quoted text -
> >
> > > I didn't grasp some of the argument.  In particular,  what is the
> > > reasoning here?
> >
> > > "Interestingly, they found that the particular pairings are determined> > > by how frequently graphemes and the colour terms are used [is used] in> > > language: common letters (e.g., "a") pair with common colour terms
> > > (e.g., 'red') and uncommon letters (e.g., 'v') pair with uncommon
> > > colour terms (e.g., 'purple').  This shows that perceptual
> > > synaesthetic experiences are influenced by environmental learning."- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > > - Show quoted text -
> >
> > There are books of words ordered according to how frequently they are
> > used. I think magazines and newspapers are the primary source for
> > these lists. Similarly - largely as a result of cryptography research,
> > there are lists of how frequently particularly letters occur (letters
> > = graphemes). It seems that the colour associations of synaesthetes
> > with particular letters are not random, for common (high frequency of
> > use) letters are paired with colours that have words that are more
> > frequently used. (I know there is research showing that if a language
> > distinguishes only one colour taht colour will be red; etc. So the
> > frequency with which colour words are used is almost certainly not
> > random).
> >
> > Lance- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> What learning conditions in infancy would result in the hearing of
> particular uncommon sounds being paired with the experiencing of
> particular uncommon colours?

Just being alive and living in an environment containing a particular
language, I guess.
>
> Gray reports various considerations that count against an associative
> learning explanation.  Synaesthesia runs in families, and is mainly
> reported by and found in females.  Different colour-word synaesthetes
> experience different colours in response to the same sounds,  but the
> pairings experienced by a particular individual seem to be invariant
> throughout her life.  When synaesthetes are given the appropriate
> auditory stimuli their brains show activity in the area of the brain
> associated with colour vision (V4).  Attempts to train non-
> synaesthetes so that they show similar activity under such conditions
> have failed,  and attempts to train word-colour synaesthetes to show
> similar activity when the stimuli are melodies have failed.
> Furthermore, some word-colour synaesthetes experience 'alien' colours
> -- for example, green when they hear the word 'red' -- and it isn't
> apparent how this could be learnt from normal environmental
> conditions.
>

Still, it doesn't seem to be as random as Gray thought.

> (Gray discussed synaesthesia at some length, since he thought it
> provided evidence against a functionalist account of consciousness,
> and against a 'direct', perceptual realist approach.)
>
> Dave

Lance

On 4 May, 23:10, Lance  wrote:
> Dave Smith wrote:
>
> > What learning conditions in infancy would result in the hearing of
> > particular uncommon sounds being paired with the experiencing of
> > particular uncommon colours?
>
> Just being alive and living in an environment containing a particular
> language, I guess.

Sorry, but I still don't understand.  If such learning was occurring,
it seems to me that uncommon sounds as well as common sounds would
tend to pair with common colours. If an 'a' sound paired with red,
might not a 'v' sound subsequently also pair with red --  the one
pairing wouldn't block the other, would it?

> Still, it doesn't seem to be as random as Gray thought.

Not random, just 'hard-wired'.

Dave

On May 5, 12:33 am, Dave Smith  wrote:
> On 4 May, 23:10, Lance  wrote:
>
> > Dave Smith wrote:
>
> > > What learning conditions in infancy would result in the hearing of
> > > particular uncommon sounds being paired with the experiencing of
> > > particular uncommon colours?
>
> > Just being alive and living in an environment containing a particular
> > language, I guess.
>
> Sorry, but I still don't understand.  If such learning was occurring,
> it seems to me that uncommon sounds as well as common sounds would
> tend to pair with common colours. If an 'a' sound paired with red,
> might not a 'v' sound subsequently also pair with red --  the one
> pairing wouldn't block the other, would it?
>
> > Still, it doesn't seem to be as random as Gray thought.
>
> Not random, just 'hard-wired'.
>
> Dave

Hmm. To be 'hard-wired' all languages would have to have the same
ordering for common sounds. But different languages order sounds
differently. The most common letter in English is not the same as the
most common letter in French. Therefore the above research does show
an environmental impact on synaesthesia.

Lance

On 5 May, 12:52, Lance  wrote:
> On May 5, 12:33 am, Dave Smith  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 4 May, 23:10, Lance  wrote:
>
> > > Dave Smith wrote:
>
> > > > What learning conditions in infancy would result in the hearing of
> > > > particular uncommon sounds being paired with the experiencing of
> > > > particular uncommon colours?
>
> > > Just being alive and living in an environment containing a particular
> > > language, I guess.
>
> > Sorry, but I still don't understand.  If such learning was occurring,
> > it seems to me that uncommon sounds as well as common sounds would
> > tend to pair with common colours. If an 'a' sound paired with red,
> > might not a 'v' sound subsequently also pair with red --  the one
> > pairing wouldn't block the other, would it?
>
> > > Still, it doesn't seem to be as random as Gray thought.
>
> > Not random, just 'hard-wired'.
>
> > Dave
>
> Hmm. To be 'hard-wired' all languages would have to have the same
> ordering for common sounds. But different languages order sounds
> differently. The most common letter in English is not the same as the
> most common letter in French. Therefore the above research does show
> an environmental impact on synaesthesia.
>
> Lance- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Obviously, 'hard-wired'  is just a metaphorical expression.  It is
applied to brains rather than languages, to indicate that the
structure in question isn't altered much by normal environmental
variation.  Of course, no two human brains are sructurally identical.
Gray's claim is that "word-colour synaesthesia is most likely due to
an extra, abnormal, left-lateralised projection from cortical language
systems to the colour-selective region (V4) of the visual system".
People (mostly women) with this abnormal projection are presumably
born that way.  The exact pattern of the 'sparking over' that
activates V4 is idiosyncratic. If you are maintaining that the pattern
of sparking over is systematically modified by environmental
conditions,  can you specify how this might occur?

Dave

On May 5, 9:58 pm, Dave Smith  wrote:
> On 5 May, 12:52, Lance  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 5, 12:33 am, Dave Smith  wrote:
>
> > > On 4 May, 23:10, Lance  wrote:
>
> > > > Dave Smith wrote:
>
> > > > > What learning conditions in infancy would result in the hearing of> > > > > particular uncommon sounds being paired with the experiencing of
> > > > > particular uncommon colours?
>
> > > > Just being alive and living in an environment containing a particular
> > > > language, I guess.
>
> > > Sorry, but I still don't understand.  If such learning was occurring> > > it seems to me that uncommon sounds as well as common sounds would
> > > tend to pair with common colours. If an 'a' sound paired with red,
> > > might not a 'v' sound subsequently also pair with red --  the one
> > > pairing wouldn't block the other, would it?
>
> > > > Still, it doesn't seem to be as random as Gray thought.
>
> > > Not random, just 'hard-wired'.
>
> > > Dave
>
> > Hmm. To be 'hard-wired' all languages would have to have the same
> > ordering for common sounds. But different languages order sounds
> > differently. The most common letter in English is not the same as the
> > most common letter in French. Therefore the above research does show
> > an environmental impact on synaesthesia.
>
> > Lance- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Obviously, 'hard-wired'  is just a metaphorical expression.  It is
> applied to brains rather than languages, to indicate that the
> structure in question isn't altered much by normal environmental
> variation.  Of course, no two human brains are sructurally identical.
> Gray's claim is that "word-colour synaesthesia is most likely due to
> an extra, abnormal, left-lateralised projection from cortical language
> systems to the colour-selective region (V4) of the visual system".
> People (mostly women) with this abnormal projection are presumably
> born that way.  The exact pattern of the 'sparking over' that
> activates V4 is idiosyncratic. If you are maintaining that the pattern
> of sparking over is systematically modified by environmental
> conditions,  can you specify how this might occur?
>
> Dave- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I'm not maintaining anything. I was simply posting an interesting
paper. So far your objections to this paper amount to saying the
authors are mistaken about their findings because their findings don't
fit with your prejudices. But perhaps there is more than one way in
which things can work? And no, I'm not going to give you my head for
washing by proposing a neuropsych theory in the short space of a reply
to a newsgroup message.

Cheers

Lance

On 6 May, 08:34, Lance  wrote:
> On May 5, 9:58 pm, Dave Smith  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 5 May, 12:52, Lance  wrote:
>
> > > On May 5, 12:33 am, Dave Smith  wrote:> > > > On 4 May, 23:10, Lance  wrote:
>
> > > > > Dave Smith wrote:
>
> > > > > > What learning conditions in infancy would result in the hearing of
> > > > > > particular uncommon sounds being paired with the experiencing of> > > > > > particular uncommon colours?
>
> > > > > Just being alive and living in an environment containing a particular
> > > > > language, I guess.
>
> > > > Sorry, but I still don't understand.  If such learning was occurring,
> > > > it seems to me that uncommon sounds as well as common sounds would
> > > > tend to pair with common colours. If an 'a' sound paired with red,
> > > > might not a 'v' sound subsequently also pair with red --  the one
> > > > pairing wouldn't block the other, would it?
>
> > > > > Still, it doesn't seem to be as random as Gray thought.
>
> > > > Not random, just 'hard-wired'.
>
> > > > Dave
>
> > > Hmm. To be 'hard-wired' all languages would have to have the same
> > > ordering for common sounds. But different languages order sounds
> > > differently. The most common letter in English is not the same as the
> > > most common letter in French. Therefore the above research does show
> > > an environmental impact on synaesthesia.
>
> > > Lance- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Obviously, 'hard-wired'  is just a metaphorical expression.  It is
> > applied to brains rather than languages, to indicate that the
> > structure in question isn't altered much by normal environmental
> > variation.  Of course, no two human brains are sructurally identical.
> > Gray's claim is that "word-colour synaesthesia is most likely due to
> > an extra, abnormal, left-lateralised projection from cortical language
> > systems to the colour-selective region (V4) of the visual system".
> > People (mostly women) with this abnormal projection are presumably
> > born that way.  The exact pattern of the 'sparking over' that
> > activates V4 is idiosyncratic. If you are maintaining that the pattern
> > of sparking over is systematically modified by environmental
> > conditions,  can you specify how this might occur?
>
> > Dave- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I'm not maintaining anything. I was simply posting an interesting
> paper. So far your objections to this paper amount to saying the
> authors are mistaken about their findings because their findings don't
> fit with your prejudices. But perhaps there is more than one way in
> which things can work? And no, I'm not going to give you my head for
> washing by proposing a neuropsych theory in the short space of a reply
> to a newsgroup message.
>
> Cheers
>
> Lance- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I haven't criticised the paper.  I haven't got access to it and have
only read the abstract which you posted.  If you look back over my
comments, you will see I was hoping you would explain more precisely
what the authors claimed and how their findings and conclusions bear
on Gray's account.

Dave

Dave Smith wrote:
> I haven't criticised the paper.  I haven't got access to it and have
> only read the abstract which you posted.  If you look back over my
> comments, you will see I was hoping you would explain more precisely
> what the authors claimed and how their findings and conclusions bear
> on Gray's account.
>
> Dave

Sorry, I have also only read the abstract. Too much to do, too little
time.

I thought it sounded interesting.

Lance

On 7 May, 21:24, Lance  wrote:
> Dave Smith wrote:
> > I haven't criticised the paper.  I haven't got access to it and have
> > only read the abstract which you posted.  If you look back over my
> > comments, you will see I was hoping you would explain more precisely
> > what the authors claimed and how their findings and conclusions bear
> > on Gray's account.
>
> > Dave
>
> Sorry, I have also only read the abstract. Too much to do, too little
> time.
>
> I thought it sounded interesting.
>
> Lance

I've glimpsed at a few papers etc that are available on the net and
synaesthesia appears to be a more complex phenomenon than Gray's
account suggested.

Dave