I was interested, in the light of Peter Ashby's comments about the
child unfriendly nature of the UK, in the debate about a British
invention intended to repell, or perhaps expell, teenagers from areas
which adults would rather have teenage free.

see


http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080402/wl_uk_afp/britaineutechnologyyouth


http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Edmonton/2008/04/24/pf-5379181.html


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,352410,00.html


and many others


Lance

On Apr 25, 10:15 am, Lance  wrote:
> I was interested, in the light of Peter Ashby's comments about the
> child unfriendly nature of the UK, in the debate about a British
> invention intended to repell, or perhaps expell, teenagers from areas
> which adults would rather have teenage free.
>
> see
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080402/wl_uk_afp/britaineutechnologyyouth
>
What a marvelous idea! It isn't clear where you can purchase one. I
think it is likely to work. I downloaded 17kHz ring tone, and I can't
hear a thing:

http://www.jetcityorange.com/mosquito-ringtone/mosquito-ringtone-MP3.html

On 25 Apr, 14:18, Peter Brooks  wrote:
> On Apr 25, 10:15 am, Lance  wrote:> I was interested, in the light of Peter Ashby's comments about the
> > child unfriendly nature of the UK, in the debate about a British
> > invention intended to repell, or perhaps expell, teenagers from areas
> > which adults would rather have teenage free.
>
> > see
>
> >http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080402/wl_uk_afp/britaineutechnologyyouth
>
> What a marvelous idea! It isn't clear where you can purchase one. I
> think it is likely to work. I downloaded 17kHz ring tone, and I can't
> hear a thing:
>
> http://www.jetcityorange.com/mosquito-ringtone/mosquito-ringtone-MP3....


I think this was in the news a while ago.  Apparently another method
to dispel unwanted teenagers is to play classical music.

Dave

"Dave Smith"  wrote in message 
news:5107cd4d-bbdb-4658-93db-489e4d850856@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
On 25 Apr, 14:18, Peter Brooks  wrote:
> On Apr 25, 10:15 am, Lance  wrote:> I was interested, 
> in the light of Peter Ashby's comments about the
> > child unfriendly nature of the UK, in the debate about a British
> > invention intended to repell, or perhaps expell, teenagers from areas
> > which adults would rather have teenage free.
>
> > see
>
> >http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080402/wl_uk_afp/britaineutechnologyyouth
>
> What a marvelous idea! It isn't clear where you can purchase one. I
> think it is likely to work. I downloaded 17kHz ring tone, and I can't
> hear a thing:
>
> http://www.jetcityorange.com/mosquito-ringtone/mosquito-ringtone-MP3....


I think this was in the news a while ago.  Apparently another method
to dispel unwanted teenagers is to play classical music.

-----------------------------------------------------------

The trouble is, they inevitably play Pachelbel's Canon and that drives me 
away too!!!
Graham (presently listening to Mozart's "Dissonance" Quartet)

On Apr 25, 3:18 pm, Peter Brooks  wrote:
> On Apr 25, 10:15 am, Lance  wrote:> I was interested, in the light of Peter Ashby's comments about the
> > child unfriendly nature of the UK, in the debate about a British
> > invention intended to repell, or perhaps expell, teenagers from areas
> > which adults would rather have teenage free.
>
> > see
>
> >http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080402/wl_uk_afp/britaineutechnologyyouth
>
> What a marvelous idea! It isn't clear where you can purchase one. I
> think it is likely to work. I downloaded 17kHz ring tone, and I can't
> hear a thing:
>
> http://www.jetcityorange.com/mosquito-ringtone/mosquito-ringtone-MP3....


Do you think it is ok to inflict this kind of pain on someone just
because you don't like him or her?

Lance

On Apr 25, 7:02 pm, Dave Smith  wrote:
> On 25 Apr, 14:18, Peter Brooks  wrote:
>
> > On Apr 25, 10:15 am, Lance  wrote:> I was interested, in the light of Peter Ashby's comments about the
> > > child unfriendly nature of the UK, in the debate about a British
> > > invention intended to repell, or perhaps expell, teenagers from areas
> > > which adults would rather have teenage free.
>
> > > see
>
> > >http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080402/wl_uk_afp/britaineutechnologyyouth> > What a marvelous idea! It isn't clear where you can purchase one. I
> > think it is likely to work. I downloaded 17kHz ring tone, and I can't
> > hear a thing:
>
> >http://www.jetcityorange.com/mosquito-ringtone/mosquito-ringtone-MP3....
>
> I think this was in the news a while ago.  Apparently another method
> to dispel unwanted teenagers is to play classical music.
>

Are there places where teenagers can go, or this is this just another
manifestation of how unfriendly the UK has become to children?

Lance

On 28 Apr, 12:13, Lance  wrote:
> On Apr 25, 7:02 pm, Dave Smith  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 25 Apr, 14:18, Peter Brooks  wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 25, 10:15 am, Lance  wrote:> I was interested, in the light of Peter Ashby's comments about the
> > > > child unfriendly nature of the UK, in the debate about a British
> > > > invention intended to repell, or perhaps expell, teenagers from areas
> > > > which adults would rather have teenage free.
>
> > > > see
>
> > > >http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080402/wl_uk_afp/britaineutechnologyyouth
>
> > > What a marvelous idea! It isn't clear where you can purchase one. I
> > > think it is likely to work. I downloaded 17kHz ring tone, and I can't
> > > hear a thing:
>
> > >http://www.jetcityorange.com/mosquito-ringtone/mosquito-ringtone-MP3...> > I think this was in the news a while ago.  Apparently another method
> > to dispel unwanted teenagers is to play classical music.
>
> Are there places where teenagers can go, or this is this just another
> manifestation of how unfriendly the UK has become to children?
>
> Lance- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

There's no easy solution. Some teenagers don't want to stay in their
homes and don't want to participate in activities organised by
adults.  They stand around in groups in bus shelters etc.,  maybe
drinking alcohol or taking drugs,  dropping litter  and 'messing
around'.  Where I live, such behaviour is a nuisance.  In cities,  it
can be intimidating.

Dave

On Apr 28, 9:21 pm, Dave Smith  wrote:
> On 28 Apr, 12:13, Lance  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 25, 7:02 pm, Dave Smith  wrote:
>
> > > On 25 Apr, 14:18, Peter Brooks  wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 25, 10:15 am, Lance  wrote:> I was interested, in the light of Peter Ashby's comments about the
> > > > > child unfriendly nature of the UK, in the debate about a British
> > > > > invention intended to repell, or perhaps expell, teenagers from areas
> > > > > which adults would rather have teenage free.
>
> > > > > see
>
> > > > >http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080402/wl_uk_afp/britaineutechnologyyouth
>
> > > > What a marvelous idea! It isn't clear where you can purchase one. I
> > > > think it is likely to work. I downloaded 17kHz ring tone, and I can't
> > > > hear a thing:
>
> > > >http://www.jetcityorange.com/mosquito-ringtone/mosquito-ringtone-MP3.> > > I think this was in the news a while ago.  Apparently another method> > > to dispel unwanted teenagers is to play classical music.
>
> > Are there places where teenagers can go, or this is this just another
> > manifestation of how unfriendly the UK has become to children?
>
> > Lance- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> There's no easy solution. Some teenagers don't want to stay in their
> homes and don't want to participate in activities organised by
> adults.  They stand around in groups in bus shelters etc.,  maybe
> drinking alcohol or taking drugs,  dropping litter  and 'messing
> around'.  Where I live, such behaviour is a nuisance.  In cities,  it
> can be intimidating.
>
> Dave- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I can only think of trite responses such as, It is important to find
ways of integrating teenagers into the community if you want to reduce
crime and have better prospects in the future.

Lance

Dave Smith  wrote:
: There's no easy solution. Some teenagers don't want to stay in their
: homes and don't want to participate in activities organised by
: adults.

No, they'd rather *be* adults. If they were allowed in pubs for a drink,
that's what they'd be doing. Since they arent, they drink in bus
shelters. This isnt condoning it, it's just explaining it.

: They stand around in groups in bus shelters etc.,  maybe
: drinking alcohol or taking drugs,  dropping litter  and 'messing
: around'.  Where I live, such behaviour is a nuisance.  In cities,  it
: can be intimidating.

I think we need to invent some kind of teenage venue that can be their
equivalent of the pub/bar/cafe/whatever. A modern kind of youth club that
appeals to them.

Mark

--

On 29 Apr, 18:14, Mark.Wri...@bristol.ac.uk wrote:
> Dave Smith  wrote:
>
> : There's no easy solution. Some teenagers don't want to stay in their
> : homes and don't want to participate in activities organised by
> : adults.
>
> No, they'd rather *be* adults. If they were allowed in pubs for a drink,
> that's what they'd be doing. Since they arent, they drink in bus
> shelters. This isnt condoning it, it's just explaining it.
>
> : They stand around in groups in bus shelters etc.,  maybe
> : drinking alcohol or taking drugs,  dropping litter  and 'messing
> : around'.  Where I live, such behaviour is a nuisance.  In cities,  it
> : can be intimidating.
>
> I think we need to invent some kind of teenage venue that can be their
> equivalent of the pub/bar/cafe/whatever. A modern kind of youth club that
> appeals to them.
>
> Mark
>
> --

Yes, but any kind of adult control tends to be resented.

Dave

On 29 Apr, 10:27, Lance  wrote:
> On Apr 28, 9:21 pm, Dave Smith  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 28 Apr, 12:13, Lance  wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 25, 7:02 pm, Dave Smith  wrote:> > > > On 25 Apr, 14:18, Peter Brooks  wrote:
>
> > > > > On Apr 25, 10:15 am, Lance  wrote:> I was interested, in the light of Peter Ashby's comments about the
> > > > > > child unfriendly nature of the UK, in the debate about a British> > > > > > invention intended to repell, or perhaps expell, teenagers from areas
> > > > > > which adults would rather have teenage free.
>
> > > > > > see
>
> > > > > >http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080402/wl_uk_afp/britaineutechnologyyouth
>
> > > > > What a marvelous idea! It isn't clear where you can purchase one. I
> > > > > think it is likely to work. I downloaded 17kHz ring tone, and I can't
> > > > > hear a thing:
>
> > > > >http://www.jetcityorange.com/mosquito-ringtone/mosquito-ringtone-MP3....
>
> > > > I think this was in the news a while ago.  Apparently another method
> > > > to dispel unwanted teenagers is to play classical music.
>
> > > Are there places where teenagers can go, or this is this just another
> > > manifestation of how unfriendly the UK has become to children?
>
> > > Lance- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > There's no easy solution. Some teenagers don't want to stay in their
> > homes and don't want to participate in activities organised by
> > adults.  They stand around in groups in bus shelters etc.,  maybe
> > drinking alcohol or taking drugs,  dropping litter  and 'messing
> > around'.  Where I live, such behaviour is a nuisance.  In cities,  it
> > can be intimidating.
>
> > Dave- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I can only think of trite responses such as, It is important to find
> ways of integrating teenagers into the community if you want to reduce
> crime and have better prospects in the future.
>
> Lance- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I agree.  But the whole structure of society needs to change --
families, education and employment.  :>)

Dave

On Apr 29, 7:14 pm, Mark.Wri...@bristol.ac.uk wrote:
> Dave Smith  wrote:
>
> : There's no easy solution. Some teenagers don't want to stay in their
> : homes and don't want to participate in activities organised by
> : adults.
>
> No, they'd rather *be* adults. If they were allowed in pubs for a drink,
> that's what they'd be doing. Since they arent, they drink in bus
> shelters. This isnt condoning it, it's just explaining it.
>
> : They stand around in groups in bus shelters etc.,  maybe
> : drinking alcohol or taking drugs,  dropping litter  and 'messing
> : around'.  Where I live, such behaviour is a nuisance.  In cities,  it
> : can be intimidating.
>
> I think we need to invent some kind of teenage venue that can be their
> equivalent of the pub/bar/cafe/whatever. A modern kind of youth club that
> appeals to them.
>
> Mark
>
> --

There is good research to show that crime IS strongly associated with
teenagers, and the more Westernized the country, the more strongly
crime becomes associated with teenagers.

One reason for this, offered by Terrie Moffitt, is that teenagers are
biologically programmed to want to be adult but we live in societies
where they are cribbed, cabined and confined by schooling requirements
and legal barriers. She suggests that when they look round they will
see some individuals with the apparent symbols and material goods and
activities that go with being adult - those who smoke, drink, have
sex, have money, have vehicles, etc. Often these things were obtained
through crime, and so the individuals who break the law and behave
badly are, for the first time in their lives, imitated. Thus
delinquency spreads through adolsecence. But as time goes by,
teenagers will begin to correctly perceive that such activities are
traps and will put them aside. The vasy majority of teenagers will in
fact become good citizens. Some of course will indeed be trapped by
their delinquent activities and will have no way out.

If Moffitt is right then then it is not merely recreation that should
be offered to teenagers but responsibilty. They need to feel that they
are becoming adult and are being taken seriously as adults. Maybe
teenagers should have part time jobs, they should be required to be
partially responsible for their own upkeep, they should be required to
learn and meet adult standards in a number of relevant symbol systems
(music, accounting etc) so that they won't feel compelled to imitate
those who find an easy route to claiming adult status. Then their
recreation will not be that of the disaffected, but that of the weary
and committed to society.

Anyway, just thinking aloud.

Lance

On Apr 30, 1:48 pm, Lance  wrote:
> On Apr 29, 7:14 pm, Mark.Wri...@bristol.ac.uk wrote:
>
>
>
> > Dave Smith  wrote:
>
> > : There's no easy solution. Some teenagers don't want to stay in their
> > : homes and don't want to participate in activities organised by
> > : adults.
>
> > No, they'd rather *be* adults. If they were allowed in pubs for a drink,> > that's what they'd be doing. Since they arent, they drink in bus
> > shelters. This isnt condoning it, it's just explaining it.
>
> > : They stand around in groups in bus shelters etc.,  maybe
> > : drinking alcohol or taking drugs,  dropping litter  and 'messing
> > : around'.  Where I live, such behaviour is a nuisance.  In cities,  it
> > : can be intimidating.
>
> > I think we need to invent some kind of teenage venue that can be their
> > equivalent of the pub/bar/cafe/whatever. A modern kind of youth club that
> > appeals to them.
>
> > Mark
>
> > --
>
> There is good research to show that crime IS strongly associated with
> teenagers, and the more Westernized the country, the more strongly
> crime becomes associated with teenagers.
>
> One reason for this, offered by Terrie Moffitt, is that teenagers are
> biologically programmed to want to be adult but we live in societies
> where they are cribbed, cabined and confined by schooling requirements
> and legal barriers. She suggests that when they look round they will
> see some individuals with the apparent symbols and material goods and
> activities that go with being adult - those who smoke, drink, have
> sex, have money, have vehicles, etc. Often these things were obtained
> through crime, and so the individuals who break the law and behave
> badly are, for the first time in their lives, imitated. Thus
> delinquency spreads through adolsecence. But as time goes by,
> teenagers will begin to correctly perceive that such activities are
> traps and will put them aside. The vasy majority of teenagers will in
> fact become good citizens. Some of course will indeed be trapped by
> their delinquent activities and will have no way out.
>
> If Moffitt is right then then it is not merely recreation that should
> be offered to teenagers but responsibilty. They need to feel that they
> are becoming adult and are being taken seriously as adults. Maybe
> teenagers should have part time jobs, they should be required to be
> partially responsible for their own upkeep, they should be required to
> learn and meet adult standards in a number of relevant symbol systems
> (music, accounting etc) so that they won't feel compelled to imitate
> those who find an easy route to claiming adult status. Then their
> recreation will not be that of the disaffected, but that of the weary
> and committed to society.
>
> Anyway, just thinking aloud.
>
I agree completely. In the UK this accords with the facts of recent
history. New 'error of judgement' Labour has been trying to get all
adolescents to go to 'university' (often, of course, nothing of the
kind, rather a re-labelled polytechnic that teaches non-subjects).
This has led to a drop in the number of children getting responsible
jobs in their early teens and, as the paper you quote remarks, the
opportunity to be adult. The UK, as a large social experiment in
treating adolescents this way, seems to confirm Moffitt.

Of course the creation of the 'benefit culture' where, for many
children, there are no adult role models in gainful employment has
also contributed greatly to this criminalisation.

Lance  wrote:
: If Moffitt is right then then it is not merely recreation that should
: be offered to teenagers but responsibilty. They need to feel that they
: are becoming adult and are being taken seriously as adults. Maybe
: teenagers should have part time jobs, they should be required to be
: partially responsible for their own upkeep, they should be required to
: learn and meet adult standards in a number of relevant symbol systems
: (music, accounting etc) so that they won't feel compelled to imitate
: those who find an easy route to claiming adult status. Then their
: recreation will not be that of the disaffected, but that of the weary
: and committed to society.

: Anyway, just thinking aloud.

I think what you suggest makes a lot of sense indeed. We seem to be on the
one hand trying to make adult life ever free-er and more expansive (with
mixed success, but it may appear that way even if we fail), while on the
other hand making childhood ever more restrictive and *longer*. So the
envy of teenagers for adult life becomes that much greater.
Mark

--