Here is a link to information about the film, which is only 16 
minutes, but very disturbing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitna_(film)

Interestingly, following the film's official website link on 
Wikipedia appears to show that it has been taken down!

I've found the film here:

http://tinyurl.com/2knwku

The film is shocking and, please note Dave - this is a really good 
example of why absolute religious morals are a very, very bad idea 
and why a secular society is a very, very good idea.

regards, Ian

In article <1Omdneohepi2aezVnZ2dnUVZ8sjinZ2d@posted.plusnet>,
 Ian Smith  wrote:

> Here is a link to information about the film, which is only 16 
> minutes, but very disturbing.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitna_(film)
> 
> Interestingly, following the film's official website link on 
> Wikipedia appears to show that it has been taken down!

Your URL has been truncated. The correct URL is:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitna_(film)>

I found the video highly tendentious, above all scaremongering and 
selective in its quoting from the news and the Holy Qur'an. Geerts is 
regarded in many quarters as a pro-Israel activist and anti-Muslim 
bigot. Personally, I would hesitate to be seen approving of his stuff.

It would be very easy for someone like Karen Armstrong to make anj 
equally tendentious video showing Islam as a religion of peace and 
tolerance. A balanced presentation would of course show that there is 
some truth on both sides, but neither has the whole truth.

Alwyn

X-No-Archive: yes

"Alwyn"  wrote in message 
news:alwyn-DEFBDF.12130607072008@news.virginmedia.com...
> In article <1Omdneohepi2aezVnZ2dnUVZ8sjinZ2d@posted.plusnet>,
> Ian Smith  wrote:
>
>> Here is a link to information about the film, which is only 16
>> minutes, but very disturbing.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitna_(film)
>>
>> Interestingly, following the film's official website link on
>> Wikipedia appears to show that it has been taken down!
>
> Your URL has been truncated. The correct URL is:
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitna_(film)>
>
> I found the video highly tendentious, above all scaremongering and
> selective in its quoting from the news and the Holy Qur'an. Geerts is
> regarded in many quarters as a pro-Israel activist and anti-Muslim
> bigot. Personally, I would hesitate to be seen approving of his stuff.


Hmm.  You mean the Dutch People's Union (NVU) the Dutch neo nazis....?
The extreme right wing organisation that attacks wilders as being a 
"neo-conservative"...!!
They certainly 'emphasise' wilders as being a "friend of Israel" - do you 
have anything further on the "activist"  accusation..?
Then, I suppose, having set up the *pro Israel* accusation it's a short hop 
into anti-muslim.
However, anti islam he certainly is - though he says he is not anti muslim..
This is long and you may not wish to read it through but it does show his 
philosophy and political positioning (this was January 31st, 2005) having 
jumped ship from liberalism into conservatism around this time.  There are 
many dutch who consider him to be a very moderate conservative at that....


*******************************

""Ladies and Gentleman,

I would like to thank you, for letting me speak here. This is my first 
speech in The Netherlands since the murder of Theo van Gogh. I consider it 
an honor to make my comeback here in Rotterdam together with you.

I want to use tonight's speech here, to tell you about my plans for my 
political movement and most of all, my plans for this nation. The coming 
months I will go public with more ideas and gradual transform from an 
independent representative to a large public movement.

I will not speak lengthy and at the end you can ask questions. I'm curious 
to hear from you what your ideas are about the future of The Netherlands and 
how we all can make sure we leave a better Netherlands for our children.

It has not been an easy time since I left the Liberal party (VVD).

Of course I already was a maverick liberal. Last year I published together 
with my former colleague Oplaat my ten-point plan. The essence of that plan 
was that the liberal party (VVD) was to left wing. Leading liberals even 
want to unite with social-liberals (D66) and socialists (PvdA). Now I left 
the liberal party (VVD), this seems a good idea to me. The liberal party 
(VVD) is a very purple party [*1]. All major parties in parliament are one 
of a kind. Let them all merge together.

In the 90's we thought we where on holiday from History. As if we where 
done. But September 11th acted for many as a wake up call. Long before 2001, 
I had already warned against the radical Islam, but the government ignored 
all warnings.

The Netherlands slept quietly further. The elite refused to see the dangers 
that threatened us. Also the murder of Theo van Gogh did not bring the moral 
clarity we need at this moment. Our elite keeps on speaking non-sense about 
how we should start the dialog. Drinking tea as a remedy against terror. It's 
nice that TV-shows like 'around ten' (Rond om tien) are full with reasonable 
and good educated immigrants, reality is, that 90% of the Moroccan people in 
The Netherlands only watch Moroccan TV channels. The gospel of the dialog 
does not reach them.

Now is the moment to act. It will soon be spring, time for spring-cleaning. 
I do not make a difference between terror against the state and terror on 
the streets. Who on the street (lijnbaan) prevents that medical rescue 
service workers can do their work [More info: here], should just be 
arrested. Is such a person a holder of a foreign passport, makes it easier. 
Because this person can be send quickly out of the country. Every week 
airplanes arrive at Schiphol airport coming from Turkey and Morocco with new 
immigrants with no perspectives. It would be good if the return flights also 
had some passengers.

Terrorism is not something you solve with a orange bracelet [*2] or a 
binding day [*3]. We should give all we have to protect our families.

The government comes with new paper plans, but in the mean time they do 
practically nothing. There is not a single radical mosque closed, not a 
single radical imam evicted from the country and not even one of the hundred 
and fifty terrorists under surveillance by the intelligence service is 
caught. With intentions and laws only, you will not solve the problem of the 
radical Islam. What this country needs, are politicians with guts that dare 
to stick their neck out and act when needed. Regarding the war on terror the 
gentleman [justice minister] Donner, [Domestic affairs minister] Remkes and 
[prime minister] Balkenende, bark but don't bite.

Last week the trial against Mohammed B. [murderer of Theo van Gogh] started. 
A letter written by him illustrates what kind of emergency we are in. B. 
hoped that it would not take much longer "before the knights of Allah will 
march into the Binnenhof [parliament] and in the middle of the square will 
rise the flag of the Tawheed. The parliament will be renamed Sharia-court 
and the chairman's hammer will confirm the Islamic judgments. Out of the 
tower of Kok [room of prime minister] will sound the praises for Allah.

I often hear a lot of nonsense coming from that tower, but I must say: 
rather Balkenende than Allah.

My stand on Islam and integration [of immigrants in Dutch society] is well 
known. Today I also want to talk with you about the economy and Europe. Two 
important subjects for the time to come.

It's time for a fresh start for the Netherlands. The re-birth has not only 
to do with the current war that is going on, but also with the economy. The 
Netherlands is not doing well. We are satisfied. We have fallen a sleep. 
There is a slump. We are satisfied with a growth figure between 1% and 1.5%. 
Our competitive position has eroded. The welfare state becomes too expensive 
and the pensions are under pressure. Meanwhile China is ready to take over.

This is thus the time to focus more on business. The Netherlands should come 
in motion again. The Netherlands should get up to speed. What should happen 
is that our businesses get opportunities to grow. Now the government 
consumes more than half of our gross national product. Joe average must pay 
from his salary to many civil servants, to much red tape and squander. And 
his boss looses even more on useless rules and taxes.

I like to quote Thatcher: "it's not governments that create jobs, businesses 
do"

If businesses and people are allowed to keep more money for them selves, 
then there stays more money to spend and invest. That will create jobs. Thus 
the government should be smaller, much smaller. And taxes should be lower, 
much lower. That means less civil servants, less money to the European 
technocrats and less to development aid.

Between the year 2000 and 2003 the number of civil servants of the local 
governments grew with nearly 30.000 to a total of 250.000 [on a population 
of 16 million], and that in a time when jobs at businesses shrink with 1%. 
We can do without the company of tens of thousands of these civil servants.

With them a third of all our working people in The Netherlands work as a 
civil servant, that means: nearly not economically productive.
And their salaries don't get lower, on the contrary. In 2003 the top 
municipality officials saw their salary rise with 16.2 %. Note, this was in 
just one year.

Also the welfare state keeps getting more expensive. The Netherlands: as 
land of plenty. The growth of the WAO [disability benefits] has stopped, but 
a real decay is still not there. Good social benefits are important, 
especially if it involves a decent AOW [old age benefits], but a million 
disabled means there is large scale misuse. When I recently visited the U.S. 
and told business people that we had 1 million disabled people and that 1 
out for 4 people with an age between 15 and 65 is inactive, they asked me if 
an epidemic had struck our country.

An expanding government is hanging as a drunken man on the neck of our hard 
working citizens. Growing numbers of bureaucrats, produce a growing number 
of rules that together cost us more and more. That has to stop. I want to 
take a stand to change this and choose. Choose for more room for businesses 
and people in this country and choose for a small government that redraws 
from unnecessary tasks and concentrates on its main objectives: safety, 
education and infrastructure. That means choosing to build roads and not to 
accept the mileage tax. I was just like you shocked when I heard that my 
colleague Hofstra of the liberal party (VVD) co-signed a proposal of the 
socialists (PvdA) that asked the government to implement the mileage tax 
soon.

Main objective of the Group Wilders the coming months is the battle of the 
referendum. U might know it: in June you may vote before or against the 
European constitution.

In a way it is good that you finally get an opportunity to voice your 
opinion directly. The Dutch population is never asked something about the 
European 'fusion'. That 'fusion' is presented by the political parties 
elites (CDA, PvdA, VVD, in front) as a natural phenomenon. According to 
these vested parties, the European 'fusion' is an 'inevitable' fact, a train 
that left the station and can't be stopped anymore. Every European treaty is 
without worthwhile discussion approved, no European proposal goes our 
leaders to far.

As a representative I judge all proposals on their merits. If something is 
in the interest of the Netherlands we should do it, but if it is not, we 
shouldn't do it. That's the way a representative should act: Always in the 
Dutch national interest. Objective and well considered. Not join none-sense 
because Brussel [EU headquarter] wants it so badly.

Was the abolishment of the Guilder [Dutch Currency] in the Dutch interest? 
The price rises caused by the euro? Denhaag gives our monetary and fiscal 
policies away to anonymous bureaucrats in Frankfurt. Is that really smart? 
France and Italy break the stability pact, the Greeks and Italians haggled 
when joining and the German chancellor Schroeder what's to stretch the 
criteria even further.

Is it in our national interest to have a joined European refugee policy? Not 
being allowed to guard our borders? Is it in our national interest to be one 
of EU largest net contributors?

Is it in our national interest to admit more new, poor countries like 
Bulgaria and Romania to the union? Strangely these questions are never 
debated in Den Haag [Dutch parliament]. And now the political elite wants to 
admin Turkey to the union, a Islamic land of millions, that will have an 
enormous influence on the federal super state. Because of the new European 
constitution, Turkey will have more influence on Dutch legislation than The 
Netherlands it self. It can't become crazier than this.

A considerable amount of our legislation is already coming from Brussel, 
most Dutch civil servants carry out European law. European laws and rules 
now consist of 100.000 pages. Each year that grows with a few thousand new 
rules. Europe is out of control. Europe is not owned by its citizens but 
owned by the bureaucrats in Brussel.

The European constitution abolishes the primary principle of sovereign and 
political independent democratic member states. Both legally as politically 
The Netherlands will become a province in the European super state. And do 
you know what socialist (PvdA) spokes person Witteveen, a big supporter of 
the European constitution, said in the senate during the debate over the EU 
referendum? He said: "The development of the EU go with little steps, often 
over obscure dark winding paths, but has now reached the point of no return: 
Dutch citizens no longer live in a sovereign nation state, the independent 
kingdom of The Netherlands .". I could not have said it better than this 
socialist did. But in contrast to the PvdA, the CDA and the VVD, I will not 
accept this sell out.

If the new European constitution is accepted, more often decisions will be 
made by majority rule. The Netherlands looses its veto. We will lose as many 
as 63 veto rights. Countries with more citizens will get more influence. A 
country like Turkey with it's enormous population will have more influence 
then the small Netherlands. Now there live 68 million people in Turkey. In 
2020 there will be 83 million.

Thus the difference gets bigger and with that, Dutch influence gets smaller. 
Thus, the more Turks there come, the less we have to say about our own 
country. I hope you will go to the ballot and vote against the European 
constitution. This way you contribute to make The Netherlands independent 
again. The elite in Brussel will be disappointed next June.

The Groep Wilders will transform the coming year to a broad movement. In 
these times of slum, I come with a message of hope and optimism. I think The 
Netherlands can do better. I think our best days are still ahead. I think 
there is no reason for pessimism, simple because we have confronted bigger 
problems in the past. Look around you, and see what the Dutch together have 
buildup. These same Dutch should be afraid for the challenges ahead? I don't 
think so.

Maybe you have heart that Groep Wilders is an one issue movement, a club 
that has only one topic.

They are right.

Our issue is freedom. I put freedom central. The freedom that your mother 
can go out in the evenings, the freedom that your grant children are not 
forced to wear a head scarf, the freedom that you can spend your income on 
your family, the freedom to say what you want, the freedom you have because 
your government protects your family against terrorists, the freedom to have 
a job and a pleasant live, the freedom as a country to decide for our selves 
independently.

Since today we can add an other freedom to this list: the freedom as a Dutch 
to wear the Dutch flag. For example on your school bag, as the boys in 
IJselstijn wanted but where not allowed by their school direction, because 
it would provoke Moroccan students [See also: Dutch Flag prohibited]

Freedom is the central idea. Now organizing it.

In the months after I left the liberal party (VVD), I received tens of 
thousands of mails. A large part of the messages had a clear message: Geert 
please continue, but please not a second Lijst Pim Fortuyn (LPF). [*4].

I have taken this at hearth.

To start with, we make full use of the element of time. Professor Fortuyn 
had only a few weeks to organize. That did not work out. We let our self 
advise and assist by professionals. That must result in a faction that is 
unanimous. Solid people who together form a cohesive team.

Our administration is in professional hands, to make sure there is never any 
doubt about the financial management.

Our organization slowly emerges, with all cost involved. Later we also need 
extra money for a national election campaign. The existing political parties 
have doubled their government grants from 7 million in 2001 to 15 million 
euro in 2004. This way the taxpayer has to pay for commercials the Dutch 
elite parties make for them selves.

My new party has not yet run in parliamentary elections and that is why it 
not eligible to claim government grants. That means that I have to organize 
my finances my self.

But that is not something we are unhappy about. We are not a party that 
lives of the taxpayer's money, needlessly parasite ting on the public 
treasury. We are a citizen's movement: free people who make their own 
choices and who are not on addicted to government money.

My call for donation I made last year, resulted in many reactions. Often 
these are small amounts of individuals. Sometimes someone sends a small 
message with it. For example a woman who says that she can not give more 
than 10 euro. But she add's "Mister Wilders, you have to know that you can 
always come into hiding at my home". Reactions like these get me through 
these cold times.

Al small donations are welcome. Because they show that this is a citizens 
movement.

I have enormous energy to create something great. I hope, together with you.


Ladies and gentleman, thank you for your attention."



*************************************************

Whilst I might not like his politics, I am slowly developing the notion that 
islamification IS happening not only in Eurpoe but here, in the UK and am 
developing more militant attitudes towards this seemingly, creeping stain.



> It would be very easy for someone like Karen Armstrong to make anj
> equally tendentious video showing Islam as a religion of peace and
> tolerance. A balanced presentation would of course show that there is
> some truth on both sides, but neither has the whole truth.

What is clear,  balance or not, is that fundamental religious followers - 
under the umbrella of whatever brand of religion - are capable of 
mindlessness, almost  beyond human comprehension.
Focussing on such fundamental behaviour - which, by the way,  happens to be 
a true representation of that fundamental behaviour - might unnerve certain 
people, none more so than the people concerned (...and from which and where 
we can witness the response - murder and threats of murder amongst other 
things).
Is fundamentalism representative of the religion in general.....well 
probably not...in the same way that the dilv fundamental dogma is not 
representative of christianity in general but is fundamentalism true, does 
it exist, can we see it, can we make subjective moral comment, is it 
'evil'..............
You know what,  I think it's all those things and more...... and it 
(fundamentalism) is becoming ever more dangerous in ways we have yet to 
understand..


Mark

In article ,
 "mark"  wrote:
> "Alwyn"  wrote in message 
> news:alwyn-DEFBDF.12130607072008@news.virginmedia.com...
> >
> > I found the video highly tendentious, above all scaremongering and
> > selective in its quoting from the news and the Holy Qur'an. Geerts is
> > regarded in many quarters as a pro-Israel activist and anti-Muslim
> > bigot. Personally, I would hesitate to be seen approving of his stuff.
> 
> Hmm.  You mean the Dutch People's Union (NVU) the Dutch neo nazis....?
> The extreme right wing organisation that attacks wilders as being a 
> "neo-conservative"...!!

Wikipedia isn't always reliable, but I the following is well sourced:

'Wilders has, in the eight years he has served in the Dutch Parliament, 
always supported Israel and attacked countries he perceives as enemies 
of Israel.[16]
'Furthermore, Wilders has made some proposals in the Dutch Parliament 
inspired by Israel. For example, in 2005 Wilders proposed implementing 
Israel's administrative detention in the Netherlands, a practice heavily 
criticized by human rights group Amnesty International. Also, at the 
time Wilders was member of the People's Party for Freedom and Democracy, 
he had an employee who directly came from the Israeli Embassy. [16]'
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geert_Wilders#Israel>

Alwyn

Alwyn wrote:
> In article ,
>  "mark"  wrote:
>> "Alwyn"  wrote in message 
>> news:alwyn-DEFBDF.12130607072008@news.virginmedia.com...
>>> I found the video highly tendentious, above all scaremongering and
>>> selective in its quoting from the news and the Holy Qur'an. Geerts is
>>> regarded in many quarters as a pro-Israel activist and anti-Muslim
>>> bigot. Personally, I would hesitate to be seen approving of his stuff.
>> Hmm.  You mean the Dutch People's Union (NVU) the Dutch neo nazis....?
>> The extreme right wing organisation that attacks wilders as being a 
>> "neo-conservative"...!!
> 
> Wikipedia isn't always reliable, but I the following is well sourced:
> 
> 'Wilders has, in the eight years he has served in the Dutch Parliament, 
> always supported Israel and attacked countries he perceives as enemies 
> of Israel.[16]
> 'Furthermore, Wilders has made some proposals in the Dutch Parliament 
> inspired by Israel. For example, in 2005 Wilders proposed implementing 
> Israel's administrative detention in the Netherlands, a practice heavily 
> criticized by human rights group Amnesty International. Also, at the 
> time Wilders was member of the People's Party for Freedom and Democracy, 
> he had an employee who directly came from the Israeli Embassy. [16]'
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geert_Wilders#Israel>

Whilst I have no sympathy with a politician who quotes Maggie 
Thatcher and is a supporter of Israel, I was more concerned with the 
attempts to suppress the film and I was concerned that the film's 
website appeared to have been taken down.

It is a couple of years now since Talkorigins was taken down by a 
cracker, clearly religiously motivated. It still isn't back to its 
former strength.

Islam has to learn to take criticism.

regards, Ian

In article <6aadnc1PGKGWi-_VnZ2dnUVZ8u-dnZ2d@posted.plusnet>,
 Ian Smith  wrote:
> 
> Whilst I have no sympathy with a politician who quotes Maggie 
> Thatcher and is a supporter of Israel, I was more concerned with the 
> attempts to suppress the film and I was concerned that the film's 
> website appeared to have been taken down.

Isn't this the Fitna website?
<http://www.themoviefitna.com/>
And the video is available all over the Web. It seems to have made very 
little impression.

Alwyn

X-No-Archive: yes

"Alwyn"  wrote in message 
news:alwyn-0B1A87.18450307072008@news.virginmedia.com...
> In article <6aadnc1PGKGWi-_VnZ2dnUVZ8u-dnZ2d@posted.plusnet>,
> Ian Smith  wrote:
>>
>> Whilst I have no sympathy with a politician who quotes Maggie
>> Thatcher and is a supporter of Israel, I was more concerned with the
>> attempts to suppress the film and I was concerned that the film's
>> website appeared to have been taken down.
>
> Isn't this the Fitna website?
> <http://www.themoviefitna.com/>
> And the video is available all over the Web. It seems to have made very
> little impression.


I think I've seen just about every clip used in the film (...and some worse 
ones frankly:  I still have troubled nights dreaming about the clip of the 
stoning to death of a woman for alleged adultery,  it is not pretty to say 
the least) - but not put together in this way..
The clip of the afghan woman being shot in the back of the head is 
harrowing. She was an educated, middle class woman and I worked for some 
time with the organisation she was part of  (RAWA) who had, by then, 
decamped into Pakistan  There were many others also... they hung the man 
from the crossbar [the football pitch in Kabul was used for some pretty 
horrific acts of religious vengeance] for adultery with this woman.  It is 
truly disgusting.
Maybe we are becoming blase about the levels of violence that these 
fanatical religious devouts are capable of...


Mark

Alwyn wrote:
> In article <6aadnc1PGKGWi-_VnZ2dnUVZ8u-dnZ2d@posted.plusnet>,
>  Ian Smith  wrote:
>> Whilst I have no sympathy with a politician who quotes Maggie 
>> Thatcher and is a supporter of Israel, I was more concerned with the 
>> attempts to suppress the film and I was concerned that the film's 
>> website appeared to have been taken down.
> 
> Isn't this the Fitna website?
> <http://www.themoviefitna.com/>

Yep. It was showing a page indicating that it had been removed, 
earlier today.

regards, Ian