If anyone was totally dead, it was this woman, Val Thomas  ;  (a
Theistic Creator can and does intercede in humanity . He is the same
today, yesterday, and forever..and his name is Jesus)  :

http://www.wchstv.com/newsroom/eyewitness/0805/080521_41d512f9.shtml

In article 
,
 "IlBeBauck@gmail.com"  wrote:
>
> f anyone was totally dead, it was this woman, Val Thomas  ;  (a
> Theistic Creator can and does intercede in humanity . He is the same
> today, yesterday, and forever..and his name is Jesus)  :
> 
> http://www.wchstv.com/newsroom/eyewitness/0805/080521_41d512f9.shtml

'Good news though, Val had a heart cath Wednesday afternoon, it shows 
she has no blockages and no damage from the three heart attacks she 
suffered Saturday night. She does have some type of an electrical 
problem so she is now on her way to the Cleveland Clinic where more 
specialists can look at her.'

Well, there was less wrong with her heart than people suspected; these 
events happen from time to time. If this was a genuine miracle rather 
than sheer good luck, God would have ensured that Val had a perfectly 
healthy heart in the aftermath, with no 'electrical problems'. God 
doesn't do things by halves, does he?

Alwyn

On Jun 2, 5:05 pm, Alwyn  wrote:
> In article
> ,
>
>  "IlBeBa...@gmail.com"  wrote:
>
> > f anyone was totally dead, it was this woman, Val Thomas  ;  (a
> > Theistic Creator can and does intercede in humanity . He is the same
> > today, yesterday, and forever..and his name is Jesus)  :
>
> >http://www.wchstv.com/newsroom/eyewitness/0805/080521_41d512f9.shtml
>
> 'Good news though, Val had a heart cath Wednesday afternoon, it shows
> she has no blockages and no damage from the three heart attacks she
> suffered Saturday night. She does have some type of an electrical
> problem so she is now on her way to the Cleveland Clinic where more
> specialists can look at her.'
>
> Well, there was less wrong with her heart than people suspected; these
> events happen from time to time. If this was a genuine miracle rather
> than sheer good luck, God would have ensured that Val had a perfectly
> healthy heart in the aftermath, with no 'electrical problems'. God
> doesn't do things by halves, does he?
>
> Alwyn

REPLY:  Youll have to ask him when you stand before him (soon).
Heres a lady who even had rigor-mortis set in and  you consider it 'a
stroke of good luck'  that she came back  from death and can function
normally ?!   How deep do the excuses in atheism run anyway ?

X-No-Archive: yes

"Alwyn"  wrote in message 
news:alwyn-38E2E9.23045902062008@news.virginmedia.com...
> In article
> ,
> "IlBeBauck@gmail.com"  wrote:
>>
>> f anyone was totally dead, it was this woman, Val Thomas  ;  (a
>> Theistic Creator can and does intercede in humanity . He is the same
>> today, yesterday, and forever..and his name is Jesus)  :
>>
>> http://www.wchstv.com/newsroom/eyewitness/0805/080521_41d512f9.shtml
>
> 'Good news though, Val had a heart cath Wednesday afternoon, it shows
> she has no blockages and no damage from the three heart attacks she
> suffered Saturday night. She does have some type of an electrical
> problem so she is now on her way to the Cleveland Clinic where more
> specialists can look at her.'
>
> Well, there was less wrong with her heart than people suspected; these
> events happen from time to time. If this was a genuine miracle rather
> than sheer good luck, God would have ensured that Val had a perfectly
> healthy heart in the aftermath, with no 'electrical problems'. God
> doesn't do things by halves, does he?


Worse...... what we don't get is video, you tube, reports, media pieces and 
general broadcasts of those unfortunates that pass away IN SPITE of all the 
dodgy appealings to god to intervene...
No records of that anywhere..... I bet we couldn't even hazard a guess and 
be close to the numbers of people who died having been prayed for to 
survive....
More esoterically,  it is clear that a god who *existed*  outside of 
physicality  could not become part of causality.  The instance god causes an 
event he becomes physical and a physical god exists *somewhere*  ... at some 
time, somehow.  The antithesis then of the christian god...!

Mark

In article 
,
 "IlBeBauck@gmail.com"  wrote:

> On Jun 2, 5:05 pm, Alwyn  wrote:
> > In article
> > ,
> >
> >  "IlBeBa...@gmail.com"  wrote:
> >
> > > f anyone was totally dead, it was this woman, Val Thomas  ;  (a
> > > Theistic Creator can and does intercede in humanity . He is the same
> > > today, yesterday, and forever..and his name is Jesus)  :
> >
> > >http://www.wchstv.com/newsroom/eyewitness/0805/080521_41d512f9.shtml
> >
> > 'Good news though, Val had a heart cath Wednesday afternoon, it shows
> > she has no blockages and no damage from the three heart attacks she
> > suffered Saturday night. She does have some type of an electrical
> > problem so she is now on her way to the Cleveland Clinic where more
> > specialists can look at her.'
> >
> > Well, there was less wrong with her heart than people suspected; these
> > events happen from time to time. If this was a genuine miracle rather
> > than sheer good luck, God would have ensured that Val had a perfectly
> > healthy heart in the aftermath, with no 'electrical problems'. God
> > doesn't do things by halves, does he?
> >
> > Alwyn
> 
> REPLY:  Youll have to ask him when you stand before him (soon).
> Heres a lady who even had rigor-mortis set in and  you consider it 'a
> stroke of good luck'  that she came back  from death and can function
> normally ?!   How deep do the excuses in atheism run anyway ?

I see nothing in the article about rigor mortis, nothing even about 
brain death. She recovered after life support had been turned off, which 
is unusual but need not be considered a miracle.

The article says she was subjected to a regime that induces hypothermia. 
I quote:
'Reduced body temperature, or hypothermia, during clinical death slows 
the rate of injury accumulation, and extends the time period during 
which clinical death can be survived. The decrease in the rate of injury 
can be approximated by the Q10 rule, which states that the rate of 
biochemical reactions decreases by a factor of two for every 10°C 
reduction in temperature. As a result, humans can sometimes survive 
periods of clinical death exceeding one hour at temperatures below 
+20°C.[20] The prognosis is improved if clinical death is caused by 
hypothermia rather than occurring prior to it. It is said in emergency 
medicine that "nobody is dead until they are warm and dead."[21] In 
animal studies, up to three hours of clinical death can be survived at 
temperatures near 0°C.'
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_death>

So the probability that there is a scientific explanation for this 
'miracle' is rather high.

Alwyn

On Jun 2, 2:46 pm, Dimwit wrote more of his usual bullcrap

X-No-Archive: yes

"Alwyn"  wrote in message 
news:alwyn-DE7A16.00220403062008@news.virginmedia.com...
> In article

>>
>> REPLY:  Youll have to ask him when you stand before him (soon).
>> Heres a lady who even had rigor-mortis set in and  you consider it 'a
>> stroke of good luck'  that she came back  from death and can function
>> normally ?!   How deep do the excuses in atheism run anyway ?



> I see nothing in the article about rigor mortis, nothing even about
> brain death. She recovered after life support had been turned off, which
> is unusual but need not be considered a miracle.

Sadly this dodgy piece of *news* reporting actually mentions that......!! 
[.."only a respirator kept her breathing and rigor mortice had set in..."]
Just before this she(the reporter)  states "she (the patient) had no brain 
waves for 17 and a half hours and no heartbeat or pulse of her own for a 
long while (!!)".
Hmm.  I wonder how long a "long while"  is..?  Precision on time with the 
brain waves but a little fluffy on the heart beats....
Anyhow,  follow this to see actually how long after death before rigor 
mortis sets in.......

http://www.deathonline.net/decomposition/body_changes/rigor_mortis.htm

It starts around three hours after death.   Somethings not right here 
then.....   no mention of her lying dead for three hours minimum before she 
'woke up'...
The doctors put her onto a "special machine that induces hypothermia" so it 
isn't so surprising that she might have appeared stiffer and colder than 
normal..
Doctors, on the reporters own admission gave her a 10% chance of survival  - 
although it's not clear at what precise moment they said that - so 10% is 
not NIL percent, meaning that on average, 1 out of 10 people in the same 
situation WOULD survive anyway.
I've played this back a few times now....  it's a dodgy cut and paste VT 
job,  taking statements out of chronological order and cherry picking 
various peoples statements, trimming to suit the piece.
Nice to know she has made a good recovery ......apart from some remaining 
neurological issues that science and medicine are taking care of........ 
makes you wonder why they bother, doesn't it....?
I mean, why bother with the bloody hospital and neurologists,  god can bring 
you back from the dead...!!!!!!!!!   Just pick up your bible and say to 
god......"sort my brain out, will you, you forgot to do that last time you 
took care of things for me"......
It's a laughable presumption, frankly..


Mark

In article 
,
 Ken  wrote:

> On Jun 2, 2:46 pm, Dimwit wrote more of his usual bullcrap

The above contributes nothing to the discussion. Why do you do it?

This 'miracle report' deserved comment, if only to show that no actual 
miracle was involved. Also interesting was Dave's remark about 'rigor 
mortis', which is illustrative of the way he tends to 'embroider' 
stories that he quotes to support his case.

In article ,
 "mark"  wrote:
> 
> Sadly this dodgy piece of *news* reporting actually mentions that......!! 
> [.."only a respirator kept her breathing and rigor mortice had set in..."]
> Just before this she(the reporter)  states "she (the patient) had no brain 
> waves for 17 and a half hours and no heartbeat or pulse of her own for a 
> long while (!!)".

My bad, I just read the story and didn't listen to the clip.

> Hmm.  I wonder how long a "long while"  is..?  Precision on time with the 
> brain waves but a little fluffy on the heart beats....
> Anyhow,  follow this to see actually how long after death before rigor 
> mortis sets in.......
> 
> http://www.deathonline.net/decomposition/body_changes/rigor_mortis.htm
> 
> It starts around three hours after death.   Somethings not right here 
> then.....   no mention of her lying dead for three hours minimum before she 
> 'woke up'...

Rigor mortis is due to a chain of chemical reactions causing the muscles 
to contract; this can be delayed if the body is at a low temperature.

> The doctors put her onto a "special machine that induces hypothermia" so it 
> isn't so surprising that she might have appeared stiffer and colder than 
> normal..
> Doctors, on the reporters own admission gave her a 10% chance of survival  - 
> although it's not clear at what precise moment they said that - so 10% is 
> not NIL percent, meaning that on average, 1 out of 10 people in the same 
> situation WOULD survive anyway.
> I've played this back a few times now....  it's a dodgy cut and paste VT 
> job,  taking statements out of chronological order and cherry picking 
> various peoples statements, trimming to suit the piece.
> Nice to know she has made a good recovery ......apart from some remaining 
> neurological issues that science and medicine are taking care of........ 
> makes you wonder why they bother, doesn't it....?
> I mean, why bother with the bloody hospital and neurologists,  god can bring 
> you back from the dead...!!!!!!!!!   Just pick up your bible and say to 
> god......"sort my brain out, will you, you forgot to do that last time you 
> took care of things for me"......
> It's a laughable presumption, frankly..

Heart attacks kill thousands every day, and God does not seem to lift a 
finger to stop it. Why this Val Thomas should be spared and not the 
rest, God only knows.

Alwyn

On Jun 2, 5:00 pm, Alwyn  wrote:
> In article
> ,
>
>  Ken  wrote:
> > On Jun 2, 2:46 pm, Dimwit wrote more of his usual bullcrap
>
> The above contributes nothing to the discussion. Why do you do it?
>
> This 'miracle report' deserved comment, if only to show that no actual
> miracle was involved. Also interesting was Dave's remark about 'rigor
> mortis', which is illustrative of the way he tends to 'embroider'
> stories that he quotes to support his case.

Perhaps you failed to notice that the OP doesn't contribute to
anything useful/sensible to the thread, to this group, or to humanity
in general.
Dimwit has long ago worn out the welcome he never had, but that's what
trolls do

IlBeBauck@gmail.com wrote:
> If anyone was totally dead, it was this woman, Val Thomas  ;  (a
> Theistic Creator can and does intercede in humanity . He is the same
> today, yesterday, and forever..and his name is Jesus)  :
> 
> http://www.wchstv.com/newsroom/eyewitness/0805/080521_41d512f9.shtml
> 

Amazing! Well I guess it has to be god and nothing whatsoever to do 
with all the medical technology that was thrown at her.

So, I guess we now need to start asking some tough questions of god:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/god5.htm

regards, Ian

Ken wrote:
> On Jun 2, 5:00 pm, Alwyn  wrote:
>> In article
>> ,
>>
>> Ken  wrote:
>>> On Jun 2, 2:46 pm, Dimwit wrote more of his usual bullcrap
>>
>> The above contributes nothing to the discussion. Why do you do it?
>>
>> This 'miracle report' deserved comment, if only to show that no
>> actual miracle was involved. Also interesting was Dave's remark
>> about 'rigor mortis', which is illustrative of the way he tends to
>> 'embroider' stories that he quotes to support his case.
>
> Perhaps you failed to notice that the OP doesn't contribute to
> anything useful/sensible to the thread, to this group, or to humanity
> in general.
> Dimwit has long ago worn out the welcome he never had, but that's what
> trolls do

Dimwit is scientific evidence of the fact that it is possible to use the 
internet whilst in a state of brain-death.

-- 
http://www.kustomkomputa.co.uk
Personalised Desktop Computers

The message <x9udnRneJauPYdnVnZ2dnUVZ8taknZ2d@plusnet>
from Ian Smith  contains these words:

> Amazing! Well I guess it has to be god and nothing whatsoever to do 
> with all the medical technology that was thrown at her.

It is exactly the same as primitive man attributing anything that he
could not explain to the actions of his god and just as daft.   It is
possible to do the same with prayers as some will coincidently be
answered by what was anyway going to happen. 

These half baked gullible idiots do not mention all the countless
millions of cases where no divine intervention took place or the
billions of prayers which remain unanswered by their imaginary god!

-- 
********
David WG
********

X-No-Archive: yes

"Alwyn"  wrote in message 
news:alwyn-29C87B.01433303062008@text.news.virginmedia.com...
> In article ,
> "mark"  wrote:

>> Nice to know she has made a good recovery ......apart from some remaining
>> neurological issues that science and medicine are taking care of........
>> makes you wonder why they bother, doesn't it....?
>> I mean, why bother with the bloody hospital and neurologists,  god can 
>> bring
>> you back from the dead...!!!!!!!!!   Just pick up your bible and say to
>> god......"sort my brain out, will you, you forgot to do that last time 
>> you
>> took care of things for me"......
>> It's a laughable presumption, frankly..

> Heart attacks kill thousands every day, and God does not seem to lift a
> finger to stop it. Why this Val Thomas should be spared and not the
> rest, God only knows.


Absolutely...
Is this not also a microcosm of the fundamentalists that, instead and in 
place of objectivity, they place a *supernatural* interventionist when there 
'appears' to be no explanation..!
Thus, we see claims of miracles when science and medicine cannot explain 
some phenomena or other - note: not let's try and explain the unexplained 
but goddidit - and when science pulls up short in explaining how the 
universe started beyond all doubt... we get goddidit.
It's the 'default' position for fundamentalists.  When there *appears* to be 
no explanation...they insert god..!!
I'm still trying to come to terms with the notion of a non physical god who 
is also physical...... he cannot be both, by definition.


Mark

X-No-Archive: yes

"David Wynne-Griffiths"  wrote in message 
news:313030303130343948452E8762@zetnet.co.uk...
> The message <x9udnRneJauPYdnVnZ2dnUVZ8taknZ2d@plusnet>
> from Ian Smith  contains these 
> words:
>
>> Amazing! Well I guess it has to be god and nothing whatsoever to do
>> with all the medical technology that was thrown at her.


> It is exactly the same as primitive man attributing anything that he
> could not explain to the actions of his god and just as daft.   It is
> possible to do the same with prayers as some will coincidently be
> answered by what was anyway going to happen.

The recent pictures (..I have very mixed feelings about this however...) of 
a remote tribe on the borders of Brazil and Peru, hidden away for thousands 
of years without contact with the modern world whatsoever - remarkable in 
itself - gives an idea of  this primitive man.....
On seeing the small plane which circled taking the pictures, some tribe 
members attempted to fire arrows at the plane.......
For all we know, this tribe is already discussing the possibility that this 
plane was a *god* from the sky sent for some retribution or other...who 
knows.
We KNOW the plane wasn't god  but that may well have already entered into 
the pysche and culture of this tribe.
It is this primitive notion that is exactly, and faithfully,  reproduced by 
ignorance and irrationality,  demonstrated unequivecably by modern religious 
devouts..

> These half baked gullible idiots do not mention all the countless
> millions of cases where no divine intervention took place or the
> billions of prayers which remain unanswered by their imaginary god!

Yes.   One imagines the prayers offered in the wake of the boxing day sunami 
that remained unanswered....
The most disgusting response however, in my view, is when religious devouts 
explain it all away by claiming *we* cannot know gods wishes and who are we 
to understand how, why or when he intervenes..!!
In moments of sheer disaster around the world I despise those religious 
idiots who shuffle their feet over *their* interventionist god....

Mark

"mark"  a écrit dans le message de news: 
u9GdnQ9psbaCvtjVnZ2dnUVZ8t3inZ2d@bt.com...
| X-No-Archive: yes
|
| "Alwyn"  wrote in message
| news:alwyn-29C87B.01433303062008@text.news.virginmedia.com...
| > In article ,
| > "mark"  wrote:
|
| >> Nice to know she has made a good recovery ......apart from some remaining
| >> neurological issues that science and medicine are taking care of........
| >> makes you wonder why they bother, doesn't it....?
| >> I mean, why bother with the bloody hospital and neurologists,  god can
| >> bring
| >> you back from the dead...!!!!!!!!!   Just pick up your bible and say to
| >> god......"sort my brain out, will you, you forgot to do that last time
| >> you
| >> took care of things for me"......
| >> It's a laughable presumption, frankly..
|
| > Heart attacks kill thousands every day, and God does not seem to lift a
| > finger to stop it. Why this Val Thomas should be spared and not the
| > rest, God only knows.
|
| Absolutely...
| Is this not also a microcosm of the fundamentalists that, instead and in
| place of objectivity, they place a *supernatural* interventionist when there
| 'appears' to be no explanation..!
| Thus, we see claims of miracles when science and medicine cannot explain
| some phenomena or other - note: not let's try and explain the unexplained
| but goddidit - and when science pulls up short in explaining how the
| universe started beyond all doubt... we get goddidit.
| It's the 'default' position for fundamentalists.  When there *appears* to be
| no explanation...they insert god..!!
| I'm still trying to come to terms with the notion of a non physical god who
| is also physical...... he cannot be both, by definition.

I queried on ukrc recently whether the Lourdes marketing department kept any 
records of the number of pilgrims who actually dropped off this mortal coil, or 
suffered major relapses, as a direct consequence of travelling from afar, 
disappointment, stress, eating snails and frogs' legs, one Pastis too many, etc.

I would wager the numbers involved would outweigh those of the alleged miracle 
healings by a factor of many thousands to one (Lourdes has 5 million visitors 
annually).

The moral of the story is simple. Whatever your ailment, go see the doctor. If 
it's too much to bear, and apparently incurable, then a trip to Lourdes would 
probably hurry things along a bit.

pga

(PS Mark, given up on ukrc already? :-)

X-No-Archive: yes

"PG"  wrote in message 
news:48452d9f$0$904$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...
>
> "mark"  a écrit dans le message de news:

> | Absolutely...
> | Is this not also a microcosm of the fundamentalists that, instead and in
> | place of objectivity, they place a *supernatural* interventionist when 
> there
> | 'appears' to be no explanation..!
> | Thus, we see claims of miracles when science and medicine cannot explain
> | some phenomena or other - note: not let's try and explain the 
> unexplained
> | but goddidit - and when science pulls up short in explaining how the
> | universe started beyond all doubt... we get goddidit.
> | It's the 'default' position for fundamentalists.  When there *appears* 
> to be
> | no explanation...they insert god..!!
> | I'm still trying to come to terms with the notion of a non physical god 
> who
> | is also physical...... he cannot be both, by definition.
>
> I queried on ukrc recently whether the Lourdes marketing department kept 
> any
> records of the number of pilgrims who actually dropped off this mortal 
> coil, or
> suffered major relapses, as a direct consequence of travelling from afar,
> disappointment, stress, eating snails and frogs' legs, one Pastis too 
> many, etc.


> I would wager the numbers involved would outweigh those of the alleged 
> miracle
> healings by a factor of many thousands to one (Lourdes has 5 million 
> visitors
> annually).


on the 14/112005.....
(cut & pasted...)
Lourdes - The Roman Catholic Church has recognised as "miraculous" the case 
of an Italian woman who recovered from a serious illness after a pilgrimage 
to Lourdes in 1952, the sanctuary said on Monday. Anna Santaniello's 
recovery has become the 67th "miracle cure" officially attributed to the 
sanctuary in south-western France. Lourdes is Christianity's most-visited 
place of pilgrimage after Rome. Now aged 94, Santaniello had Bouillaud's 
disease, a rheumatic condition that causes trouble with speaking and 
walking, as well as acute asthma attacks, cyanosis of the face and lips, and 
swelling of the legs. She has returned several times to Lourdes as a nurse. 
In 1961, the international medical committee at the sanctuary described her 
case as "extraordinary". Every year, about six million pilgrims flock to the 
small town at the foothills of the Pyrenees, where the Virgin Mary is 
claimed to have appeared to a young miller's daughter, Bernadette Soubirous, 
inside a cave in 1858. Among the pilgrims are hundreds of thousands of sick 
and handicapped, fervently praying for a cure from the holy power of the 
site's spring water.



I could comment but it hardly seems necessary....




> The moral of the story is simple. Whatever your ailment, go see the 
> doctor. If
> it's too much to bear, and apparently incurable, then a trip to Lourdes 
> would
> probably hurry things along a bit.

:+)   ....yes.


> (PS Mark, given up on ukrc already? :-)

Pas forcement, mais des fois il es un peu trop pour moi....


Mark

David Wynne-Griffiths wrote:
> The message <x9udnRneJauPYdnVnZ2dnUVZ8taknZ2d@plusnet>
> from Ian Smith  contains these words:
> 
>> Amazing! Well I guess it has to be god and nothing whatsoever to do 
>> with all the medical technology that was thrown at her.
> 
> It is exactly the same as primitive man attributing anything that he
> could not explain to the actions of his god and just as daft.   It is
> possible to do the same with prayers as some will coincidently be
> answered by what was anyway going to happen. 
> 
> These half baked gullible idiots do not mention all the countless
> millions of cases where no divine intervention took place or the
> billions of prayers which remain unanswered by their imaginary god!
> 

It is strange that they don't appear to see the logical issues 
created when they assert that this god intervenes in some cases, but 
not in others. I imagine that in a tour round the cancer ward in any 
large children's hospital you would find a few distressing and 
deserving cases from deeply christian families that were being ignored.

However, debating the logical contortions of an imaginary sky fairy 
isn't something I'm prepared to waste my time on.

regards, Ian

On Jun 2, 6:22 pm, Alwyn  wrote:
> In article
> ,
>
>
>
>
>
>  "IlBeBa...@gmail.com"  wrote:
> > On Jun 2, 5:05 pm, Alwyn  wrote:
> > > In article
> > > ,
>
> > >  "IlBeBa...@gmail.com"  wrote:
>
> > > > f anyone was totally dead, it was this woman, Val Thomas  ;  (a
> > > > Theistic Creator can and does intercede in humanity . He is the same> > > > today, yesterday, and forever..and his name is Jesus)  :
>
> > > >http://www.wchstv.com/newsroom/eyewitness/0805/080521_41d512f9.shtml
>
> > > 'Good news though, Val had a heart cath Wednesday afternoon, it shows
> > > she has no blockages and no damage from the three heart attacks she
> > > suffered Saturday night. She does have some type of an electrical
> > > problem so she is now on her way to the Cleveland Clinic where more
> > > specialists can look at her.'
>
> > > Well, there was less wrong with her heart than people suspected; these> > > events happen from time to time. If this was a genuine miracle rather
> > > than sheer good luck, God would have ensured that Val had a perfectly
> > > healthy heart in the aftermath, with no 'electrical problems'. God
> > > doesn't do things by halves, does he?
>
> > > Alwyn
>
> > REPLY:  Youll have to ask him when you stand before him (soon).
> > Heres a lady who even had rigor-mortis set in and  you consider it 'a
> > stroke of good luck'  that she came back  from death and can function
> > normally ?!   How deep do the excuses in atheism run anyway ?
>
> I see nothing in the article about rigor mortis, nothing even about
> brain death. She recovered after life support had been turned off, which
> is unusual but need not be considered a miracle.
>
> The article says she was subjected to a regime that induces hypothermia.
> I quote:
> 'Reduced body temperature, or hypothermia, during clinical death slows
> the rate of injury accumulation, and extends the time period during
> which clinical death can be survived. The decrease in the rate of injury
> can be approximated by the Q10 rule, which states that the rate of
> biochemical reactions decreases by a factor of two for every 10°C
> reduction in temperature. As a result, humans can sometimes survive
> periods of clinical death exceeding one hour at temperatures below
> °C.[20] The prognosis is improved if clinical death is caused by
> hypothermia rather than occurring prior to it. It is said in emergency
> medicine that "nobody is dead until they are warm and dead."[21] In
> animal studies, up to three hours of clinical death can be survived at
> temperatures near 0°C.'
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_death>
>
> So the probability that there is a scientific explanation for this
> 'miracle' is rather high.
>
> Alwyn- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

REPLY:  Rigor Mortis was mentioned in the video clip AND in the text ,
and in other internet reports on this lady.  If you still believe this
was 'a stroke of good luck' and that 'this is a common thing'...then
please provide a few other cases where the person was dead for 17
hours then came back to life .  Jesus Christ is real and Id encourage
you to recieve him as your personal Creator and Saviour whilst there
is still time for you to do so ;  it wont do any good wishing you
had .   Look into Jesus Christ intently  and forsake holding onto him
as 'just a religious myth' .

On Jun 2, 6:22 pm, Alwyn  wrote:
> In article
> ,
>
>
>
>
>
>  "IlBeBa...@gmail.com"  wrote:
> > On Jun 2, 5:05 pm, Alwyn  wrote:
> > > In article
> > > ,
>
> > >  "IlBeBa...@gmail.com"  wrote:
>
> > > > f anyone was totally dead, it was this woman, Val Thomas  ;  (a
> > > > Theistic Creator can and does intercede in humanity . He is the same> > > > today, yesterday, and forever..and his name is Jesus)  :
>
> > > >http://www.wchstv.com/newsroom/eyewitness/0805/080521_41d512f9.shtml
>
> > > 'Good news though, Val had a heart cath Wednesday afternoon, it shows
> > > she has no blockages and no damage from the three heart attacks she
> > > suffered Saturday night. She does have some type of an electrical
> > > problem so she is now on her way to the Cleveland Clinic where more
> > > specialists can look at her.'
>
> > > Well, there was less wrong with her heart than people suspected; these> > > events happen from time to time. If this was a genuine miracle rather
> > > than sheer good luck, God would have ensured that Val had a perfectly
> > > healthy heart in the aftermath, with no 'electrical problems'. God
> > > doesn't do things by halves, does he?
>
> > > Alwyn
>
> > REPLY:  Youll have to ask him when you stand before him (soon).
> > Heres a lady who even had rigor-mortis set in and  you consider it 'a
> > stroke of good luck'  that she came back  from death and can function
> > normally ?!   How deep do the excuses in atheism run anyway ?
>
> I see nothing in the article about rigor mortis, nothing even about
> brain death. She recovered after life support had been turned off, which
> is unusual but need not be considered a miracle.
>
> The article says she was subjected to a regime that induces hypothermia.
> I quote:
> 'Reduced body temperature, or hypothermia, during clinical death slows
> the rate of injury accumulation, and extends the time period during
> which clinical death can be survived. The decrease in the rate of injury
> can be approximated by the Q10 rule, which states that the rate of
> biochemical reactions decreases by a factor of two for every 10°C
> reduction in temperature. As a result, humans can sometimes survive
> periods of clinical death exceeding one hour at temperatures below
> °C.[20] The prognosis is improved if clinical death is caused by
> hypothermia rather than occurring prior to it. It is said in emergency
> medicine that "nobody is dead until they are warm and dead."[21] In
> animal studies, up to three hours of clinical death can be survived at
> temperatures near 0°C.'
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_death>
>
> So the probability that there is a scientific explanation for this
> 'miracle' is rather high.
>
> Alwyn- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

REPLY:  http://www.google.com/search?q=val똚♪&rls=com.microsoft:*:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7SUNA

IlBeBauck@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jun 2, 6:22 pm, Alwyn  wrote:
>> In article
>> ,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "IlBeBa...@gmail.com"  wrote:
>>> On Jun 2, 5:05 pm, Alwyn  wrote:
>>>> In article
>>>> ,
>>
>>>> "IlBeBa...@gmail.com"  wrote:
>>
>>>>> f anyone was totally dead, it was this woman, Val Thomas ; (a
>>>>> Theistic Creator can and does intercede in humanity . He is the
>>>>> same today, yesterday, and forever..and his name is Jesus) :
>>
>>>>> http://www.wchstv.com/newsroom/eyewitness/0805/080521_41d512f9.shtml
>>
>>>> 'Good news though, Val had a heart cath Wednesday afternoon, it
>>>> shows she has no blockages and no damage from the three heart
>>>> attacks she suffered Saturday night. She does have some type of an
>>>> electrical problem so she is now on her way to the Cleveland
>>>> Clinic where more specialists can look at her.'
>>
>>>> Well, there was less wrong with her heart than people suspected;
>>>> these events happen from time to time. If this was a genuine
>>>> miracle rather than sheer good luck, God would have ensured that
>>>> Val had a perfectly healthy heart in the aftermath, with no
>>>> 'electrical problems'. God doesn't do things by halves, does he?
>>
>>>> Alwyn
>>
>>> REPLY: Youll have to ask him when you stand before him (soon).
>>> Heres a lady who even had rigor-mortis set in and you consider it 'a
>>> stroke of good luck' that she came back from death and can function
>>> normally ?! How deep do the excuses in atheism run anyway ?
>>
>> I see nothing in the article about rigor mortis, nothing even about
>> brain death. She recovered after life support had been turned off,
>> which is unusual but need not be considered a miracle.
>>
>> The article says she was subjected to a regime that induces
>> hypothermia. I quote:
>> 'Reduced body temperature, or hypothermia, during clinical death
>> slows the rate of injury accumulation, and extends the time period
>> during which clinical death can be survived. The decrease in the
>> rate of injury can be approximated by the Q10 rule, which states
>> that the rate of biochemical reactions decreases by a factor of two
>> for every 10°C reduction in temperature. As a result, humans can
>> sometimes survive periods of clinical death exceeding one hour at
>> temperatures below +20°C.[20] The prognosis is improved if clinical
>> death is caused by hypothermia rather than occurring prior to it. It
>> is said in emergency medicine that "nobody is dead until they are
>> warm and dead."[21] In animal studies, up to three hours of clinical
>> death can be survived at temperatures near 0°C.'
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_death>
>>
>> So the probability that there is a scientific explanation for this
>> 'miracle' is rather high.
>>
>> Alwyn- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> REPLY:  Rigor Mortis was mentioned in the video clip AND in the text ,
> and in other internet reports on this lady.  If you still believe this
> was 'a stroke of good luck' and that 'this is a common thing'...then
> please provide a few other cases where the person was dead for 17
> hours then came back to life .

Ok so it may pr may not be a common thing....

>  Jesus Christ is real and Id encourage
> you to recieve him as your personal Creator and Saviour whilst there
> is still time for you to do so ;  it wont do any good wishing you
> had .

What has that to do with anything? Where is the evidence? Are you saying 
that this woman's case is the evidence? If so it's pretty flimsy evidence. I 
died as a child, and I was told by my mother that ""God" had brought me back 
to life." AFAIAC it was the medical people who did it: "God" didn't restart 
my heart; unless "God" resides as electricity in a pulmonary stimulator. If 
it was "God" then why doesn't "God" bring everyone back to life? Your "God" 
appears to be a random favouritist; aka Lady Luck.

>   Look into Jesus Christ intently  and forsake holding onto him
> as 'just a religious myth' .

Even if one were to "look into JC intently..." he is still just a religious 
myth: There's no getting away from the fact. Most people here have in fact 
done just that; which may well be part of the reason why they are now 
Atheists - But to understand and analyse properly you need intelligence 
rather than simply relying on what you're told. I'm sorry to say it but 
you're not exactly the most astute of individuals in that area; so maybe you 
should dedicate a lot of extra time to looking into the facts, or lack of 
them, in order to gain a realistic individual perception of reality as it 
really is, rather than what exists within your tiny mind.


-- 
http://www.kustomkomputa.co.uk
Personalised Desktop Computers