'Of course the whole point about miracles, God, and all that is
precisely that they are not rational'

REPLY:  Miracles are a given reality ; unless you dont think a
personal/intelligent Universe that requires 250 scientifically confirmed
razor edge precise Physics Constants , all needed simultaneously and all
working in unison,  so the Universe can be here, be sustained, so earth
can be here so we can be alive on it.... isnt a miracle (??) .  Miracles
ARE rational because the greatest one has already took place and a
Theistic Creator who made that happen can certainly produce lesser
miracles from time to time in peoples lives...and...in fact does when
multiple Medical Doctors agree there is absolutely no chance .  Not only
is a personal intelligent Creator rational , it is the only rational
explanation for the design and engineering evidence for our Universe
which even secular scientists have uncovered.

'I have never ever heard anyone at all say that they 'believe that
nothing produced a highly tweaked universe'. It is of course baloney and
is deliberately so because it is what I would call 'setting up an aunt
sally' but I think the official line is to call it a straw man argument.
Please therefore do not use this incorrect assertion again.'

REPLY:  Atheism in case you are not aware, is : Faith in NOTHING .
Modern Science has firmly established that the universe had a definite
beginning in time ; if it had a definite beginning then it was caused.
The cause is either :  an intelligent willful deliberate one from
nothing indicating A BEING above and beyond it, or,  it was caused by
NOTHING from nothing . If you want to insert the unproven desperate
notion of Multiple Universe 'THEORY'  where one Universe burps into
another...then the above still applies to the very first one . Youre
only pushing it back a few steps.  The most irrational thing going today
is atheism which is why theres only some 8%  that are desperate enough
to want to believe in it (for the sole purpose of wanting to have max.
personal freedom and entitlement to live life THIER way without any
external fly in the ointments...like a darn personal Theistic Creator).

'Saying that a perfectly decent sensible person is actually very bad,
just because they do not agree with your own views is in fact a bad
thing to do. '

REPLY:  Just a slight introspection of oneself (atheist or theist or
whatever pursuasion...) shows a deep rooted infection called Sin and is
evident in the form of rebellion , pride, selfism, narcissism showing
that the human heart is foundationally decietful and wicked .  So much
so, that, we are willing to compromise truth, make up smokescreens ,
sidestep what we know to be rational and reasonable,  are willing to
embrace philosophies that we know full well dont make any sense....all
in an effort to DO what we want to DO , when we want to ;  its all about
putting oneself on the throne thereby making oneself The Diety . The
secular religion of atheism simply takes full advantage of these secular
humanist philosophies and is willing to come up with justifiable
smokescreens despite the real scientific evidence otherwise,  because
nothing is more important than SELF -- not even the Creator of the
Universe whom he knows has to exist, but is unwilling to admit so due to
the obvious personal implications of wanting to reject him.

On 30 Apr, 19:51, DaveInLakeVi...@webtv.net (Dave in Lake Villa)
wrote:
> 'Of course the whole point about miracles, God, and all that is
> precisely that they are not rational'
>
> REPLY:  Miracles are a given reality ; unless you dont think a
> personal/intelligent Universe that requires 250 scientifically confirmed
> razor edge precise Physics Constants , all needed simultaneously and all
> working in unison,  so the Universe can be here, be sustained, so earth
> can be here so we can be alive on it.... isnt a miracle (??) .  Miracles> ARE rational because the greatest one has already took place and a
> Theistic Creator who made that happen can certainly produce lesser
> miracles from time to time in peoples lives...and...in fact does when
> multiple Medical Doctors agree there is absolutely no chance .  Not only> is a personal intelligent Creator rational , it is the only rational
> explanation for the design and engineering evidence for our Universe
> which even secular scientists have uncovered.
>
> 'I have never ever heard anyone at all say that they 'believe that
> nothing produced a highly tweaked universe'. It is of course baloney and
> is deliberately so because it is what I would call 'setting up an aunt
> sally' but I think the official line is to call it a straw man argument.
> Please therefore do not use this incorrect assertion again.'
>
> REPLY:  Atheism in case you are not aware, is : Faith in NOTHING .
> Modern Science has firmly established that the universe had a definite
> beginning in time ; if it had a definite beginning then it was caused.
> The cause is either :  an intelligent willful deliberate one from
> nothing indicating A BEING above and beyond it, or,  it was caused by
> NOTHING from nothing . If you want to insert the unproven desperate
> notion of Multiple Universe 'THEORY'  where one Universe burps into
> another...then the above still applies to the very first one . Youre
> only pushing it back a few steps.  The most irrational thing going today> is atheism which is why theres only some 8%  that are desperate enough
> to want to believe in it (for the sole purpose of wanting to have max.
> personal freedom and entitlement to live life THIER way without any
> external fly in the ointments...like a darn personal Theistic Creator).
>
> 'Saying that a perfectly decent sensible person is actually very bad,
> just because they do not agree with your own views is in fact a bad
> thing to do. '
>
> REPLY:  Just a slight introspection of oneself (atheist or theist or
> whatever pursuasion...) shows a deep rooted infection called Sin and is
> evident in the form of rebellion , pride, selfism, narcissism showing
> that the human heart is foundationally decietful and wicked .  So much
> so, that, we are willing to compromise truth, make up smokescreens ,
> sidestep what we know to be rational and reasonable,  are willing to
> embrace philosophies that we know full well dont make any sense....all
> in an effort to DO what we want to DO , when we want to ;  its all about> putting oneself on the throne thereby making oneself The Diety . The
> secular religion of atheism simply takes full advantage of these secular
> humanist philosophies and is willing to come up with justifiable
> smokescreens despite the real scientific evidence otherwise,  because
> nothing is more important than SELF -- not even the Creator of the
> Universe whom he knows has to exist, but is unwilling to admit so due to
> the obvious personal implications of wanting to reject him.  

Blimey!  A Christian who does not know what a miracle is.  I tell you
mate it does not mean something improbable.

"John Brockbank"  wrote in message 
news:1188e3bf-402d-4268-8c27-68ec38914a54@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On 30 Apr, 19:51, DaveInLakeVi...@webtv.net (Dave in Lake Villa)
wrote:

Blimey!  A Christian who does not know what a miracle is.
___________________________________________________
It's a miracle, that is!!
Graham

On May 2, 1:43 pm, John Brockbank 
wrote:
> On 30 Apr, 19:51, DaveInLakeVi...@webtv.net (Dave in Lake Villa)
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > 'Of course the whole point about miracles, God, and all that is
> > precisely that they are not rational'
>
> > REPLY:  Miracles are a given reality ; unless you dont think a
> > personal/intelligent Universe that requires 250 scientifically confirmed> > razor edge precise Physics Constants , all needed simultaneously and all> > working in unison,  so the Universe can be here, be sustained, so earth
> > can be here so we can be alive on it.... isnt a miracle (??) .  Miracles
> > ARE rational because the greatest one has already took place and a
> > Theistic Creator who made that happen can certainly produce lesser
> > miracles from time to time in peoples lives...and...in fact does when
> > multiple Medical Doctors agree there is absolutely no chance .  Not only
> > is a personal intelligent Creator rational , it is the only rational
> > explanation for the design and engineering evidence for our Universe
> > which even secular scientists have uncovered.
>
> > 'I have never ever heard anyone at all say that they 'believe that
> > nothing produced a highly tweaked universe'. It is of course baloney and> > is deliberately so because it is what I would call 'setting up an aunt
> > sally' but I think the official line is to call it a straw man argument.> > Please therefore do not use this incorrect assertion again.'
>
> > REPLY:  Atheism in case you are not aware, is : Faith in NOTHING .
> > Modern Science has firmly established that the universe had a definite
> > beginning in time ; if it had a definite beginning then it was caused.
> > The cause is either :  an intelligent willful deliberate one from
> > nothing indicating A BEING above and beyond it, or,  it was caused by
> > NOTHING from nothing . If you want to insert the unproven desperate
> > notion of Multiple Universe 'THEORY'  where one Universe burps into
> > another...then the above still applies to the very first one . Youre
> > only pushing it back a few steps.  The most irrational thing going today
> > is atheism which is why theres only some 8%  that are desperate enough> > to want to believe in it (for the sole purpose of wanting to have max.
> > personal freedom and entitlement to live life THIER way without any
> > external fly in the ointments...like a darn personal Theistic Creator).
>
> > 'Saying that a perfectly decent sensible person is actually very bad,
> > just because they do not agree with your own views is in fact a bad
> > thing to do. '
>
> > REPLY:  Just a slight introspection of oneself (atheist or theist or
> > whatever pursuasion...) shows a deep rooted infection called Sin and is
> > evident in the form of rebellion , pride, selfism, narcissism showing
> > that the human heart is foundationally decietful and wicked .  So much> > so, that, we are willing to compromise truth, make up smokescreens ,
> > sidestep what we know to be rational and reasonable,  are willing to
> > embrace philosophies that we know full well dont make any sense....all
> > in an effort to DO what we want to DO , when we want to ;  its all about
> > putting oneself on the throne thereby making oneself The Diety . The
> > secular religion of atheism simply takes full advantage of these secular> > humanist philosophies and is willing to come up with justifiable
> > smokescreens despite the real scientific evidence otherwise,  because
> > nothing is more important than SELF -- not even the Creator of the
> > Universe whom he knows has to exist, but is unwilling to admit so due to> > the obvious personal implications of wanting to reject him.  
>
> Blimey!  A Christian who does not know what a miracle is.  I tell you
> mate it does not mean something improbable.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

REPLY: DaveinLakeVilla and this addy, are the same person.  I know
what a miracle is, and just gave it to you above.  Now its up to YOU
to realize that miracles are possible and occur daily , and if you
ever decide to put aside your pride and rebellion to accept Christ as
your personal Saviour and stop pretending that a personal Theistic
Creator isnt needed, then you will have experienced a miracle
YOURSELF !    Jump in...its refreshing to not follow the out of
control Culture who makes up desperate philosophies to reject the most
rational thing ever : that God exists.

Hi,

Narcissism and Religion

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/journal45.html

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faq47.html

More about narcissistic collectives, cultures, and societies - click
on
these links:

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/14.html

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/journal87.html

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/lasch.html

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/journal62.html

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/journal63.html

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faq47.html

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/15.html

For a more detailed view of pathological narcissism and the
Narcissistic
Personality Disorder (NPD) - click on these links:

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/npdglance.html

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/narcissismglance.html

Other Personality Disorders

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faqpd.html

Pathological Narcissism and Other Mental Health Disorders

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faq82.html

NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) and AsPD (Antisocial
Personality
Disorder, Psychopathy, or Sociopathy)

http://samvak.tripod.com/personalitydisorders16.html

http://samvak.tripod.com/personalitydisorders15.html

Serial and mass killers

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/serialkillers.html

School shootings

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/9.html

Narcissism and Evil

http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/journal65.html

Take care.

Sam

wrote in message 
news:29030e88-7fff-4dbb-bb45-217c2c299095@b64g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
On May 2, 1:43 pm, John Brockbank 
wrote:
> On 30 Apr, 19:51, DaveInLakeVi...@webtv.net (Dave in Lake Villa)
> > REPLY: Miracles are a given reality ; unless you dont think a
> > personal/intelligent Universe that requires 250 scientifically confirmed
> > razor edge precise Physics Constants , all needed simultaneously and all
> > working in unison, so the Universe can be here, be sustained, so earth
> > can be here so we can be alive on it.... isnt a miracle (??) . Miracles
> > ARE rational because the greatest one has already took place and a

> Blimey! A Christian who does not know what a miracle is. I tell you
> mate it does not mean something improbable.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

<<REPLY: DaveinLakeVilla and this addy, are the <<same person.  I know
<<what a miracle is, and just gave it to you <<above.  Now its up to YOU
to realize that miracles are possible and occur daily ,

Your definition of a miracle appears to ne something very improbable.   That 
is quite incorrect, at least that it not the usual meaning of the word.

Things which are extremely improbable (indeed, completely improbable) happen 
a lot.  I will give you an example.  A little girl from Birmingham, England, 
was on holiday at a seaside resort in Southern England.  On the last day of 
her holiday she wrote a message and put it in a plastic bottle and threw it 
into the sea.  Almost two years later she received a letter from Australia 
where another little girl, of the same name, had found the bottle.

That is not a miracle but it was improbable before it happened.  We can not 
apply probability to past events.  If we did so we would have to assume that 
such an event with a probability of zero did not actually happen by chance 
but was somehow a cheat, or we might say that a person just made it up.

However, such things with zero probability happen a lot.  They are not 
miracles.

In fact, arguing that God can only do things that are improbable is 
effectively also admitting that those things can have happened by chance.

X-No-Archive: yes

"John Brockbank"  wrote in message 
news:481cabee$1_1@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
>
>  wrote in message 
> news:29030e88-7fff-4dbb-bb45-217c2c299095@b64g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> On May 2, 1:43 pm, John Brockbank 
> wrote:
>> On 30 Apr, 19:51, DaveInLakeVi...@webtv.net (Dave in Lake Villa)
>> > REPLY: Miracles are a given reality ; unless you dont think a
>> > personal/intelligent Universe that requires 250 scientifically 
>> > confirmed
>> > razor edge precise Physics Constants , all needed simultaneously and 
>> > all
>> > working in unison, so the Universe can be here, be sustained, so earth
>> > can be here so we can be alive on it.... isnt a miracle (??) . Miracles
>> > ARE rational because the greatest one has already took place and a
>
>> Blimey! A Christian who does not know what a miracle is. I tell you
>> mate it does not mean something improbable.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> <<REPLY: DaveinLakeVilla and this addy, are the <<same person.  I know
> <<what a miracle is, and just gave it to you <<above.  Now its up to YOU
> to realize that miracles are possible and occur daily ,


> Your definition of a miracle appears to ne something very improbable. 
> That is quite incorrect, at least that it not the usual meaning of the 
> word.


With the greatest of respect....
Trying to explain, or enter into either abstract or actual conversation with 
dilv is not going to engender any meaningful discussion....
You will, of course, receive an absolute - and re-iterated - agenda filled 
response that  will seek to discredit any intellectual or rational 
evaluation of the point in hand, insisting upon myopic and mindless 
regurgitation of fundamental religious values and ideas that are 
pre-disposed to exchanging ideas, notions or intellectual 
considerations.......
Namely, irrational assertions are stated,  to which rational responses are 
made.... leading to nonsensical assumptions that do not approach, or change, 
the rational of the *irrational*...
Put simply, dilv is incapable of rational or intellectual argument:  he is 
NOT representative of intellectual christians who can, and do, argue their 
*faith* coherently and is clearly a marginal opposite of atheists who need, 
and ought, to disregard such ridiculous positioning ...
Clearly,  he is not an intellectual giant and the attempts to position the 
absurdities of his mindnumbing convictions, into an arena of meaningful 
discussion and comprehension,  fail implicitily by his inability to consider 
intellectual argument...
Repeated, and endless, re-gurgitation of religious diatribe will not, and 
can not, promote genuine exchange of beliefs and values.
He is lost in a sea of  evidence, probability, contradiction  and 
intellectual consideration that destroys - although he cannot see it - 
argument for his creationary illusion.
If you wish discussion, good, genuine and intellectual discussion that is, 
try for example ukrc  (I know you are a visitor there...) where faith and 
belief and sky fairies are argued with some aplomb...... but dilv...  no... 
he's painfully and woefully out of range and depth...

Mark

X-No-Archive: yes

"mark"  wrote in message 
news:bJadnWYyP_mtYIHVnZ2dnUVZ8vqdnZ2d@bt.com...
> X-No-Archive: yes

>
> With the greatest of respect....
> Trying to explain, or enter into either abstract or actual conversation 
> with dilv is not going to engender any meaningful discussion....
> You will, of course, receive an absolute - and re-iterated - agenda filled 
> response that  will seek to discredit any intellectual or rational 
> evaluation of the point in hand, insisting upon myopic and mindless 
> regurgitation of fundamental religious values and ideas that are

********not***** ( should have been.....)


> pre-disposed to exchanging ideas, notions or intellectual 
> considerations.......
> Namely, irrational assertions are stated,  to which rational responses are 
> made.... leading to nonsensical assumptions that do not approach, or 
> change, the rational of the *irrational*...
> Put simply, dilv is incapable of rational or intellectual argument:  he is 
> NOT representative of intellectual christians who can, and do, argue their 
> *faith* coherently and is clearly a marginal opposite of atheists who 
> need, and ought, to disregard such ridiculous positioning ...
> Clearly,  he is not an intellectual giant and the attempts to position the 
> absurdities of his mindnumbing convictions, into an arena of meaningful 
> discussion and comprehension,  fail implicitily by his inability to 
> consider intellectual argument...
> Repeated, and endless, re-gurgitation of religious diatribe will not, and 
> can not, promote genuine exchange of beliefs and values.
> He is lost in a sea of  evidence, probability, contradiction  and 
> intellectual consideration that destroys - although he cannot see it - 
> argument for his creationary illusion.
> If you wish discussion, good, genuine and intellectual discussion that is, 
> try for example ukrc  (I know you are a visitor there...) where faith and 
> belief and sky fairies are argued with some aplomb...... but dilv... 
> no... he's painfully and woefully out of range and depth...
>
> Mark
>
>
>