Hope this is the right group for this... I lost my job recently
(involuntary redundancy) and so I applied for jobseeker's allowance
last week. I was phoned on Thursday by my previous employer, who said
he'd got a form from the Jobcentre people, asking about the
circumstances of my dismissal (was it voluntary or involuntary). He
said he'd tick the "involuntary" box. Hurrah.

Given that he would not have had enough time to return the form by
Friday, I was surprised to receive a letter on Friday saying:


YOUR CLAIM FOR JOBSEEKER'S ALLOWANCE

We cannot pay you Jobseeker's Allowance from 12 June 2007.
We cannot pay you because the law says we cannot pay you.

We cannot pay you an allowance from 13 June 2007. This is because:
the law says we cannot pay you.


I'm fairly sure I should qualify for contributions based allowance:
can anyone tell me what the problem might be? Just curious to find out
before I phone them on Monday morning. Obviously, I don't want them to
break the law on my account ;) but saying "we can't pay you because
the law says we can't" is as much of an explanation as saying "we're
not going to pay you because we've decided not to."

Any insight into this lamentable piece of bureaucratese would be very
welcome.


--
James

On Sat, 23 Jun 2007 10:41:25 -0700, James wrote:

> Any insight into this lamentable piece of bureaucratese would be very
> welcome.

See:

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/life/employment/dismissal_and_benefits.htm

On Jun 23, 6:41 pm, James  wrote:
> Hope this is the right group for this... I lost my job recently
> (involuntary redundancy) and so I applied for jobseeker's allowance
> last week. I was phoned on Thursday by my previous employer, who said
> he'd got a form from the Jobcentre people, asking about the
> circumstances of my dismissal (was it voluntary or involuntary). He
> said he'd tick the "involuntary" box. Hurrah.
>
> Given that he would not have had enough time to return the form by
> Friday, I was surprised to receive a letter on Friday saying:
>
> YOUR CLAIM FOR JOBSEEKER'S ALLOWANCE
>
> We cannot pay you Jobseeker's Allowance from 12 June 2007.
> We cannot pay you because the law says we cannot pay you.
>
> We cannot pay you an allowance from 13 June 2007. This is because:
> the law says we cannot pay you.
>
> I'm fairly sure I should qualify for contributions based allowance:
> can anyone tell me what the problem might be? Just curious to find out
> before I phone them on Monday morning. Obviously, I don't want them to
> break the law on my account ;) but saying "we can't pay you because
> the law says we can't" is as much of an explanation as saying "we're
> not going to pay you because we've decided not to."
>
> Any insight into this lamentable piece of bureaucratese would be very
> welcome.
>
> --
> James

Sounds like a piss poor computer generated letter alright.  I doubt it
was anything to do with the reasons for leaving last job (confusing
though they are!), as you say the form could not have arrived in
time.  Assuming you've signed a jobseekers agreement and remembered to
sign on I think it's a safe bet that your contribution record shows
you've not paid enough NI.

If this is confirmed by the jobcentre you can compare the NI records
they hold against your 04/05 + 05/06 P60s and P45s if you've had more
than one job (end of year P60s only show current employment).  If they
differ than the jobcentre will need to look into it.

You described your leaving as involuntary redundancy but your employer
ticked the box to say it was involutary dismissal, even if your sort
out the NI you may find your benefit sanctioned (stopped).

Mike

ps I have assumed you signed on this year, if not these will be the
wrong tax years

On 23 Jun, 19:17, Mike 
wrote:

> You described your leaving as involuntary redundancy but your employer
> ticked the box to say it was involutary dismissal, even if your sort
> out the NI you may find your benefit sanctioned (stopped).

Thanks for the advice. AFAICT, the NI should have been paid since I've
been in continuous employment for 3 years, so it was taken out of my
wages. The only slight problem might have been for a year before that,
where I was semi-self-employed for a year (business was patchy) so
that might have affected what I paid. But from what I remember, I kept
up payments in any case.

The circumstances of the "dismissal" are a bit difficult to pin down.
Basically, I was hired for a job below my skill level and as far as
I'm concerned I was lied to at the interview. Just looked at the link
posted by Robin Cox, and I might see if I can pursue a claim for
unfair dismissal. There was no misconduct, just "sorry, old chap,
looks like this isn't the right job for you, so you'll have to leave."
I would have preferred to stay, so it's not voluntary, but equally
there was no misconduct per se.

--
James

"James"  wrote in message
news:1182620485.441851.249900@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...

> Hope this is the right group for this... I lost my job recently
> (involuntary redundancy) and so I applied for jobseeker's allowance
> last week. I was phoned on Thursday by my previous employer, who said
> he'd got a form from the Jobcentre people, asking about the
> circumstances of my dismissal (was it voluntary or involuntary). He
> said he'd tick the "involuntary" box. Hurrah.
>
> Given that he would not have had enough time to return the form by
> Friday, I was surprised to receive a letter on Friday saying:
>
>
> YOUR CLAIM FOR JOBSEEKER'S ALLOWANCE
>
> We cannot pay you Jobseeker's Allowance from 12 June 2007.
> We cannot pay you because the law says we cannot pay you.
>
> We cannot pay you an allowance from 13 June 2007. This is because:
> the law says we cannot pay you.
>
>
> I'm fairly sure I should qualify for contributions based allowance:
> can anyone tell me what the problem might be? Just curious to find out
> before I phone them on Monday morning.

....

If they haven't yet recieved the form back from your employer
confirming your redundancy was involuntary - which as you say they
won't have done - then an automatic letter has been generated,
explaining that you're not eligible for JSA.

Once they've recieved that confirmation then you will be eligible.

These computer generated letters are probably produced
automatically so as to enable them to meet certain targets
in respect of informing claimants of decisions within a certain
number of days. Regardless of whether they're correct or not.

If you phone on Monday before they've recieved the form back
then they'll probably tell you the same thing over the
phone. Until they recieve confirmation from your former
employer, then their hands are tied. As they can't pay
JSA stright off, where redundancy is voluntary.

Give them enough time to have recieve the form back, say Wednesday
or Thursday and phone them then. Assuming everything else is O.K
then your JSA will be backdated to the first day of your claim.


biblios

--


> Obviously, I don't want them to
> break the law on my account ;) but saying "we can't pay you because
> the law says we can't" is as much of an explanation as saying "we're
> not going to pay you because we've decided not to."
>
> Any insight into this lamentable piece of bureaucratese would be very
> welcome.
>
>
> --
> James










>

On Sat, 23 Jun 2007 11:36:59 -0700, James 
wrote:

>On 23 Jun, 19:17, Mike 
>wrote:
>
>> You described your leaving as involuntary redundancy but your employer
>> ticked the box to say it was involutary dismissal, even if your sort
>> out the NI you may find your benefit sanctioned (stopped).
>
>Thanks for the advice. AFAICT, the NI should have been paid since I've
>been in continuous employment for 3 years, so it was taken out of my
>wages. The only slight problem might have been for a year before that,

I have heard of companies not having paid the NI they said they have.
Collect your payslips etc as evidence of having paid it.

>where I was semi-self-employed for a year (business was patchy) so
>that might have affected what I paid. But from what I remember, I kept
>up payments in any case.
>
>The circumstances of the "dismissal" are a bit difficult to pin down.
>Basically, I was hired for a job below my skill level and as far as
>I'm concerned I was lied to at the interview. Just looked at the link
>posted by Robin Cox, and I might see if I can pursue a claim for
>unfair dismissal. There was no misconduct, just "sorry, old chap,
>looks like this isn't the right job for you, so you'll have to leave."
>I would have preferred to stay, so it's not voluntary, but equally
>there was no misconduct per se.
-- 
http://www.orderonlinepickupinstore.co.uk
Ah fetch it yourself if you can't wait for delivery
http://www.freedeliveryuk.co.uk
Or get it delivered for free

On Jun 23, 10:07 pm, "biblios"  wrote:
> "James"  wrote in message
>
> news:1182620485.441851.249900@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Hope this is the right group for this... I lost my job recently
> > (involuntary redundancy) and so I applied for jobseeker's allowance
> > last week. I was phoned on Thursday by my previous employer, who said
> > he'd got a form from the Jobcentre people, asking about the
> > circumstances of my dismissal (was it voluntary or involuntary). He
> > said he'd tick the "involuntary" box. Hurrah.
>
> > Given that he would not have had enough time to return the form by
> > Friday, I was surprised to receive a letter on Friday saying:
>
> > YOUR CLAIM FOR JOBSEEKER'S ALLOWANCE
>
> > We cannot pay you Jobseeker's Allowance from 12 June 2007.
> > We cannot pay you because the law says we cannot pay you.
>
> > We cannot pay you an allowance from 13 June 2007. This is because:
> > the law says we cannot pay you.
>
> > I'm fairly sure I should qualify for contributions based allowance:
> > can anyone tell me what the problem might be? Just curious to find out
> > before I phone them on Monday morning.
>
> ...
>
> If they haven't yet recieved the form back from your employer
> confirming your redundancy was involuntary - which as you say they
> won't have done - then an automatic letter has been generated,
> explaining that you're not eligible for JSA.
>
> Once they've recieved that confirmation then you will be eligible.
>
> These computer generated letters are probably produced
> automatically so as to enable them to meet certain targets
> in respect of informing claimants of decisions within a certain
> number of days. Regardless of whether they're correct or not.
>
> If you phone on Monday before they've recieved the form back
> then they'll probably tell you the same thing over the
> phone. Until they recieve confirmation from your former
> employer, then their hands are tied. As they can't pay
> JSA stright off, where redundancy is voluntary.
>
> Give them enough time to have recieve the form back, say Wednesday
> or Thursday and phone them then. Assuming everything else is O.K
> then your JSA will be backdated to the first day of your claim.
>
> biblios

I doubt it's anything to do with the circumstances around leaving his
last job.  The form from prev emp was in the post and unless the OP
has said he left volumntarily the JC wouldn't consider a suspension
and even then it's very unlikely.  99% of the time they wait for the
form and act on that.

Mike

> If they haven't yet recieved the form back from your employer
> confirming your redundancy was involuntary - which as you say they
> won't have done - then an automatic letter has been generated,
> explaining that you're not eligible for JSA.
>
> Once they've recieved that confirmation then you will be eligible.

Hoped it might be something like that :) Shades of Franz Kafka, being
"refused" but not able to be told why. I'll phone them tomorrow just
because I need a laugh, and I'll remember to try again later in the
week.

Thanks for the advice, and thanks to others who responded as well.

--
James

On Jun 24, 7:56 pm, James  wrote:
> > If they haven't yet recieved the form back from your employer
> > confirming your redundancy was involuntary - which as you say they
> > won't have done - then an automatic letter has been generated,
> > explaining that you're not eligible for JSA.
>
> > Once they've recieved that confirmation then you will be eligible.
>
> Hoped it might be something like that :) Shades of Franz Kafka, being
> "refused" but not able to be told why. I'll phone them tomorrow just
> because I need a laugh, and I'll remember to try again later in the
> week.
>
> Thanks for the advice, and thanks to others who responded as well.
>
> --
> James

Very strange sense of humour ....  Never ever ring the DWP on a monday
unless you really really have too.  In my office the waiting times are
twice as long.

This goes the same for any phone based organisation that shuts for
most of the weekend for obvious reasons.

Mike

"Mike"  wrote in message 
news:1182713751.650230.134670@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 24, 7:56 pm, James  wrote:
>> > If they haven't yet recieved the form back from your employer
>> > confirming your redundancy was involuntary - which as you say they
>> > won't have done - then an automatic letter has been generated,
>> > explaining that you're not eligible for JSA.
>>
>> > Once they've recieved that confirmation then you will be eligible.
>>
>> Hoped it might be something like that :) Shades of Franz Kafka, being
>> "refused" but not able to be told why. I'll phone them tomorrow just
>> because I need a laugh, and I'll remember to try again later in the
>> week.
>>
>> Thanks for the advice, and thanks to others who responded as well.
>>
>> --
>> James
>
> Very strange sense of humour ....  Never ever ring the DWP on a monday
> unless you really really have too.  In my office the waiting times are
> twice as long.
>
> This goes the same for any phone based organisation that shuts for
> most of the weekend for obvious reasons.
>
> Mike
>
When I worked on a telephone team I always advised people to ring as soon as 
the office opened or after 3.30pm. Our phone section was never very busy at 
these times. Mind you, now the section has been disbanded and the calls are 
now taken by the area BDC, I'm not sure if this still applies!

As for the reason why James has been disallowed JSA, it could be for many 
reasons. It is highly doubtful if it's anything to do with the reasons why 
his last job ended at this time as the letter would have told him so. When a 
claim is shut down, a numerical code is input to tell the computer why it 
has been closed (ie, found work, claimed other benefit, gone abroad, failed 
to attend etc). If a code for 'other reason' has been input, this sometimes 
generates a letter with similar wording as was mentioned. If this has 
happened he needs to talk to the office and ask for an explanation. The 
processor should have put a note on the computer to state why this code was 
used.

Netty

On Jun 24, 9:15 pm, "Netty" <netty@???.hello.com> wrote:
> "Mike"  wrote in message
>
> news:1182713751.650230.134670@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Jun 24, 7:56 pm, James  wrote:
> >> > If they haven't yet recieved the form back from your employer
> >> > confirming your redundancy was involuntary - which as you say they
> >> > won't have done - then an automatic letter has been generated,
> >> > explaining that you're not eligible for JSA.
>
> >> > Once they've recieved that confirmation then you will be eligible.
>
> >> Hoped it might be something like that :) Shades of Franz Kafka, being
> >> "refused" but not able to be told why. I'll phone them tomorrow just
> >> because I need a laugh, and I'll remember to try again later in the
> >> week.
>
> >> Thanks for the advice, and thanks to others who responded as well.
>
> >> --
> >> James
>
> > Very strange sense of humour ....  Never ever ring the DWP on a monday
> > unless you really really have too.  In my office the waiting times are
> > twice as long.
>
> > This goes the same for any phone based organisation that shuts for
> > most of the weekend for obvious reasons.
>
> > Mike
>
> When I worked on a telephone team I always advised people to ring as soon as
> the office opened or after 3.30pm. Our phone section was never very busy at
> these times. Mind you, now the section has been disbanded and the calls are
> now taken by the area BDC, I'm not sure if this still applies!
>
> As for the reason why James has been disallowed JSA, it could be for many
> reasons. It is highly doubtful if it's anything to do with the reasons why
> his last job ended at this time as the letter would have told him so. When a
> claim is shut down, a numerical code is input to tell the computer why it
> has been closed (ie, found work, claimed other benefit, gone abroad, failed
> to attend etc). If a code for 'other reason' has been input, this sometimes
> generates a letter with similar wording as was mentioned. If this has
> happened he needs to talk to the office and ask for an explanation. The
> processor should have put a note on the computer to state why this code was
> used.
>
> Netty- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I understand that many of the BDC are constantly busy, low pay, crap
job unsupportive management, ergo people leave in droves.
I know the DWP spent a long time working on the system notifications
whicha re basically paragraphs selcted based on the decision, as such
I would have expected something to say why he couldn't be paid.
However if an system upgrade has been implemented it can sometimes
cock up the 'assembly' of notifications.  In recent years I've seen
the ISCS notifications cocked up so badly partners have been added and
even combined benefits added twice.  Usually follows some seemingly
unrelated ISCS release.
As JSAPs assembles notications in much the same way similar problems
can occur.

Mike

Turns out there were two claims in progress: one for contributions-
based and the other for income-based. The latter was denied in the
letter last week, although I wasn't even aware such a claim had been
put in. The other one should be approved this week. Person in local
JobCentre very helpful and gave me a form to lodge a complaint, for
all the good it will do...

--
James

[Default] On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 12:08:15 -0700, James
 did write:

>Turns out there were two claims in progress: one for contributions-
>based and the other for income-based. The latter was denied in the
>letter last week, although I wasn't even aware such a claim had been
>put in. The other one should be approved this week. Person in local
>JobCentre very helpful and gave me a form to lodge a complaint, for
>all the good it will do...

James, take it from me all formal complaints are dealt with in a very
specific manner. (No - not file 13 or the round bin.) In fact - the
complaints that people do take the time to make actually help, in some
cases, to identify areas that need looking at. 

Unless the department receives feedback about itself and its services
how would it know if something was wrong? As they say - no news is
good news - so get that form filled and sent in asap. And if you're
not satisfied with the reply then you have every right to take the
matter further.
-- 
I’m not prejudiced; I dislike everyone equally.

You're right, of course :) Too easy to be cynical when faced with what
*looks* like a vast, sinister machine...

My last experience of signing on was about 20 years ago -- mercifully
it didn't last long and I hope it won't this time either. Back then,
it seemed the DSS's opening gambit was always "you're not entitled to
anything sonny," regardless of the merits of the claim. This letter
seemed to have shades of that attitude in it, so I suppose that's why
it annoyed me more than it might.

People at the JobCentre itself were very helpful though.

--
James

On Sat, 23 Jun 2007 10:41:25 -0700, James wrote:

> Any insight into this lamentable piece of bureaucratese would be very
> welcome.

See:

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/life/employment/dismissal_and_benefits.htm

On Jun 23, 6:41 pm, James  wrote:
> Hope this is the right group for this... I lost my job recently
> (involuntary redundancy) and so I applied for jobseeker's allowance
> last week. I was phoned on Thursday by my previous employer, who said
> he'd got a form from the Jobcentre people, asking about the
> circumstances of my dismissal (was it voluntary or involuntary). He
> said he'd tick the "involuntary" box. Hurrah.
>
> Given that he would not have had enough time to return the form by
> Friday, I was surprised to receive a letter on Friday saying:
>
> YOUR CLAIM FOR JOBSEEKER'S ALLOWANCE
>
> We cannot pay you Jobseeker's Allowance from 12 June 2007.
> We cannot pay you because the law says we cannot pay you.
>
> We cannot pay you an allowance from 13 June 2007. This is because:
> the law says we cannot pay you.
>
> I'm fairly sure I should qualify for contributions based allowance:
> can anyone tell me what the problem might be? Just curious to find out
> before I phone them on Monday morning. Obviously, I don't want them to
> break the law on my account ;) but saying "we can't pay you because
> the law says we can't" is as much of an explanation as saying "we're
> not going to pay you because we've decided not to."
>
> Any insight into this lamentable piece of bureaucratese would be very
> welcome.
>
> --
> James

Sounds like a piss poor computer generated letter alright.  I doubt it
was anything to do with the reasons for leaving last job (confusing
though they are!), as you say the form could not have arrived in
time.  Assuming you've signed a jobseekers agreement and remembered to
sign on I think it's a safe bet that your contribution record shows
you've not paid enough NI.

If this is confirmed by the jobcentre you can compare the NI records
they hold against your 04/05 + 05/06 P60s and P45s if you've had more
than one job (end of year P60s only show current employment).  If they
differ than the jobcentre will need to look into it.

You described your leaving as involuntary redundancy but your employer
ticked the box to say it was involutary dismissal, even if your sort
out the NI you may find your benefit sanctioned (stopped).

Mike

ps I have assumed you signed on this year, if not these will be the
wrong tax years

On 23 Jun, 19:17, Mike 
wrote:

> You described your leaving as involuntary redundancy but your employer
> ticked the box to say it was involutary dismissal, even if your sort
> out the NI you may find your benefit sanctioned (stopped).

Thanks for the advice. AFAICT, the NI should have been paid since I've
been in continuous employment for 3 years, so it was taken out of my
wages. The only slight problem might have been for a year before that,
where I was semi-self-employed for a year (business was patchy) so
that might have affected what I paid. But from what I remember, I kept
up payments in any case.

The circumstances of the "dismissal" are a bit difficult to pin down.
Basically, I was hired for a job below my skill level and as far as
I'm concerned I was lied to at the interview. Just looked at the link
posted by Robin Cox, and I might see if I can pursue a claim for
unfair dismissal. There was no misconduct, just "sorry, old chap,
looks like this isn't the right job for you, so you'll have to leave."
I would have preferred to stay, so it's not voluntary, but equally
there was no misconduct per se.

--
James

"James"  wrote in message
news:1182620485.441851.249900@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...

> Hope this is the right group for this... I lost my job recently
> (involuntary redundancy) and so I applied for jobseeker's allowance
> last week. I was phoned on Thursday by my previous employer, who said
> he'd got a form from the Jobcentre people, asking about the
> circumstances of my dismissal (was it voluntary or involuntary). He
> said he'd tick the "involuntary" box. Hurrah.
>
> Given that he would not have had enough time to return the form by
> Friday, I was surprised to receive a letter on Friday saying:
>
>
> YOUR CLAIM FOR JOBSEEKER'S ALLOWANCE
>
> We cannot pay you Jobseeker's Allowance from 12 June 2007.
> We cannot pay you because the law says we cannot pay you.
>
> We cannot pay you an allowance from 13 June 2007. This is because:
> the law says we cannot pay you.
>
>
> I'm fairly sure I should qualify for contributions based allowance:
> can anyone tell me what the problem might be? Just curious to find out
> before I phone them on Monday morning.

....

If they haven't yet recieved the form back from your employer
confirming your redundancy was involuntary - which as you say they
won't have done - then an automatic letter has been generated,
explaining that you're not eligible for JSA.

Once they've recieved that confirmation then you will be eligible.

These computer generated letters are probably produced
automatically so as to enable them to meet certain targets
in respect of informing claimants of decisions within a certain
number of days. Regardless of whether they're correct or not.

If you phone on Monday before they've recieved the form back
then they'll probably tell you the same thing over the
phone. Until they recieve confirmation from your former
employer, then their hands are tied. As they can't pay
JSA stright off, where redundancy is voluntary.

Give them enough time to have recieve the form back, say Wednesday
or Thursday and phone them then. Assuming everything else is O.K
then your JSA will be backdated to the first day of your claim.


biblios

--


> Obviously, I don't want them to
> break the law on my account ;) but saying "we can't pay you because
> the law says we can't" is as much of an explanation as saying "we're
> not going to pay you because we've decided not to."
>
> Any insight into this lamentable piece of bureaucratese would be very
> welcome.
>
>
> --
> James










>

On Sat, 23 Jun 2007 11:36:59 -0700, James 
wrote:

>On 23 Jun, 19:17, Mike 
>wrote:
>
>> You described your leaving as involuntary redundancy but your employer
>> ticked the box to say it was involutary dismissal, even if your sort
>> out the NI you may find your benefit sanctioned (stopped).
>
>Thanks for the advice. AFAICT, the NI should have been paid since I've
>been in continuous employment for 3 years, so it was taken out of my
>wages. The only slight problem might have been for a year before that,

I have heard of companies not having paid the NI they said they have.
Collect your payslips etc as evidence of having paid it.

>where I was semi-self-employed for a year (business was patchy) so
>that might have affected what I paid. But from what I remember, I kept
>up payments in any case.
>
>The circumstances of the "dismissal" are a bit difficult to pin down.
>Basically, I was hired for a job below my skill level and as far as
>I'm concerned I was lied to at the interview. Just looked at the link
>posted by Robin Cox, and I might see if I can pursue a claim for
>unfair dismissal. There was no misconduct, just "sorry, old chap,
>looks like this isn't the right job for you, so you'll have to leave."
>I would have preferred to stay, so it's not voluntary, but equally
>there was no misconduct per se.
-- 
http://www.orderonlinepickupinstore.co.uk
Ah fetch it yourself if you can't wait for delivery
http://www.freedeliveryuk.co.uk
Or get it delivered for free

On Jun 23, 10:07 pm, "biblios"  wrote:
> "James"  wrote in message
>
> news:1182620485.441851.249900@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Hope this is the right group for this... I lost my job recently
> > (involuntary redundancy) and so I applied for jobseeker's allowance
> > last week. I was phoned on Thursday by my previous employer, who said
> > he'd got a form from the Jobcentre people, asking about the
> > circumstances of my dismissal (was it voluntary or involuntary). He
> > said he'd tick the "involuntary" box. Hurrah.
>
> > Given that he would not have had enough time to return the form by
> > Friday, I was surprised to receive a letter on Friday saying:
>
> > YOUR CLAIM FOR JOBSEEKER'S ALLOWANCE
>
> > We cannot pay you Jobseeker's Allowance from 12 June 2007.
> > We cannot pay you because the law says we cannot pay you.
>
> > We cannot pay you an allowance from 13 June 2007. This is because:
> > the law says we cannot pay you.
>
> > I'm fairly sure I should qualify for contributions based allowance:
> > can anyone tell me what the problem might be? Just curious to find out
> > before I phone them on Monday morning.
>
> ...
>
> If they haven't yet recieved the form back from your employer
> confirming your redundancy was involuntary - which as you say they
> won't have done - then an automatic letter has been generated,
> explaining that you're not eligible for JSA.
>
> Once they've recieved that confirmation then you will be eligible.
>
> These computer generated letters are probably produced
> automatically so as to enable them to meet certain targets
> in respect of informing claimants of decisions within a certain
> number of days. Regardless of whether they're correct or not.
>
> If you phone on Monday before they've recieved the form back
> then they'll probably tell you the same thing over the
> phone. Until they recieve confirmation from your former
> employer, then their hands are tied. As they can't pay
> JSA stright off, where redundancy is voluntary.
>
> Give them enough time to have recieve the form back, say Wednesday
> or Thursday and phone them then. Assuming everything else is O.K
> then your JSA will be backdated to the first day of your claim.
>
> biblios

I doubt it's anything to do with the circumstances around leaving his
last job.  The form from prev emp was in the post and unless the OP
has said he left volumntarily the JC wouldn't consider a suspension
and even then it's very unlikely.  99% of the time they wait for the
form and act on that.

Mike

> If they haven't yet recieved the form back from your employer
> confirming your redundancy was involuntary - which as you say they
> won't have done - then an automatic letter has been generated,
> explaining that you're not eligible for JSA.
>
> Once they've recieved that confirmation then you will be eligible.

Hoped it might be something like that :) Shades of Franz Kafka, being
"refused" but not able to be told why. I'll phone them tomorrow just
because I need a laugh, and I'll remember to try again later in the
week.

Thanks for the advice, and thanks to others who responded as well.

--
James

On Jun 24, 7:56 pm, James  wrote:
> > If they haven't yet recieved the form back from your employer
> > confirming your redundancy was involuntary - which as you say they
> > won't have done - then an automatic letter has been generated,
> > explaining that you're not eligible for JSA.
>
> > Once they've recieved that confirmation then you will be eligible.
>
> Hoped it might be something like that :) Shades of Franz Kafka, being
> "refused" but not able to be told why. I'll phone them tomorrow just
> because I need a laugh, and I'll remember to try again later in the
> week.
>
> Thanks for the advice, and thanks to others who responded as well.
>
> --
> James

Very strange sense of humour ....  Never ever ring the DWP on a monday
unless you really really have too.  In my office the waiting times are
twice as long.

This goes the same for any phone based organisation that shuts for
most of the weekend for obvious reasons.

Mike

"Mike"  wrote in message 
news:1182713751.650230.134670@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 24, 7:56 pm, James  wrote:
>> > If they haven't yet recieved the form back from your employer
>> > confirming your redundancy was involuntary - which as you say they
>> > won't have done - then an automatic letter has been generated,
>> > explaining that you're not eligible for JSA.
>>
>> > Once they've recieved that confirmation then you will be eligible.
>>
>> Hoped it might be something like that :) Shades of Franz Kafka, being
>> "refused" but not able to be told why. I'll phone them tomorrow just
>> because I need a laugh, and I'll remember to try again later in the
>> week.
>>
>> Thanks for the advice, and thanks to others who responded as well.
>>
>> --
>> James
>
> Very strange sense of humour ....  Never ever ring the DWP on a monday
> unless you really really have too.  In my office the waiting times are
> twice as long.
>
> This goes the same for any phone based organisation that shuts for
> most of the weekend for obvious reasons.
>
> Mike
>
When I worked on a telephone team I always advised people to ring as soon as 
the office opened or after 3.30pm. Our phone section was never very busy at 
these times. Mind you, now the section has been disbanded and the calls are 
now taken by the area BDC, I'm not sure if this still applies!

As for the reason why James has been disallowed JSA, it could be for many 
reasons. It is highly doubtful if it's anything to do with the reasons why 
his last job ended at this time as the letter would have told him so. When a 
claim is shut down, a numerical code is input to tell the computer why it 
has been closed (ie, found work, claimed other benefit, gone abroad, failed 
to attend etc). If a code for 'other reason' has been input, this sometimes 
generates a letter with similar wording as was mentioned. If this has 
happened he needs to talk to the office and ask for an explanation. The 
processor should have put a note on the computer to state why this code was 
used.

Netty

On Jun 24, 9:15 pm, "Netty" <netty@???.hello.com> wrote:
> "Mike"  wrote in message
>
> news:1182713751.650230.134670@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Jun 24, 7:56 pm, James  wrote:
> >> > If they haven't yet recieved the form back from your employer
> >> > confirming your redundancy was involuntary - which as you say they
> >> > won't have done - then an automatic letter has been generated,
> >> > explaining that you're not eligible for JSA.
>
> >> > Once they've recieved that confirmation then you will be eligible.
>
> >> Hoped it might be something like that :) Shades of Franz Kafka, being
> >> "refused" but not able to be told why. I'll phone them tomorrow just
> >> because I need a laugh, and I'll remember to try again later in the
> >> week.
>
> >> Thanks for the advice, and thanks to others who responded as well.
>
> >> --
> >> James
>
> > Very strange sense of humour ....  Never ever ring the DWP on a monday
> > unless you really really have too.  In my office the waiting times are
> > twice as long.
>
> > This goes the same for any phone based organisation that shuts for
> > most of the weekend for obvious reasons.
>
> > Mike
>
> When I worked on a telephone team I always advised people to ring as soon as
> the office opened or after 3.30pm. Our phone section was never very busy at
> these times. Mind you, now the section has been disbanded and the calls are
> now taken by the area BDC, I'm not sure if this still applies!
>
> As for the reason why James has been disallowed JSA, it could be for many
> reasons. It is highly doubtful if it's anything to do with the reasons why
> his last job ended at this time as the letter would have told him so. When a
> claim is shut down, a numerical code is input to tell the computer why it
> has been closed (ie, found work, claimed other benefit, gone abroad, failed
> to attend etc). If a code for 'other reason' has been input, this sometimes
> generates a letter with similar wording as was mentioned. If this has
> happened he needs to talk to the office and ask for an explanation. The
> processor should have put a note on the computer to state why this code was
> used.
>
> Netty- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I understand that many of the BDC are constantly busy, low pay, crap
job unsupportive management, ergo people leave in droves.
I know the DWP spent a long time working on the system notifications
whicha re basically paragraphs selcted based on the decision, as such
I would have expected something to say why he couldn't be paid.
However if an system upgrade has been implemented it can sometimes
cock up the 'assembly' of notifications.  In recent years I've seen
the ISCS notifications cocked up so badly partners have been added and
even combined benefits added twice.  Usually follows some seemingly
unrelated ISCS release.
As JSAPs assembles notications in much the same way similar problems
can occur.

Mike

Turns out there were two claims in progress: one for contributions-
based and the other for income-based. The latter was denied in the
letter last week, although I wasn't even aware such a claim had been
put in. The other one should be approved this week. Person in local
JobCentre very helpful and gave me a form to lodge a complaint, for
all the good it will do...

--
James

[Default] On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 12:08:15 -0700, James
 did write:

>Turns out there were two claims in progress: one for contributions-
>based and the other for income-based. The latter was denied in the
>letter last week, although I wasn't even aware such a claim had been
>put in. The other one should be approved this week. Person in local
>JobCentre very helpful and gave me a form to lodge a complaint, for
>all the good it will do...

James, take it from me all formal complaints are dealt with in a very
specific manner. (No - not file 13 or the round bin.) In fact - the
complaints that people do take the time to make actually help, in some
cases, to identify areas that need looking at. 

Unless the department receives feedback about itself and its services
how would it know if something was wrong? As they say - no news is
good news - so get that form filled and sent in asap. And if you're
not satisfied with the reply then you have every right to take the
matter further.
-- 
I’m not prejudiced; I dislike everyone equally.

You're right, of course :) Too easy to be cynical when faced with what
*looks* like a vast, sinister machine...

My last experience of signing on was about 20 years ago -- mercifully
it didn't last long and I hope it won't this time either. Back then,
it seemed the DSS's opening gambit was always "you're not entitled to
anything sonny," regardless of the merits of the claim. This letter
seemed to have shades of that attitude in it, so I suppose that's why
it annoyed me more than it might.

People at the JobCentre itself were very helpful though.

--
James

On Sat, 23 Jun 2007 10:41:25 -0700, James wrote:

> Any insight into this lamentable piece of bureaucratese would be very
> welcome.

See:

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/life/employment/dismissal_and_benefits.htm

On Jun 23, 6:41 pm, James  wrote:
> Hope this is the right group for this... I lost my job recently
> (involuntary redundancy) and so I applied for jobseeker's allowance
> last week. I was phoned on Thursday by my previous employer, who said
> he'd got a form from the Jobcentre people, asking about the
> circumstances of my dismissal (was it voluntary or involuntary). He
> said he'd tick the "involuntary" box. Hurrah.
>
> Given that he would not have had enough time to return the form by
> Friday, I was surprised to receive a letter on Friday saying:
>
> YOUR CLAIM FOR JOBSEEKER'S ALLOWANCE
>
> We cannot pay you Jobseeker's Allowance from 12 June 2007.
> We cannot pay you because the law says we cannot pay you.
>
> We cannot pay you an allowance from 13 June 2007. This is because:
> the law says we cannot pay you.
>
> I'm fairly sure I should qualify for contributions based allowance:
> can anyone tell me what the problem might be? Just curious to find out
> before I phone them on Monday morning. Obviously, I don't want them to
> break the law on my account ;) but saying "we can't pay you because
> the law says we can't" is as much of an explanation as saying "we're
> not going to pay you because we've decided not to."
>
> Any insight into this lamentable piece of bureaucratese would be very
> welcome.
>
> --
> James

Sounds like a piss poor computer generated letter alright.  I doubt it
was anything to do with the reasons for leaving last job (confusing
though they are!), as you say the form could not have arrived in
time.  Assuming you've signed a jobseekers agreement and remembered to
sign on I think it's a safe bet that your contribution record shows
you've not paid enough NI.

If this is confirmed by the jobcentre you can compare the NI records
they hold against your 04/05 + 05/06 P60s and P45s if you've had more
than one job (end of year P60s only show current employment).  If they
differ than the jobcentre will need to look into it.

You described your leaving as involuntary redundancy but your employer
ticked the box to say it was involutary dismissal, even if your sort
out the NI you may find your benefit sanctioned (stopped).

Mike

ps I have assumed you signed on this year, if not these will be the
wrong tax years

On 23 Jun, 19:17, Mike 
wrote:

> You described your leaving as involuntary redundancy but your employer
> ticked the box to say it was involutary dismissal, even if your sort
> out the NI you may find your benefit sanctioned (stopped).

Thanks for the advice. AFAICT, the NI should have been paid since I've
been in continuous employment for 3 years, so it was taken out of my
wages. The only slight problem might have been for a year before that,
where I was semi-self-employed for a year (business was patchy) so
that might have affected what I paid. But from what I remember, I kept
up payments in any case.

The circumstances of the "dismissal" are a bit difficult to pin down.
Basically, I was hired for a job below my skill level and as far as
I'm concerned I was lied to at the interview. Just looked at the link
posted by Robin Cox, and I might see if I can pursue a claim for
unfair dismissal. There was no misconduct, just "sorry, old chap,
looks like this isn't the right job for you, so you'll have to leave."
I would have preferred to stay, so it's not voluntary, but equally
there was no misconduct per se.

--
James

"James"  wrote in message
news:1182620485.441851.249900@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...

> Hope this is the right group for this... I lost my job recently
> (involuntary redundancy) and so I applied for jobseeker's allowance
> last week. I was phoned on Thursday by my previous employer, who said
> he'd got a form from the Jobcentre people, asking about the
> circumstances of my dismissal (was it voluntary or involuntary). He
> said he'd tick the "involuntary" box. Hurrah.
>
> Given that he would not have had enough time to return the form by
> Friday, I was surprised to receive a letter on Friday saying:
>
>
> YOUR CLAIM FOR JOBSEEKER'S ALLOWANCE
>
> We cannot pay you Jobseeker's Allowance from 12 June 2007.
> We cannot pay you because the law says we cannot pay you.
>
> We cannot pay you an allowance from 13 June 2007. This is because:
> the law says we cannot pay you.
>
>
> I'm fairly sure I should qualify for contributions based allowance:
> can anyone tell me what the problem might be? Just curious to find out
> before I phone them on Monday morning.

....

If they haven't yet recieved the form back from your employer
confirming your redundancy was involuntary - which as you say they
won't have done - then an automatic letter has been generated,
explaining that you're not eligible for JSA.

Once they've recieved that confirmation then you will be eligible.

These computer generated letters are probably produced
automatically so as to enable them to meet certain targets
in respect of informing claimants of decisions within a certain
number of days. Regardless of whether they're correct or not.

If you phone on Monday before they've recieved the form back
then they'll probably tell you the same thing over the
phone. Until they recieve confirmation from your former
employer, then their hands are tied. As they can't pay
JSA stright off, where redundancy is voluntary.

Give them enough time to have recieve the form back, say Wednesday
or Thursday and phone them then. Assuming everything else is O.K
then your JSA will be backdated to the first day of your claim.


biblios

--


> Obviously, I don't want them to
> break the law on my account ;) but saying "we can't pay you because
> the law says we can't" is as much of an explanation as saying "we're
> not going to pay you because we've decided not to."
>
> Any insight into this lamentable piece of bureaucratese would be very
> welcome.
>
>
> --
> James










>

On Sat, 23 Jun 2007 11:36:59 -0700, James 
wrote:

>On 23 Jun, 19:17, Mike 
>wrote:
>
>> You described your leaving as involuntary redundancy but your employer
>> ticked the box to say it was involutary dismissal, even if your sort
>> out the NI you may find your benefit sanctioned (stopped).
>
>Thanks for the advice. AFAICT, the NI should have been paid since I've
>been in continuous employment for 3 years, so it was taken out of my
>wages. The only slight problem might have been for a year before that,

I have heard of companies not having paid the NI they said they have.
Collect your payslips etc as evidence of having paid it.

>where I was semi-self-employed for a year (business was patchy) so
>that might have affected what I paid. But from what I remember, I kept
>up payments in any case.
>
>The circumstances of the "dismissal" are a bit difficult to pin down.
>Basically, I was hired for a job below my skill level and as far as
>I'm concerned I was lied to at the interview. Just looked at the link
>posted by Robin Cox, and I might see if I can pursue a claim for
>unfair dismissal. There was no misconduct, just "sorry, old chap,
>looks like this isn't the right job for you, so you'll have to leave."
>I would have preferred to stay, so it's not voluntary, but equally
>there was no misconduct per se.
-- 
http://www.orderonlinepickupinstore.co.uk
Ah fetch it yourself if you can't wait for delivery
http://www.freedeliveryuk.co.uk
Or get it delivered for free

On Jun 23, 10:07 pm, "biblios"  wrote:
> "James"  wrote in message
>
> news:1182620485.441851.249900@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Hope this is the right group for this... I lost my job recently
> > (involuntary redundancy) and so I applied for jobseeker's allowance
> > last week. I was phoned on Thursday by my previous employer, who said
> > he'd got a form from the Jobcentre people, asking about the
> > circumstances of my dismissal (was it voluntary or involuntary). He
> > said he'd tick the "involuntary" box. Hurrah.
>
> > Given that he would not have had enough time to return the form by
> > Friday, I was surprised to receive a letter on Friday saying:
>
> > YOUR CLAIM FOR JOBSEEKER'S ALLOWANCE
>
> > We cannot pay you Jobseeker's Allowance from 12 June 2007.
> > We cannot pay you because the law says we cannot pay you.
>
> > We cannot pay you an allowance from 13 June 2007. This is because:
> > the law says we cannot pay you.
>
> > I'm fairly sure I should qualify for contributions based allowance:
> > can anyone tell me what the problem might be? Just curious to find out
> > before I phone them on Monday morning.
>
> ...
>
> If they haven't yet recieved the form back from your employer
> confirming your redundancy was involuntary - which as you say they
> won't have done - then an automatic letter has been generated,
> explaining that you're not eligible for JSA.
>
> Once they've recieved that confirmation then you will be eligible.
>
> These computer generated letters are probably produced
> automatically so as to enable them to meet certain targets
> in respect of informing claimants of decisions within a certain
> number of days. Regardless of whether they're correct or not.
>
> If you phone on Monday before they've recieved the form back
> then they'll probably tell you the same thing over the
> phone. Until they recieve confirmation from your former
> employer, then their hands are tied. As they can't pay
> JSA stright off, where redundancy is voluntary.
>
> Give them enough time to have recieve the form back, say Wednesday
> or Thursday and phone them then. Assuming everything else is O.K
> then your JSA will be backdated to the first day of your claim.
>
> biblios

I doubt it's anything to do with the circumstances around leaving his
last job.  The form from prev emp was in the post and unless the OP
has said he left volumntarily the JC wouldn't consider a suspension
and even then it's very unlikely.  99% of the time they wait for the
form and act on that.

Mike

> If they haven't yet recieved the form back from your employer
> confirming your redundancy was involuntary - which as you say they
> won't have done - then an automatic letter has been generated,
> explaining that you're not eligible for JSA.
>
> Once they've recieved that confirmation then you will be eligible.

Hoped it might be something like that :) Shades of Franz Kafka, being
"refused" but not able to be told why. I'll phone them tomorrow just
because I need a laugh, and I'll remember to try again later in the
week.

Thanks for the advice, and thanks to others who responded as well.

--
James

On Jun 24, 7:56 pm, James  wrote:
> > If they haven't yet recieved the form back from your employer
> > confirming your redundancy was involuntary - which as you say they
> > won't have done - then an automatic letter has been generated,
> > explaining that you're not eligible for JSA.
>
> > Once they've recieved that confirmation then you will be eligible.
>
> Hoped it might be something like that :) Shades of Franz Kafka, being
> "refused" but not able to be told why. I'll phone them tomorrow just
> because I need a laugh, and I'll remember to try again later in the
> week.
>
> Thanks for the advice, and thanks to others who responded as well.
>
> --
> James

Very strange sense of humour ....  Never ever ring the DWP on a monday
unless you really really have too.  In my office the waiting times are
twice as long.

This goes the same for any phone based organisation that shuts for
most of the weekend for obvious reasons.

Mike

"Mike"  wrote in message 
news:1182713751.650230.134670@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 24, 7:56 pm, James  wrote:
>> > If they haven't yet recieved the form back from your employer
>> > confirming your redundancy was involuntary - which as you say they
>> > won't have done - then an automatic letter has been generated,
>> > explaining that you're not eligible for JSA.
>>
>> > Once they've recieved that confirmation then you will be eligible.
>>
>> Hoped it might be something like that :) Shades of Franz Kafka, being
>> "refused" but not able to be told why. I'll phone them tomorrow just
>> because I need a laugh, and I'll remember to try again later in the
>> week.
>>
>> Thanks for the advice, and thanks to others who responded as well.
>>
>> --
>> James
>
> Very strange sense of humour ....  Never ever ring the DWP on a monday
> unless you really really have too.  In my office the waiting times are
> twice as long.
>
> This goes the same for any phone based organisation that shuts for
> most of the weekend for obvious reasons.
>
> Mike
>
When I worked on a telephone team I always advised people to ring as soon as 
the office opened or after 3.30pm. Our phone section was never very busy at 
these times. Mind you, now the section has been disbanded and the calls are 
now taken by the area BDC, I'm not sure if this still applies!

As for the reason why James has been disallowed JSA, it could be for many 
reasons. It is highly doubtful if it's anything to do with the reasons why 
his last job ended at this time as the letter would have told him so. When a 
claim is shut down, a numerical code is input to tell the computer why it 
has been closed (ie, found work, claimed other benefit, gone abroad, failed 
to attend etc). If a code for 'other reason' has been input, this sometimes 
generates a letter with similar wording as was mentioned. If this has 
happened he needs to talk to the office and ask for an explanation. The 
processor should have put a note on the computer to state why this code was 
used.

Netty

On Jun 24, 9:15 pm, "Netty" <netty@???.hello.com> wrote:
> "Mike"  wrote in message
>
> news:1182713751.650230.134670@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Jun 24, 7:56 pm, James  wrote:
> >> > If they haven't yet recieved the form back from your employer
> >> > confirming your redundancy was involuntary - which as you say they
> >> > won't have done - then an automatic letter has been generated,
> >> > explaining that you're not eligible for JSA.
>
> >> > Once they've recieved that confirmation then you will be eligible.
>
> >> Hoped it might be something like that :) Shades of Franz Kafka, being
> >> "refused" but not able to be told why. I'll phone them tomorrow just
> >> because I need a laugh, and I'll remember to try again later in the
> >> week.
>
> >> Thanks for the advice, and thanks to others who responded as well.
>
> >> --
> >> James
>
> > Very strange sense of humour ....  Never ever ring the DWP on a monday
> > unless you really really have too.  In my office the waiting times are
> > twice as long.
>
> > This goes the same for any phone based organisation that shuts for
> > most of the weekend for obvious reasons.
>
> > Mike
>
> When I worked on a telephone team I always advised people to ring as soon as
> the office opened or after 3.30pm. Our phone section was never very busy at
> these times. Mind you, now the section has been disbanded and the calls are
> now taken by the area BDC, I'm not sure if this still applies!
>
> As for the reason why James has been disallowed JSA, it could be for many
> reasons. It is highly doubtful if it's anything to do with the reasons why
> his last job ended at this time as the letter would have told him so. When a
> claim is shut down, a numerical code is input to tell the computer why it
> has been closed (ie, found work, claimed other benefit, gone abroad, failed
> to attend etc). If a code for 'other reason' has been input, this sometimes
> generates a letter with similar wording as was mentioned. If this has
> happened he needs to talk to the office and ask for an explanation. The
> processor should have put a note on the computer to state why this code was
> used.
>
> Netty- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I understand that many of the BDC are constantly busy, low pay, crap
job unsupportive management, ergo people leave in droves.
I know the DWP spent a long time working on the system notifications
whicha re basically paragraphs selcted based on the decision, as such
I would have expected something to say why he couldn't be paid.
However if an system upgrade has been implemented it can sometimes
cock up the 'assembly' of notifications.  In recent years I've seen
the ISCS notifications cocked up so badly partners have been added and
even combined benefits added twice.  Usually follows some seemingly
unrelated ISCS release.
As JSAPs assembles notications in much the same way similar problems
can occur.

Mike

Turns out there were two claims in progress: one for contributions-
based and the other for income-based. The latter was denied in the
letter last week, although I wasn't even aware such a claim had been
put in. The other one should be approved this week. Person in local
JobCentre very helpful and gave me a form to lodge a complaint, for
all the good it will do...

--
James

[Default] On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 12:08:15 -0700, James
 did write:

>Turns out there were two claims in progress: one for contributions-
>based and the other for income-based. The latter was denied in the
>letter last week, although I wasn't even aware such a claim had been
>put in. The other one should be approved this week. Person in local
>JobCentre very helpful and gave me a form to lodge a complaint, for
>all the good it will do...

James, take it from me all formal complaints are dealt with in a very
specific manner. (No - not file 13 or the round bin.) In fact - the
complaints that people do take the time to make actually help, in some
cases, to identify areas that need looking at. 

Unless the department receives feedback about itself and its services
how would it know if something was wrong? As they say - no news is
good news - so get that form filled and sent in asap. And if you're
not satisfied with the reply then you have every right to take the
matter further.
-- 
I’m not prejudiced; I dislike everyone equally.

You're right, of course :) Too easy to be cynical when faced with what
*looks* like a vast, sinister machine...

My last experience of signing on was about 20 years ago -- mercifully
it didn't last long and I hope it won't this time either. Back then,
it seemed the DSS's opening gambit was always "you're not entitled to
anything sonny," regardless of the merits of the claim. This letter
seemed to have shades of that attitude in it, so I suppose that's why
it annoyed me more than it might.

People at the JobCentre itself were very helpful though.

--
James

On Sat, 23 Jun 2007 10:41:25 -0700, James wrote:

> Any insight into this lamentable piece of bureaucratese would be very
> welcome.

See:

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/life/employment/dismissal_and_benefits.htm

On Jun 23, 6:41 pm, James  wrote:
> Hope this is the right group for this... I lost my job recently
> (involuntary redundancy) and so I applied for jobseeker's allowance
> last week. I was phoned on Thursday by my previous employer, who said
> he'd got a form from the Jobcentre people, asking about the
> circumstances of my dismissal (was it voluntary or involuntary). He
> said he'd tick the "involuntary" box. Hurrah.
>
> Given that he would not have had enough time to return the form by
> Friday, I was surprised to receive a letter on Friday saying:
>
> YOUR CLAIM FOR JOBSEEKER'S ALLOWANCE
>
> We cannot pay you Jobseeker's Allowance from 12 June 2007.
> We cannot pay you because the law says we cannot pay you.
>
> We cannot pay you an allowance from 13 June 2007. This is because:
> the law says we cannot pay you.
>
> I'm fairly sure I should qualify for contributions based allowance:
> can anyone tell me what the problem might be? Just curious to find out
> before I phone them on Monday morning. Obviously, I don't want them to
> break the law on my account ;) but saying "we can't pay you because
> the law says we can't" is as much of an explanation as saying "we're
> not going to pay you because we've decided not to."
>
> Any insight into this lamentable piece of bureaucratese would be very
> welcome.
>
> --
> James

Sounds like a piss poor computer generated letter alright.  I doubt it
was anything to do with the reasons for leaving last job (confusing
though they are!), as you say the form could not have arrived in
time.  Assuming you've signed a jobseekers agreement and remembered to
sign on I think it's a safe bet that your contribution record shows
you've not paid enough NI.

If this is confirmed by the jobcentre you can compare the NI records
they hold against your 04/05 + 05/06 P60s and P45s if you've had more
than one job (end of year P60s only show current employment).  If they
differ than the jobcentre will need to look into it.

You described your leaving as involuntary redundancy but your employer
ticked the box to say it was involutary dismissal, even if your sort
out the NI you may find your benefit sanctioned (stopped).

Mike

ps I have assumed you signed on this year, if not these will be the
wrong tax years

On 23 Jun, 19:17, Mike 
wrote:

> You described your leaving as involuntary redundancy but your employer
> ticked the box to say it was involutary dismissal, even if your sort
> out the NI you may find your benefit sanctioned (stopped).

Thanks for the advice. AFAICT, the NI should have been paid since I've
been in continuous employment for 3 years, so it was taken out of my
wages. The only slight problem might have been for a year before that,
where I was semi-self-employed for a year (business was patchy) so
that might have affected what I paid. But from what I remember, I kept
up payments in any case.

The circumstances of the "dismissal" are a bit difficult to pin down.
Basically, I was hired for a job below my skill level and as far as
I'm concerned I was lied to at the interview. Just looked at the link
posted by Robin Cox, and I might see if I can pursue a claim for
unfair dismissal. There was no misconduct, just "sorry, old chap,
looks like this isn't the right job for you, so you'll have to leave."
I would have preferred to stay, so it's not voluntary, but equally
there was no misconduct per se.

--
James

"James"  wrote in message
news:1182620485.441851.249900@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...

> Hope this is the right group for this... I lost my job recently
> (involuntary redundancy) and so I applied for jobseeker's allowance
> last week. I was phoned on Thursday by my previous employer, who said
> he'd got a form from the Jobcentre people, asking about the
> circumstances of my dismissal (was it voluntary or involuntary). He
> said he'd tick the "involuntary" box. Hurrah.
>
> Given that he would not have had enough time to return the form by
> Friday, I was surprised to receive a letter on Friday saying:
>
>
> YOUR CLAIM FOR JOBSEEKER'S ALLOWANCE
>
> We cannot pay you Jobseeker's Allowance from 12 June 2007.
> We cannot pay you because the law says we cannot pay you.
>
> We cannot pay you an allowance from 13 June 2007. This is because:
> the law says we cannot pay you.
>
>
> I'm fairly sure I should qualify for contributions based allowance:
> can anyone tell me what the problem might be? Just curious to find out
> before I phone them on Monday morning.

....

If they haven't yet recieved the form back from your employer
confirming your redundancy was involuntary - which as you say they
won't have done - then an automatic letter has been generated,
explaining that you're not eligible for JSA.

Once they've recieved that confirmation then you will be eligible.

These computer generated letters are probably produced
automatically so as to enable them to meet certain targets
in respect of informing claimants of decisions within a certain
number of days. Regardless of whether they're correct or not.

If you phone on Monday before they've recieved the form back
then they'll probably tell you the same thing over the
phone. Until they recieve confirmation from your former
employer, then their hands are tied. As they can't pay
JSA stright off, where redundancy is voluntary.

Give them enough time to have recieve the form back, say Wednesday
or Thursday and phone them then. Assuming everything else is O.K
then your JSA will be backdated to the first day of your claim.


biblios

--


> Obviously, I don't want them to
> break the law on my account ;) but saying "we can't pay you because
> the law says we can't" is as much of an explanation as saying "we're
> not going to pay you because we've decided not to."
>
> Any insight into this lamentable piece of bureaucratese would be very
> welcome.
>
>
> --
> James










>

On Sat, 23 Jun 2007 11:36:59 -0700, James 
wrote:

>On 23 Jun, 19:17, Mike 
>wrote:
>
>> You described your leaving as involuntary redundancy but your employer
>> ticked the box to say it was involutary dismissal, even if your sort
>> out the NI you may find your benefit sanctioned (stopped).
>
>Thanks for the advice. AFAICT, the NI should have been paid since I've
>been in continuous employment for 3 years, so it was taken out of my
>wages. The only slight problem might have been for a year before that,

I have heard of companies not having paid the NI they said they have.
Collect your payslips etc as evidence of having paid it.

>where I was semi-self-employed for a year (business was patchy) so
>that might have affected what I paid. But from what I remember, I kept
>up payments in any case.
>
>The circumstances of the "dismissal" are a bit difficult to pin down.
>Basically, I was hired for a job below my skill level and as far as
>I'm concerned I was lied to at the interview. Just looked at the link
>posted by Robin Cox, and I might see if I can pursue a claim for
>unfair dismissal. There was no misconduct, just "sorry, old chap,
>looks like this isn't the right job for you, so you'll have to leave."
>I would have preferred to stay, so it's not voluntary, but equally
>there was no misconduct per se.
-- 
http://www.orderonlinepickupinstore.co.uk
Ah fetch it yourself if you can't wait for delivery
http://www.freedeliveryuk.co.uk
Or get it delivered for free

On Jun 23, 10:07 pm, "biblios"  wrote:
> "James"  wrote in message
>
> news:1182620485.441851.249900@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Hope this is the right group for this... I lost my job recently
> > (involuntary redundancy) and so I applied for jobseeker's allowance
> > last week. I was phoned on Thursday by my previous employer, who said
> > he'd got a form from the Jobcentre people, asking about the
> > circumstances of my dismissal (was it voluntary or involuntary). He
> > said he'd tick the "involuntary" box. Hurrah.
>
> > Given that he would not have had enough time to return the form by
> > Friday, I was surprised to receive a letter on Friday saying:
>
> > YOUR CLAIM FOR JOBSEEKER'S ALLOWANCE
>
> > We cannot pay you Jobseeker's Allowance from 12 June 2007.
> > We cannot pay you because the law says we cannot pay you.
>
> > We cannot pay you an allowance from 13 June 2007. This is because:
> > the law says we cannot pay you.
>
> > I'm fairly sure I should qualify for contributions based allowance:
> > can anyone tell me what the problem might be? Just curious to find out
> > before I phone them on Monday morning.
>
> ...
>
> If they haven't yet recieved the form back from your employer
> confirming your redundancy was involuntary - which as you say they
> won't have done - then an automatic letter has been generated,
> explaining that you're not eligible for JSA.
>
> Once they've recieved that confirmation then you will be eligible.
>
> These computer generated letters are probably produced
> automatically so as to enable them to meet certain targets
> in respect of informing claimants of decisions within a certain
> number of days. Regardless of whether they're correct or not.
>
> If you phone on Monday before they've recieved the form back
> then they'll probably tell you the same thing over the
> phone. Until they recieve confirmation from your former
> employer, then their hands are tied. As they can't pay
> JSA stright off, where redundancy is voluntary.
>
> Give them enough time to have recieve the form back, say Wednesday
> or Thursday and phone them then. Assuming everything else is O.K
> then your JSA will be backdated to the first day of your claim.
>
> biblios

I doubt it's anything to do with the circumstances around leaving his
last job.  The form from prev emp was in the post and unless the OP
has said he left volumntarily the JC wouldn't consider a suspension
and even then it's very unlikely.  99% of the time they wait for the
form and act on that.

Mike

> If they haven't yet recieved the form back from your employer
> confirming your redundancy was involuntary - which as you say they
> won't have done - then an automatic letter has been generated,
> explaining that you're not eligible for JSA.
>
> Once they've recieved that confirmation then you will be eligible.

Hoped it might be something like that :) Shades of Franz Kafka, being
"refused" but not able to be told why. I'll phone them tomorrow just
because I need a laugh, and I'll remember to try again later in the
week.

Thanks for the advice, and thanks to others who responded as well.

--
James

On Jun 24, 7:56 pm, James  wrote:
> > If they haven't yet recieved the form back from your employer
> > confirming your redundancy was involuntary - which as you say they
> > won't have done - then an automatic letter has been generated,
> > explaining that you're not eligible for JSA.
>
> > Once they've recieved that confirmation then you will be eligible.
>
> Hoped it might be something like that :) Shades of Franz Kafka, being
> "refused" but not able to be told why. I'll phone them tomorrow just
> because I need a laugh, and I'll remember to try again later in the
> week.
>
> Thanks for the advice, and thanks to others who responded as well.
>
> --
> James

Very strange sense of humour ....  Never ever ring the DWP on a monday
unless you really really have too.  In my office the waiting times are
twice as long.

This goes the same for any phone based organisation that shuts for
most of the weekend for obvious reasons.

Mike

"Mike"  wrote in message 
news:1182713751.650230.134670@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 24, 7:56 pm, James  wrote:
>> > If they haven't yet recieved the form back from your employer
>> > confirming your redundancy was involuntary - which as you say they
>> > won't have done - then an automatic letter has been generated,
>> > explaining that you're not eligible for JSA.
>>
>> > Once they've recieved that confirmation then you will be eligible.
>>
>> Hoped it might be something like that :) Shades of Franz Kafka, being
>> "refused" but not able to be told why. I'll phone them tomorrow just
>> because I need a laugh, and I'll remember to try again later in the
>> week.
>>
>> Thanks for the advice, and thanks to others who responded as well.
>>
>> --
>> James
>
> Very strange sense of humour ....  Never ever ring the DWP on a monday
> unless you really really have too.  In my office the waiting times are
> twice as long.
>
> This goes the same for any phone based organisation that shuts for
> most of the weekend for obvious reasons.
>
> Mike
>
When I worked on a telephone team I always advised people to ring as soon as 
the office opened or after 3.30pm. Our phone section was never very busy at 
these times. Mind you, now the section has been disbanded and the calls are 
now taken by the area BDC, I'm not sure if this still applies!

As for the reason why James has been disallowed JSA, it could be for many 
reasons. It is highly doubtful if it's anything to do with the reasons why 
his last job ended at this time as the letter would have told him so. When a 
claim is shut down, a numerical code is input to tell the computer why it 
has been closed (ie, found work, claimed other benefit, gone abroad, failed 
to attend etc). If a code for 'other reason' has been input, this sometimes 
generates a letter with similar wording as was mentioned. If this has 
happened he needs to talk to the office and ask for an explanation. The 
processor should have put a note on the computer to state why this code was 
used.

Netty

On Jun 24, 9:15 pm, "Netty" <netty@???.hello.com> wrote:
> "Mike"  wrote in message
>
> news:1182713751.650230.134670@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Jun 24, 7:56 pm, James  wrote:
> >> > If they haven't yet recieved the form back from your employer
> >> > confirming your redundancy was involuntary - which as you say they
> >> > won't have done - then an automatic letter has been generated,
> >> > explaining that you're not eligible for JSA.
>
> >> > Once they've recieved that confirmation then you will be eligible.
>
> >> Hoped it might be something like that :) Shades of Franz Kafka, being
> >> "refused" but not able to be told why. I'll phone them tomorrow just
> >> because I need a laugh, and I'll remember to try again later in the
> >> week.
>
> >> Thanks for the advice, and thanks to others who responded as well.
>
> >> --
> >> James
>
> > Very strange sense of humour ....  Never ever ring the DWP on a monday
> > unless you really really have too.  In my office the waiting times are
> > twice as long.
>
> > This goes the same for any phone based organisation that shuts for
> > most of the weekend for obvious reasons.
>
> > Mike
>
> When I worked on a telephone team I always advised people to ring as soon as
> the office opened or after 3.30pm. Our phone section was never very busy at
> these times. Mind you, now the section has been disbanded and the calls are
> now taken by the area BDC, I'm not sure if this still applies!
>
> As for the reason why James has been disallowed JSA, it could be for many
> reasons. It is highly doubtful if it's anything to do with the reasons why
> his last job ended at this time as the letter would have told him so. When a
> claim is shut down, a numerical code is input to tell the computer why it
> has been closed (ie, found work, claimed other benefit, gone abroad, failed
> to attend etc). If a code for 'other reason' has been input, this sometimes
> generates a letter with similar wording as was mentioned. If this has
> happened he needs to talk to the office and ask for an explanation. The
> processor should have put a note on the computer to state why this code was
> used.
>
> Netty- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I understand that many of the BDC are constantly busy, low pay, crap
job unsupportive management, ergo people leave in droves.
I know the DWP spent a long time working on the system notifications
whicha re basically paragraphs selcted based on the decision, as such
I would have expected something to say why he couldn't be paid.
However if an system upgrade has been implemented it can sometimes
cock up the 'assembly' of notifications.  In recent years I've seen
the ISCS notifications cocked up so badly partners have been added and
even combined benefits added twice.  Usually follows some seemingly
unrelated ISCS release.
As JSAPs assembles notications in much the same way similar problems
can occur.

Mike

Turns out there were two claims in progress: one for contributions-
based and the other for income-based. The latter was denied in the
letter last week, although I wasn't even aware such a claim had been
put in. The other one should be approved this week. Person in local
JobCentre very helpful and gave me a form to lodge a complaint, for
all the good it will do...

--
James

[Default] On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 12:08:15 -0700, James
 did write:

>Turns out there were two claims in progress: one for contributions-
>based and the other for income-based. The latter was denied in the
>letter last week, although I wasn't even aware such a claim had been
>put in. The other one should be approved this week. Person in local
>JobCentre very helpful and gave me a form to lodge a complaint, for
>all the good it will do...

James, take it from me all formal complaints are dealt with in a very
specific manner. (No - not file 13 or the round bin.) In fact - the
complaints that people do take the time to make actually help, in some
cases, to identify areas that need looking at. 

Unless the department receives feedback about itself and its services
how would it know if something was wrong? As they say - no news is
good news - so get that form filled and sent in asap. And if you're
not satisfied with the reply then you have every right to take the
matter further.
-- 
I’m not prejudiced; I dislike everyone equally.

You're right, of course :) Too easy to be cynical when faced with what
*looks* like a vast, sinister machine...

My last experience of signing on was about 20 years ago -- mercifully
it didn't last long and I hope it won't this time either. Back then,
it seemed the DSS's opening gambit was always "you're not entitled to
anything sonny," regardless of the merits of the claim. This letter
seemed to have shades of that attitude in it, so I suppose that's why
it annoyed me more than it might.

People at the JobCentre itself were very helpful though.

--
James

On Sat, 23 Jun 2007 10:41:25 -0700, James wrote:

> Any insight into this lamentable piece of bureaucratese would be very
> welcome.

See:

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/life/employment/dismissal_and_benefits.htm

On Jun 23, 6:41 pm, James  wrote:
> Hope this is the right group for this... I lost my job recently
> (involuntary redundancy) and so I applied for jobseeker's allowance
> last week. I was phoned on Thursday by my previous employer, who said
> he'd got a form from the Jobcentre people, asking about the
> circumstances of my dismissal (was it voluntary or involuntary). He
> said he'd tick the "involuntary" box. Hurrah.
>
> Given that he would not have had enough time to return the form by
> Friday, I was surprised to receive a letter on Friday saying:
>
> YOUR CLAIM FOR JOBSEEKER'S ALLOWANCE
>
> We cannot pay you Jobseeker's Allowance from 12 June 2007.
> We cannot pay you because the law says we cannot pay you.
>
> We cannot pay you an allowance from 13 June 2007. This is because:
> the law says we cannot pay you.
>
> I'm fairly sure I should qualify for contributions based allowance:
> can anyone tell me what the problem might be? Just curious to find out
> before I phone them on Monday morning. Obviously, I don't want them to
> break the law on my account ;) but saying "we can't pay you because
> the law says we can't" is as much of an explanation as saying "we're
> not going to pay you because we've decided not to."
>
> Any insight into this lamentable piece of bureaucratese would be very
> welcome.
>
> --
> James

Sounds like a piss poor computer generated letter alright.  I doubt it
was anything to do with the reasons for leaving last job (confusing
though they are!), as you say the form could not have arrived in
time.  Assuming you've signed a jobseekers agreement and remembered to
sign on I think it's a safe bet that your contribution record shows
you've not paid enough NI.

If this is confirmed by the jobcentre you can compare the NI records
they hold against your 04/05 + 05/06 P60s and P45s if you've had more
than one job (end of year P60s only show current employment).  If they
differ than the jobcentre will need to look into it.

You described your leaving as involuntary redundancy but your employer
ticked the box to say it was involutary dismissal, even if your sort
out the NI you may find your benefit sanctioned (stopped).

Mike

ps I have assumed you signed on this year, if not these will be the
wrong tax years

On 23 Jun, 19:17, Mike 
wrote:

> You described your leaving as involuntary redundancy but your employer
> ticked t