http://www.geocities.com/armoria/vairE.html

Interesting webpages.

I would imagine that some of this fur must be housed in European
museums so it might be possible to have the some forensic
identification carried out to see whether it came from the Baltic
Squirrel as suggested recently or another grey squirrel as yet unknown
to have inhabited Europe pre American Grey.



Angus Macmillan
www.roots-of-blood.org.uk
www.killhunting.org
www.con-servation.org.uk

All truth passes through three stages:
First, it is ridiculed;
Second, it is violently opposed; and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident. 
-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

wrote in message 
news:cak4c49ushcdc8kqefirf6lbau3gu3emsq@4ax.com...
> http://www.geocities.com/armoria/vairE.html
>
> Interesting webpages.
>
> I would imagine that some of this fur must be housed in European
> museums so it might be possible to have the some forensic
> identification carried out to see whether it came from the Baltic
> Squirrel as suggested recently or another grey squirrel as yet unknown
> to have inhabited Europe pre American Grey.

Yawn

In article , 
amacmil304@aol.com writes
>http://www.geocities.com/armoria/vairE.html
>
>Interesting webpages.
>
>I would imagine that some of this fur must be housed in European
>museums so it might be possible to have the some forensic
>identification carried out to see whether it came from the Baltic
>Squirrel as suggested recently or another grey squirrel as yet unknown
>to have inhabited Europe pre American Grey.
>

No-one not obsessed with the American Grey would ever come up with your 
latter speculation :-(

The red squirrel has "wide regional colour variation across the European 
range, dorsal colour ranging from dark red to black to brown to grey to 
'blue'.....Underside usually white" (Mammals of the British Isles 2008).

Thus, grey animals with white belly fur exist now just as they clearly 
did at the time when squirrel fur was in vogue.

The name "Baltic Squirrel", of course, doesn't refer to a separate 
species or even subspecies.

-- 
Malcolm

On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 08:06:11 +0100, Malcolm
 wrote:

>
>In article , 
>amacmil304@aol.com writes
>>http://www.geocities.com/armoria/vairE.html
>>
>>Interesting webpages.
>>
>>I would imagine that some of this fur must be housed in European
>>museums so it might be possible to have the some forensic
>>identification carried out to see whether it came from the Baltic
>>Squirrel as suggested recently or another grey squirrel as yet unknown
>>to have inhabited Europe pre American Grey.
>>
>
>No-one not obsessed with the American Grey would ever come up with your 
>latter speculation :-(

Someone already did and read what I wrote - not what you'd like to
think I wrote.

>
>The red squirrel has "wide regional colour variation across the European 
>range, dorsal colour ranging from dark red to black to brown to grey to 
>'blue'.....Underside usually white" (Mammals of the British Isles 2008).
>
>Thus, grey animals with white belly fur exist now just as they clearly 
>did at the time when squirrel fur was in vogue.
>

Sure but red squirrels are not "grey squirrels" are they?  I'm talking
about grey squirrels not red that look a bit grey.

>The name "Baltic Squirrel", of course, doesn't refer to a separate 
>species or even subspecies.

Sure it doesn't.   Did I say it did?


Angus Macmillan
www.roots-of-blood.org.uk
www.killhunting.org
www.con-servation.org.uk

All truth passes through three stages:
First, it is ridiculed;
Second, it is violently opposed; and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident. 
-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

In article , 
amacmil304@aol.com writes
>On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 08:06:11 +0100, Malcolm
> wrote:
>
>>
>>In article ,
>>amacmil304@aol.com writes
>>>http://www.geocities.com/armoria/vairE.html
>>>
>>>Interesting webpages.
>>>
>>>I would imagine that some of this fur must be housed in European
>>>museums so it might be possible to have the some forensic
>>>identification carried out to see whether it came from the Baltic
>>>Squirrel as suggested recently or another grey squirrel as yet unknown
>>>to have inhabited Europe pre American Grey.
>>>
>>
>>No-one not obsessed with the American Grey would ever come up with your
>>latter speculation :-(
>
>Someone already did and read what I wrote - not what you'd like to
>think I wrote.
>
I read what you wrote and confirm what I said about it.

>>
>>The red squirrel has "wide regional colour variation across the European
>>range, dorsal colour ranging from dark red to black to brown to grey to
>>'blue'.....Underside usually white" (Mammals of the British Isles 2008).
>>
>>Thus, grey animals with white belly fur exist now just as they clearly
>>did at the time when squirrel fur was in vogue.
>>
>
>Sure but red squirrels are not "grey squirrels" are they?  I'm talking
>about grey squirrels not red that look a bit grey.
>
Your only reference to grey squirrels was your speculation, which only 
someone obsessive about them would make, that there was a grey squirrel 
in Europe several hundred years ago. There isn't the slightest evidence 
to support that.

And, if you recall, you started this thread with a URL about squirrel 
fur used as a fashion accessory, the colours of which fall within the 
normal range of variation of the red.

>>The name "Baltic Squirrel", of course, doesn't refer to a separate
>>species or even subspecies.
>
>Sure it doesn't.   Did I say it did?
>
Then why did you refer to it as if it was a different animal, even 
giving squirrel a capital S? If you don't believe it existed then the 
best way of writing the name is to put it in quotes, as I did.

-- 
Malcolm

On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 10:32:40 +0100, Malcolm
 wrote:

>
>In article , 
>amacmil304@aol.com writes
>>On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 08:06:11 +0100, Malcolm
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>In article ,
>>>amacmil304@aol.com writes
>>>>http://www.geocities.com/armoria/vairE.html
>>>>
>>>>Interesting webpages.
>>>>
>>>>I would imagine that some of this fur must be housed in European
>>>>museums so it might be possible to have the some forensic
>>>>identification carried out to see whether it came from the Baltic
>>>>Squirrel as suggested recently or another grey squirrel as yet unknown
>>>>to have inhabited Europe pre American Grey.
>>>>
>>>
>>>No-one not obsessed with the American Grey would ever come up with your
>>>latter speculation :-(
>>
>>Someone already did and read what I wrote - not what you'd like to
>>think I wrote.
>>
>I read what you wrote and confirm what I said about it.
>

Read it again.

>>>
>>>The red squirrel has "wide regional colour variation across the European
>>>range, dorsal colour ranging from dark red to black to brown to grey to
>>>'blue'.....Underside usually white" (Mammals of the British Isles 2008).
>>>
>>>Thus, grey animals with white belly fur exist now just as they clearly
>>>did at the time when squirrel fur was in vogue.
>>>
>>
>>Sure but red squirrels are not "grey squirrels" are they?  I'm talking
>>about grey squirrels not red that look a bit grey.
>>
>Your only reference to grey squirrels was your speculation, which only 
>someone obsessive about them would make, that there was a grey squirrel 
>in Europe several hundred years ago. There isn't the slightest evidence 
>to support that.

The reference was in the webpages.

Have you any evidence there were no grey squirrels in Europe several
hundred years ago?


>
>And, if you recall, you started this thread with a URL about squirrel 
>fur used as a fashion accessory, the colours of which fall within the 
>normal range of variation of the red.
>
>>>The name "Baltic Squirrel", of course, doesn't refer to a separate
>>>species or even subspecies.
>>
>>Sure it doesn't.   Did I say it did?
>>
>Then why did you refer to it as if it was a different animal, even 
>giving squirrel a capital S? If you don't believe it existed then the 
>best way of writing the name is to put it in quotes, as I did.

Are you saying there's no grey squirrel in the Baltics?    
Angus Macmillan
www.roots-of-blood.org.uk
www.killhunting.org
www.con-servation.org.uk

All truth passes through three stages:
First, it is ridiculed;
Second, it is violently opposed; and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident. 
-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

In article , 
amacmil304@aol.com writes
>On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 10:32:40 +0100, Malcolm
> wrote:
>
>>
>>In article ,
>>amacmil304@aol.com writes
>>>On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 08:06:11 +0100, Malcolm
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>In article ,
>>>>amacmil304@aol.com writes
>>>>>http://www.geocities.com/armoria/vairE.html
>>>>>
>>>>>Interesting webpages.
>>>>>
>>>>>I would imagine that some of this fur must be housed in European
>>>>>museums so it might be possible to have the some forensic
>>>>>identification carried out to see whether it came from the Baltic
>>>>>Squirrel as suggested recently or another grey squirrel as yet unknown
>>>>>to have inhabited Europe pre American Grey.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>No-one not obsessed with the American Grey would ever come up with your
>>>>latter speculation :-(
>>>
>>>Someone already did and read what I wrote - not what you'd like to
>>>think I wrote.
>>>
>>I read what you wrote and confirm what I said about it.
>>
>
>Read it again.
>
>>>>
>>>>The red squirrel has "wide regional colour variation across the European
>>>>range, dorsal colour ranging from dark red to black to brown to grey to
>>>>'blue'.....Underside usually white" (Mammals of the British Isles 2008).
>>>>
>>>>Thus, grey animals with white belly fur exist now just as they clearly
>>>>did at the time when squirrel fur was in vogue.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Sure but red squirrels are not "grey squirrels" are they?  I'm talking
>>>about grey squirrels not red that look a bit grey.
>>>
>>Your only reference to grey squirrels was your speculation, which only
>>someone obsessive about them would make, that there was a grey squirrel
>>in Europe several hundred years ago. There isn't the slightest evidence
>>to support that.
>
>The reference was in the webpages.
>
>Have you any evidence there were no grey squirrels in Europe several
>hundred years ago?
>
You're the one who suggested it, so produce your evidence.
>
>>
>>And, if you recall, you started this thread with a URL about squirrel
>>fur used as a fashion accessory, the colours of which fall within the
>>normal range of variation of the red.
>>
>>>>The name "Baltic Squirrel", of course, doesn't refer to a separate
>>>>species or even subspecies.
>>>
>>>Sure it doesn't.   Did I say it did?
>>>
>>Then why did you refer to it as if it was a different animal, even
>>giving squirrel a capital S? If you don't believe it existed then the
>>best way of writing the name is to put it in quotes, as I did.
>
>Are you saying there's no grey squirrel in the Baltics?

Read what I wrote, not what you'd like to think I wrote.

-- 
Malcolm

On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 12:15:46 +0100, Malcolm
 wrote:

>
>In article , 
>amacmil304@aol.com writes
>>On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 10:32:40 +0100, Malcolm
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>In article ,
>>>amacmil304@aol.com writes
>>>>On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 08:06:11 +0100, Malcolm
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>In article ,
>>>>>amacmil304@aol.com writes
>>>>>>http://www.geocities.com/armoria/vairE.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Interesting webpages.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I would imagine that some of this fur must be housed in European
>>>>>>museums so it might be possible to have the some forensic
>>>>>>identification carried out to see whether it came from the Baltic
>>>>>>Squirrel as suggested recently or another grey squirrel as yet unknown
>>>>>>to have inhabited Europe pre American Grey.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>No-one not obsessed with the American Grey would ever come up with your
>>>>>latter speculation :-(
>>>>
>>>>Someone already did and read what I wrote - not what you'd like to
>>>>think I wrote.
>>>>
>>>I read what you wrote and confirm what I said about it.
>>>
>>
>>Read it again.
>>
>>>>>
>>>>>The red squirrel has "wide regional colour variation across the European
>>>>>range, dorsal colour ranging from dark red to black to brown to grey to
>>>>>'blue'.....Underside usually white" (Mammals of the British Isles 2008).
>>>>>
>>>>>Thus, grey animals with white belly fur exist now just as they clearly
>>>>>did at the time when squirrel fur was in vogue.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Sure but red squirrels are not "grey squirrels" are they?  I'm talking
>>>>about grey squirrels not red that look a bit grey.
>>>>
>>>Your only reference to grey squirrels was your speculation, which only
>>>someone obsessive about them would make, that there was a grey squirrel
>>>in Europe several hundred years ago. There isn't the slightest evidence
>>>to support that.
>>
>>The reference was in the webpages.
>>
>>Have you any evidence there were no grey squirrels in Europe several
>>hundred years ago?
>>
>You're the one who suggested it, so produce your evidence.
>>
>>>
>>>And, if you recall, you started this thread with a URL about squirrel
>>>fur used as a fashion accessory, the colours of which fall within the
>>>normal range of variation of the red.
>>>
>>>>>The name "Baltic Squirrel", of course, doesn't refer to a separate
>>>>>species or even subspecies.
>>>>
>>>>Sure it doesn't.   Did I say it did?
>>>>
>>>Then why did you refer to it as if it was a different animal, even
>>>giving squirrel a capital S? If you don't believe it existed then the
>>>best way of writing the name is to put it in quotes, as I did.
>>
>>Are you saying there's no grey squirrel in the Baltics?
>
>Read what I wrote, not what you'd like to think I wrote.

I have and you're deliberately being stupid.


Angus Macmillan
www.roots-of-blood.org.uk
www.killhunting.org
www.con-servation.org.uk

All truth passes through three stages:
First, it is ridiculed;
Second, it is violently opposed; and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident. 
-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

In article , 
amacmil304@aol.com writes
>On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 12:15:46 +0100, Malcolm
> wrote:
>
>>
>>In article ,
>>amacmil304@aol.com writes
>>>
>>>Are you saying there's no grey squirrel in the Baltics?
>>
>>Read what I wrote, not what you'd like to think I wrote.
>
>I have and you're deliberately being stupid.
>
Thank you for your abject surrender, Angus.

Whenever anyone makes a point you can't counter, you resort, inevitably, 
to childish abuse and name-calling. This has been your trademark signal 
that you have surrendered ever since you first started your campaigning 
here.

Your other tactic, exhibited recently over Bitterns, is to ignore 
evidence which corrects your false statements and assumptions and start 
a new thread, in the hope that your failures won't be noticed.

-- 
Malcolm

On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 17:29:23 +0100, Malcolm
 wrote:

>
>In article , 
>amacmil304@aol.com writes
>>On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 12:15:46 +0100, Malcolm
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>In article ,
>>>amacmil304@aol.com writes
>>>>
>>>>Are you saying there's no grey squirrel in the Baltics?
>>>
>>>Read what I wrote, not what you'd like to think I wrote.
>>
>>I have and you're deliberately being stupid.
>>
>Thank you for your abject surrender, Angus.
>
>Whenever anyone makes a point you can't counter, you resort, inevitably, 
>to childish abuse and name-calling. This has been your trademark signal 
>that you have surrendered ever since you first started your campaigning 
>here.

No Malcolm.  Anyone can see you're being stupid.


>
>Your other tactic, exhibited recently over Bitterns, is to ignore 
>evidence which corrects your false statements and assumptions and start 
>a new thread, in the hope that your failures won't be noticed.

Again, no Malcolm.  And I emailed the "experts" this morning telling
what they've missed :-))


Angus Macmillan
www.roots-of-blood.org.uk
www.killhunting.org
www.con-servation.org.uk

All truth passes through three stages:
First, it is ridiculed;
Second, it is violently opposed; and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident. 
-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

X-No-Archive: yes
In article , 
amacmil304@aol.com writes
>On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 17:29:23 +0100, Malcolm
> wrote:
>
>>
>>In article ,
>>amacmil304@aol.com writes
>>>On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 12:15:46 +0100, Malcolm
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>In article ,
>>>>amacmil304@aol.com writes
>>>>>
>>>>>Are you saying there's no grey squirrel in the Baltics?
>>>>
>>>>Read what I wrote, not what you'd like to think I wrote.
>>>
>>>I have and you're deliberately being stupid.
>>>
>>Thank you for your abject surrender, Angus.
>>
>>Whenever anyone makes a point you can't counter, you resort, inevitably,
>>to childish abuse and name-calling. This has been your trademark signal
>>that you have surrendered ever since you first started your campaigning
>>here.
>
>No Malcolm.  Anyone can see you're being stupid.
>
Thank you for your further surrender.
>
>>
>>Your other tactic, exhibited recently over Bitterns, is to ignore
>>evidence which corrects your false statements and assumptions and start
>>a new thread, in the hope that your failures won't be noticed.
>
>Again, no Malcolm.  And I emailed the "experts" this morning telling
>what they've missed :-))
>
And you call *me* stupid.

I thought you would have had the intelligence to realise that the RSPB 
have full knowledge of the distribution and numbers of Bitterns in 
Britain as their staff carry out the annual census, and that this is 
where I got my information from. Obviously, I was wrong to think that 
about you.

-- 
Malcolm

On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 07:25:43 +0100, Malcolm
 wrote:

>X-No-Archive: yes
>In article , 
>amacmil304@aol.com writes
>>On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 17:29:23 +0100, Malcolm
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>In article ,
>>>amacmil304@aol.com writes
>>>>On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 12:15:46 +0100, Malcolm
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>In article ,
>>>>>amacmil304@aol.com writes
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Are you saying there's no grey squirrel in the Baltics?
>>>>>
>>>>>Read what I wrote, not what you'd like to think I wrote.
>>>>
>>>>I have and you're deliberately being stupid.
>>>>
>>>Thank you for your abject surrender, Angus.
>>>
>>>Whenever anyone makes a point you can't counter, you resort, inevitably,
>>>to childish abuse and name-calling. This has been your trademark signal
>>>that you have surrendered ever since you first started your campaigning
>>>here.
>>
>>No Malcolm.  Anyone can see you're being stupid.
>>
>Thank you for your further surrender.
>>
>>>
>>>Your other tactic, exhibited recently over Bitterns, is to ignore
>>>evidence which corrects your false statements and assumptions and start
>>>a new thread, in the hope that your failures won't be noticed.
>>
>>Again, no Malcolm.  And I emailed the "experts" this morning telling
>>what they've missed :-))
>>
>And you call *me* stupid.
>
>I thought you would have had the intelligence to realise that the RSPB 
>have full knowledge of the distribution and numbers of Bitterns in 
>Britain as their staff carry out the annual census, and that this is 
>where I got my information from. Obviously, I was wrong to think that 
>about you.

Being wrong is one of your habits.

And the public wouldn't need to asked for hearings and sightings if it
was known where they all were.




Angus Macmillan
www.roots-of-blood.org.uk
www.killhunting.org
www.con-servation.org.uk

All truth passes through three stages:
First, it is ridiculed;
Second, it is violently opposed; and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident. 
-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

wrote in message 
news:38m9c4t7ahe2ieqaqkf1u6348gvkvuj3lb@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 07:25:43 +0100, Malcolm
>  wrote:
>
<snip>

>>
>>I thought you would have had the intelligence to realise that the RSPB
>>have full knowledge of the distribution and numbers of Bitterns in
>>Britain as their staff carry out the annual census, and that this is
>>where I got my information from. Obviously, I was wrong to think that
>>about you.
>
> Being wrong is one of your habits.
>
> And the public wouldn't need to asked for hearings and sightings if it
> was known where they all were.
>
>

Perhaps Malcolm is writing about the locations known to be used by 
*breeding* bitterns in the UK, not the location of each individual bittern 
in the UK at any given point in time. These are likely to be known because 
the 'booming' of the males will probably be heard.

If habitats 'improve' from the bitterns perspective, by accident or design, 
there will be a chance of colonisation, and people observing that will help 
keep knowledge of breeding locations up to date.

Then there are overwintering locations. Some places (e.g. WWT London) get an 
influx of continental bitterns which overwinter in UK reedbeds (predating on 
UK fish and birds etc., the foreign devils, acting like invasive aliens) 
before heading back to the continent to breed.

It is likely that some overwintering locations will be unknown, since 
bitterns in dense reedbeds are not easy to spot.