Sir Walter Scott (15 August1771 - 21 September 1832) wrote this in
1819 in his historical fiction novel "Ivanhoe" which was set in 12th
century England.

Chapter 3

"His dress was a tunic of forest green, furred at the throat and cuffs
with what was called minever; a kind of fur inferior in quality to
ermine, and formed, it is believed, of the skin of the grey squirrel."

In the 12th century as far as I am aware there was no trade in furs
with America and I'm quite sure that Sir Walter Scott would not have
been such a careless writer as to write in grey squirrels if they were
no in existence in England or Europe.

Can anyone explain this?


Angus Macmillan
www.roots-of-blood.org.uk
www.killhunting.org
www.con-servation.org.uk

All truth passes through three stages:
First, it is ridiculed;
Second, it is violently opposed; and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident. 
-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

wrote in message 
news:kqrab4p5bf6jdd8aakenkegruhjrj79m1s@4ax.com...
> Sir Walter Scott (15 August1771 - 21 September 1832) wrote this in
> 1819 in his historical fiction novel "Ivanhoe" which was set in 12th
> century England.
>
> Chapter 3
>
> "His dress was a tunic of forest green, furred at the throat and cuffs
> with what was called minever; a kind of fur inferior in quality to
> ermine, and formed, it is believed, of the skin of the grey squirrel."
>
> In the 12th century as far as I am aware there was no trade in furs
> with America and I'm quite sure that Sir Walter Scott would not have
> been such a careless writer as to write in grey squirrels if they were
> no in existence in England or Europe.
>
> Can anyone explain this?


Yes, you're just careless in your understanding.

I should really suggest you do your own research but it is too painful to 
see you struggle to try and suggest American Grey Squirrels are native to 
"England or Europe"
You'll have to try harder next time :-)

Google, and a bit of intelligence is your friend.

Pteromys volans Siberian Flying Squirrel or  "Baltic Squirrel"
Fur often called grys as in Chacuer Canterbury Tales 11
"With grys, and that the fyneste of a lond,
And for to festne his hood under his chyn"

Tia

wrote in message 
news:kqrab4p5bf6jdd8aakenkegruhjrj79m1s@4ax.com...
> Sir Walter Scott (15 August1771 - 21 September 1832) wrote this in
> 1819 in his historical fiction novel "Ivanhoe" which was set in 12th
> century England.
>
> Chapter 3
>
> "His dress was a tunic of forest green, furred at the throat and cuffs
> with what was called minever; a kind of fur inferior in quality to
> ermine, and formed, it is believed, of the skin of the grey squirrel."
>
> In the 12th century as far as I am aware there was no trade in furs
> with America and I'm quite sure that Sir Walter Scott would not have
> been such a careless writer as to write in grey squirrels if they were
> no in existence in England or Europe.
>
> Can anyone explain this?
>

Unless the author left notes explaining his intended meaning, we can only 
guess.

Perhaps he made a mistake.

Or perhaps he knew that the colour of the common Eurasian squirrel can vary 
from red, through brown, to black, and all shades between, and that the 
longer haired winter coat can look rather grey, hence there may well have 
been a trade in European 'grey' squirrel pelts in mediaeval times.

This wikipedia entry

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Squirrel

has a picture of a 'red' squirrel in grey winter coat, for example.

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 17:22:01 +0100, "Tia" <use@yourperil.invalid>
wrote:

> wrote in message 
>news:kqrab4p5bf6jdd8aakenkegruhjrj79m1s@4ax.com...
>> Sir Walter Scott (15 August1771 - 21 September 1832) wrote this in
>> 1819 in his historical fiction novel "Ivanhoe" which was set in 12th
>> century England.
>>
>> Chapter 3
>>
>> "His dress was a tunic of forest green, furred at the throat and cuffs
>> with what was called minever; a kind of fur inferior in quality to
>> ermine, and formed, it is believed, of the skin of the grey squirrel."
>>
>> In the 12th century as far as I am aware there was no trade in furs
>> with America and I'm quite sure that Sir Walter Scott would not have
>> been such a careless writer as to write in grey squirrels if they were
>> no in existence in England or Europe.
>>
>> Can anyone explain this?
>
>
>Yes, you're just careless in your understanding.
>
>I should really suggest you do your own research but it is too painful to 
>see you struggle to try and suggest American Grey Squirrels are native to 
>"England or Europe"
>You'll have to try harder next time :-)

I think you're careless in your understanding.  I said, " In the 12th
century as far as I am aware there was no trade in furs with America"
so if it was a grey squirrel fur it would most likely have come from
Europe.  You'll have to try harder next time :-)

So the question is.  Were there grey squirrels in Europe that became
extinct?  And if so were they the same species as the East American
Grey?   Do you know the answers?

>
>Google, and a bit of intelligence is your friend.
>
>Pteromys volans Siberian Flying Squirrel or  "Baltic Squirrel"
>Fur often called grys as in Chacuer Canterbury Tales 11
>"With grys, and that the fyneste of a lond,
>And for to festne his hood under his chyn"
>
>Tia 
>
Angus Macmillan
www.roots-of-blood.org.uk
www.killhunting.org
www.con-servation.org.uk

All truth passes through three stages:
First, it is ridiculed;
Second, it is violently opposed; and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident. 
-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 18:39:55 +0100, "BAC"
 wrote:

>
> wrote in message 
>news:kqrab4p5bf6jdd8aakenkegruhjrj79m1s@4ax.com...
>> Sir Walter Scott (15 August1771 - 21 September 1832) wrote this in
>> 1819 in his historical fiction novel "Ivanhoe" which was set in 12th
>> century England.
>>
>> Chapter 3
>>
>> "His dress was a tunic of forest green, furred at the throat and cuffs
>> with what was called minever; a kind of fur inferior in quality to
>> ermine, and formed, it is believed, of the skin of the grey squirrel."
>>
>> In the 12th century as far as I am aware there was no trade in furs
>> with America and I'm quite sure that Sir Walter Scott would not have
>> been such a careless writer as to write in grey squirrels if they were
>> no in existence in England or Europe.
>>
>> Can anyone explain this?
>>
>
>Unless the author left notes explaining his intended meaning, we can only 
>guess.
>
>Perhaps he made a mistake.

Could be.

>
>Or perhaps he knew that the colour of the common Eurasian squirrel can vary 
>from red, through brown, to black, and all shades between, and that the 
>longer haired winter coat can look rather grey, hence there may well have 
>been a trade in European 'grey' squirrel pelts in mediaeval times.
>
>This wikipedia entry
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Squirrel
>
>has a picture of a 'red' squirrel in grey winter coat, for example. 
>


I think it's still un mistakenly red.


Angus Macmillan
www.roots-of-blood.org.uk
www.killhunting.org
www.con-servation.org.uk

All truth passes through three stages:
First, it is ridiculed;
Second, it is violently opposed; and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident. 
-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

wrote in message 
news:549bb4tc4n7g8na8tfh443nn5elbn5qn53@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 17:22:01 +0100, "Tia" <use@yourperil.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> wrote in message
>>news:kqrab4p5bf6jdd8aakenkegruhjrj79m1s@4ax.com...
>>> Sir Walter Scott (15 August1771 - 21 September 1832) wrote this in
>>> 1819 in his historical fiction novel "Ivanhoe" which was set in 12th
>>> century England.
>>>
>>> Chapter 3
>>>
>>> "His dress was a tunic of forest green, furred at the throat and cuffs
>>> with what was called minever; a kind of fur inferior in quality to
>>> ermine, and formed, it is believed, of the skin of the grey squirrel."
>>>
>>> In the 12th century as far as I am aware there was no trade in furs
>>> with America and I'm quite sure that Sir Walter Scott would not have
>>> been such a careless writer as to write in grey squirrels if they were
>>> no in existence in England or Europe.
>>>
>>> Can anyone explain this?
>>
>>
>>Yes, you're just careless in your understanding.
>>
>>I should really suggest you do your own research but it is too painful to
>>see you struggle to try and suggest American Grey Squirrels are native to
>>"England or Europe"
>>You'll have to try harder next time :-)
>
> I think you're careless in your understanding.  I said, " In the 12th
> century as far as I am aware there was no trade in furs with America"
> so if it was a grey squirrel fur it would most likely have come from
> Europe.  You'll have to try harder next time :-)


You really aren't good at understanding are you.
Let me spell it out for you.
The "grey" referred to by Scot is the the Baltic Squirrel, which is, not 
surprisingly grey. You would have known if you'd done some research on 
Pteromys volans.
This species was taken for its fur for many centuries.
Nowhere does Scott suggest Americal Grey Squirrels.    Got it?
If I say black cat, would you assume there was a species called the American 
Black Cat?
If I say white horse, would you assume there was a species called the 
American Horse?

Think about it!

Tia

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 21:20:11 +0100, "Tia" <use@yourperil.invalid>
wrote:

>
> wrote in message 
>news:549bb4tc4n7g8na8tfh443nn5elbn5qn53@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 17:22:01 +0100, "Tia" <use@yourperil.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> wrote in message
>>>news:kqrab4p5bf6jdd8aakenkegruhjrj79m1s@4ax.com...
>>>> Sir Walter Scott (15 August1771 - 21 September 1832) wrote this in
>>>> 1819 in his historical fiction novel "Ivanhoe" which was set in 12th
>>>> century England.
>>>>
>>>> Chapter 3
>>>>
>>>> "His dress was a tunic of forest green, furred at the throat and cuffs
>>>> with what was called minever; a kind of fur inferior in quality to
>>>> ermine, and formed, it is believed, of the skin of the grey squirrel."
>>>>
>>>> In the 12th century as far as I am aware there was no trade in furs
>>>> with America and I'm quite sure that Sir Walter Scott would not have
>>>> been such a careless writer as to write in grey squirrels if they were
>>>> no in existence in England or Europe.
>>>>
>>>> Can anyone explain this?
>>>
>>>
>>>Yes, you're just careless in your understanding.
>>>
>>>I should really suggest you do your own research but it is too painful to
>>>see you struggle to try and suggest American Grey Squirrels are native to
>>>"England or Europe"
>>>You'll have to try harder next time :-)
>>
>> I think you're careless in your understanding.  I said, " In the 12th
>> century as far as I am aware there was no trade in furs with America"
>> so if it was a grey squirrel fur it would most likely have come from
>> Europe.  You'll have to try harder next time :-)
>
>
>You really aren't good at understanding are you.

Probably no worse than you.

>Let me spell it out for you.
>The "grey" referred to by Scot is the the Baltic Squirrel, which is, not 
>surprisingly grey. You would have known if you'd done some research on 
>Pteromys volans.


Why do I need to when I've got someone like you to do it for me :-)


>This species was taken for its fur for many centuries.

OK, if you say so.

>Nowhere does Scott suggest Americal Grey Squirrels. 

Nor did I, if you understood what I wrote.

> Got it?

I don't think you "got it".

>If I say black cat, would you assume there was a species called the American 
>Black Cat?
>If I say white horse, would you assume there was a species called the 
>American Horse?
>

Nor would I in either occasion.  

>Think about it!

I have but you haven't :-))

>
>Tia 
>

Maria?   Too much?


Angus Macmillan
www.roots-of-blood.org.uk
www.killhunting.org
www.con-servation.org.uk

All truth passes through three stages:
First, it is ridiculed;
Second, it is violently opposed; and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident. 
-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 21:20:11 +0100, "Tia" <use@yourperil.invalid>
wrote:


>You really aren't good at understanding are you.
>Let me spell it out for you.
>The "grey" referred to by Scot is the the Baltic Squirrel, which is, not 
>surprisingly grey. You would have known if you'd done some research on 
>Pteromys volans.
>This species was taken for its fur for many centuries.

I have looked this up in Wikipedia
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_Flying_Squirrel)

and if the description is correct it is not the squirrel that Scott
referred to as it has no white underbelly.

So are there any other grey squirrels in Europe with a white
underbelly that could be used as the poor man's ermine?



Angus Macmillan
www.roots-of-blood.org.uk
www.killhunting.org
www.con-servation.org.uk

All truth passes through three stages:
First, it is ridiculed;
Second, it is violently opposed; and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident. 
-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

In article , 
amacmil304@aol.com writes
>Sir Walter Scott (15 August1771 - 21 September 1832) wrote this in
>1819 in his historical fiction novel "Ivanhoe" which was set in 12th
>century England.
>
>Chapter 3
>
>"His dress was a tunic of forest green, furred at the throat and cuffs
>with what was called minever; a kind of fur inferior in quality to
>ermine, and formed, it is believed, of the skin of the grey squirrel."
>
>In the 12th century as far as I am aware there was no trade in furs
>with America and I'm quite sure that Sir Walter Scott would not have
>been such a careless writer as to write in grey squirrels if they were
>no in existence in England or Europe.
>
>Can anyone explain this?
>
>
Yes. You're indulging in your well-known and oft-repeated behaviour of 
clutching at straws while at the same time failing to do the necessary 
research, which inevitably leads to you making an arse of yourself :-))

"A fur esteemed in the Middle Ages as a part of costume. It is uncertain 
whether it was the fur of one animal only or of different animals."

As for believing that Sir Walter Scott was accurate in every wildlife 
detail in all his novels, then you clearly haven't read them all. 
Indeed, have you read any of them, or did someone draw your attention to 
this quotation?

How about this from 'The Heart of Midlothian'?

"Proud Maisie is in the wood,
Walking so early.
Sweet Robin sits in the bush,
Singing so rarely."

Even you should know that the Robin doesn't sing "rarely", but 
frequently and throughout several months of the year.

Walter Scott knew exactly what he was doing, as he said in the 
introduction to 'The Fortunes of Nigel':

"But no one shall find me rowing against the stream, I care not who 
knows it - I write for general amusement."

Perhaps you should start by looking up the definition of a novel.

-- 
Malcolm

wrote in message
news:vcebb4d9ks7du7k9s55uo7g5k4v3ir28j1@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 21:20:11 +0100, "Tia" <use@yourperil.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>
>>You really aren't good at understanding are you.
>>Let me spell it out for you.
>>The "grey" referred to by Scot is the the Baltic Squirrel, which is, not
>>surprisingly grey. You would have known if you'd done some research on
>>Pteromys volans.
>>This species was taken for its fur for many centuries.
>
> I have looked this up in Wikipedia
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_Flying_Squirrel)
>
> and if the description is correct it is not the squirrel that Scott
> referred to as it has no white underbelly.
>
> So are there any other grey squirrels in Europe with a white
> underbelly that could be used as the poor man's ermine?

I think that strictly ermine is different from miniver which is classed as
not spotted or ticked white or greyish fur.  Ermine is the fur with the
stoat tail black ticks.
Rabbit fur was also used, as now where the peers of the House of Lords wear
"ermine"  robes, the fur is actually miniver - rabbit fur - which has black
spots painted into it to represent ermine.

Miniver \Min"i*ver\, n. [See Meniver.]
   A fur esteemed in the Middle Ages as a part of costume. It is
uncertain whether it was the fur of one animal only or of    different
animals.

The winter coats of most "fur" animals is what is normally sought by the
trade as it is more luxuriant.
The winter coat of Pteromys volans is silvery grey in winter with white
underparts.
http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Pteromys_volans.html
"In the summer, the fur on the back is yellow-gray to blackish gray. In the
winter, it becomes silvery gray. The belly remains white throughout the
year. The margins of the gliding membrane are bordered with a distinct
fringe of soft fur. The tail is flat and is covered with short hair."

Also see
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/119972605/PDFSTART
An Aristocratic Wardrobe of the Late Thirteenth Century: the Confiscation of 
the Goods of Osbert de Spaldington in 1298 which states "Minever fur was an 
elegant and costly northern fur, obtained  by sewing together the skins of 
squirrels caught in winter. This fur was white with some of the grey fur of 
the back appearing."

Also of interest is:

 http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=SU4wAAAAMAAJ&lpg=PA67&ots=UQpNA43OHC&dq=minever%20fur&pg=PA67&ci=39,1018,888,502&source=bookclip Tia

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 22:31:07 +0100, Malcolm
 wrote:

>
>In article , 
>amacmil304@aol.com writes
>>Sir Walter Scott (15 August1771 - 21 September 1832) wrote this in
>>1819 in his historical fiction novel "Ivanhoe" which was set in 12th
>>century England.
>>
>>Chapter 3
>>
>>"His dress was a tunic of forest green, furred at the throat and cuffs
>>with what was called minever; a kind of fur inferior in quality to
>>ermine, and formed, it is believed, of the skin of the grey squirrel."
>>
>>In the 12th century as far as I am aware there was no trade in furs
>>with America and I'm quite sure that Sir Walter Scott would not have
>>been such a careless writer as to write in grey squirrels if they were
>>no in existence in England or Europe.
>>
>>Can anyone explain this?
>>
>>
>Yes. You're indulging in your well-known and oft-repeated behaviour of 
>clutching at straws while at the same time failing to do the necessary 
>research, which inevitably leads to you making an arse of yourself :-))

I think it is you who is making an a**e of yourself. I asked for an
explanation of the previous two paragraphs to which you replied "yes"
and then went on to your customary rant with no explanation
whatsoever.

>
>"A fur esteemed in the Middle Ages as a part of costume. It is uncertain 
>whether it was the fur of one animal only or of different animals."

So they don't know where the fur came from. 
>
>As for believing that Sir Walter Scott was accurate in every wildlife 
>detail in all his novels, then you clearly haven't read them all. 
>Indeed, have you read any of them, or did someone draw your attention to 
>this quotation?
>

It was drawn to my attention..

>How about this from 'The Heart of Midlothian'?
>
>"Proud Maisie is in the wood,
>Walking so early.
>Sweet Robin sits in the bush,
>Singing so rarely."
>
>Even you should know that the Robin doesn't sing "rarely", but 
>frequently and throughout several months of the year.

We have a fairly silent robin in our garden.  I have yet to hear him
sing.

>
>Walter Scott knew exactly what he was doing, as he said in the 
>introduction to 'The Fortunes of Nigel':
>

So you pick and choose when he knew exactly what he was saying to suit
yourself.  You just can't avoid being a fake, Malcolm.

>"But no one shall find me rowing against the stream, I care not who 
>knows it - I write for general amusement."
>
>Perhaps you should start by looking up the definition of a novel.

Perhaps you should try being consistent.


Angus Macmillan
www.roots-of-blood.org.uk
www.killhunting.org
www.con-servation.org.uk

All truth passes through three stages:
First, it is ridiculed;
Second, it is violently opposed; and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident. 
-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 22:42:38 +0100, "Tia" <use@yourperil.invalid>
wrote:

>
> wrote in message
>news:vcebb4d9ks7du7k9s55uo7g5k4v3ir28j1@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 21:20:11 +0100, "Tia" <use@yourperil.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>You really aren't good at understanding are you.
>>>Let me spell it out for you.
>>>The "grey" referred to by Scot is the the Baltic Squirrel, which is, not
>>>surprisingly grey. You would have known if you'd done some research on
>>>Pteromys volans.
>>>This species was taken for its fur for many centuries.
>>
>> I have looked this up in Wikipedia
>> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_Flying_Squirrel)
>>
>> and if the description is correct it is not the squirrel that Scott
>> referred to as it has no white underbelly.
>>
>> So are there any other grey squirrels in Europe with a white
>> underbelly that could be used as the poor man's ermine?
>
>I think that strictly ermine is different from miniver which is classed as
>not spotted or ticked white or greyish fur.  Ermine is the fur with the
>stoat tail black ticks.
>Rabbit fur was also used, as now where the peers of the House of Lords wear
>"ermine"  robes, the fur is actually miniver - rabbit fur - which has black
>spots painted into it to represent ermine.
>
>Miniver \Min"i*ver\, n. [See Meniver.]
>   A fur esteemed in the Middle Ages as a part of costume. It is
>uncertain whether it was the fur of one animal only or of    different
>animals.
>
>The winter coats of most "fur" animals is what is normally sought by the
>trade as it is more luxuriant.
>The winter coat of Pteromys volans is silvery grey in winter with white
>underparts.
>http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Pteromys_volans.html
>"In the summer, the fur on the back is yellow-gray to blackish gray. In the
>winter, it becomes silvery gray. The belly remains white throughout the
>year. The margins of the gliding membrane are bordered with a distinct
>fringe of soft fur. The tail is flat and is covered with short hair."
>
>Also see
>http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/119972605/PDFSTART
>An Aristocratic Wardrobe of the Late Thirteenth Century: the Confiscation of 
>the Goods of Osbert de Spaldington in 1298 which states "Minever fur was an 
>elegant and costly northern fur, obtained  by sewing together the skins of 
>squirrels caught in winter. This fur was white with some of the grey fur of 
>the back appearing."
>
>Also of interest is:
>
> http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=SU4wAAAAMAAJ&lpg=PA67&ots=UQpNA43OHC&dq=minever%20fur&pg=PA67&ci=39,1018,888,502&source=bookclip Tia


I think you are probably correct in your assertion that the fur Sir
Walter Scott mentioned came from the underside of the Siberian Flying
Squirrel.

However, it's a pity you jump to conclusions about the American Grey
when I didn't even mention it.  Perhaps this will improve your
understanding of what people write.

Thanks for the information.


Angus Macmillan
www.roots-of-blood.org.uk
www.killhunting.org
www.con-servation.org.uk

All truth passes through three stages:
First, it is ridiculed;
Second, it is violently opposed; and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident. 
-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

In article , 
amacmil304@aol.com writes
>On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 22:31:07 +0100, Malcolm
> wrote:
>
>>
>>In article ,
>>amacmil304@aol.com writes
>>>Sir Walter Scott (15 August1771 - 21 September 1832) wrote this in
>>>1819 in his historical fiction novel "Ivanhoe" which was set in 12th
>>>century England.
>>>
>>>Chapter 3
>>>
>>>"His dress was a tunic of forest green, furred at the throat and cuffs
>>>with what was called minever; a kind of fur inferior in quality to
>>>ermine, and formed, it is believed, of the skin of the grey squirrel."
>>>
>>>In the 12th century as far as I am aware there was no trade in furs
>>>with America and I'm quite sure that Sir Walter Scott would not have
>>>been such a careless writer as to write in grey squirrels if they were
>>>no in existence in England or Europe.
>>>
>>>Can anyone explain this?
>>>
>>>
>>Yes. You're indulging in your well-known and oft-repeated behaviour of
>>clutching at straws while at the same time failing to do the necessary
>>research, which inevitably leads to you making an arse of yourself :-))
>
>I think it is you who is making an a**e of yourself. I asked for an
>explanation of the previous two paragraphs to which you replied "yes"
>and then went on to your customary rant with no explanation
>whatsoever.
>
You obviously don't understand what you write. You've just had this 
point out to you by John.

You didn't ask for an explanation, you asked if anyone could explain it. 
There is a difference. I replied "yes", because it was such an obvious 
case of you clutching at straws, attempting to show that this was a 
reference to the grey squirrel by Scott. You would never have posted 
this had the reference been to some other animal.

>>
>>"A fur esteemed in the Middle Ages as a part of costume. It is uncertain
>>whether it was the fur of one animal only or of different animals."
>
>So they don't know where the fur came from.

Well done.

>>
>>As for believing that Sir Walter Scott was accurate in every wildlife
>>detail in all his novels, then you clearly haven't read them all.
>>Indeed, have you read any of them, or did someone draw your attention to
>>this quotation?
>>
>
>It was drawn to my attention..
>
So how many of Scott's novels have you read?

>>How about this from 'The Heart of Midlothian'?
>>
>>"Proud Maisie is in the wood,
>>Walking so early.
>>Sweet Robin sits in the bush,
>>Singing so rarely."
>>
>>Even you should know that the Robin doesn't sing "rarely", but
>>frequently and throughout several months of the year.
>
>We have a fairly silent robin in our garden.  I have yet to hear him
>sing.
>
You shortly will and it will continue for several months.
>>
>>Walter Scott knew exactly what he was doing, as he said in the
>>introduction to 'The Fortunes of Nigel':
>>
>
>So you pick and choose when he knew exactly what he was saying to suit
>yourself.  You just can't avoid being a fake, Malcolm.
>
No, just a couple of quotes picked at random. Your fakery was trying to 
drag in the subject of grey squirrels.

It was so obvious the way your mind was working, confirmed by your later 
questions: "Were there grey squirrels in Europe that became extinct? 
And if so were they the same species as the East American Grey?"

Like I said, making an arse of yourself because you didn't do any 
research *before* jumping to the conclusion that the American Grey might 
have been in Europe hundreds of years prior to its introduction to the 
UK. You were building a whole edifice of supposition relating to your 
obsession with grey squirrels based on a single quote by Scott which you 
didn't bother to investigate yourself. You hadn't even worked out that 
America hadn't been discovered in the 12th century, which would have 
made a trade in furs at that time quite difficult!

>>"But no one shall find me rowing against the stream, I care not who
>>knows it - I write for general amusement."
>>
>>Perhaps you should start by looking up the definition of a novel.
>
>Perhaps you should try being consistent.
>
Says a very inconsistent person.

-- 
Malcolm

On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 07:32:12 +0100, Malcolm
 wrote:

>
>In article , 
>amacmil304@aol.com writes
>>On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 22:31:07 +0100, Malcolm
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>In article ,
>>>amacmil304@aol.com writes
>>>>Sir Walter Scott (15 August1771 - 21 September 1832) wrote this in
>>>>1819 in his historical fiction novel "Ivanhoe" which was set in 12th
>>>>century England.
>>>>
>>>>Chapter 3
>>>>
>>>>"His dress was a tunic of forest green, furred at the throat and cuffs
>>>>with what was called minever; a kind of fur inferior in quality to
>>>>ermine, and formed, it is believed, of the skin of the grey squirrel."
>>>>
>>>>In the 12th century as far as I am aware there was no trade in furs
>>>>with America and I'm quite sure that Sir Walter Scott would not have
>>>>been such a careless writer as to write in grey squirrels if they were
>>>>no in existence in England or Europe.
>>>>
>>>>Can anyone explain this?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Yes. You're indulging in your well-known and oft-repeated behaviour of
>>>clutching at straws while at the same time failing to do the necessary
>>>research, which inevitably leads to you making an arse of yourself :-))
>>
>>I think it is you who is making an a**e of yourself. I asked for an
>>explanation of the previous two paragraphs to which you replied "yes"
>>and then went on to your customary rant with no explanation
>>whatsoever.
>>
>You obviously don't understand what you write. You've just had this 
>point out to you by John.
>
>You didn't ask for an explanation, you asked if anyone could explain it. 

Same thing.

>There is a difference. 

No there's not.

>I replied "yes", because it was such an obvious 
>case of you clutching at straws, attempting to show that this was a 
>reference to the grey squirrel by Scott. You would never have posted 
>this had the reference been to some other animal.
>

I'm interested to know where the white fur came from.

>>>
>>>"A fur esteemed in the Middle Ages as a part of costume. It is uncertain
>>>whether it was the fur of one animal only or of different animals."
>>
>>So they don't know where the fur came from.
>
>Well done.
>

Not if they don't know:-))

>>>
>>>As for believing that Sir Walter Scott was accurate in every wildlife
>>>detail in all his novels, then you clearly haven't read them all.
>>>Indeed, have you read any of them, or did someone draw your attention to
>>>this quotation?
>>>
>>
>>It was drawn to my attention..
>>
>So how many of Scott's novels have you read?
>

Absolutely none.  I wouldn't waste my time.


>>>How about this from 'The Heart of Midlothian'?
>>>
>>>"Proud Maisie is in the wood,
>>>Walking so early.
>>>Sweet Robin sits in the bush,
>>>Singing so rarely."
>>>
>>>Even you should know that the Robin doesn't sing "rarely", but
>>>frequently and throughout several months of the year.
>>
>>We have a fairly silent robin in our garden.  I have yet to hear him
>>sing.
>>
>You shortly will and it will continue for several months.

We've had robins for years.

>>>
>>>Walter Scott knew exactly what he was doing, as he said in the
>>>introduction to 'The Fortunes of Nigel':
>>>
>>
>>So you pick and choose when he knew exactly what he was saying to suit
>>yourself.  You just can't avoid being a fake, Malcolm.
>>
>No, just a couple of quotes picked at random. Your fakery was trying to 
>drag in the subject of grey squirrels.
>
>It was so obvious the way your mind was working, confirmed by your later 
>questions: "Were there grey squirrels in Europe that became extinct? 
>And if so were they the same species as the East American Grey?"
>
  How do you know what species were present in Europe and became
extinct?   

Are the only ones that traces have been found deemed to have been
here?  What about the ones no traces have been found?

So just more speculation used as fact by scientists:-(



>Like I said, making an arse of yourself because you didn't do any 
>research *before* jumping to the conclusion that the American Grey might 
>have been in Europe hundreds of years prior to its introduction to the 
>UK. You were building a whole edifice of supposition relating to your 
>obsession with grey squirrels based on a single quote by Scott which you 
>didn't bother to investigate yourself. 

No Malcolm.  That's why I asked the question. Other people did it for
me :-))

>You hadn't even worked out that 
>America hadn't been discovered in the 12th century, which would have 
>made a trade in furs at that time quite difficult! with America.

 
I said, "In the 12th century as far as I am aware there was no trade
in furs"   However without checking I do believe America had been
discovered at the time by someone called  Ericson.  

>
>>>"But no one shall find me rowing against the stream, I care not who
>>>knows it - I write for general amusement."
>>>
>>>Perhaps you should start by looking up the definition of a novel.
>>
>>Perhaps you should try being consistent.
>>
>Says a very inconsistent person.



Angus Macmillan
www.roots-of-blood.org.uk
www.killhunting.org
www.con-servation.org.uk

All truth passes through three stages:
First, it is ridiculed;
Second, it is violently opposed; and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident. 
-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

wrote in message 
news:kqrab4p5bf6jdd8aakenkegruhjrj79m1s@4ax.com...
> Sir Walter Scott (15 August1771 - 21 September 1832) wrote this in
> 1819 in his historical fiction novel "Ivanhoe" which was set in 12th
> century England.
>
> Chapter 3
>
> "His dress was a tunic of forest green, furred at the throat and cuffs
> with what was called minever; a kind of fur inferior in quality to
> ermine, and formed, it is believed, of the skin of the grey squirrel."
>
> In the 12th century as far as I am aware there was no trade in furs
> with America and I'm quite sure that Sir Walter Scott would not have
> been such a careless writer as to write in grey squirrels if they were
> no in existence in England or Europe.
>
> Can anyone explain this?


The term miniver is derived from  menu-vair a term used for fur lining of 
coats in the middle ages
Vair is  fur of the Eurasion red squirrel Sciurus vulgaris
see below

        "Where there are more than six rows, the term menu-vair may be used 
(outside British heraldry). This is the origin of the English         word 
"miniver", which was the general word for the fur lining used for robes of 
state"
         http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tincture_(heraldry)

        "The word vair is derived from the Middle English forms veir and 
vairé, ultimately from Latin variorum opus meaning 
"variegated     work" (the English equivalent is greywerk)

        The squirrel in question is a variety of the Eurasian Red Squirrel, 
Sciurus vulgaris. In the coldest parts of Northern and Central 
Europe, especially the Baltic region, the winter coat of this squirrel is 
blue-grey on the back and white on the belly""
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vair