Squirrel Propaganda
 
The ongoing campaign against grey squirrels is grossly unfair and
doesn't stack up factually.
 
Red squirrels are at the edge of their range in the UK, which
stretches from here to China, and all mammals are subject to
population fluctuations in these circumstances. If we want to assist
the reds to survive we should be improving their habitat by planting
trees in which they thrive, rather than wallpapering the countryside
with native broadleaves that favour the greys' expansion. We should
also be reducing our own intrusion into their domain. 

There is no evidence that greys are transmitting squirrel-pox virus
(SQPV) to reds as the presence of antibodies in greys merely means
they have been in contact with the disease, most probably by
associating with reds or possibly other rodents that were already
infected.  The Forestry Commission have admitted that "no routine
testing of live red squirrels is undertaken" and they "are not aware
of any scientific evidence one way or another as to whether or not
there is a resistant population of reds out there" so it is quite
wrong for red squirrel groups to say that they have no immunity to the
disease.  Indeed, the population could well have been wiped out long
ago if there were not some form of resistance present.

Early in the last century, out of forty-four districts in England
where red squirrels had the disease only four districts had grey
squirrels present. This suggests that SQPV has been within the red
squirrel population for around a century at least and that grey
squirrels are victims of a campaign of vilification.  Some people even
have the audacity to claim that SQPV somehow arrived around the time
it was discovered in 1983 but that is about as ridiculous as claiming
America didn't exist before it was "discovered" by Leif Ericson.

The hate campaign against grey squirrels has reached such a pitch that
red squirrel campaigners are prepared to ignore anything factual that
doesn't quite suit their agenda. 

All squirrels born in this country are "native" by birth, just the
same as we are, irrespective of our colour, background or success.   

To rightly expect tolerance for our own population but condemn
wildlife on the basis of its ancestral background is extremely
hypocritical.

For the greys' side of the story read "Professor Acorn's" website on
www.grey-squirrel.org.uk 
Angus Macmillan
www.roots-of-blood.org.uk
www.killhunting.org
www.con-servation.org.uk

All truth passes through three stages:
First, it is ridiculed;
Second, it is violently opposed; and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident. 
-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 18:37:56 +0100, amacmil304@aol.com wrote:

>Squirrel Propaganda
> 
>The ongoing campaign against grey squirrels is grossly unfair and
>doesn't stack up factually.
> 
>Red squirrels are at the edge of their range in the UK, which
>stretches from here to China, and all mammals are subject to
>population fluctuations in these circumstances. If we want to assist
>the reds to survive we should be improving their habitat by planting
>trees in which they thrive, rather than wallpapering the countryside
>with native broadleaves that favour the greys' expansion. We should
>also be reducing our own intrusion into their domain. 
>
>There is no evidence that greys are transmitting squirrel-pox virus
>(SQPV) to reds as the presence of antibodies in greys merely means
>they have been in contact with the disease, most probably by
>associating with reds or possibly other rodents that were already
>infected.  The Forestry Commission have admitted that "no routine
>testing of live red squirrels is undertaken" and they "are not aware
>of any scientific evidence one way or another as to whether or not
>there is a resistant population of reds out there" so it is quite
>wrong for red squirrel groups to say that they have no immunity to the
>disease.  Indeed, the population could well have been wiped out long
>ago if there were not some form of resistance present.
>
>Early in the last century, out of forty-four districts in England
>where red squirrels had the disease only four districts had grey
>squirrels present. This suggests that SQPV has been within the red
>squirrel population for around a century at least and that grey
>squirrels are victims of a campaign of vilification.  Some people even
>have the audacity to claim that SQPV somehow arrived around the time
>it was discovered in 1983 but that is about as ridiculous as claiming
>America didn't exist before it was "discovered" by Leif Ericson.
>
>The hate campaign against grey squirrels has reached such a pitch that
>red squirrel campaigners are prepared to ignore anything factual that
>doesn't quite suit their agenda. 
>
>All squirrels born in this country are "native" by birth, just the
>same as we are, irrespective of our colour, background or success.   
>
>To rightly expect tolerance for our own population but condemn
>wildlife on the basis of its ancestral background is extremely
>hypocritical.
>
>For the greys' side of the story read "Professor Acorn's" website on
>www.grey-squirrel.org.uk 
>Angus Macmillan
>www.roots-of-blood.org.uk
>www.killhunting.org
>www.con-servation.org.uk
>

Nick Maclaren once stated the greys we naturalized natives.

In article , 
amacmil304@aol.com writes
>Squirrel Propaganda
>
>The ongoing campaign against grey squirrels is grossly unfair

Oh, diddums. It's "unfair" to kill grey squirrels, yet if they aren't 
controlled the red squirrel will become extinct.

So, that makes you in favour of the extinction of the red squirrel. Good 
for you, Angus. Nice to know where you stand.

How many grey squirrels have you saved since you started your campaign, 
Angus?

-- 
Malcolm

"Old Codger"  wrote in message 
news:at9o4411t6g5k411q4ft1unt7fe1eb9ktn@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 18:37:56 +0100, amacmil304@aol.com wrote:
>
>>Squirrel Propaganda
>>
>>The ongoing campaign against grey squirrels is grossly unfair and
>>doesn't stack up factually.
>>
<snip>

>>
>
> Nick Maclaren once stated the greys we naturalized natives.

If Nick meant that the UK population of grey squirrels had become 
naturalised, in the same way that many populations of non-indigenous flora 
and fauna are, e.g. rabbits, then he was undoubtedly correct.

On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 20:44:46 +0100, "BAC" 
wrote:

>
>"Old Codger"  wrote in message 
>news:at9o4411t6g5k411q4ft1unt7fe1eb9ktn@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 18:37:56 +0100, amacmil304@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>>Squirrel Propaganda
>>>
>>>The ongoing campaign against grey squirrels is grossly unfair and
>>>doesn't stack up factually.
>>>
><snip>
>
>>>
>>
>> Nick Maclaren once stated the greys we naturalized natives.
>
>If Nick meant that the UK population of grey squirrels had become 
>naturalised, in the same way that many populations of non-indigenous flora 
>and fauna are, e.g. rabbits, then he was undoubtedly correct. 
>

He's a troll. I doubt he has a clue what he means!

In article ,
"BAC"  writes:
|> "Old Codger"  wrote in message 
|> news:at9o4411t6g5k411q4ft1unt7fe1eb9ktn@4ax.com...
|> > On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 18:37:56 +0100, amacmil304@aol.com wrote:
|> >
|> >>Squirrel Propaganda
|> >>
|> >>The ongoing campaign against grey squirrels is grossly unfair and
|> >>doesn't stack up factually.
|> >
|> > Nick Maclaren once stated the greys we naturalized natives.
|> 
|> If Nick meant that the UK population of grey squirrels had become 
|> naturalised, in the same way that many populations of non-indigenous 
|> flora and fauna are, e.g. rabbits, then he was undoubtedly correct. 

It's somewhat hard to deny!

I have no great truck with the 'native'/'introduced' distinction as
applied to the UK, as it doesn't make much scientific or historical
sense, but the fact remains that grey squirrels are a very recent
introduction, and a threat to several other, well-established UK
species and even ecologies; and so a campaign of control (or even,
dare we say it, elimination) is justified on ecological grounds.

However, whether that is feasible is another matter.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

in 31500 20080608 223623 nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) wrote:

>I have no great truck with the 'native'/'introduced' distinction as
>applied to the UK, as it doesn't make much scientific or historical
>sense, but the fact remains that grey squirrels are a very recent
>introduction, and a threat to several other, well-established UK
>species and even ecologies; and so a campaign of control (or even,
>dare we say it, elimination) is justified on ecological grounds.

If you want to justify a cull on ecological grounds then start with humans.

"Nick Maclaren"  wrote in message 
news:g2hjcn$qn5$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk...
>
> In article ,
> "BAC"  writes:
> |> "Old Codger"  wrote in message
> |> news:at9o4411t6g5k411q4ft1unt7fe1eb9ktn@4ax.com...
> |> > On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 18:37:56 +0100, amacmil304@aol.com wrote:
> |> >
> |> >>Squirrel Propaganda
> |> >>
> |> >>The ongoing campaign against grey squirrels is grossly unfair and
> |> >>doesn't stack up factually.
> |> >
> |> > Nick Maclaren once stated the greys we naturalized natives.
> |>
> |> If Nick meant that the UK population of grey squirrels had become
> |> naturalised, in the same way that many populations of non-indigenous
> |> flora and fauna are, e.g. rabbits, then he was undoubtedly correct.
>
> It's somewhat hard to deny!
>
> I have no great truck with the 'native'/'introduced' distinction as
> applied to the UK, as it doesn't make much scientific or historical
> sense, but the fact remains that grey squirrels are a very recent
> introduction, and a threat to several other, well-established UK
> species and even ecologies; and so a campaign of control (or even,
> dare we say it, elimination) is justified on ecological grounds.
>

To which well-established UK species (other than the remaining remnants of 
the red squirrel population) and ecologies are grey squirrels considered a 
threat?

> However, whether that is feasible is another matter.
>

I doubt whether elimination would be feasible. The 'free cartridge' squirrel 
clubs and bounties of the 1940s and 50s apparently had little effect, and 
the current population is so widespread and numerous that the scale of the 
task would be unjustifiable, especially in view of the opposition it would 
encounter.

uk.environment.conservation, scot.politics, alt.politics.british,
uk.business.agriculture, uk.rec.walking, uk.local.scot-highlands,
uk.rec.natural-history, uk.sci.weather, demon.local, demon.local

 Old Codger

In article ,
"BAC"  writes:
|> 
|> To which well-established UK species (other than the remaining remnants of 
|> the red squirrel population) and ecologies are grey squirrels considered a 
|> threat?

Hazel, dormouse and possibly others.

One point is that large numbers of grey squirrels (and they have no
natural predators of consequence in the UK) take most of the hazel
nuts before they are ripe.  This has been claimed to threaten the
existence of the remaining hazel woods, and even hazel as a common
shrub in some areas.

The other is that, by taking most of the hazel nuts and similar foods,
they prevent dormice fattening themselves adequately for the winter.
Dormice are, after all, ecologically closer to small squirrels than
mice.

It is possible that similar effects may apply to other species, and
there is also the point that grey squirrels are the only common UK
arboreal mammal that regularly eats bird's eggs.  Birds that make
nests out of reach of cats are still vulnerable to grey squirrels;
whether that is a significant threat to any species, I don't know.

|> I doubt whether elimination would be feasible. The 'free cartridge' squirrel 
|> clubs and bounties of the 1940s and 50s apparently had little effect, and 
|> the current population is so widespread and numerous that the scale of the 
|> task would be unjustifiable, especially in view of the opposition it would 
|> encounter. 

Agreed.  Personally, I think that we need beech martens, but there
is not much more chance of that :-)


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 10:26:51 +0100, "BAC" 
wrote:

>
>"Nick Maclaren"  wrote in message 
>news:g2hjcn$qn5$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk...
>>
>> In article ,
>> "BAC"  writes:
>> |> "Old Codger"  wrote in message
>> |> news:at9o4411t6g5k411q4ft1unt7fe1eb9ktn@4ax.com...
>> |> > On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 18:37:56 +0100, amacmil304@aol.com wrote:
>> |> >
>> |> >>Squirrel Propaganda
>> |> >>
>> |> >>The ongoing campaign against grey squirrels is grossly unfair and
>> |> >>doesn't stack up factually.
>> |> >
>> |> > Nick Maclaren once stated the greys we naturalized natives.
>> |>
>> |> If Nick meant that the UK population of grey squirrels had become
>> |> naturalised, in the same way that many populations of non-indigenous
>> |> flora and fauna are, e.g. rabbits, then he was undoubtedly correct.
>>
>> It's somewhat hard to deny!
>>
>> I have no great truck with the 'native'/'introduced' distinction as
>> applied to the UK, as it doesn't make much scientific or historical
>> sense, but the fact remains that grey squirrels are a very recent
>> introduction, and a threat to several other, well-established UK
>> species and even ecologies; and so a campaign of control (or even,
>> dare we say it, elimination) is justified on ecological grounds.
>>
>
>To which well-established UK species (other than the remaining remnants of 
>the red squirrel population) and ecologies are grey squirrels considered a 
>threat?
>
>> However, whether that is feasible is another matter.
>>
>
>I doubt whether elimination would be feasible. The 'free cartridge' squirrel 
>clubs and bounties of the 1940s and 50s apparently had little effect,

It did on the reds!

> and 
>the current population is so widespread and numerous that the scale of the 
>task would be unjustifiable, especially in view of the opposition it would 
>encounter. 
>

> I doubt whether elimination would be feasible. The 'free cartridge' squirrel 
> clubs and bounties of the 1940s and 50s apparently had little effect, and 
> the current population is so widespread and numerous that the scale of the 
> task would be unjustifiable, especially in view of the opposition it would 
> encounter. 

But think of the pleasure it would bring to millions !

-- 
Boo

On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 12:42:06 +0100, Boo
 wrote:

>> I doubt whether elimination would be feasible. The 'free cartridge' squirrel 
>> clubs and bounties of the 1940s and 50s apparently had little effect, and 
>> the current population is so widespread and numerous that the scale of the 
>> task would be unjustifiable, especially in view of the opposition it would 
>> encounter. 
>
>But think of the pleasure it would bring to millions !

I doubt there are that many weirdo's out there!

"Boo"  wrote in message 
news:g2j4ue$rbk$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
>> I doubt whether elimination would be feasible. The 'free cartridge' 
>> squirrel clubs and bounties of the 1940s and 50s apparently had little 
>> effect, and the current population is so widespread and numerous that the 
>> scale of the task would be unjustifiable, especially in view of the 
>> opposition it would encounter.
>
> But think of the pleasure it would bring to millions !
>

Probably not if they had to pay for it!

"Weatherlawyer"  wrote in message 
news:479c8901-a9c4-457b-b839-5e96ed3348e5@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> uk.environment.conservation, scot.politics, alt.politics.british,
> uk.business.agriculture, uk.rec.walking, uk.local.scot-highlands,
> uk.rec.natural-history, uk.sci.weather, demon.local, demon.local
>
> Old Codger

So what are you supposedly trying to say, the fact he's (Old Codger) posted 
to those ng's ?
or what? Do you expect ppl to be mind readers of your quotes I'm sure nobody 
has a clue
what you're trying to get across But then thats usual with you anyway.

DaveR

On Jun 9, 1:08 pm, "BAC"  wrote:
> "Boo"  wrote in message
>
> news:g2j4ue$rbk$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
>
> >> I doubt whether elimination would be feasible. The 'free cartridge'
> >> squirrel clubs and bounties of the 1940s and 50s apparently had little
> >> effect, and the current population is so widespread and numerous that the
> >> scale of the task would be unjustifiable, especially in view of the
> >> opposition it would encounter.
>
> > But think of the pleasure it would bring to millions !
>
> Probably not if they had to pay for it!

On Jun 9, 1:08 pm, "BAC"  wrote:
> "Boo"  wrote in message
>
> news:g2j4ue$rbk$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
>
> >> I doubt whether elimination would be feasible. The 'free cartridge'
> >> squirrel clubs and bounties of the 1940s and 50s apparently had little
> >> effect, and the current population is so widespread and numerous that the
> >> scale of the task would be unjustifiable, especially in view of the
> >> opposition it would encounter.
>
> > But think of the pleasure it would bring to millions !
>
> Probably not if they had to pay for it!

Greys are a serious threat to native ecology, yes including native
woodland birds. They also make good eating. Its not 'weird' to hunt
and eat grey squirrel meat. To block this reality and suggest things
like planting 'trees that red squirrels like' (other than the native
tree cover), i.e. (basically) larch and scots pine (scots pine in a
genetically identical and non native setting) is just fuking
ridiculas. They are a native species and do best in the native
greenwood. The grey is an invasive and destructive pest in many ways,
to native ecology. THAT IS THE REALITY. Enough. The reality:

http://groups.google.com/group/uk.environment.conservation/browse_thread/thread/430ace15b39f36e1#

The Animal rights loonys that are arguing for the grey are just
basically locked onto their view, coming from the viewpoint that 'no
animals at all should be killed anywhere in the world', and everything
and anything can be used to propagate their    view - facts and
evidence can be ignored and distorted ..I think that they are even
deluding themselves. Greys are a serious threat to native ecology.
THAT IS THE REALITY OF THE SITUATION DUMBED DOWN IDIOT. ..and as for
providing nuts for you vegan diet...well with grey squirrel execution
you just will not have any harvest at all. THAT IS THE REALITY OF THE
SITUATION. Apart from on Anglesey where the greys have been wiped out.

Honestly, some people, living in a total dream world.

On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 02:05:05 -0700 (PDT), grimus107@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

>On Jun 9, 1:08 pm, "BAC"  wrote:
>> "Boo"  wrote in message
>>
>> news:g2j4ue$rbk$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
>>
>> >> I doubt whether elimination would be feasible. The 'free cartridge'
>> >> squirrel clubs and bounties of the 1940s and 50s apparently had little
>> >> effect, and the current population is so widespread and numerous that the
>> >> scale of the task would be unjustifiable, especially in view of the
>> >> opposition it would encounter.
>>
>> > But think of the pleasure it would bring to millions !
>>
>> Probably not if they had to pay for it!
>
>On Jun 9, 1:08 pm, "BAC"  wrote:
>> "Boo"  wrote in message
>>
>> news:g2j4ue$rbk$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
>>
>> >> I doubt whether elimination would be feasible. The 'free cartridge'
>> >> squirrel clubs and bounties of the 1940s and 50s apparently had little
>> >> effect, and the current population is so widespread and numerous that the
>> >> scale of the task would be unjustifiable, especially in view of the
>> >> opposition it would encounter.
>>
>> > But think of the pleasure it would bring to millions !
>>
>> Probably not if they had to pay for it!
>
>Greys are a serious threat

The only serious threat we have is in society allowing lunatics like
you to breed!

Our local woods has had greys for over 60 years. We also have trees,
birds,small mammals and an ecology that is perfectly natural and doing
very well thanks.

That's probably due in part to the fact that pro hunt idiots like you
are excluded from the woods, as you are from most of *normal* society.

Stick to your dirty magazines and darkened rooms. Do us all a favour.

On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 10:28:13 +0100, Old Codger
 wrote:

>On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 02:05:05 -0700 (PDT), grimus107@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
>>On Jun 9, 1:08 pm, "BAC"  wrote:
>>> "Boo"  wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:g2j4ue$rbk$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
>>>
>>> >> I doubt whether elimination would be feasible. The 'free cartridge'
>>> >> squirrel clubs and bounties of the 1940s and 50s apparently had little
>>> >> effect, and the current population is so widespread and numerous that the
>>> >> scale of the task would be unjustifiable, especially in view of the
>>> >> opposition it would encounter.
>>>
>>> > But think of the pleasure it would bring to millions !
>>>
>>> Probably not if they had to pay for it!
>>
>>On Jun 9, 1:08 pm, "BAC"  wrote:
>>> "Boo"  wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:g2j4ue$rbk$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
>>>
>>> >> I doubt whether elimination would be feasible. The 'free cartridge'
>>> >> squirrel clubs and bounties of the 1940s and 50s apparently had little
>>> >> effect, and the current population is so widespread and numerous that the
>>> >> scale of the task would be unjustifiable, especially in view of the
>>> >> opposition it would encounter.
>>>
>>> > But think of the pleasure it would bring to millions !
>>>
>>> Probably not if they had to pay for it!
>>
>>Greys are a serious threat
>
>The only serious threat we have is in society allowing lunatics like
>you to breed!
>
>Our local woods has had greys for over 60 years. We also have trees,
>birds,small mammals and an ecology that is perfectly natural and doing
>very well thanks.
>
>That's probably due in part to the fact that pro hunt idiots like you
>are excluded from the woods, as you are from most of *normal* society.
>
>Stick to your dirty magazines and darkened rooms. Do us all a favour.


Speaking of NUTS it's a shame we cant introduce some non native
species that would rid us of the loony tunes!

On Jun 13, 10:31 am, Old Codger  wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 10:28:13 +0100, Old Codger
>
>
>
>  wrote:
> >On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 02:05:05 -0700 (PDT), grimus...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
> >>On Jun 9, 1:08 pm, "BAC"  wrote:
> >>> "Boo"  wrote in message
>
> >>>news:g2j4ue$rbk$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
>
> >>> >> I doubt whether elimination would be feasible. The 'free cartridge'
> >>> >> squirrel clubs and bounties of the 1940s and 50s apparently had little
> >>> >> effect, and the current population is so widespread and numerous that the
> >>> >> scale of the task would be unjustifiable, especially in view of the
> >>> >> opposition it would encounter.
>
> >>> > But think of the pleasure it would bring to millions !
>
> >>> Probably not if they had to pay for it!
>
> >>On Jun 9, 1:08 pm, "BAC"  wrote:
> >>> "Boo"  wrote in message
>
> >>>news:g2j4ue$rbk$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
>
> >>> >> I doubt whether elimination would be feasible. The 'free cartridge'
> >>> >> squirrel clubs and bounties of the 1940s and 50s apparently had little
> >>> >> effect, and the current population is so widespread and numerous that the
> >>> >> scale of the task would be unjustifiable, especially in view of the
> >>> >> opposition it would encounter.
>
> >>> > But think of the pleasure it would bring to millions !
>
> >>> Probably not if they had to pay for it!
>
> >>Greys are a serious threat
>
> >The only serious threat we have is in society allowing lunatics like
> >you to breed!
>
> >Our local woods has had greys for over 60 years. We also have trees,
> >birds,small mammals and an ecology that is perfectly natural and doing
> >very well thanks.
>
> >That's probably due in part to the fact that pro hunt idiots like you
> >are excluded from the woods, as you are from most of *normal* society.
>
> >Stick to your dirty magazines and darkened rooms. Do us all a favour.
>
> Speaking of NUTS it's a shame we cant introduce some non native
> species that would rid us of the loony tunes!


Its not a matter of being 'pro hunt' ..as if it was a black and white
issue, despite what the 'animal rights hegmony' trys to portray. Out
in the real world, reality is not like that. Hunting for food is
ok...especially, in fact definity in the case of an invasion non
native species - which in reality, in the real world, as can be seen
in the articles from the journals I posted previously in this thread,
the grey squirrel is. So instead of actually having some respect for
the truth, instead of having some respect for someone trying to grow
nut crops on a real world level, the animal rights hegmony tries to
turn me into a pervert!

You people really are a bunch of fuking cases arn't you.

Now go back and read carefully the posts from the forestry/nut growing
journals, stop egoising, let go of the animal rights skitz, and
educate yourself Old Bastard. Likewise any other AR cases out there.

Ordinary punters need to read this material also, it is an education
and people need to know about the damage the grey squirrel is doing.
There needs to be a program of execution of the grey squirrel, and
people need to know that its good to eat! Check out this link for
example:

http://lifeandhealth.guardian.co.uk/food/recipe/0,,2279377,00.html

..but, of course, for the animal rights/ALF loony, no animal can be
killed anywhere on the planet, for any reason whatsoever for on pain
on being made into a 'pervert'. So carry on stuffing soya grown on
land that was previously wildwood rainforest down your neck whilst
self righteously denouncing people hunting grey/black squirrel as
perverts then, total and complete fuking idiots.

STUPID FUKERS

Blessings.

wrote in message 
news:a385342d-4b8a-49fe-8caf-174b3a16184f@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 9, 1:08 pm, "BAC"  wrote:
>> "Boo"  wrote in message
>>
>> news:g2j4ue$rbk$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
>>
>> >> I doubt whether elimination would be feasible. The 'free cartridge'
>> >> squirrel clubs and bounties of the 1940s and 50s apparently had little
>> >> effect, and the current population is so widespread and numerous that 
>> >> the
>> >> scale of the task would be unjustifiable, especially in view of the
>> >> opposition it would encounter.
>>
>> > But think of the pleasure it would bring to millions !
>>
>> Probably not if they had to pay for it!
>
> On Jun 9, 1:08 pm, "BAC"  wrote:
>> "Boo"  wrote in message
>>
>> news:g2j4ue$rbk$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
>>
>> >> I doubt whether elimination would be feasible. The 'free cartridge'
>> >> squirrel clubs and bounties of the 1940s and 50s apparently had little
>> >> effect, and the current population is so widespread and numerous that 
>> >> the
>> >> scale of the task would be unjustifiable, especially in view of the
>> >> opposition it would encounter.
>>
>> > But think of the pleasure it would bring to millions !
>>
>> Probably not if they had to pay for it!
>
> Greys are a serious threat to native ecology, yes including native
> woodland birds. They also make good eating. Its not 'weird' to hunt
> and eat grey squirrel meat. To block this reality and suggest things
> like planting 'trees that red squirrels like' (other than the native
> tree cover), i.e. (basically) larch and scots pine (scots pine in a
> genetically identical and non native setting) is just fuking
> ridiculas. They are a native species and do best in the native
> greenwood. The grey is an invasive and destructive pest in many ways,
> to native ecology. THAT IS THE REALITY. Enough. The reality:
>
<snip>

>
> Honestly, some people, living in a total dream world.
>

Yes, including those who seem to think it would be feasible/affordable to 
eliminate the grey squirrel from the UK. The reality of the situation is 
that, in most of England and Wales, where there is a huge naturalised 
population of grey squirrels, there is insufficient political will (or 
available finance) to see through a programme of extermination.

Old Codger  wrote in
news:j5f4545mskv978vqar1vaor08243re97fu@4ax.com: 

> On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 02:05:05 -0700 (PDT), grimus107@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> 
>>On Jun 9, 1:08 pm, "BAC"  wrote:
>>> "Boo"  wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:g2j4ue$rbk$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
>>>
>>> >> I doubt whether elimination would be feasible. The 'free
>>> >> cartridge' squirrel clubs and bounties of the 1940s and 50s
>>> >> apparently had little effect, and the current population is so
>>> >> widespread and numerous that the scale of the task would be
>>> >> unjustifiable, especially in view of the opposition it would
>>> >> encounter. 
>>>
>>> > But think of the pleasure it would bring to millions !
>>>
>>> Probably not if they had to pay for it!
>>
>>On Jun 9, 1:08 pm, "BAC"  wrote:
>>> "Boo"  wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:g2j4ue$rbk$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
>>>
>>> >> I doubt whether elimination would be feasible. The 'free
>>> >> cartridge' squirrel clubs and bounties of the 1940s and 50s
>>> >> apparently had little effect, and the current population is so
>>> >> widespread and numerous that the scale of the task would be
>>> >> unjustifiable, especially in view of the opposition it would
>>> >> encounter. 
>>>
>>> > But think of the pleasure it would bring to millions !
>>>
>>> Probably not if they had to pay for it!
>>
>>Greys are a serious threat
> 
> The only serious

alt.net remailer troll. Ignore.

In article ,
   BAC  wrote:


> >
> > Honestly, some people, living in a total dream world.
> >

> Yes, including those who seem to think it would be feasible/affordable
> to eliminate the grey squirrel from the UK. The reality of the
> situation is that, in most of England and Wales, where there is a huge
> naturalised population of grey squirrels, there is insufficient
> political will (or available finance) to see through a programme of
> extermination. 

But control of them is quite feasible.  I would like to see a stronger
effort in certain areas, where Red Squirrels survive.  I would then like
to see if the declining birds such as Spotted Flycatcher, whose nests are
particularly prone to predation by greys benefit as well.

"Robert Seago"  wrote in message 
news:4faeefb248rjseago@zetnet.co.uk...
> In article ,
>   BAC  wrote:
>
>
>> >
>> > Honestly, some people, living in a total dream world.
>> >
>
>> Yes, including those who seem to think it would be feasible/affordable
>> to eliminate the grey squirrel from the UK. The reality of the
>> situation is that, in most of England and Wales, where there is a huge
>> naturalised population of grey squirrels, there is insufficient
>> political will (or available finance) to see through a programme of
>> extermination.
>
> But control of them is quite feasible.  I would like to see a stronger
> effort in certain areas, where Red Squirrels survive.  I would then like
> to see if the declining birds such as Spotted Flycatcher, whose nests are
> particularly prone to predation by greys benefit as well.
>

Yes, but there's a huge difference, IMO, between focused control and UKwide 
elimination. The former is probably feasible, given a perpetual commitment 
to the task, the latter almost certainly isn't.

WRT spotted flycatcher, the mind boggles to think of the perils faced by 
such a small bird making such a long annual migration between Britain and 
sub-Saharan Africa.

On Jun 13, 9:20 pm, Robert Seago  wrote:
> In article ,
>    BAC  wrote:

> > The reality of the
> > situation is that, in most of England and Wales, where there is a
> > huge naturalised population of grey squirrels, there is insufficient
> > political will (or available finance) to see through a programme of
> > extermination.
>
> But control of them is quite feasible.  I would like to see a stronger
> effort in certain areas, where Red Squirrels survive.  I would then like
> to see if the declining birds such as Spotted Flycatcher, whose nests
> are particularly prone to predation by greys benefit as well.

Spotted Flycatcher can be easily persuaded to nest in open-fronted
boxes if the lip of the box is made lower than in commercially
available boxes. The nest can then be protected against many predators
through use of a barrier, such as wire mesh big enough for the SFs to
pass.

In article , BAC
 wrote:

> WRT spotted flycatcher, the mind boggles to think of the perils faced by
> such a small bird making such a long annual migration between Britain
> and sub-Saharan Africa. 


Where they nest on the fork of branches, almost certainly makes their
nests extremely vulnerable to the squirrels.  (And yes, I'm sure they were
to Reds, but Reds were never so numerous as the Greys are now.

"Robert Seago"  wrote in message 
news:4faff63e85rjseago@zetnet.co.uk...
> In article , BAC
>  wrote:
>
>> WRT spotted flycatcher, the mind boggles to think of the perils faced by
>> such a small bird making such a long annual migration between Britain
>> and sub-Saharan Africa.
>
>
> Where they nest on the fork of branches, almost certainly makes their
> nests extremely vulnerable to the squirrels.  (And yes, I'm sure they were
> to Reds, but Reds were never so numerous as the Greys are now.
>

Perhaps it does, but I doubt whether grey squirrel predation is the only 
factor at play in the suspected change in first year mortality rates over 
the past 50 years or so. Some birds ringed in North Wales have been reported 
in South Africa, which, obviously, entails a very long and perilous journey.

In article , BAC
 wrote:


> Perhaps it does, but I doubt whether grey squirrel predation is the only
> factor at play in the suspected change in first year mortality rates
> over the past 50 years or so. Some birds ringed in North Wales have
> been reported in South Africa, which, obviously, entails a very long
> and perilous journey. 
They have always suffered the problems of that journey though.

Clearly I have no evidence and there is probably none about this, but my
reserve probably never had RS, and certainly there were no greys when I
started there.  After they arrived I had to abandon nest boxes for tits,
as they were all prised apart for the young in them.  Now tits find enough
natural holes in the trees at the reerve to do well, but I find it
difficult to believe that the rampant numbers of GS wouldn't have a big
negative effect on birds such as SC. They have ceased to breed there now. 
I have certainly seen the nests of Long Tailed Tits predated by Grey
Squirrel, though again that species are doing very well.

I return to my original posting.  I would like to see research done in
Northumberland and Durham where it sounds as though concerted effort is
reducing their numbers of GS, on the woodland birds as well as on the Red
Squirrel.

"Robert Seago"  wrote in message 
news:4fb07934edrjseago@zetnet.co.uk...
> In article , BAC
>  wrote:
>
>
>> Perhaps it does, but I doubt whether grey squirrel predation is the only
>> factor at play in the suspected change in first year mortality rates
>> over the past 50 years or so. Some birds ringed in North Wales have
>> been reported in South Africa, which, obviously, entails a very long
>> and perilous journey.
> They have always suffered the problems of that journey though.

I think it may be possible that circumstances might have changed for the 
worse somewhere along their route through Europe, over the Med and down the 
length of Africa (and back) over the past sixty odd years, and that may 
partly account for the suspected worsening of the first year survival rate 
held responsible by some for the population's downwards trend.

>
> Clearly I have no evidence and there is probably none about this, but my
> reserve probably never had RS, and certainly there were no greys when I
> started there.  After they arrived I had to abandon nest boxes for tits,
> as they were all prised apart for the young in them.  Now tits find enough
> natural holes in the trees at the reerve to do well, but I find it
> difficult to believe that the rampant numbers of GS wouldn't have a big
> negative effect on birds such as SC. They have ceased to breed there now.
> I have certainly seen the nests of Long Tailed Tits predated by Grey
> Squirrel, though again that species are doing very well.

I'm glad to hear they are doing well, in spite of the grey squirrel 
presence, and the absence of nesting boxes.

>
> I return to my original posting.  I would like to see research done in
> Northumberland and Durham where it sounds as though concerted effort is
> reducing their numbers of GS, on the woodland birds as well as on the Red
> Squirrel.
>

Seems a bit late to do 'before and after' research, if the grey squirrels 
have already been eradicated.

In article , BAC
 wrote:

> > They have always suffered the problems of that journey though.

> I think it may be possible that circumstances might have changed for the
> worse somewhere along their route through Europe, over the Med and down
> the length of Africa (and back) over the past sixty odd years, and that
> may partly account for the suspected worsening of the first year
> survival rate held responsible by some for the population's downwards
> trend.
It may.
> >
> > Clearly I have no evidence and there is probably none about this, but
> > my reserve probably never had RS, and certainly there were no greys
> > when I started there.  After they arrived I had to abandon nest boxes
> > for tits, as they were all prised apart for the young in them.  Now
> > tits find enough natural holes in the trees at the reerve to do well,
> > but I find it difficult to believe that the rampant numbers of GS
> > wouldn't have a big negative effect on birds such as SC. They have
> > ceased to breed there now. I have certainly seen the nests of Long
> > Tailed Tits predated by Grey Squirrel, though again that species are
> > doing very well.

> I'm glad to hear they are doing well, in spite of the grey squirrel
> presence, and the absence of nesting boxes.
It is a surprise to many that the reserve which is really scrub rather
than mature trees, has enough nesting holes but it does, and probably the
density of breeding birds would not get higher with a lot of boxes. 
Squirrels can't break them open either.
> > I return to my original posting.  I would like to see research done in
> > Northumberland and Durham where it sounds as though concerted effort
> > is reducing their numbers of GS, on the woodland birds as well as on
> > the Red Squirrel.
> >

> Seems a bit late to do 'before and after' research, if the grey
> squirrels have already been eradicated. 
I don't think they are eradicated, but if as has been suggested there has
been a considerable reduction, and it is largely self financing it should
be possible to move into North Yorkshire or Cumbria to do before and after.