On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 09:05:06 -0800 (PST), "John M."
 wrote:

>On Feb 8, 10:50 am, amacmil...@aol.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 01:36:32 -0800 (PST), "John M."
>>
>>
>>
>>  wrote:
>> >On Feb 7, 11:29 pm, amacmil...@aol.com wrote:
>> >> On Thu, 7 Feb 2008 09:15:43 -0800 (PST), "John M."
>>
>> >>  wrote:
>> >> >On Feb 7, 6:07 pm, amacmil...@aol.com wrote:
>> >> >> On Thu, 7 Feb 2008 03:25:45 -0800 (PST), "John M."
>>
>> >> >>  wrote:
>> >> >> >On Feb 7, 11:34 am, amacmil...@aol.com wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> >> >> Hunting with hounds was banned completely.
>>
>> >> >Yet hunting of foxes by lamping, etc. wasn't, and seems to have
>> >> >increased. Lots of mangy, limping foxes around to show what useless
>> >> >shots most "hunters" are.
>>
>> >> Of course they are and that's why shooting should be banned as well.
>>
>> >Unrealistic to expect this.
>>
>> You probably thought this about hunting with hounds a few years ago.
>> The ban has changed things dramatically.
>>
>> >Better to try for stronger regulation of
>> >gun users in the first instance.
>>
>> Not at all.
>>
>> >Don't you care about a coming
>> >generation of wounded foxes living in misery, simply because A/R
>> >takes an inflexible position on hunting?
>>
>> This is why it needs banning.
>
>Politics ensure that no blanket ban of the kind you want will appear
>in our lifetime. 

In what way?

>Tightening up up the legislation is always feasible
>using diligence coupled with rational argument.

There is a rational argument that shooting is cruel.  Even the BASC's
own survey and vets' evidence at the Burns Inquiry have confirmed
this.





Angus Macmillan
www.roots-of-blood.org.uk
www.killhunting.org
www.con-servation.org.uk

All truth passes through three stages:
First, it is ridiculed;
Second, it is violently opposed; and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident. 
-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

On Sat, 9 Feb 2008 10:05:04 +0000, Malcolm
 wrote:

>
>In article 
>, John 
>M.  writes
>>On Feb 9, 12:34 am, amacmil...@aol.com wrote:
>>> On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 09:05:06 -0800 (PST), "John M."
>>>
>>>
>>> There is a rational argument that shooting is cruel.  Even the BASC's
>>> own survey and vets' evidence at the Burns Inquiry have confirmed
>>> this.
>>
>>There is a consensus among rational people that kosher and halal
>>butchery is cruel. There isn't a hope in hell of having it banned
>>until you convince the religious bigots that carry it out of this. So
>>it is with shooting. If BASC recognise it is cruel, but wish to
>>continue to shoot, they should be in the forefront of any chance to
>>change existing legislation with regard to the practice. Have you
>>talked to them about it?
>>
>Just a thought, John, but as this is Angus making a claim about BASC's 
>survey, the first thing you should ask for is the reference which shows 
>that the survey did indeed confirm that "shooting is cruel".


No need.  The survey that was leaked showed that up to 40% of
gamebirds were injured rather than killed outright by shooters.



Angus Macmillan
www.roots-of-blood.org.uk
www.killhunting.org
www.con-servation.org.uk

All truth passes through three stages:
First, it is ridiculed;
Second, it is violently opposed; and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident. 
-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

On Sat, 9 Feb 2008 12:19:28 +0000, Malcolm
 wrote:

>
>In article , 
>amacmil304@aol.com writes
>>On Sat, 9 Feb 2008 10:05:04 +0000, Malcolm
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>In article
>>>, John
>>>M.  writes
>>>>On Feb 9, 12:34 am, amacmil...@aol.com wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 09:05:06 -0800 (PST), "John M."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There is a rational argument that shooting is cruel.  Even the BASC's
>>>>> own survey and vets' evidence at the Burns Inquiry have confirmed
>>>>> this.
>>>>
>>>>There is a consensus among rational people that kosher and halal
>>>>butchery is cruel. There isn't a hope in hell of having it banned
>>>>until you convince the religious bigots that carry it out of this. So
>>>>it is with shooting. If BASC recognise it is cruel, but wish to
>>>>continue to shoot, they should be in the forefront of any chance to
>>>>change existing legislation with regard to the practice. Have you
>>>>talked to them about it?
>>>>
>>>Just a thought, John, but as this is Angus making a claim about BASC's
>>>survey, the first thing you should ask for is the reference which shows
>>>that the survey did indeed confirm that "shooting is cruel".
>>
>>
>>No need.  The survey that was leaked showed that up to 40% of
>>gamebirds were injured rather than killed outright by shooters.
>>
>You claimed that "the BASC's own survey" confirmed that "shooting is 
>cruel".

They commissioned it.

>
>I suggested that you should be asked for the reference.
>
>Typically, you have failed to produce it.


It's in the public domain.

Look it up yourself.


Angus Macmillan
www.roots-of-blood.org.uk
www.killhunting.org
www.con-servation.org.uk

All truth passes through three stages:
First, it is ridiculed;
Second, it is violently opposed; and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident. 
-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

On Sat, 9 Feb 2008 13:50:27 +0000, Malcolm
 wrote:

>
>In article , 
>amacmil304@aol.com writes
>>On Sat, 9 Feb 2008 12:19:28 +0000, Malcolm
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>In article ,
>>>amacmil304@aol.com writes
>>>>On Sat, 9 Feb 2008 10:05:04 +0000, Malcolm
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>In article
>>>>>, John
>>>>>M.  writes
>>>>>>On Feb 9, 12:34 am, amacmil...@aol.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 09:05:06 -0800 (PST), "John M."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is a rational argument that shooting is cruel.  Even the BASC's
>>>>>>> own survey and vets' evidence at the Burns Inquiry have confirmed
>>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>There is a consensus among rational people that kosher and halal
>>>>>>butchery is cruel. There isn't a hope in hell of having it banned
>>>>>>until you convince the religious bigots that carry it out of this. So
>>>>>>it is with shooting. If BASC recognise it is cruel, but wish to
>>>>>>continue to shoot, they should be in the forefront of any chance to
>>>>>>change existing legislation with regard to the practice. Have you
>>>>>>talked to them about it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>Just a thought, John, but as this is Angus making a claim about BASC's
>>>>>survey, the first thing you should ask for is the reference which shows
>>>>>that the survey did indeed confirm that "shooting is cruel".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>No need.  The survey that was leaked showed that up to 40% of
>>>>gamebirds were injured rather than killed outright by shooters.
>>>>
>>>You claimed that "the BASC's own survey" confirmed that "shooting is
>>>cruel".
>>
>>They commissioned it.
>>
>Do they use the phrase "shooting is cruel"?

Up to 40% injured is cruel.  Their survey confirms this.

>
>>>
>>>I suggested that you should be asked for the reference.
>>>
>>>Typically, you have failed to produce it.
>>
>>
>>It's in the public domain.
>>
>>Look it up yourself.
>>
>So you don't know where it is. Thought not.

Do your own research







Angus Macmillan
www.roots-of-blood.org.uk
www.killhunting.org
www.con-servation.org.uk

All truth passes through three stages:
First, it is ridiculed;
Second, it is violently opposed; and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident. 
-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

On Sat, 9 Feb 2008 17:09:36 +0000, Malcolm
 wrote:

>
>In article , 
>amacmil304@aol.com writes
>>On Sat, 9 Feb 2008 13:50:27 +0000, Malcolm
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>In article ,
>>>amacmil304@aol.com writes
>>>>On Sat, 9 Feb 2008 12:19:28 +0000, Malcolm
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>In article ,
>>>>>amacmil304@aol.com writes
>>>>>>On Sat, 9 Feb 2008 10:05:04 +0000, Malcolm
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In article
>>>>>>>, John
>>>>>>>M.  writes
>>>>>>>>On Feb 9, 12:34 am, amacmil...@aol.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 09:05:06 -0800 (PST), "John M."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There is a rational argument that shooting is cruel.  Even the BASC's
>>>>>>>>> own survey and vets' evidence at the Burns Inquiry have confirmed
>>>>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>There is a consensus among rational people that kosher and halal
>>>>>>>>butchery is cruel. There isn't a hope in hell of having it banned
>>>>>>>>until you convince the religious bigots that carry it out of this. So
>>>>>>>>it is with shooting. If BASC recognise it is cruel, but wish to
>>>>>>>>continue to shoot, they should be in the forefront of any chance to
>>>>>>>>change existing legislation with regard to the practice. Have you
>>>>>>>>talked to them about it?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Just a thought, John, but as this is Angus making a claim about BASC's
>>>>>>>survey, the first thing you should ask for is the reference which shows
>>>>>>>that the survey did indeed confirm that "shooting is cruel".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>No need.  The survey that was leaked showed that up to 40% of
>>>>>>gamebirds were injured rather than killed outright by shooters.
>>>>>>
>>>>>You claimed that "the BASC's own survey" confirmed that "shooting is
>>>>>cruel".
>>>>
>>>>They commissioned it.
>>>>
>>>Do they use the phrase "shooting is cruel"?
>>
>>Up to 40% injured is cruel.  Their survey confirms this.
>>
>I see that, unsurprisingly, you have indulged in your usual habit of 
>failing to answer a straightforward question, so I'll ask it again.
>
>Do BASC use the phrase "shooting is cruel", in their report.
>

Where did I say they did?   Read what I wrote.



>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I suggested that you should be asked for the reference.
>>>>>
>>>>>Typically, you have failed to produce it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>It's in the public domain.
>>>>
>>>>Look it up yourself.
>>>>
>>>So you don't know where it is. Thought not.
>>
>>Do your own research
>>
>So you don't know.

Of course I do and so do you.



Angus Macmillan
www.roots-of-blood.org.uk
www.killhunting.org
www.con-servation.org.uk

All truth passes through three stages:
First, it is ridiculed;
Second, it is violently opposed; and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident. 
-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)