I installed a couple of IP44-rated low-energy floodlights recently.
They were installed on the front and side walls of my house about 10
feet off the ground.

Within three weeks one of them stopped working.  On investigation I
found both lights had about half a pint of water inside them!

The supplier is taking them back and providing a full refund, but they
have said that "IP44-rated fittings are at the lower end of the IP
rating system and are not suitable for heavy and extended exposure to
rain".

Eh???

I thought IP44 was suitable for external use unless it was a very
exposed position (which this is not).  I have several IP44-rated
bulkhead lights in similar positions that are still in use after many
years exposure and show no signs of letting in any water at all, yet
these units were a quarter full after a short period during which we
have only had a little light rain.!

I thought IP44 provides protection against water spray from any
direction, whereas IP45 provides protection against low pressure water
jets from any direction.

Is rain to be considered a low-pressure water jet?

In article ,
	Mike H  writes:
> I installed a couple of IP44-rated low-energy floodlights recently.
> They were installed on the front and side walls of my house about 10
> feet off the ground.
> 
> Within three weeks one of them stopped working.  On investigation I
> found both lights had about half a pint of water inside them!
> 
> The supplier is taking them back and providing a full refund, but they
> have said that "IP44-rated fittings are at the lower end of the IP
> rating system and are not suitable for heavy and extended exposure to
> rain".
> 
> Eh???
> 
> I thought IP44 was suitable for external use unless it was a very
> exposed position (which this is not).  I have several IP44-rated
> bulkhead lights in similar positions that are still in use after many
> years exposure and show no signs of letting in any water at all, yet
> these units were a quarter full after a short period during which we
> have only had a little light rain.!
> 
> I thought IP44 provides protection against water spray from any
> direction, whereas IP45 provides protection against low pressure water
> jets from any direction.
> 
> Is rain to be considered a low-pressure water jet?

IP44 is at the lower end of the range. Were you supposed to drill
a drain hole in the lowest part as mounted? That's common with
accessories rated around IP44 - they aren't sealed against water
(or moisture condensation), but provide for it to drain away
without building up to dangerous levels.

-- 
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Sep 29, 5:42 pm, and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel)
wrote:
> In article ,
>         Mike H  writes:
>
>
>
> > I installed a couple of IP44-rated low-energy floodlights recently.
> > They were installed on the front and side walls of my house about 10
> > feet off the ground.
>
> > Within three weeks one of them stopped working.  On investigation I
> > found both lights had about half a pint of water inside them!
>
> > The supplier is taking them back and providing a full refund, but they
> > have said that "IP44-rated fittings are at the lower end of the IP
> > rating system and are not suitable for heavy and extended exposure to
> > rain".
>
> > Eh???
>
> > I thought IP44 was suitable for external use unless it was a very
> > exposed position (which this is not).  I have several IP44-rated
> > bulkhead lights in similar positions that are still in use after many
> > years exposure and show no signs of letting in any water at all, yet
> > these units were a quarter full after a short period during which we
> > have only had a little light rain.!
>
> > I thought IP44 provides protection against water spray from any
> > direction, whereas IP45 provides protection against low pressure water
> > jets from any direction.
>
> > Is rain to be considered a low-pressure water jet?
>
> IP44 is at the lower end of the range. Were you supposed to drill
> a drain hole in the lowest part as mounted? That's common with
> accessories rated around IP44 - they aren't sealed against water
> (or moisture condensation), but provide for it to drain away
> without building up to dangerous levels.
>
> --
> Andrew Gabriel
> [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

I suppose I was looking for guidance as to whether rain in a
relatively sheltered position (on an east-facing wall and not in a
coastal location or on the top of a hill) is 'water spray' or a 'low
pressure water jet'.

Most of this supplier's outside light fittings (bulkheads, etc) are
IP44 rated.  My previous use of IP44-rated fittings in similar
locations led be to assume that these particular floodlights would be
OK.

There was nothing in the instructions about drilling a drain hole.
Once I'd seen that they were letting water in, I did briefly consider
providing a means for it to drain away, but given the relatively low
rainfall over the period they were installed, and the amount of water
ingress, I thought it safer to send 'em back.

So, do you normally avoid using IP44 rated units outside unless
they're sheltered by a porch or something?

Given that IP43 protects against water falling as a spray at angles up
to 60 degrees to the vertical, I thought that IP44 should be adequate
for 'normal' outside use in all but the most exposed locations.  Is
that not the case?

Mike H wrote:
> On Sep 29, 5:42 pm, and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel)
> wrote:
>> In article
>> ,
>> Mike H  writes:
>>
>>
>>
>>> I installed a couple of IP44-rated low-energy floodlights recently.
>>> They were installed on the front and side walls of my house about 10
>>> feet off the ground.
>>
>>> Within three weeks one of them stopped working. On investigation I
>>> found both lights had about half a pint of water inside them!
>>
>>> The supplier is taking them back and providing a full refund, but
>>> they have said that "IP44-rated fittings are at the lower end of
>>> the IP rating system and are not suitable for heavy and extended
>>> exposure to rain".
>>
>>> Eh???
>>
>>> I thought IP44 was suitable for external use unless it was a very
>>> exposed position (which this is not). I have several IP44-rated
>>> bulkhead lights in similar positions that are still in use after
>>> many years exposure and show no signs of letting in any water at
>>> all, yet these units were a quarter full after a short period
>>> during which we have only had a little light rain.!
>>
>>> I thought IP44 provides protection against water spray from any
>>> direction, whereas IP45 provides protection against low pressure
>>> water jets from any direction.
>>
>>> Is rain to be considered a low-pressure water jet?
>>
>> IP44 is at the lower end of the range. Were you supposed to drill
>> a drain hole in the lowest part as mounted? That's common with
>> accessories rated around IP44 - they aren't sealed against water
>> (or moisture condensation), but provide for it to drain away
>> without building up to dangerous levels.
>>
>> --
>> Andrew Gabriel
>> [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
>
> I suppose I was looking for guidance as to whether rain in a
> relatively sheltered position (on an east-facing wall and not in a
> coastal location or on the top of a hill) is 'water spray' or a 'low
> pressure water jet'.
>
> Most of this supplier's outside light fittings (bulkheads, etc) are
> IP44 rated.  My previous use of IP44-rated fittings in similar
> locations led be to assume that these particular floodlights would be
> OK.
>
> There was nothing in the instructions about drilling a drain hole.
> Once I'd seen that they were letting water in, I did briefly consider
> providing a means for it to drain away, but given the relatively low
> rainfall over the period they were installed, and the amount of water
> ingress, I thought it safer to send 'em back.
>
> So, do you normally avoid using IP44 rated units outside unless
> they're sheltered by a porch or something?
>
> Given that IP43 protects against water falling as a spray at angles up
> to 60 degrees to the vertical, I thought that IP44 should be adequate
> for 'normal' outside use in all but the most exposed locations.  Is
> that not the case?

How is the unit cabled - is it possible water is (was) tracking down the 
cable directly into the unit?

Or is it fed from underneath?

Toby...

In article ,
	Mike H  writes:
> I suppose I was looking for guidance as to whether rain in a
> relatively sheltered position (on an east-facing wall and not in a
> coastal location or on the top of a hill) is 'water spray' or a 'low
> pressure water jet'.
> Most of this supplier's outside light fittings (bulkheads, etc) are
> IP44 rated.  My previous use of IP44-rated fittings in similar
> locations led be to assume that these particular floodlights would be
> OK.
> There was nothing in the instructions about drilling a drain hole.
> Once I'd seen that they were letting water in, I did briefly consider
> providing a means for it to drain away, but given the relatively low
> rainfall over the period they were installed, and the amount of water
> ingress, I thought it safer to send 'em back.
> So, do you normally avoid using IP44 rated units outside unless
> they're sheltered by a porch or something?
> Given that IP43 protects against water falling as a spray at angles up
> to 60 degrees to the vertical, I thought that IP44 should be adequate
> for 'normal' outside use in all but the most exposed locations.  Is
> that not the case?

I tend to make my own assessment of suitability, treating the
IP rating only as an initial guideline. Fittings generally aren't
sealed, and so always have to cope with condensation collection
and drainage. Even when I have a wiring accessory and cable system
which would on the face of it seal, unless we're talking submersion
levels of sealing, I still expect condensation and provide provision
for it to drain away, and keep the internal wiring away from where
it might run. Other things to make such wiring more reliable are to
use drip loops -- bending the cable so any water running down it
drips off before the cable enters the enclosure or a connector
(applies both externally and internally to the wiring accessory).

-- 
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Sep 29, 7:10 pm, and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel)
wrote:
> In article ,
>         Mike H  writes:
>
>
>
> > I suppose I was looking for guidance as to whether rain in a
> > relatively sheltered position (on an east-facing wall and not in a
> > coastal location or on the top of a hill) is 'water spray' or a 'low
> > pressure water jet'.
> > Most of this supplier's outside light fittings (bulkheads, etc) are
> > IP44 rated.  My previous use of IP44-rated fittings in similar
> > locations led be to assume that these particular floodlights would be
> > OK.
> > There was nothing in the instructions about drilling a drain hole.
> > Once I'd seen that they were letting water in, I did briefly consider
> > providing a means for it to drain away, but given the relatively low
> > rainfall over the period they were installed, and the amount of water
> > ingress, I thought it safer to send 'em back.
> > So, do you normally avoid using IP44 rated units outside unless
> > they're sheltered by a porch or something?
> > Given that IP43 protects against water falling as a spray at angles up
> > to 60 degrees to the vertical, I thought that IP44 should be adequate
> > for 'normal' outside use in all but the most exposed locations.  Is
> > that not the case?
>
> I tend to make my own assessment of suitability, treating the
> IP rating only as an initial guideline. Fittings generally aren't
> sealed, and so always have to cope with condensation collection
> and drainage. Even when I have a wiring accessory and cable system
> which would on the face of it seal, unless we're talking submersion
> levels of sealing, I still expect condensation and provide provision
> for it to drain away, and keep the internal wiring away from where
> it might run. Other things to make such wiring more reliable are to
> use drip loops -- bending the cable so any water running down it
> drips off before the cable enters the enclosure or a connector
> (applies both externally and internally to the wiring accessory).
>
> --
> Andrew Gabriel
> [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Thanks Toby and Andrew

> I tend to make my own assessment of suitability, treating the
> IP rating only as an initial guideline. Fittings generally aren't
> sealed, and so always have to cope with condensation collection
> and drainage.

Shouldn't we be able to rely on the manufacturers for this?  Aren't
the IP rating specs and the testing protocols sufficiently rigid to
ensure consistency of environmental performance, or do manufacturers
get to nominate their own product rating without having to show any
test results? I'd always assumed that the IP ratings system was a
guarantee as to the suitability of a product for a particular
environment.  From what you say, it appears that isn't the case.

Both units were fed from below through a gland and I included a drip
loop anyway to prevent water running back down the short length of the
cable into the wall.  There's no way any water got into the light via
that route.  If I didn't have to send them back, I'd dismantle them
further to identify where they leak - bit that's not an option.  It's
a shame they're so poor because in all other respects they were just
right for the job.

Oh well, note to self for the future:- IP ratings are apparently not
worth the paper they're written on.