I finally go around to arranging to change from Economy 7 to a
standard tariff prior to changing suppliers. Now I don't leave
computers on 24/7 nor run the dishwasher or washing machine at night
it wasn't economic.

I'm a bit surprised the electricity company are going to change the
meter instead of just read the sum, it looks like an unnecessary
expense.

AJH

On 17/09/2008 09:12, AJH wrote:

> I'm a bit surprised the electricity company are going to change the
> meter instead of just read the sum, it looks like an unnecessary
> expense.

They probably want to make it more difficult for you (or future 
owners/residents) to return to E7 in future.

On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 09:12:47 +0100, AJH wrote:

> I'm a bit surprised the electricity company are going to change the
> meter instead of just read the sum, it looks like an unnecessary
> expense.

Presumably they'll take away the times switch and disconnect the tails 
from the controlled CU at the same time.

-- 
Cheers
Dave.

On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 09:12:47 +0100, AJH 
wrote:

>I finally go around to arranging to change from Economy 7 to a
>standard tariff prior to changing suppliers. Now I don't leave
>computers on 24/7 nor run the dishwasher or washing machine at night
>it wasn't economic.
>

I don't quite follow this.  Are you on a tariff that is cheaper during
the day than Economy 7 or were you just not making enough use of
Economy 7 to cover presumably a higher fixed charge?


-- 
AnthonyL

On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 11:30:22 GMT, AnthonyL wrote:

> I don't quite follow this.  Are you on a tariff that is cheaper during
> the day than Economy 7 or were you just not making enough use of
> Economy 7 to cover presumably a higher fixed charge?

Day rate E7 is more than standard rate *and* you pay a higher standing 
charge. 

I built a spreadsheet to crunch the figures a while back it told me that I 
needed to use at least 1.46 units in the cheap rate period to offset the 
higher standing charge and 0.21 off-peak units for every peak unit used. 

10 units total would require  7 @ day rate and 3 at night rate.
20 units total would require 15 @ day rate and 5 at night rate.

5 at night rate requires and average load of over 700W.

-- 
Cheers
Dave.

On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 11:30:22 GMT, nospam@please.invalid (AnthonyL)
wrote:

>Are you on a tariff that is cheaper during
>the day than Economy 7 or were you just not making enough use of
>Economy 7 to cover presumably a higher fixed charge?

From what I can see I'm paying a premium on my day units in order to
have the cheaper night units. As the proportion of night units has
dropped to well under 25% of the day units there is no longer any
benefit in the economy 7 tariff, given the lead time on building
carbon dioxide emission free generation capacity I've decided to
economise.


AJH

On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 16:26:15 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
 wrote:

>I built a spreadsheet to crunch the figures a while back it told me that I 
>needed to use at least 1.46 units in the cheap rate period to offset the 
>higher standing charge and 0.21 off-peak units for every peak unit used. 
>
>10 units total would require  7 @ day rate and 3 at night rate.
>20 units total would require 15 @ day rate and 5 at night rate.

Thanks for that, I just did a mental sum and concluded similarly but
with none of your accuracy.

AJH

On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 20:28:16 +0100, AJH wrote:

> Thanks for that, I just did a mental sum and concluded similarly but
> with none of your accuracy.

It's using very old figures, Nov '04 is the spreadsheet file date, but I 
doubt that the balance points have change significantly.

-- 
Cheers
Dave.

On 17 Sep,  
     "Dave Liquorice"  wrote:

> It's using very old figures, Nov '04 is the spreadsheet file date, but I 
> doubt that the balance points have change significantly.
> 
Do the values still vary considerably with suppliers/location. At one time
East midlands EB (IIRC) charged the same for day units as on its 24 hour
tarrif, so the balance point was more favourable to E7 with just the
additional standing charge to assimilate. I haven't seen similar of late but
ICBW.
  

-- 
  B Thumbs
  Change lycos to yahoo to reply

On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 23:16:29 +0100, me9@privacy.net wrote:

> Do the values still vary considerably with suppliers/location. 

Yes, it's even more complicated now as the same supplier with the same 
tarrif will charge different amounts depending on where you are.

I've not noticed any E7 tarrifs were the E7 Peak is the same as that 
companies normal rate, but I haven't really looked either.

-- 
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice wrote:

>On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 23:16:29 +0100, me9@privacy.net wrote:

>Yes, it's even more complicated now as the same supplier with the same 
>tarrif will charge different amounts depending on where you are.
>
>I've not noticed any E7 tarrifs were the E7 Peak is the same as that 
>companies normal rate, but I haven't really looked either.

I had an exchange of emails with Scottish Power about the
misleading way they present their bills.

Their bill explanation leaflet states "If you are a Direct Debit
customer, this will show your total charges for energy use."
However, this is incorrect, as it adjusts "Total Charges" for the
previous account balance, and is therefore misleading.  What it
shows is the account balance, a different matter entirely.

Furthermore, nowhere on the bill is there a figure for the total
cost of energy used, including VAT and discounts.  This figure
can be arrived at, but why is it not printed?  Similarly, it is
not at all straightforward to separate out the final cost of gas
and electricity consumed.

After an initial response which was simply a knee jerk
explanation of how to get a bill, they simply responded

>Your total charges are shown as a total balance of your payments received and all charges applied so you can see the current balance of your account in full.

I have a spreadsheet tracking my usage, and also showing if E7 is
saving me money.  At present, for my load pattern, it is becoming
marginal.

Chris
-- 
Chris J Dixon  Nottingham UK
chris@cdixon.me.uk

Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

On 18/09/2008 00:33, Dave Liquorice wrote:

> I've not noticed any E7 tarrifs were the E7 Peak is the same as that 
> companies normal rate, but I haven't really looked either.

Are the energy companies obliged to publish a definitive price list?

The few I've looked at all seem to want to produce an individual quote, 
based on full address, existing supplier, existing usage, etc. Fair 
enough they'll argue this steers the customer through the complication 
of discount schemes, but seems it provides them with the scope to 
provide a quote which is "only just" cheaper that their competitors.

Ibico, which was mentioned here were recently, were the only ones whose 
price structure appeared un-complicated, a single price per unit varying 
by region for electricity, without primary and secondary units, standing 
charges etc, this rate was (marginally) cheaper than my existing 
supplier's "best rate", and there would be another small saving by not 
paying a higher "standing charge cover-up" rate for the first few units.

On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 07:57:11 퍝, Andy Burns wrote:

> Are the energy companies obliged to publish a definitive price list?

You can normally find proper tariff/price lists if you dig about on their 
websites. Troubles is with the 16 regions and a similar number of tarrifs 
even if you have the raw data it's still not simple. IMHO a decent web 
site would allow you select your region by town/postcode/REC and then 
present only the tariffs/rates available to you, it's not rocket scienceto do that FFS.

> Ibico, which was mentioned here were recently, were the only ones whose 
> price structure appeared un-complicated,

They do have the simplest structure and the only one without a standing charge hidden or otherwise AFAIK. However you ought to be able to beat 
Ibico's rate, I pay 10.67p/unit on Ibico on a low use meter but 
8.415p/unit (9.281p/unit since 1st Sept if I've read Scottish Power's 18page price list .pdf correctly) but with a standing charge of 12.39p/dayhowever we use >20units day so still save about 15p/day (~£50/year) on SP 
compared to Ibico.

-- 
Cheers
Dave.

On 18/09/2008 10:01, Dave Liquorice wrote:

> However you ought to be able to beat 
> Ibico's rate, I pay 10.67p/unit on Ibico on a low use meter but 
> 8.415p/unit (9.281p/unit since 1st Sept if I've read Scottish Power's 18 
> page price list .pdf correctly) but with a standing charge of 12.39p/day 
> however we use >20units day so still save about 15p/day (~£50/year) on SP 
> compared to Ibico.

Well, scotpower seem to have eight separate PDFs for their different 
schemes, but at least you *can* pick your way through them, I was unable to find a similar document on eon's website.

On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 06:43:40 GMT, Chris J Dixon wrote:

> Furthermore, nowhere on the bill is there a figure for the total
> cost of energy used, 

Odd on my bill from SP the front has a summary of rather irrelevant 
account balances etc but the back has a detailed break down giving all the 
relevant information. Starts with previous statement ballnce then adds any 
payments in the period and gives a total. After that there is a detailedsection with meter no, readings, periods, cost/unit, standing charge/dayand no of days with a total. Below that is a discounts section with a 
total, then total charges section with the VAT calculation, finally the account balance to be carried forward. 

> Similarly, it is not at all straightforward to separate out the final > cost of gas and electricity consumed.

Can't comment on that as there is no gas here but I can clearly see how much power I have used and when the rate changes how they have apportioned 
the two rates.

I have recently had a run in with Southern Electricity and Scottish & 
Southern who do the billing for Ibico. The billing system can't cope with 
a DD discount of £0.00 (Ibico don't do DD discount) so they hoik the unit 
rates up by a bit then apply the standard SE DD discount to get the bottom 
line right.

-- 
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice wrote:

>On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 06:43:40 GMT, Chris J Dixon wrote:
>
>> Furthermore, nowhere on the bill is there a figure for the total
>> cost of energy used, 
>
>Odd on my bill from SP the front has a summary of rather irrelevant 
>account balances etc but the back has a detailed break down giving all the 
>relevant information. Starts with previous statement ballnce then adds any 
>payments in the period and gives a total. After that there is a detailed 
>section with meter no, readings, periods, cost/unit, standing charge/day 
>and no of days with a total. Below that is a discounts section with a 
>total, then total charges section with the VAT calculation, finally the 
>account balance to be carried forward. 

So, as I said, the total charge, including VAT, is not printed.
>
>> Similarly, it is not at all straightforward to separate out the final 
>> cost of gas and electricity consumed.
>
>Can't comment on that as there is no gas here but I can clearly see how 
>much power I have used and when the rate changes how they have apportioned 
>the two rates.
>
I am not suggesting that there is anything amiss with the
calculations.  However, it doesn't seem unreasonable that I
should expect to be able to read straight off the bill, without
having to work it out, allowing all discounts and including VAT: 

Cost to me of gas used
Cost to me of electricity used
Total amount charged against my account.

Chris
-- 
Chris J Dixon  Nottingham UK
chris@cdixon.me.uk

Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 16:26:15 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
 wrote:

>On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 11:30:22 GMT, AnthonyL wrote:
>
>> I don't quite follow this.  Are you on a tariff that is cheaper during
>> the day than Economy 7 or were you just not making enough use of
>> Economy 7 to cover presumably a higher fixed charge?
>
>Day rate E7 is more than standard rate *and* you pay a higher standing 
>charge. 
>
>I built a spreadsheet to crunch the figures a while back it told me that I 
>needed to use at least 1.46 units in the cheap rate period to offset the 
>higher standing charge and 0.21 off-peak units for every peak unit used. 
>
>10 units total would require  7 @ day rate and 3 at night rate.
>20 units total would require 15 @ day rate and 5 at night rate.
>
>5 at night rate requires and average load of over 700W.
>

Many thanks.  It had never occurred to me.  I'll start going through
the bills.


-- 
AnthonyL

On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 07:57:11 +0100, Andy Burns
 wrote:

>On 18/09/2008 00:33, Dave Liquorice wrote:
>
>> I've not noticed any E7 tarrifs were the E7 Peak is the same as that 
>> companies normal rate, but I haven't really looked either.
>
>Are the energy companies obliged to publish a definitive price list?
>
>The few I've looked at all seem to want to produce an individual quote, 
>based on full address, existing supplier, existing usage, etc. Fair 
>enough they'll argue this steers the customer through the complication 
>of discount schemes, but seems it provides them with the scope to 
>provide a quote which is "only just" cheaper that their competitors.
>

I read somewhere yesterday that the price can depend on whether you
have switched and whether the switch is a first switch (big discount)
or frequent switcher (small discount).


-- 
AnthonyL

On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 11:56:54 GMT, Chris J Dixon wrote:

> However, it doesn't seem unreasonable that I should expect to be able to 
> read straight off the bill, without having to work it out, allowing all 
> discounts and including VAT: 

As I said VAT has to be the last thing calculated on the total amount of 
charges less any discounts or rebates. To have the cost of gas/electricity 
shown inclusive of VAT is not possible to do accurately. 

> Cost to me of gas used
> Cost to me of electricity used

I don't have gas but I do have a line saying "Total electricity" ex VAT, 
see above.

> Total amount charged against my account.

I also have that (exc VAT, see above). The amount of VAT is on the line 
below.

-- 
Cheers
Dave.

On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 10:33:52 퍝, Andy Burns wrote:

> Well, scotpower seem to have eight separate PDFs for their different 
> schemes, 

Several of the links actually point to the same "general.pdf" file.

> but at least you *can* pick your way through them, 

Pick being the operative word, there is no mention of the "online" tarrifs 
in the file you get if you follow the links so you sort of have to guesswhat applies to you from the payment method and frequency.

Scottish Power are offering "Discounted Energy Oct 2009" which guarantees 
to be 3% below their standard rates until Oct 2009. Could save us £30/year 
over their Online Monthly DD tarrif. If you have gas it might be worth 
looking at the Online Energy Saver 4 that is better, at least for 
electricity, but is duel fuel only.  B-(

The fixed price to Dec '09 offerings come out just over a £10/year more 
expensive, you are gambling on the prices going up again. Personally I 
don't think they will, crude has dropped below $100/barrel in the last few 
days and Brent crude is just sub $90 today.

> I was unable to find a similar document on eon's website.

E.on don't offer competative rates on the switching sites so I haven't 
bothered looking...

-- 
Cheers
Dave.

On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 12:52:22 GMT, AnthonyL wrote:

> I read somewhere yesterday that the price can depend on whether you
> have switched and whether the switch is a first switch (big discount)
> or frequent switcher (small discount).

I'd take a pinch of salt with that the tarrifs and DD/online discounts are 
fixed. What you might get is variations in size of any "cash back" or 
other incentive.

-- 
Cheers
Dave.