Hi, can anyone point me at info about repairing a leaded window?

Son managed to bend the pane outwards so much that two pieces of
glass have cracked badly. One of them has a huge hole in it.

I've found some links that suggest you could repair in-situ but they
don't offer much detail.

TIA
Cheers PJ

pjlusenet@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> Hi, can anyone point me at info about repairing a leaded window?
> 
> Son managed to bend the pane outwards so much that two pieces of
> glass have cracked badly. One of them has a huge hole in it.
> 
> I've found some links that suggest you could repair in-situ but they
> don't offer much detail.
> 
> TIA
> Cheers PJ
> 
Ok, Ive not done this but apparently it works.

You have to cut teh leading with a dremel or stanley knife in the corers 
enough to lever up a bit to get the old galss out: replacement glass can 
be obtained (typically 3mm horticultural) and inserted, and then you 
carefully bend the lead back: a blob of electrical solder (soldering 
iron or gun: not blowlamp, though if you are careful an oxy torch works 
I believe) on the cut parts restores all.

HI Folks

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> pjlusenet@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> Hi, can anyone point me at info about repairing a leaded window?
>>
>> Son managed to bend the pane outwards so much that two pieces of
>> glass have cracked badly. One of them has a huge hole in it.
>>
>> I've found some links that suggest you could repair in-situ but they
>> don't offer much detail.
>>
>> TIA
>> Cheers PJ
>>
> Ok, Ive not done this but apparently it works.
> 
> You have to cut teh leading with a dremel or stanley knife in the corers 
> enough to lever up a bit to get the old galss out: replacement glass can 
> be obtained (typically 3mm horticultural) and inserted, and then you 
> carefully bend the lead back: a blob of electrical solder (soldering 
> iron or gun: not blowlamp, though if you are careful an oxy torch works 
> I believe) on the cut parts restores all.
> 

Well - sort of right....

Certainly a stanley knife to cut through the lead (it's called 'came') 
in the corners - if it's an old window then you may find that the lead 
has become brittle, so be careful.
If you have a glass cutter (the sort with a carbide wheel) then make a 
series of radial scores across the broken pieces, and then tap gently on 
the other side of the glass with a pair of pliers, screwcdriver handle 
or similar. You can then (hopefully) break the broken piece still 
further, and wiggle the broken segments out one by one (use pliers or 
gloves!)

If the original glass was coloured then you can get replacements from 
your friendly local stained glass dealer - they might even cut it to 
size for you - or if you want to email me direct then I'm sure I could 
find a piece of the right size and colour for you.

The glass is held in the groove of the came, and secured with a putty 
mixture (you might get away with silicon sealant as a diy solution).

Electrical solder won't work - you'll need some sort of bar solder (the 
proper stuff is called blowpipe solder) and a large soldering iron. 
Ideally use a tallow candle rubbed on the joint as flux, failing that 
try some Bakers Fluid.

DON'T use a oxy-torch - if you don;t shatter the adjacent pieces of 
glass then you'll burn the lead away - remember that it has a melting 
point not much higher than the solder you'll be using. If it's possible 
to take the window out and work with it flat then you'll find it much 
easier...

Your local stained glass shop may well be able to fix it for you - to be 
honest it's not the easiest DIY task...

Hope this helps - email me (adrian at inspired-glass.com) if you want 
more info.

Adrian

On Sat, 13 Sep 2008 12:10:28 +0100, The Natural Philosopher <a@b.c>
wrote:

>pjlusenet@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> Hi, can anyone point me at info about repairing a leaded window?
>> 
>> Son managed to bend the pane outwards so much that two pieces of
>> glass have cracked badly. One of them has a huge hole in it.
>> 
>> I've found some links that suggest you could repair in-situ but they
>> don't offer much detail.
>> 
>> TIA
>> Cheers PJ
>> 
>Ok, Ive not done this but apparently it works.
>
>You have to cut teh leading with a dremel or stanley knife in the corers 
>enough to lever up a bit to get the old galss out: replacement glass can 
>be obtained (typically 3mm horticultural) and inserted, and then you 
>carefully bend the lead back: a blob of electrical solder (soldering 
>iron or gun: not blowlamp, though if you are careful an oxy torch works 
>I believe) on the cut parts restores all.

I used a soldering iron. Much safer. In my case it was an internal
leaded panel in a cabinet door so I could get it laid flat. External
ones need the lead sealing with putty or similar else you get water
penetrating.

On 13 Sep, 11:53, pjluse...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> Hi, can anyone point me at info about repairing a leaded window?

Tempsford

They sell everything, inc. books, videos and courses.  If you're near
Bristol, try Creative Glass Guild too (Bedminster)

Generally damage is repairable, but for age wear the whole lot tends
to start failing and it's often quicker to replace all the lead and
rebuild the whole pane. Leaded glass is very quick to work (far
quicker than copper foil or zinc came), but you do need the right
approach and some obscure tools. Fine stuff for DIY, but read up
beforehand.

Glass cutting is its own joy.

HI Andy

Andy Dingley wrote:
> On 13 Sep, 11:53, pjluse...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> Hi, can anyone point me at info about repairing a leaded window?
> 
> Tempsford
> 
> They sell everything, inc. books, videos and courses.  If you're near
> Bristol, try Creative Glass Guild too (Bedminster)

Or Bournemouth Stained Glass, or Trinity in Norwich
- or tell us where you are ...?

The offer of a couple of pieces of glass, cut to size, still stands...

> 
> Generally damage is repairable, but for age wear the whole lot tends
> to start failing and it's often quicker to replace all the lead and
> rebuild the whole pane. Leaded glass is very quick to work (far
> quicker than copper foil or zinc came), but you do need the right
> approach and some obscure tools. Fine stuff for DIY, but read up
> beforehand.

Must get round to doing some serious lead-work one of these days -
must be nice to have that much 'margin for error' in the glass-cutting...

> 
> Glass cutting is its own joy.

Ain't that the truth ! <g>

Adrian

On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 09:13:06 +0100, Adrian 
wrote:

>- or tell us where you are ...?

Sorry forgot to say - I'm in Stockport.
Thanks for the offer of the glass but the 
bits that are broken are clear and 'dimpled'. I reckon I can get a
piece from the local glass shop.

I'll have a go with a Dremel and see how I go. It's a 1930's house so
I imagine the lead may be tricky to bend.

Thanks for all the info. provided so far.
It looks like it might make an interesting hobby!

ALDI are about to do a soldering iron kit for £6 that includes an 80W
iron. I read somewhere that you need 120W so I guess 80W would be too
weak. Any thoughts?

wrote:

> ALDI are about to do a soldering iron kit for £6 that includes an 80W
> iron. I read somewhere that you need 120W so I guess 80W would be too
> weak. Any thoughts?

You need a really, really, big soldering iron. The local lead specialist
uses one that looks like a small copper axe with (I think) a 500W
element. I've seen suggestions that the smallest iron to consider for
lead canes is 300W.

<http://www.tracysworkshop.com/p-15712-hexacon-300w-straight-soldering-i
ron.aspx?currencysetting=gbp&affiliateid=10051>

http://tinyurl.com/6nlk3o

About £100 or so.

Oh, here you go, one of the right type at a sensible price (£25). I'd
get one quick before they go back up to £100.

<http://www1.westfalia.net/shops/tools/welding_and_soldering_equipment/s
oldering__hard_soldering/soldering_irons/239971-1_soldering_iron_300w.ht
m>

http://tinyurl.com/56nydh

"Andy Dingley"  wrote in message 
news:6d2448aa-202f-4e6f-88cc-18948d9ff988@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> On 13 Sep, 11:53, pjluse...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> Hi, can anyone point me at info about repairing a leaded window?
>
> Tempsford
>
> They sell everything, inc. books, videos and courses.  If you're near
> Bristol, try Creative Glass Guild too (Bedminster)

They also will give very good advice by e-mail. It's an excellent company.
>
> Generally damage is repairable, but for age wear the whole lot tends
> to start failing and it's often quicker to replace all the lead and
> rebuild the whole pane. Leaded glass is very quick to work (far
> quicker than copper foil or zinc came), but you do need the right
> approach and some obscure tools. Fine stuff for DIY, but read up
> beforehand.
>
> Glass cutting is its own joy.

I agree with all of that.

Mary

HI

pjlusenet@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 09:13:06 +0100, Adrian 
> wrote:
> 
>> - or tell us where you are ...?
> 
> Sorry forgot to say - I'm in Stockport.

A quick Google on

stained glass stockport

shows a variety of companies - who might either do the job for you 
(worth asking for a quote, maybe ?) - or poijnt you in the right 
direction for supplies

> Thanks for the offer of the glass but the 
> bits that are broken are clear and 'dimpled'. I reckon I can get a
> piece from the local glass shop.

They'll likely have something similar.
Watch out for the thickness of the original glass. We tend to use 3mm
for most stained-glass work nowadays - not sure what would have been 
used in your original door.

Lots of modern window glass seems to start at 4mm - and you'll find
the job challenging enough without trying to force some over-thickness 
glass into the came. Make sure to scrape out the old putty once you've 
got the glass out.

Maybe make up a paper template for the pieces that you need (thin paper 
placed over the broken glass in-site - mark around the edge of the lead 
and then add whatever you need for the bit that fits into the recess in 
the came. Make it looser rather than tighter... - sweet-talk your 
supplier into cutting it for you....

> 
> I'll have a go with a Dremel and see how I go. It's a 1930's house so
> I imagine the lead may be tricky to bend.

You may find that it's too easy to bend ! <g>
As somebody else said - lead eventually goes very soft (corrosion 
through acidic stuff in the rain, maybe?) and you may find that it'll 
'tear' rather than bending...

> 
> Thanks for all the info. provided so far.
> It looks like it might make an interesting hobby!
> 
> ALDI are about to do a soldering iron kit for £6 that includes an 80W
> iron. I read somewhere that you need 120W so I guess 80W would be too
> weak. Any thoughts?

Well - you don't want _too much_ heat - generally folks use a 100w-or-so 
temperature controlled iron (Weller's my favourite) - but they're not 
cheap.

You're not trying to melt the whole came - just enough to make it strong 
again - too much heat and you'll lose the whole corner as one soggy blob 
of lead....

Flux the joint, little bit of solder on the iron, melt until you see 
that there's a bond formed.... then STOP! <g>

If you can get the window out & work horizontally then it'll be easier.

Lots of resources out there on the web... let us know if you get stuck

Good luck
Adrian

Andy Dingley wrote:

>
> Glass cutting is its own joy.

Glaziers are in league with the Devil IMO.  They have powers beyond our 
understanding...


-- 
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

HI Steve

Steve Firth wrote:
>  wrote:
> 
>> ALDI are about to do a soldering iron kit for £6 that includes an 80W
>> iron. I read somewhere that you need 120W so I guess 80W would be too
>> weak. Any thoughts?
> 
> You need a really, really, big soldering iron. The local lead specialist
> uses one that looks like a small copper axe with (I think) a 500W
> element. I've seen suggestions that the smallest iron to consider for
> lead canes is 300W.
> 
> <http://www.tracysworkshop.com/p-15712-hexacon-300w-straight-soldering-i
> ron.aspx?currencysetting=gbp&affiliateid=10051>
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/6nlk3o
> 
> About £100 or so.
> 
> Oh, here you go, one of the right type at a sensible price (£25). I'd
> get one quick before they go back up to £100.
> 
> <http://www1.westfalia.net/shops/tools/welding_and_soldering_equipment/s
> oldering__hard_soldering/soldering_irons/239971-1_soldering_iron_300w.ht
> m>
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/56nydh

I'd say that the OP doesn;t need anything like that amount of power -
and is likely to do more harm than good with an over-powerful iron.

Some folks use a 200W iron with a 'dimmer'-type controller - but you 
really should be able to manage with a 100W iron.

With a non-temp-controlled one you'll have to wait for it to heat up 
in-between joints - but that's no big deal.

Apparently solder 'guns' won;t do the job because thay can't be operated 
for long enough to get the heat into the work.

There's a fair chance that the lead is perished anyway - in which case a 
simple job becomes a complicated one fairly quickly.

If he were to get a local expert round to give an estimate then he might 
find that a re-build of the window was recommended. If the OP still 
wants to go ahead with this then there's a fair investment in tools & 
materials - and it'd be worth buying a piece of plain glass to fill the 
'hole' while he dismantles / rebiulds the window at his leisure.

A photo of the window & the damage would be interesting...

Adrian

In article ,
   Adrian  wrote:
> Electrical solder won't work - you'll need some sort of bar solder (the 
> proper stuff is called blowpipe solder) and a large soldering iron. 
> Ideally use a tallow candle rubbed on the joint as flux, failing that 
> try some Bakers Fluid.

I've just used some ordinary lead electronic multicore (60/40) to repair a
split in lead sheet. Worked just fine using a small blowlamp and some
care. Experimented with lead free too - doesn't work, and neither did
plumbing solder as the lead melted first. I practised on some scraps
first. 
 Not the purist's way I'm sure but I wasn't going to buy a soldering iron
for just this task.

-- 
*Be more or less specific *

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 13 Sep, 13:10, The Natural Philosopher <a...@b.c> wrote:
> pjluse...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > Hi, can anyone point me at info about repairing a leaded window?
>
> > Son managed to bend the pane outwards so much that two pieces of
> > glass have cracked badly. One of them has a huge hole in it.
>
> > I've found some links that suggest you could repair in-situ but they
> > don't offer much detail.
>
> > TIA
> > Cheers PJ
>
> Ok, Ive not done this but apparently it works.
>
> You have to cut teh leading with a dremel or stanley knife in the corers
> enough to lever up a bit to get the old galss out: replacement glass can
> be obtained (typically 3mm horticultural) and inserted, and then you
> carefully bend the lead back: a blob of electrical solder (soldering
> iron or gun: not blowlamp, though if you are careful an oxy torch works
> I believe) on the cut parts restores all.

Having done many of these (one of many perils of being the church
handyman), two warnings: (1) the lead doesn't bend out as far as the
depth of the channel, so don't measure for the glass until you've
opened it up, and (2) I've never been able to get it to bend back
neatly and always end up with a "pie-crust" effect, so open it on the
side you won't see too often. To get around (1), I now use perspex
instead of glass and file it to fit, but I hesitate to think how many
regs this breaks! I've never bothered to resolder the corner cuts.
Silicone is easier to work with than putty.

Chris

HI Dave

The Medway Handyman wrote:
> Andy Dingley wrote:
> 
>> Glass cutting is its own joy.
> 
> Glaziers are in league with the Devil IMO.  They have powers beyond our 
> understanding...
> 
> 
I could explain how it works - but then, according to the Guild rules, 
I'd have to make sure you didn't reveal the secrets to anybody else ! <g>

Must be coming up the Christmas time - he said - having nearly finished
another 'batch' of 24 little stained-glass angels!

What fun !

Adrian

On 14 Sep, 16:39, %ste...@malloc.co.uk (Steve Firth) wrote:
> Adrian  wrote:
> > I'd say that the OP doesn;t need anything like that amount of power -
> > and is likely to do more harm than good with an over-powerful iron.
>
> My experience is the other way around.

I would suggest Steve, that you have sod-all experience of soldering
lead and lots of experience of soldering lead-tin eutectic alloys.
It's a whole different ballgame.

You need an iron of about 75-80W, which are just about affordable. For
commercial use you would like something of 150W or so. Any bigger is
great, but you'll want a power controller and probably a second
(lighter) iron for smaller work. I don't know of any adequately
reliable temperature controlled irons at over 150W (where "reliable"
factors in the vast and unwarranted cost of the damned things).

Lead work can use a _lower_ powered iron than copper foil on windw-
sized panels, because you're only soldering joins, not reflowing
solder along a whole edge. If you're not working against the clock
(i.e. most hobby stuff) then you can allow a lower powered iron to
recover temperature between lead joints. If you're trying to reflow a
smooth bead along 3' of foil, there's no substitute for watts.

Andy Dingley  wrote:

> I would suggest Steve, that you have sod-all experience of soldering
> lead 

Well you're free to suggest whatever you like, if you try hard some of
them might even be correct.