hi,
I have a problem with the wiring in my kitchen. This weekend I
attempted to wire up a new light fitting which I bought from Ikea, I
think that might be the problem!
I took down an old flourescent tube, and didn't pay attention to the
wiring configuration and that's where the problems begin.
I have 3 cables running to the light fitting in the ceiling. I wired
it up all the lives to the live and all the neutrals to the neutral
turned on the power at the fuesbox and the light came on, result! When
I came to turn it off the circuit breaker went pop.
So I played around and it kept going pop.
I numbered the three cables,
1+2 light goes on and stays on, doesn't matter what I do with the
switch it stays on.
2+3 Light stays off
1+3 circuit board goes pop.
following constant frustration I now find that my bathroom light
doesn't come on, it must be a spur off the kitchen light
Can anyone give me an insight into why I can't turn my light off, and
why the system keeps tripping.
Cheers
Nick

"B3any"  wrote in message 
news:94ee117d-430e-4407-a7f5-2d72729e82e6@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> hi,
> I have a problem with the wiring in my kitchen. This weekend I
> attempted to wire up a new light fitting which I bought from Ikea, I
> think that might be the problem!
> I took down an old flourescent tube, and didn't pay attention to the
> wiring configuration and that's where the problems begin.
> I have 3 cables running to the light fitting in the ceiling. I wired
> it up all the lives to the live and all the neutrals to the neutral
> turned on the power at the fuesbox and the light came on, result! When
> I came to turn it off the circuit breaker went pop.
> So I played around and it kept going pop.
> I numbered the three cables,
> 1+2 light goes on and stays on, doesn't matter what I do with the
> switch it stays on.
> 2+3 Light stays off
> 1+3 circuit board goes pop.
> following constant frustration I now find that my bathroom light
> doesn't come on, it must be a spur off the kitchen light
> Can anyone give me an insight into why I can't turn my light off, and
> why the system keeps tripping.
> Cheers

Yes, you wried all the reds together and all the blacks together.

This mean the light switch, when off, does nothing. When on it sorts live to 
neutral. You are lucky that the switch contacts haven't fused together 
(lucky in the sense you don't have to buy a new switch).

One of the cables goes to the switch. All the reds (including the switch 
one) are connected together. All the blacks, *apart from the one from the 
switch*, are connected together. The blue from the light connects to the 
common blacks. The brown from the light connects to the black from the 
switch. The black from the switch should have a red sleeve on it but 
probably doesn't.


-- 
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not) together

"Bob Mannix"  wrote in message 
news:g4aa4m$ose$1@south.jnrs.ja.net...
>
> "B3any"  wrote in message 
> news:94ee117d-430e-4407-a7f5-2d72729e82e6@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>> hi,
>> I have a problem with the wiring in my kitchen. This weekend I
>> attempted to wire up a new light fitting which I bought from Ikea, I
>> think that might be the problem!
>> I took down an old flourescent tube, and didn't pay attention to the
>> wiring configuration and that's where the problems begin.
>> I have 3 cables running to the light fitting in the ceiling. I wired
>> it up all the lives to the live and all the neutrals to the neutral
>> turned on the power at the fuesbox and the light came on, result! When
>> I came to turn it off the circuit breaker went pop.
>> So I played around and it kept going pop.
>> I numbered the three cables,
>> 1+2 light goes on and stays on, doesn't matter what I do with the
>> switch it stays on.
>> 2+3 Light stays off
>> 1+3 circuit board goes pop.
>> following constant frustration I now find that my bathroom light
>> doesn't come on, it must be a spur off the kitchen light
>> Can anyone give me an insight into why I can't turn my light off, and
>> why the system keeps tripping.
>> Cheers
>
> Yes, you wried all the reds together and all the blacks together.
>
> This mean the light switch, when off, does nothing. When on it sorts live 
> to neutral. You are lucky that the switch contacts haven't fused together 
> (lucky in the sense you don't have to buy a new switch).
>
> One of the cables goes to the switch. All the reds (including the switch 
> one) are connected together. All the blacks, *apart from the one from the 
> switch*, are connected together. The blue from the light connects to the 
> common blacks. The brown from the light connects to the black from the 
> switch. The black from the switch should have a red sleeve on it but 
> probably doesn't.
>
>
> -- 
> Bob Mannix
> (anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not) together
>
Try this:
http://www.ultimatehandyman.co.uk/diy/electrics/light_fitting/ceiling_rose_wiring.htm

You need to identify which wire should have a red sleeve on it. (often 
missed)

On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 02:36:00 -0700 (PDT) someone who may be B3any
 wrote this:-

>I took down an old flourescent tube, and didn't pay attention to the
>wiring configuration and that's where the problems begin.

A fairly common mistake, which it is best to learn from.

>I have 3 cables running to the light fitting in the ceiling. I wired
>it up all the lives to the live and all the neutrals to the neutral
>turned on the power at the fuesbox and the light came on, result! When
>I came to turn it off the circuit breaker went pop.
>So I played around and it kept going pop.

Playing around is not a good way to work out what is happening. Far
better to test it properly and work out which wire is which.

>I numbered the three cables,
>1+2 light goes on and stays on, doesn't matter what I do with the
>switch it stays on.
>2+3 Light stays off
>1+3 circuit board goes pop.
>following constant frustration I now find that my bathroom light
>doesn't come on, it must be a spur off the kitchen light
>Can anyone give me an insight into why I can't turn my light off, 

Others have answered this. Hopefully you have now been able to sort
out the problem.

>and why the system keeps tripping.

It keeps tripping because the protective device is doing what it is
supposed to do. Cure the fault which you have introduced into the
wiring and I imagine it will stop tripping.


-- 
  David Hansen, Edinburgh 
 I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
 http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

In article
,
   B3any  wrote:
> hi,
> I have a problem with the wiring in my kitchen. This weekend I
> attempted to wire up a new light fitting which I bought from Ikea, I
> think that might be the problem!
> I took down an old flourescent tube, and didn't pay attention to the
> wiring configuration and that's where the problems begin.

This is probably the most common thing idiots do. ;-) Those with knowledge
and respect for wiring note where things went. And if you had, you'd not
be asking this question. ;-)

> I have 3 cables running to the light fitting in the ceiling. I wired it
> up all the lives to the live and all the neutrals to the neutral turned
> on the power at the fuesbox and the light came on, result! When I came
> to turn it off the circuit breaker went pop. So I played around and it
> kept going pop. I numbered the three cables, 1+2 light goes on and stays
> on, doesn't matter what I do with the switch it stays on. 2+3 Light
> stays off 1+3 circuit board goes pop. following constant frustration I
> now find that my bathroom light doesn't come on, it must be a spur off
> the kitchen light Can anyone give me an insight into why I can't turn my
> light off, and why the system keeps tripping. Cheers Nick

 Basically, think it through. What do the three of cables do?

 The common answer is one is power in, one is power out to the next
fitting, and one goes to the switch. And the switch shorts across that
cable when on. Thus tripping the circuit if wired incorrectly.

So the first thing you need to do is identify which one is the switch
cable. Easiest way is with a DVM using the continuity or resistance
measurement. With the power off, connecting the meter between the correct
line and neutral of the switch pair will show a short with the switch on,
none with it off. Mark the neutral of this pair preferably with a red
sleeve if the colours are red and black, or brown if they're brown and
blue. Connect this cable to the *line* of the fitting. Both the other
neutrals are connected together and to the neutral of the fitting. All
three lines are connected to each other but not to the fitting. All the
earths should be connected together and to the fitting if needed.

-- 
*Someday, we'll look back on this, laugh nervously and change the subject 

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 30 Jun, 10:36, B3any  wrote:
> hi,
> I have a problem with the wiring in my kitchen. This weekend I
> attempted to wire up a new light fitting which I bought from Ikea, I
> think that might be the problem!
> I took down an old flourescent tube, and didn't pay attention to the
> wiring configuration and that's where the problems begin.
> I have 3 cables running to the light fitting in the ceiling. I wired
> it up all the lives to the live and all the neutrals to the neutral
> turned on the power at the fuesbox and the light came on, result! When
> I came to turn it off the circuit breaker went pop.
> So I played around and it kept going pop.
> I numbered the three cables,
> 1+2 light goes on and stays on, doesn't matter what I do with the
> switch it stays on.
> 2+3 Light stays off
> 1+3 circuit board goes pop.
> following constant frustration I now find that my bathroom light
> doesn't come on, it must be a spur off the kitchen light
> Can anyone give me an insight into why I can't turn my light off, and
> why the system keeps tripping.
> Cheers
> Nick

Hi Nick,

Many of us (certainly me) started our understanding of domestic wiring
by getting equally confused about the wiring of ceiling lights, and
then having it explained to us by some helpful person/website. One of
my many mistakes was to take off all the three-way switches on my
staircase, smugly write down the connections on a bit of old paper
(there's one extra colour to add to the possible permutations), and
then lose it. Even after I worked it out again I still can't say that
I understand three-way switching.

Cheers!

Martin

draw a wiring diagram
using lots of colours
not black and white...

and get a book out of the library

[g]

On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 16:45:56 +0100, "George \(dicegeorge\)"
 wrote:

>draw a wiring diagram
>using lots of colours
>not black and white...
>
>and get a book out of the library
>
>[g] 

And don't lose the bit of paper, because...............that can be
very embarrassing!

Not that I have ever done that of course!

B3any wrote:

> I have a problem with the wiring in my kitchen. This weekend I
> attempted to wire up a new light fitting which I bought from Ikea, I
> think that might be the problem!

Oddly - it won't help. Chances are it has three connections - one live, 
one neutral, and one earth. You need 4!

1) A permanent live this connects the live in (from previous light), 
live out (to next light) and switch feed together.

*Note that it does not get directly connected to the live on the lamp - 
or you won't be able to turn it off*

2) You also need a neutral connection for neutral in and out (you can 
use the one on the lamp for this)

3) you need and earth connection (ditto - join all earths together using 
the supplied terminal)

4) and you need switched live. This is the (probably black) wire that 
comes back from the switch - connect this to the live terminal on the lamp.



-- 
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
|          Internode Ltd -  http://www.internode.co.uk            |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
|        John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk              |
\=================================================================/

In article
,
   Martin Pentreath  wrote:
>  Even after I worked it out again I still can't say that
> I understand three-way switching.




          L1                           L1
          0===========0    0===========0============= Line
          |            \  /            |
      C 0================================O C
         \             /  \             /
          0===========0    0===========0============= Switch return
          L2         Optional          L2
                   Intermediate

-- 
*Okay, who stopped the payment on my reality check? *

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)"  wrote in message 
news:4fb7bea988dave@davenoise.co.uk...
> In article
> ,
>   Martin Pentreath  wrote:
>>  Even after I worked it out again I still can't say that
>> I understand three-way switching.
>
>
>
>
>          L1                           L1
>          0===========0    0===========0============= Line
>          |            \  /            |
>      C 0================================O C
>         \             /  \             /
>          0===========0    0===========0============= Switch return
>          L2         Optional          L2
>                   Intermediate
>
> -- 
> *Okay, who stopped the payment on my reality check? *
>
>    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
>                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Is "3 way" correct terminology? Isn't it still 2 way - with an intermediate 
switch? If you added 3 intermediate switches - would you call it 5 way?

On 30 Jun, 23:26, "John"  wrote:

> Is "3 way" correct terminology? Isn't it still 2 way - with an intermediate
> switch? If you added 3 intermediate switches - would you call it 5 way?

Don't know what the official answer is, but what's the "two" in two-
way referring to if it's not the number of switches involved??

Thanks Dave for the diagram, I remember studying something like it at
the time, and still not feeling much wiser, although it helped to get
it working. I don't think I was cut out to be an electrician.

"Martin Pentreath"  wrote in message 
news:7ee599c8-f5ad-4b58-8d80-bf43bfec7d81@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> On 30 Jun, 23:26, "John"  wrote:
>
>> Is "3 way" correct terminology? Isn't it still 2 way - with an 
>> intermediate
>> switch? If you added 3 intermediate switches - would you call it 5 way?
>
> Don't know what the official answer is, but what's the "two" in two-
> way referring to if it's not the number of switches involved??
>
> Thanks Dave for the diagram, I remember studying something like it at
> the time, and still not feeling much wiser, although it helped to get
> it working. I don't think I was cut out to be an electrician.

The switch has 2 outputs from one common.

John wrote:
> >> I understand three-way switching.
> >          L1                           L1
> >          0===========0    0===========0============= Line
> >          |            \  /            |
> >      C 0================================O C
> >         \             /  \            > >          0===========0    0===========0============= Switch return
> >          L2         Optional          L2
> >                   Intermediate
>
> Is "3 way" correct terminology? Isn't it still 2 way - with an intermediate
> switch? If you added 3 intermediate switches - would you call it 5 way?

It's three *point* or *location* switching. A switch in three
different locations. Each switch still only switches to *two*
positions, or ways. The confusion arises because with a
two-point switching circuit you use two two-way switches,
and so everybody ends up calling it "two-way switching".

> I have 3 cables running to the light fitting in the ceiling.

This is why, whenever I have the opportunity, I replace any
combined outlet & junction wiring with a seperate junction
box with a single cable to the outlet.

--
JGH

"jgharston"  wrote in message 
news:4eb72427-de66-4fd0-a9b5-b113d4a91283@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
John wrote:
> >> I understand three-way switching.
> > L1 L1
> > 0===========0 0===========0============= Line
> > | \ / |
> > C 0================================O C
> > \ / \ /
> > 0===========0 0===========0============= Switch return
> > L2 Optional L2
> > Intermediate
>
> Is "3 way" correct terminology? Isn't it still 2 way - with an 
> intermediate
> switch? If you added 3 intermediate switches - would you call it 5 way?

It's three *point* or *location* switching. A switch in three
different locations. Each switch still only switches to *two*
positions, or ways. The confusion arises because with a
two-point switching circuit you use two two-way switches,
and so everybody ends up calling it "two-way switching".

> I have 3 cables running to the light fitting in the ceiling.

This is why, whenever I have the opportunity, I replace any
combined outlet & junction wiring with a seperate junction
box with a single cable to the outlet.

--
JGH

A good idea - but access is often a limitation - and you are also 
introducing additional connections (which could loosen). I don't like the 
design of junction boxes - they seem stuck in  a "design time warp"

In article
,
   Martin Pentreath  wrote:
> Thanks Dave for the diagram, I remember studying something like it at
> the time, and still not feeling much wiser, although it helped to get
> it working. I don't think I was cut out to be an electrician.

Basically, each terminal on the switch is labelled as I've shown and all
you have to do is connect those terminals as in the diagram. Same way as
you'd wire up a plug. Hopefully.

-- 
*All men are idiots, and I married their King.

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

We ancients were taught like this if it helps.
a switch interrupts a circuit and can be used to disconnect said circuit or 
change its path to a different location or WAY.
Switches can be grouped together to form GANGS.
So a 1 way switch can only stop or start flow in 1 WAY whist a 2 way switch 
can change flow to 2 different WAYS and a 3 way 4 way etc whilst 2 switches 
together in the same housing are a 2Gang switch and 3 a 3 Gang.

As for the lighting circuit as there is only 1 common source of output the 
circuit is 2 way with intermediate switching as the extra switches are 
intermediately placed in the circuit and can be numerous.

Memories of a question posed by my instructor years ago.Regarding a 
lighthouse.(but that's another thread)

Seems they may teach the theory differently these days but the outcome is 
the same .(you can switch the light on or off from various points.)

CJ

"cj"  wrote in message 
news:uIednWOP3ciBKvfVnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@bt.com...
> We ancients were taught like this if it helps.
> a switch interrupts a circuit and can be used to disconnect said circuit 
> or change its path to a different location or WAY.
> Switches can be grouped together to form GANGS.
> So a 1 way switch can only stop or start flow in 1 WAY whist a 2 way 
> switch can change flow to 2 different WAYS and a 3 way 4 way etc whilst 2 
> switches together in the same housing are a 2Gang switch and 3 a 3 Gang.
>
> As for the lighting circuit as there is only 1 common source of output the 
> circuit is 2 way with intermediate switching as the extra switches are 
> intermediately placed in the circuit and can be numerous.
>
> Memories of a question posed by my instructor years ago.Regarding a 
> lighthouse.(but that's another thread)
>
> Seems they may teach the theory differently these days but the outcome is 
> the same .(you can switch the light on or off from various points.)
>
> CJ
>
>
>
Excellent (although when two way switches are grouped on a plate as a 2 or 3 
gang - it is normally a manufacturing /inventory convenience - they are 
often used as one way)

John wrote:

>You need to identify which wire should have a red sleeve on it. (often 
>missed) 


Should be easy. Power off & disconnect all at the fitting. Light switch to on
poition and use a meter to check which pair are shorted. Confirm bt switchig
switch off and making sure no longer shorted.

P.
-- 
Paul Matthews                          
paul@cattytown.me.uk
http://www.hepcats.co.uk

Paul Matthews wrote:

> Should be easy. Power off & disconnect all at the fitting. Light switch to on
> poition and use a meter to check which pair are shorted. Confirm bt switchig
> switch off and making sure no longer shorted.

The switch is obviously the cable identified as no. 3 in the original 
post.  No. 1 is the incoming feed, no. 2 is a looped feed out.

-- 
Andy

On 2 Jul, 18:22, Andy Wade  wrote:
> Paul Matthews wrote:
> > Should be easy. Power off & disconnect all at the fitting.Lightswitch to on
> > poition and use a meter to check which pair are shorted. Confirm bt switchig
> > switch off and making sure no longer shorted.
>
> The switch is obviously the cable identified as no. 3 in the original
> post.  No. 1 is the incoming feed, no. 2 is a looped feed out.
>
> --
> Andy

Dear all
Thank you so much for all your help, being called an idiot certainly
helped alot, it meant I had to prove to myself that it could be done.
Wire 1 was the supply
Wire 2 was for the bathroom
Wire 3 was the switch

I could not figur out how to do it without a junction box, so I fitted
a junction box, and introduced a 4th wire which was a flex coming out
to join with the new light fitting.

Once I had got the junction box it all worked out rather well.

So thank you all again for your help.
Cheers
Nick

In article
,
   B3any  wrote:
> Thank you so much for all your help, being called an idiot certainly
> helped alot, it meant I had to prove to myself that it could be done.

Good. But you'll now know to make notes when wiring is involved. Saves a
lot of time. Unless you're certain what you're doing.

> Wire 1 was the supply
> Wire 2 was for the bathroom
> Wire 3 was the switch

Yup.

> I could not figur out how to do it without a junction box, so I fitted
> a junction box, and introduced a 4th wire which was a flex coming out
> to join with the new light fitting.

Presumably this was all inside the original ceiling rose? That could have
been re-used, concealed inside the ceiling void. 

> Once I had got the junction box it all worked out rather well.

> So thank you all again for your help.

We aim to help. And have a bit of fun along the way.

-- 
*I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder *

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 7 Jul 2008 02:59:56 -0700 (PDT) someone who may be B3any
 wrote this:-

>I could not figur out how to do it without a junction box, so I fitted
>a junction box, and introduced a 4th wire which was a flex coming out
>to join with the new light fitting.

If a suitable length of suitably sized terminal strip
<http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Cable_Accessories_Index/Connector_Strips/index.html>
cannot be placed inside the fitting then a junction box is the
correct solution.

Junction boxes should be fixed to the building, which can be
difficult when replacing fittings and this is often ignored.


-- 
  David Hansen, Edinburgh 
 I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
 http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

David Hansen wrote:

> If a suitable length of suitably sized terminal strip
> <http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Cable_Accessories_Index/Connector_Strips/index.html>
> cannot be placed inside the fitting then a junction box is the
> correct solution.

If a fitting doesn't have provision for loop-in through wiring then 
placing terminal strip inside isn't necessarily going to provide a 
satisfactory solution.  In any case the 17th edition regs now 
effectively ban the practice:

"559.6.2.1 The installation of through wiring in a luminaire is only 
permitted if the luminaire is designed for such wiring."

And 559.6.2 deals with cable types suitable for though wiring, which may 
need to have high temperature ratings.

> Junction boxes should be fixed to the building, which can be
> difficult when replacing fittings and this is often ignored.

The Chocbox can be very useful here since it has cable clamps.  You can 
also use it to house crimped connections where the junction is going to 
become inaccessible.

-- 
Andy