Hello,

I've looked at several posts on this but can't find any relevant
advice.

1. I'm going to lay laminate over a concrete floor in my kitchen
2. The floor is totally uneven, the highest point being the farthest
away from the entrance to the kitchen (which adjoins to my living
room)
3. I'm struggling to see how self-levelling compound would help me as
if I bring the level of the kitchen floor up to the highest point I
will have a step down to the lounge all be it only an inch or so.
4. This means I'll have to bring the level of both my lounge and my
living room up to match the highest point in the kitchen.

Am I going to have to break the floor up in the kitchen an re-lay it?
Can anyone advise me on the best solution please?

Thanks

tvmo wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> I've looked at several posts on this but can't find any relevant
> advice.
> 
> 1. I'm going to lay laminate over a concrete floor in my kitchen
> 2. The floor is totally uneven, the highest point being the farthest
> away from the entrance to the kitchen (which adjoins to my living
> room)
> 3. I'm struggling to see how self-levelling compound would help me as
> if I bring the level of the kitchen floor up to the highest point I
> will have a step down to the lounge all be it only an inch or so.
> 4. This means I'll have to bring the level of both my lounge and my
> living room up to match the highest point in the kitchen.
> 
> Am I going to have to break the floor up in the kitchen an re-lay it?
> Can anyone advise me on the best solution please?

I had a job as site supervisor at a school a couple of years ago and 
about 5 years ago, a new classroom was added. The concrete for the floor 
arrived late on Friday afternoon and didn't have enough water in it. The 
result was a very uneven floor.
To get round the unevenness, they hired what I can only call a concrete 
router. They used it to bring back some levelness to the floor. I have 
no idea what it cost to hire, but I hope some one else can come up with 
an answer for you.

Dave

On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 12:52:34 -0700 (PDT), tvmo 
wrote:

>Hello,
>
>I've looked at several posts on this but can't find any relevant
>advice.
>
>1. I'm going to lay laminate over a concrete floor in my kitchen
>2. The floor is totally uneven, the highest point being the farthest
>away from the entrance to the kitchen (which adjoins to my living
>room)
>3. I'm struggling to see how self-levelling compound would help me as
>if I bring the level of the kitchen floor up to the highest point I
>will have a step down to the lounge all be it only an inch or so.
>4. This means I'll have to bring the level of both my lounge and my
>living room up to match the highest point in the kitchen.
>
>Am I going to have to break the floor up in the kitchen an re-lay it?
>Can anyone advise me on the best solution please?
>
>Thanks

I have just seen a garage floor getting worked over by a gadget that
amazed me. It is like a traditional floor polisher used in offices but
had a large cutting disk instead of a brush under it. 

A few minutes use leveled a really bad garage floor. 

I was told you can hire them. The disks are very expensive but the
results are well worth it.

"tvmo"  wrote in message
news:abe30a0b-e6cc-4703-8119-81842dba54e3@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> Hello,
>
> I've looked at several posts on this but can't find any relevant
> advice.
>
> 1. I'm going to lay laminate over a concrete floor in my kitchen
> 2. The floor is totally uneven, the highest point being the farthest
> away from the entrance to the kitchen (which adjoins to my living
> room)
> 3. I'm struggling to see how self-levelling compound would help me as
> if I bring the level of the kitchen floor up to the highest point I
> will have a step down to the lounge all be it only an inch or so.
> 4. This means I'll have to bring the level of both my lounge and my
> living room up to match the highest point in the kitchen.
>
> Am I going to have to break the floor up in the kitchen an re-lay it?
> Can anyone advise me on the best solution please?
>
> Thanks
>

But there's no need to Level all the floor ie just to the point where it
needs leveling.
So long as it is alost level there is no need to worry about its finish as
you're laying laminate over the floor.

"EricP"  wrote in message
news:rm8d641qbhcccnom8phn5lmn0st5fq05ov@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 12:52:34 -0700 (PDT), tvmo 
> wrote:
>
> >Hello,
> >
> >I've looked at several posts on this but can't find any relevant
> >advice.
> >
> >1. I'm going to lay laminate over a concrete floor in my kitchen
> >2. The floor is totally uneven, the highest point being the farthest
> >away from the entrance to the kitchen (which adjoins to my living
> >room)
> >3. I'm struggling to see how self-levelling compound would help me as
> >if I bring the level of the kitchen floor up to the highest point I
> >will have a step down to the lounge all be it only an inch or so.
> >4. This means I'll have to bring the level of both my lounge and my
> >living room up to match the highest point in the kitchen.
> >
> >Am I going to have to break the floor up in the kitchen an re-lay it?
> >Can anyone advise me on the best solution please?
> >
> >Thanks
>
> I have just seen a garage floor getting worked over by a gadget that
> amazed me. It is like a traditional floor polisher used in offices but
> had a large cutting disk instead of a brush under it.
>
> A few minutes use leveled a really bad garage floor.
>
> I was told you can hire them. The disks are very expensive but the
> results are well worth it.

Would you use one in the kitchen though MrP? cough! cough! where's the
door..bump,ow!.

On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 12:52:34 -0700, tvmo wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> I've looked at several posts on this but can't find any relevant advice.
> 
> 1. I'm going to lay laminate over a concrete floor in my kitchen 2. The
> floor is totally uneven, the highest point being the farthest away from
> the entrance to the kitchen (which adjoins to my living room)
> 3. I'm struggling to see how self-levelling compound would help me as if
> I bring the level of the kitchen floor up to the highest point I will
> have a step down to the lounge all be it only an inch or so. 4. This
> means I'll have to bring the level of both my lounge and my living room
> up to match the highest point in the kitchen.
> 
> Am I going to have to break the floor up in the kitchen an re-lay it?
> Can anyone advise me on the best solution please?
> 
> Thanks

Having the concrete ground smooth would be one solution - you could even 
get the tools off Amazon if we were in the US.. <http://www.amazon.com/
Bosch-1773AK-Concrete-Surfacing-Grinder/dp/B0000719W8>

That would still leave you with a sloping (but smooth) floor though, if 
it's an even gradient. Is it an even gradient or all over the place? What 
about any existing cabinets, are they standing on the uneven floor, and 
hence higher at one end than the other? sloping??

Could you do something like lay a thin foam or hardboard underlay first 
to give you a good surface? You'd still have a slope and a step, but a 
smaller one. Get the threshold strip right and you probably wouldn't 
notice it. Having a nice wide strip tends to make people either step onto 
or over it, so there wouldn't (shouldn't?) be a trip hazard.

tvmo wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I've looked at several posts on this but can't find any relevant
> advice.
> 
> 1. I'm going to lay laminate over a concrete floor in my kitchen
> 2. The floor is totally uneven, the highest point being the farthest
> away from the entrance to the kitchen (which adjoins to my living
> room)
> 3. I'm struggling to see how self-levelling compound would help me as
> if I bring the level of the kitchen floor up to the highest point I
> will have a step down to the lounge all be it only an inch or so.
> 4. This means I'll have to bring the level of both my lounge and my
> living room up to match the highest point in the kitchen.
> 
> Am I going to have to break the floor up in the kitchen an re-lay it?
> Can anyone advise me on the best solution please?
> 
> Thanks
> 

Why is it so uneven? If it was that badly laid, then it could be argued 
that it would be sensible to rip it up. That would allow a) the floor to 
be laid properly; b) insulation to be incorporated.

There are so many questions before making a decision. Is it possible to 
lose some or all the height difference under units where it might not 
matter? Would it be difficult to re-lay the floor to line up to both the 
livng room and the back door?

Of course, anything will have costs - which will probably impact your 
decision.

While you are doing the work, you have the opportunity to reconsider use 
of laminate flooring and choose something nicer.

-- 
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious 
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
<www.thyromind.info> <www.thyroiduk.org> <www.altsupportthyroid.org>

tvmo  wrote:
>
>I've looked at several posts on this but can't find any relevant
>advice.
>
>1. I'm going to lay laminate over a concrete floor in my kitchen
>2. The floor is totally uneven, the highest point being the farthest
>away from the entrance to the kitchen (which adjoins to my living
>room)
>3. I'm struggling to see how self-levelling compound would help me as
>if I bring the level of the kitchen floor up to the highest point I
>will have a step down to the lounge all be it only an inch or so.
>4. This means I'll have to bring the level of both my lounge and my
>living room up to match the highest point in the kitchen.
>
>Am I going to have to break the floor up in the kitchen an re-lay it?
>Can anyone advise me on the best solution please?


Self-levelling compound doesn't actually make the floor "level".  It
makes it smoother and more even.  The problem is that imprecise
terminology is used, and people confuse the terms level, smooth and
even, which can all mean very different things.

The most sensible option is to use the poorly-named "self-levelling
compound" to make the floor "even" enough to take the laminated floor.
My own kitchen floor is not level.  It slopes evenly from one end to
the other, with about a 25mm fall, and this doesn't worry me.

However, if you are adamant that the floor needs to be exactly level
(all at the same elevation above Ordnance Datum) to achieve this, then
you could lay a sand/cement screed which varies from about 30mm to
5mm, adding 5mm to the highest part and 30mm to the lowest to give a
net overall levelling effect of 25mm.  

Alternatively, you could use self-levelling compound to provide a
screed of zero to 5mm thickness in the areas that need only that much
uplift, with a sand and cement screed in the areas needing an uplift
of 5mm to 25mm.  

I would try very hard to avoid doing either of those, simply because
of the 25mm or 35mm step you will end up with.

Others have suggested specialist tools to lower the floor.  I have no
experience of these so cannot comment.  But I have used a scabbling
tool, which is normally used to prepare a finished concrete pour to
accept more concrete on top, to lower a concrete slab that was poured
too high by 15-20mm at one end.  That could be used to lower high part
of your floor, but it would take some time and generate a lot of
noise.  The tool is either air driven (you would need to hire a
compressor), petrol driven or electric.

Here's a petrol driven scabbling tool available for hire:
http://tinyurl.com/5dw3y6

The type I have used is air powered, similar to that shown as "UV3R"
in the following catalogue:
http://www.macdonaldairtools.com/products/vr_scabblers_products.pdf

Bruce  wrote:
>
>I would try very hard to avoid doing either of those, simply because
>of the 25mm or 35mm step you will end up with.


Sorry, should have been 25mm or 30mm.

On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 20:57:41 GMT, "George" 
wrote:


>Would you use one in the kitchen though MrP? cough! cough! where's the
>door..bump,ow!.
>
You wet the floor George!

There's more dust brushing it up.

Thanks very much for the advice guys, much appreciated.

Should have explained, the kitchen is an empty shell at the moment as
I've ripped out the old kitchen with a view to replace it with new
units.

The problem with brining the floor level is going to be that the
kitchen floor will then be higher than the rest of the rooms in the
house, which means I'll either need a step or I'll have to raise the
other floors up.

I like the sound of the scabbing tool as opposed to digging the whole
floor up.

Cheers.

How big an area is too high?

It's hard work, but I've done it over a square meter by honeycombing
the surface to the correct depth with an SDS drill and a medium size
bit (say 20mm), then removing it down to drilled depth with a chisel
bit.

EricP wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 12:52:34 -0700 (PDT), tvmo 
> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I've looked at several posts on this but can't find any relevant
>> advice.
>>
>> 1. I'm going to lay laminate over a concrete floor in my kitchen
>> 2. The floor is totally uneven, the highest point being the farthest
>> away from the entrance to the kitchen (which adjoins to my living
>> room)
>> 3. I'm struggling to see how self-levelling compound would help me as
>> if I bring the level of the kitchen floor up to the highest point I
>> will have a step down to the lounge all be it only an inch or so.
>> 4. This means I'll have to bring the level of both my lounge and my
>> living room up to match the highest point in the kitchen.
>>
>> Am I going to have to break the floor up in the kitchen an re-lay it?
>> Can anyone advise me on the best solution please?
>>
>> Thanks
>
> I have just seen a garage floor getting worked over by a gadget that
> amazed me. It is like a traditional floor polisher used in offices but
> had a large cutting disk instead of a brush under it.
>
> A few minutes use leveled a really bad garage floor.
>
> I was told you can hire them. The disks are very expensive but the
> results are well worth it.

Was it one of these or similar? 
http://www.brandontoolhire.co.uk/directory/prodview.asp?idproduct=557


-- 
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On 2008-06-28 20:52:34 +0100, tvmo  said:

> Hello,
> 
> I've looked at several posts on this but can't find any relevant
> advice.
> 
> 1. I'm going to lay laminate over a concrete floor in my kitchen
> 2. The floor is totally uneven, the highest point being the farthest
> away from the entrance to the kitchen (which adjoins to my living
> room)
> 3. I'm struggling to see how self-levelling compound would help me as
> if I bring the level of the kitchen floor up to the highest point I
> will have a step down to the lounge all be it only an inch or so.
> 4. This means I'll have to bring the level of both my lounge and my
> living room up to match the highest point in the kitchen.
> 
> Am I going to have to break the floor up in the kitchen an re-lay it?
> Can anyone advise me on the best solution please?
> 
> Thanks

The best solution would be to rip up the existing floor and replace it 
with a new one including insulation and a damp proof membrane.

It can then be finished with a screed to the level of the floors in the 
surrounding rooms, leaving a flat surface onto which you could lay a 
much nicer tiled floor rather than ghastly laminate, which isn't really 
suitable for a kitchen anyway.


By the time you would otherwise tit around with the floor, then those 
of the other rooms you will have created a Ben Hur scale epic.      It 
really isn't worth it.

i would have thought a slight slope in kitchen floor is good,
if a pipe bursts at night the water will go out of the door!

[g]

> The best solution would be to rip up the existing floor and replace it 
> with a new one including insulation and a damp proof membrane.

Whatever for? There is no reason why a floor needs to be level as long 
as it's flat
> 
> It can then be finished with a screed to the level of the floors in the 
> surrounding rooms

Exactly and, by the sound of it, that won't be level either


, leaving a flat surface

  onto which you could lay a
> much nicer tiled floor

Why can't you allow people to make their own decisions?

  rather than ghastly laminate

I'm not a fan either but the OP's taste is nowt to do with me so I keep 
my trap shut, and I suggest you do the same. "Nice" and "ghastly". You 
sound like some silly old tart on a makeover show.

, which isn't really
> suitable for a kitchen anyway.

There are grades that are suitable but I guess you wouldn't want to know 
that.

On 2008-06-29 12:04:17 +0100, stuart noble  said:

> 
>> The best solution would be to rip up the existing floor and replace it 
>> with a new one including insulation and a damp proof membrane.
> 
> Whatever for? There is no reason why a floor needs to be level as long 
> as it's flat

That depends on how out of level it is.  You will also note that I 
didn't say that it did have to be level within itself, just that it 
could be level with the floors of the surrounding rooms at the points 
where it joins them.

However considering that a variation in level of an inch (25mm) is 
mentioned, taken over the floor of a room that is quite a lot and may 
well be noticable in regard to what is done on the walls in terms of 
decoration.

>> 
>> It can then be finished with a screed to the level of the floors in the 
>> surrounding rooms
> 
> Exactly and, by the sound of it, that won't be level either

It may or may not be depending on whether the other two rooms are level 
with one another.   Clearly if they are, the kitchen floor can be made 
level with them as well as flat and level itself.


> 
> 
> , leaving a flat surface
> 
>   onto which you could lay a
>> much nicer tiled floor
> 
> Why can't you allow people to make their own decisions?

I do, even if they are the wrong ones.     It can be a learning 
exercise for them.

> 
>   rather than ghastly laminate
> 
> I'm not a fan either but the OP's taste is nowt to do with me so I keep 
> my trap shut, and I suggest you do the same.

Why?    Laminate does look like cheap plastic crap, it is sensitive to 
water and is easily dinged and scratched.   It's noisy and clicky 
underfoot.   Kitchens are high traffic areas that involve water.

It's quite reasonable to point out that laminate is not suitable for kitchens.

I would actually argue that it's not suitable for anywhere apart from 
lining a skip, but that would be stretching this more towards an 
opinion.

However, "ghastly" is a pretty good adjective to sum it up.



> 
> , which isn't really
>> suitable for a kitchen anyway.
> 
> There are grades that are suitable but I guess you wouldn't want to know that.

Suitable for what?    You mean that they don't swell and buckle quite 
so much when they get wet?

Andy Hall wrote:

> However considering that a variation in level of an inch (25mm) is 
> mentioned, taken over the floor of a room that is quite a lot and may 
> well be noticable in regard to what is done on the walls in terms of 
> decoration.

I certainly wouldn't dig up a floor for the sake of an inch

>> Why can't you allow people to make their own decisions?
> 
> I do, even if they are the wrong ones.     It can be a learning exercise 
> for them.

Patronising as ever.

> Laminate does look like cheap plastic crap

It has its place. If I had a young family I might well consider it in 
certain areas.

, it is sensitive to
> water and is easily dinged and scratched. 

There are water resistant grades, just as there is waterproof chipboard, 
and it most certainly isn't easily damaged. It happens to be the chosen 
flooring for a number of recital rooms where grand pianos weighing well 
over half a ton with metal castors are wheeled about on a daily basis.

   It's noisy and clicky
> underfoot. 

Not on a solid floor it isn't.

> I would actually argue that it's not suitable for anywhere apart from 
> lining a skip, but that would be stretching this more towards an opinion.
> 
Just spare us your elitist ranting. Laminate is an inexpensive way for a 
lot of people to have low maintenance, practical flooring. Strange 
concept I know but maybe they regard their houses are somewhere to live 
while they get on with more interesting things.

On 2008-06-29 13:54:51 +0100, stuart noble  said:

> Andy Hall wrote:
> 
>> However considering that a variation in level of an inch (25mm) is 
>> mentioned, taken over the floor of a room that is quite a lot and may 
>> well be noticable in regard to what is done on the walls in terms of 
>> decoration.
> 
> I certainly wouldn't dig up a floor for the sake of an inch

So you think it's acceptable for things to be rolling around on the floor?

Here we have a situation where the floor is a mess and the discussion 
has been around complicated and messy scraping techniques that probably 
won't work for this degree of problem and then other rooms are going to 
have to  be disrupted to fix it as well.

It's simply not worth it.    Replacing the floor is the quickest, most 
cost effective and best way to achieve the required result and is doing 
the job properly as opposed to bodging.


> 
>>> Why can't you allow people to make their own decisions?
>> 
>> I do, even if they are the wrong ones.     It can be a learning 
>> exercise for them.
> 
> Patronising as ever.

Hardly.    All I have said is that the use of laminate in a kitchen is 
a really bad idea, which it is.     If somebody would like to spend the 
money on demonstrating that for themselves they can do so, I'm not 
stopping them.   Fortunately laminate is sufficiently cheap that the 
cost of learning won't be very high.     I don't think that it's 
patronising to point out to somebody that they would be making a 
mistake.


> 
>> Laminate does look like cheap plastic crap
> 
> It has its place. If I had a young family I might well consider it in 
> certain areas.

Where?    It's difficult to see any places where there isn't a much 
better solution.


> 
> , it is sensitive to
>> water and is easily dinged and scratched.
> 
> There are water resistant grades, just as there is waterproof 
> chipboard, and it most certainly isn't easily damaged. It happens to be 
> the chosen flooring for a number of recital rooms where grand pianos 
> weighing well over half a ton with metal castors are wheeled about on a 
> daily basis.

I've seen rooms like this.      With scratches all over them and grit 
pushed into the surface.


> 
>    It's noisy and clicky
>> underfoot.
> 
> Not on a solid floor it isn't.

I beg to differ.    It is.


> 
>> I would actually argue that it's not suitable for anywhere apart from 
>> lining a skip, but that would be stretching this more towards an 
>> opinion.
>> 
> Just spare us your elitist ranting.

What on earth are you burbling about now?

> Laminate is an inexpensive way for a lot of people to have low 
> maintenance, practical flooring.

It's about the worst way to have low maintenance, practical flooring - 
even worse than carpet if used in kitchens and bathrooms.


> Strange concept I know but maybe they regard their houses are somewhere 
> to live while they get on with more interesting things.

The strange concept is why anybody would want to cover their floor in 
clicky plastic.

> 
> So you think it's acceptable for things to be rolling around on the floor?

Who plays ball games in the kitchen? What things are going to roll about?

> Replacing the floor is the quickest, most
> cost effective and best way to achieve the required result and is doing 
> the job properly as opposed to bodging.

Unless you change the levels in the other rooms, all you can do is 
flatten the floor with the existing slope. What precisely would digging 
up the floor achieve?
> 
> 
>>
> All I have said is that the use of laminate in a kitchen is a
> really bad idea, which it is. 

You've said that *it* (regardless of the grade or quality) *is* crap and 
fit only to line a skip. I call that pompous, arrogant, and elitist.


>> It has its place. If I had a young family I might well consider it in 
>> certain areas.
> 
> Where?    It's difficult to see any places where there isn't a much 
> better solution.

If you can't see why a this is a practical floor covering with kids 
around then I give up. It seems to work well for a lot of people, but I 
guess they're all wrong

>> There are water resistant grades, just as there is waterproof 
>> chipboard, and it most certainly isn't easily damaged. It happens to 
>> be the chosen flooring for a number of recital rooms where grand 
>> pianos weighing well over half a ton with metal castors are wheeled 
>> about on a daily basis.
> 
> I've seen rooms like this.      With scratches all over them and grit 
> pushed into the surface.

I think you see what you want to see.

Thanks for all opinions.

The reason for the laminate, I've got experience of laying it and I
haven't found a tile that I like (within my budget).

If I were to rip up the floor, waht would be involved?

Thanks

On 2008-06-29 15:02:47 +0100, stuart noble  said:

> 
>> 
>> So you think it's acceptable for things to be rolling around on the floor?
> 
> Who plays ball games in the kitchen? What things are going to roll about?

Anything with a round profile


> 
>> Replacing the floor is the quickest, most
>> cost effective and best way to achieve the required result and is doing 
>> the job properly as opposed to bodging.
> 
> Unless you change the levels in the other rooms, all you can do is 
> flatten the floor with the existing slope.

Huh?


> What precisely would digging up the floor achieve?

Once again.

- The existing floor is neither level nor flat.

- Reducing the high point would reduce the floor to below that of the 
surrounding rooms necessitating adjustments to be made to them.

- Replacing the floor would permit one that is on the same level as the 
surrounding rooms, level in itself (as in bubble central in spirit 
level all over), and by definition, as a result, flat.




>> 
>> 
>>> 
>> All I have said is that the use of laminate in a kitchen is a
>> really bad idea, which it is.
> 
> You've said that *it* (regardless of the grade or quality) *is* crap 
> and fit only to line a skip. I call that pompous, arrogant, and elitist.

I'd call it kind.  A better solution would be not to buy it in the first place.

> 
> 
>>> It has its place. If I had a young family I might well consider it in 
>>> certain areas.
>> 
>> Where?    It's difficult to see any places where there isn't a much 
>> better solution.
> 
> If you can't see why a this is a practical floor covering with kids 
> around then I give up. It seems to work well for a lot of people, but I 
> guess they're all wrong

I suppose that they are willing to accept the scratches, dings, 
clicking and swelling of the joints.    Personally I wouldn't......


> 
>>> There are water resistant grades, just as there is waterproof 
>>> chipboard, and it most certainly isn't easily damaged. It happens to be 
>>> the chosen flooring for a number of recital rooms where grand pianos 
>>> weighing well over half a ton with metal castors are wheeled about on a 
>>> daily basis.
>> 
>> I've seen rooms like this.      With scratches all over them and grit 
>> pushed into the surface.
> 
> I think you see what you want to see.

I don't really want to see plastic floors with a pattern repeat covered 
in scratches and dents.

On 2008-06-29 15:16:37 +0100, tvmo  said:

> Thanks for all opinions.
> 
> The reason for the laminate, I've got experience of laying it and I
> haven't found a tile that I like (within my budget).

It's worth spending the time to look.   Try a variety of places, 
including trade ones, not just the DIY stores and volume warehouses.

For a recent project involving a cloakroom, I spent more time selecting 
and sourcing tiles than any other part of the project.



> 
> If I were to rip up the floor, waht would be involved?


Normally something like a Kango hammer to break it up and then some 
graft to remove the lumps.

Thanks.

What depth should I go down to.

And what about replacing what I've dug up? Materials, mixes, etc.

Sorry I'm completely ignorant about such matters.

"tvmo"  wrote in message 
news:08c7c907-af39-4db2-86fd-d819cb1a73ec@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> Thanks.
>
> What depth should I go down to.
>
> And what about replacing what I've dug up? Materials, mixes, etc.
>
> Sorry I'm completely ignorant about such matters.
>

I'm confused here.  You already have a concrete floor in your kitchen.  It 
appears uneven only so far it is higher at one point than the other.  Floor 
levelling compound only fills the immediate low points, it doesn't level the 
floor as such.  1" out in a few feet is normally regarded as level for all 
intents and purposes.

Why do you need to replace your floor?

Tim wrote:
> "tvmo"  wrote in message 
> news:08c7c907-af39-4db2-86fd-d819cb1a73ec@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>> Thanks.
>>
>> What depth should I go down to.
>>
>> And what about replacing what I've dug up? Materials, mixes, etc.
>>
>> Sorry I'm completely ignorant about such matters.
>>
> 
> I'm confused here.  You already have a concrete floor in your kitchen.  It 
> appears uneven only so far it is higher at one point than the other.  Floor 
> levelling compound only fills the immediate low points, it doesn't level the 
> floor as such.  1" out in a few feet is normally regarded as level for all 
> intents and purposes.
> 
> Why do you need to replace your floor?
> 
> 

Apparently because spherical objects may not remain stationary if placed 
on such a surface. Indeed, items such as fruit and vegetables, may 
behave similarly.  Such unpredictability is, frankly, unacceptable.

On 2008-06-29 16:41:20 +0100, stuart noble  said:

> Tim wrote:
>> "tvmo"  wrote in message 
>> news:08c7c907-af39-4db2-86fd-d819cb1a73ec@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>>> Thanks.
>>> 
>>> What depth should I go down to.
>>> 
>>> And what about replacing what I've dug up? Materials, mixes, etc.
>>> 
>>> Sorry I'm completely ignorant about such matters.
>>> 
>> 
>> I'm confused here.  You already have a concrete floor in your kitchen.  
>> It appears uneven only so far it is higher at one point than the other. 
>>  Floor levelling compound only fills the immediate low points, it 
>> doesn't level the floor as such.  1" out in a few feet is normally 
>> regarded as level for all intents and purposes.
>> 
>> Why do you need to replace your floor?
>> 
>> 
> 
> Apparently because spherical objects may not remain stationary if 
> placed on such a surface. Indeed, items such as fruit and vegetables, 
> may behave similarly.  Such unpredictability is, frankly, unacceptable.

So would tripping over at a step to another room......

Andy Hall wrote:
> On 2008-06-29 16:41:20 +0100, stuart noble  
> said:
> 
>> Tim wrote:
>>> "tvmo"  wrote in message 
>>> news:08c7c907-af39-4db2-86fd-d819cb1a73ec@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> What depth should I go down to.
>>>>
>>>> And what about replacing what I've dug up? Materials, mixes, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry I'm completely ignorant about such matters.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm confused here.  You already have a concrete floor in your 
>>> kitchen.  It appears uneven only so far it is higher at one point 
>>> than the other.  Floor levelling compound only fills the immediate 
>>> low points, it doesn't level the floor as such.  1" out in a few feet 
>>> is normally regarded as level for all intents and purposes.
>>>
>>> Why do you need to replace your floor?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Apparently because spherical objects may not remain stationary if 
>> placed on such a surface. Indeed, items such as fruit and vegetables, 
>> may behave similarly.  Such unpredictability is, frankly, unacceptable.
> 
> So would tripping over at a step to another room......
> 
> 
And unless and until the OP explains further, no-one can really 
understand the problem and advise appropriately.

Is it a thin concrete layer that was put down very badly?

Has someone mixed concrete on top of a perfectly good slab and left it 
to dry?

Has a substantial slab tipped due to movement of the house?

Has the slab moved relative to the walls?

Is it a new or an old building?

Is the existing floor insulated?

What lies beneath the floor (e.g. cellar, chalk, clay, rock)?

Do any services run through/under the floor? (Drains, water, CH, gas, 
electricity.)

Is there a back door to think about?

Any chance of some photographs posted somewhere?

-- 
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious 
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
<www.thyromind.info> <www.thyroiduk.org> <www.altsupportthyroid.org>

if you drop an apple or a ball on a perfectly level floor
it will bounce and roll...

are you planning on having the world marble championship on your kitchen 
floor?
or golf?

ledges at doors are a tripping hazard. BAD

a little slope might be good if water leaks on it

uneven floors however would puddle..

maybe kitchen floor should slope towards the middle
so there arent puddles under the units etc making unnoticed dampness and 
mould

maybe you should dig an exploratory hole somewhere where you wont fall in it
and see whats under the concrete.

maybe itd be worth insulating it.

maybe its already insulated, or dry underneath.

if its damp underneath then maybe a damp membrane would be worth doing,
if dry then not.

depends on if the land is lower outside the house,
and on many other things

interesting - ive got a kitchen floor to look at some time...

[george]

Actually, I was being a bit (very) optimistic about the inch. The
floor actually drops 3.5 inches over a 3 metre length.

My wife explained to me what an inch was. Apparantly she lied!

"tvmo"  wrote in message 
news:a78dd9f0-aab0-4012-9b61-0e165cb02815@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> Actually, I was being a bit (very) optimistic about the inch. The
> floor actually drops 3.5 inches over a 3 metre length.
>
> My wife explained to me what an inch was. Apparantly she lied!
>

Ouch!!

I feel that sort of gradient would be a bit noticeable.  I have a policy 
that if it looks level it probably is, however with a slope like that I'd be 
tempted to build it up to make it nominally level.  Rather than have a step, 
have a faster slope down into the next room.  Not sure what else I'd do?

To answer some questions (and to ask some more):

>are you planning on having the world marble championship on your kitchen
floor?
or golf?

No plans at present, though this could change.

> Is it a thin concrete layer that was put down very badly?

How can I tell?


> Has someone mixed concrete on top of a perfectly good slab and left it
to dry?

How can I tell?


>Has a substantial slab tipped due to movement of the house?

Don't think so, there are no signs of movement.


> Has the slab moved relative to the walls?

How can I tell?

> Is it a new or an old building?

Built 1950s, though it has been extended. The kitchen looks like it is
built from blocks.

>Is the existing floor insulated?

How can I tell?

>What lies beneath the floor (e.g. cellar, chalk, clay, rock)?

I'm presuming clay/rock.

>Do any services run through/under the floor? (Drains, water, CH, gas,
electricity.)

I'm pretty sure there aren't any, though I can't be 100%


>Is there a back door to think about?

No


>Any chance of some photographs posted somewhere?

How can I post the photos?

Cheers

In message <4867f215$1_3@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com>, Tim 
 writes
>
>"tvmo"  wrote in message
>news:a78dd9f0-aab0-4012-9b61-0e165cb02815@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>> Actually, I was being a bit (very) optimistic about the inch. The
>> floor actually drops 3.5 inches over a 3 metre length.
>>
>> My wife explained to me what an inch was. Apparantly she lied!
>>
>
>Ouch!!
>
>I feel that sort of gradient would be a bit noticeable.  I have a policy
>that if it looks level it probably is, however with a slope like that I'd be
>tempted to build it up to make it nominally level.  Rather than have a step,
>have a faster slope down into the next room.  Not sure what else I'd do?
>
If you want something REALLY flat

the atmosphere in any german bar would take some beating at the moment

-- 
geoff

On 2008-06-29 21:21:24 +0100, tvmo  said:

> Actually, I was being a bit (very) optimistic about the inch. The
> floor actually drops 3.5 inches over a 3 metre length.
> 
> My wife explained to me what an inch was. Apparantly she lied!

Are you sure it wasn't you?  Oh no.   That would be the other way 
round.   Probably.

I think that you are going to need to look at this on a more complete 
basis, measure up and do some proper assessment.     This is beyond a 
bit of tweaking and filling, I think.

However, it's not horrendous either.

On 2008-06-29 21:54:27 +0100, geoff  said:

> In message <4867f215$1_3@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com>, Tim 
>  writes
>> 
>> "tvmo"  wrote in message
>> news:a78dd9f0-aab0-4012-9b61-0e165cb02815@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>> Actually, I was being a bit (very) optimistic about the inch. The
>>> floor actually drops 3.5 inches over a 3 metre length.
>>> 
>>> My wife explained to me what an inch was. Apparantly she lied!
>>> 
>> 
>> Ouch!!
>> 
>> I feel that sort of gradient would be a bit noticeable.  I have a policy
>> that if it looks level it probably is, however with a slope like that I'd be
>> tempted to build it up to make it nominally level.  Rather than have a step,
>> have a faster slope down into the next room.  Not sure what else I'd do?
>> 
> If you want something REALLY flat
> 
> the atmosphere in any german bar would take some beating at the moment

Wot, no Ein Prosit.?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGF1wFj9FSI

In message <4868003f@qaanaaq>, Andy Hall <andyh@hall.nospam> writes
>On 2008-06-29 21:54:27 +0100, geoff  said:
>
>> In message <4867f215$1_3@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com>, Tim 
>> writes
>>>  "tvmo"  wrote in message
>>> news:a78dd9f0-aab0-4012-9b61-0e165cb02815@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>>> Actually, I was being a bit (very) optimistic about the inch. The
>>>> floor actually drops 3.5 inches over a 3 metre length.
>>>>  My wife explained to me what an inch was. Apparantly she lied!
>>>>
>>>  Ouch!!
>>>  I feel that sort of gradient would be a bit noticeable.  I have a 
>>>policy
>>> that if it looks level it probably is, however with a slope like that I'd be
>>> tempted to build it up to make it nominally level.  Rather than have a step,
>>> have a faster slope down into the next room.  Not sure what else I'd do?
>>>
>> If you want something REALLY flat
>>  the atmosphere in any german bar would take some beating at the 
>>moment
>
>Wot, no Ein Prosit.?
>
Just an eins zu null ...


Oktoberfest - Yuck

-- 
geoff

On 2008-06-29 22:44:49 +0100, geoff  said:

> In message <4868003f@qaanaaq>, Andy Hall <andyh@hall.nospam> writes
>> On 2008-06-29 21:54:27 +0100, geoff  said:
>> 
>>> In message <4867f215$1_3@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com>, Tim 
>>>  writes
>>>>  "tvmo"  wrote in message
>>>> news:a78dd9f0-aab0-4012-9b61-0e165cb02815@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> Actually, I was being a bit (very) optimistic about the inch. The
>>>>> floor actually drops 3.5 inches over a 3 metre length.
>>>>>  My wife explained to me what an inch was. Apparantly she lied!
>>>>> 
>>>>  Ouch!!
>>>>  I feel that sort of gradient would be a bit noticeable.  I have a policy
>>>> that if it looks level it probably is, however with a slope like that I'd be
>>>> tempted to build it up to make it nominally level.  Rather than have a step,
>>>> have a faster slope down into the next room.  Not sure what else I'd do?
>>>> 
>>> If you want something REALLY flat
>>>  the atmosphere in any german bar would take some beating at the moment
>> 
>> Wot, no Ein Prosit.?
>> 
> Just an eins zu null ...
> 
> 
> Oktoberfest - Yuck

Quite.

I went to it once.  Just the once.    I think I went into the Loewenbrau tent.

At any rate, it was a production line.    There was a tanker parked at 
the back with a hose about the size of one on a petrol tanker.   This 
connected to the row of taps at the back of the bar whiich were pretty 
much solidly on - i\d guess about 20.

At the other side of the business, there was a building at the back 
with a lengthy urinal and people were supposed to shuffle sideways as 
they tiddled.   This was to maintain the flow of traffic.

I'm not sure whether the loop was closed back to the tanker.

In message <48681339@qaanaaq>, Andy Hall <andyh@hall.nospam> writes
>On 2008-06-29 22:44:49 +0100, geoff  said:
>
>> In message <4868003f@qaanaaq>, Andy Hall <andyh@hall.nospam> writes
>>> On 2008-06-29 21:54:27 +0100, geoff  said:
>>>
>>>> In message <4867f215$1_3@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com>, Tim 
>>>> writes
>>>>>  "tvmo"  wrote in message
>>>>> news:a78dd9f0-aab0-4012-9b61-0e165cb02815@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>> Actually, I was being a bit (very) optimistic about the inch. The
>>>>>> floor actually drops 3.5 inches over a 3 metre length.
>>>>>>  My wife explained to me what an inch was. Apparantly she lied!
>>>>>>
>>>>>  Ouch!!
>>>>>  I feel that sort of gradient would be a bit noticeable.  I have a policy
>>>>> that if it looks level it probably is, however with a slope like 
>>>>>that I'd be
>>>>> tempted to build it up to make it nominally level.  Rather than 
>>>>>have a step,
>>>>> have a faster slope down into the next room.  Not sure what else I'd do?
>>>>>
>>>> If you want something REALLY flat
>>>>  the atmosphere in any german bar would take some beating at the moment
>>>  Wot, no Ein Prosit.?
>>>
>> Just an eins zu null ...
>>   Oktoberfest - Yuck
>
>Quite.
>
>I went to it once.  Just the once.    I think I went into the Loewenbrau tent.

We HAD to go, a sort of departmental ritual, relatively easy from 
Nuernberg

We got on the wrong train going back and ended up pissed as farts at 5am 
in Regensburg

I still made it into work on time - a true contractor ...


>
>At any rate, it was a production line.    There was a tanker parked at 
>the back with a hose about the size of one on a petrol tanker.   This 
>connected to the row of taps at the back of the bar whiich were pretty 
>much solidly on - i\d guess about 20.
>
>At the other side of the business, there was a building at the back 
>with a lengthy urinal and people were supposed to shuffle sideways as 
>they tiddled.   This was to maintain the flow of traffic.

with an little old woman sitting there collecting your 20 pfennigs

>
>I'm not sure whether the loop was closed back to the tanker.
>
Seems a shame when every town and village south of Wuertzburg has it's 
own Kirchweih which is far friendlier and more fun

Erlangen bergkirchweih was one of the best

Aah halcyon daze ...

-- 
geoff

I've just replaced a kitchen floor, dug out the old concrete down 7",
and provided sand, insulation, dpm, new concrete.  It is quite a job
if like me you haven't done it before. In retrospect, I'd do this:
Get a good 6 foot spirit level. Put one end on the high point of the
floor, and the other end at the lowest point that it'll reach. Prop
the level at the lowest point with bits of wood until the bubble is in
the middle.  Measure the distance you've had to raise it. This is
accurate.  If it really is 2" over 2m, you need to renew the floor. If
it's less than an inch over the whole floor, comprimise. Use screed or
self levelling compound to get it close to 1/2 "  . Raise the floor in
the adjacent roomr by half the distance by putting an extra layer of
insulation on it before the carpet/wood/laminate finish.  The steps at
the 2 thresholds will be negligable.

What are the length and width of your kitchen?

To

On 2008-06-30 00:10:52 +0100, geoff  said:
>> 
> 
> We HAD to go, a sort of departmental ritual, relatively easy from Nuernberg
> 
> We got on the wrong train going back and ended up pissed as farts at 
> 5am in Regensburg
> 
> I still made it into work on time - a true contractor ...

Ah yes.   ObPissup.  The teutonic way.


> 
> 
>> 
>> At any rate, it was a production line.    There was a tanker parked at 
>> the back with a hose about the size of one on a petrol tanker.   This 
>> connected to the row of taps at the back of the bar whiich were pretty 
>> much solidly on - i\d guess about 20.
>> 
>> At the other side of the business, there was a building at the back 
>> with a lengthy urinal and people were supposed to shuffle sideways as 
>> they tiddled.   This was to maintain the flow of traffic.
> 
> with an little old woman sitting there collecting your 20 pfennigs

It was the production line efficiency of it all that amused me.


> 
>> 
>> I'm not sure whether the loop was closed back to the tanker.
>> 
> Seems a shame when every town and village south of Wuertzburg has it's 
> own Kirchweih which is far friendlier and more fun
> 
> Erlangen bergkirchweih was one of the best
> 
> Aah halcyon daze ...

tvmo wrote:
> To answer some questions (and to ask some more):
> 
>> are you planning on having the world marble championship on your kitchen
> floor?
> or golf?
> 
> No plans at present, though this could change.
> 
>> Is it a thin concrete layer that was put down very badly?
> 
> How can I tell?
> 
> 
>> Has someone mixed concrete on top of a perfectly good slab and left it
> to dry?
> 
> How can I tell?
> 
> 
>> Has a substantial slab tipped due to movement of the house?
> 
> Don't think so, there are no signs of movement.
> 
> 
>> Has the slab moved relative to the walls?
> 
> How can I tell?
> 
>> Is it a new or an old building?
> 
> Built 1950s, though it has been extended. The kitchen looks like it is
> built from blocks.
> 
>> Is the existing floor insulated?
> 
> How can I tell?
> 
>> What lies beneath the floor (e.g. cellar, chalk, clay, rock)?
> 
> I'm presuming clay/rock.
> 
>> Do any services run through/under the floor? (Drains, water, CH, gas,
> electricity.)
> 
> I'm pretty sure there aren't any, though I can't be 100%
> 
> 
>> Is there a back door to think about?
> 
> No
> 
> 
>> Any chance of some photographs posted somewhere?
> 
> How can I post the photos?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> 

Is the surface of the floor smooth and, although not level, is it even?

If not sort of suggests it is crap.

If you knock on the floor, does it sound hollow?

If so, means there could be voids below. Again, suggests not laid very well.

Does the room have obvious places where skirting boards have been 
replaced/reattached due to movement of floor relative to walls?

If so, suggests a possibly serious problem.


To be honest, digging it out and replacing, while a lot of work, mess, 
money - might be the best choice by far. Surely anyone who was competent 
would never have laid a floor as out of level as you report? But there 
is always a chance that it was done like this for a reason (albeit not a 
good one) and you will find out why as you replace it.

You do need to get advice on exactly how to construct the new floor. 
Others here know far more than I do about the best techniues.

There are lots of photo sites such as Flickr. I can't remember the last 
one recommended here. Search and you will find one. Upload and post links.

-- 
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious 
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
<www.thyromind.info> <www.thyroiduk.org> <www.altsupportthyroid.org>