My piped water central heating system is fired by a wall mounted Baxi gas 
burner.
I want to replace the timer switch that controls when it comes on/off.
BUT - I find TWO supply cables (3 core) disappearing into the burner 
innards.
One cable goes pack to the timer.
The other goes to a permanent live supply (can only be switched off back at 
the fuse box).

Is this a botched wiring job or is there a reason for two supplies?

Ger

"ger"  wrote in message 
news:03BXj.25465$j7.469473@news.indigo.ie...
> My piped water central heating system is fired by a wall mounted Baxi gas 
> burner.
> I want to replace the timer switch that controls when it comes on/off.
> BUT - I find TWO supply cables (3 core) disappearing into the burner 
> innards.
> One cable goes pack to the timer.
> The other goes to a permanent live supply (can only be switched off back 
> at the fuse box).
>
> Is this a botched wiring job or is there a reason for two supplies?
>
> Ger
>
Why would you describe it as botched because you don't know how it works?
I would leave the DIY to someone that knows exactly what they are doing.
You might not get on too well with electric AND gas in such a small area.
Have all the emergency numbers nearby.

In message <03BXj.25465$j7.469473@news.indigo.ie>, ger 
 writes
>My piped water central heating system is fired by a wall mounted Baxi gas
>burner.
>I want to replace the timer switch that controls when it comes on/off.
>BUT - I find TWO supply cables (3 core) disappearing into the burner
>innards.
>One cable goes pack to the timer.
>The other goes to a permanent live supply (can only be switched off back at
>the fuse box).
>
>Is this a botched wiring job or is there a reason for two supplies?
>
Well, in light of the fact that you've not really given much useful info

probably one is powering the timer, one is switching the boiler


-- 
geoff

"Rob"  wrote in message 
news:g0n00a$fd7$1@news.albasani.net...
>
> "ger"  wrote in message 
> news:03BXj.25465$j7.469473@news.indigo.ie...
>> My piped water central heating system is fired by a wall mounted Baxi gas 
>> burner.
>> I want to replace the timer switch that controls when it comes on/off.
>> BUT - I find TWO supply cables (3 core) disappearing into the burner 
>> innards.
>> One cable goes pack to the timer.
>> The other goes to a permanent live supply (can only be switched off back 
>> at the fuse box).
>>
>> Is this a botched wiring job or is there a reason for two supplies?
>>
>> Ger
>>
> Why would you describe it as botched because you don't know how it works?
> I would leave the DIY to someone that knows exactly what they are doing.
> You might not get on too well with electric AND gas in such a small area.
> Have all the emergency numbers nearby.
>
>
Thank you for your response Rob.
I felt that any wiring that goes directly to an appliance, without an 
isolation switch, is botched?
Am I wrong?

I would also please appreciate an answer to my question - do gas burners 
typically require two electrical feeds?
And if so, why?

The timer is remote from the burner so I should be safe from gas.
But your tip is appreciated, I'll have the emergency numbers nearby.

Ger

"geoff"  wrote in message 
news:7Wk1RFQumwLIFwFc@ntlworld.com...
> In message <03BXj.25465$j7.469473@news.indigo.ie>, ger 
>  writes
>>My piped water central heating system is fired by a wall mounted Baxi gas
>>burner.
>>I want to replace the timer switch that controls when it comes on/off.
>>BUT - I find TWO supply cables (3 core) disappearing into the burner
>>innards.
>>One cable goes pack to the timer.
>>The other goes to a permanent live supply (can only be switched off back 
>>at
>>the fuse box).
>>
>>Is this a botched wiring job or is there a reason for two supplies?
>>
> Well, in light of the fact that you've not really given much useful info
>
> probably one is powering the timer, one is switching the boiler
>
>
> -- 
> geoff

Thanks Geoff.
I has assumed that the only supply to the burner would be switched on/of via 
the timer.
I was hoping to be told that for some reason, gas burners require two 
supplies.
Perhaps one from the timer to start/stop the burner, and one for the water 
pump to operate independently.
Or for some other purpose, unknown to me.

Ger

"ger"  wrote in message 
news:1ZDXj.25468$j7.469396@news.indigo.ie...
>
> "Rob"  wrote in message 
> news:g0n00a$fd7$1@news.albasani.net...
>>
>> "ger"  wrote in message 
>> news:03BXj.25465$j7.469473@news.indigo.ie...
>>> My piped water central heating system is fired by a wall mounted Baxi 
>>> gas burner.
>>> I want to replace the timer switch that controls when it comes on/off.
>>> BUT - I find TWO supply cables (3 core) disappearing into the burner 
>>> innards.
>>> One cable goes pack to the timer.
>>> The other goes to a permanent live supply (can only be switched off back 
>>> at the fuse box).
>>>
>>> Is this a botched wiring job or is there a reason for two supplies?
>>>
>>> Ger
>>>
>> Why would you describe it as botched because you don't know how it works?
>> I would leave the DIY to someone that knows exactly what they are doing.
>> You might not get on too well with electric AND gas in such a small area.
>> Have all the emergency numbers nearby.
>>
>>
> Thank you for your response Rob.
> I felt that any wiring that goes directly to an appliance, without an 
> isolation switch, is botched?
> Am I wrong?
>
> I would also please appreciate an answer to my question - do gas burners 
> typically require two electrical feeds?
> And if so, why?

Mine has three "feeds":- mains in, pump out, timer out.

In message <n1EXj.25469$j7.469454@news.indigo.ie>, ger 
 writes
>
>"geoff"  wrote in message
>news:7Wk1RFQumwLIFwFc@ntlworld.com...
>> In message <03BXj.25465$j7.469473@news.indigo.ie>, ger
>>  writes
>>>My piped water central heating system is fired by a wall mounted Baxi gas
>>>burner.
>>>I want to replace the timer switch that controls when it comes on/off.
>>>BUT - I find TWO supply cables (3 core) disappearing into the burner
>>>innards.
>>>One cable goes pack to the timer.
>>>The other goes to a permanent live supply (can only be switched off back
>>>at
>>>the fuse box).
>>>
>>>Is this a botched wiring job or is there a reason for two supplies?
>>>
>> Well, in light of the fact that you've not really given much useful info
>>
>> probably one is powering the timer, one is switching the boiler
>>
>
>Thanks Geoff.
>I has assumed that the only supply to the burner would be switched on/of via
>the timer.
>I was hoping to be told that for some reason, gas burners require two
>supplies.
>Perhaps one from the timer to start/stop the burner, and one for the water
>pump to operate independently.
>Or for some other purpose, unknown to me.
>

Most modern boilers have a permanent live and a switched live, the SWL 
being to tell the boiler to fire up


-- 
geoff

On Sat, 17 May 2008 14:27:39 +0100, ger wrote:

> My piped water central heating system is fired by a wall mounted Baxi gas 
> burner.
> I want to replace the timer switch that controls when it comes on/off.
> BUT - I find TWO supply cables (3 core) disappearing into the burner 
> innards.
> One cable goes pack to the timer.
> The other goes to a permanent live supply (can only be switched off back at 
> the fuse box).
> 
> Is this a botched wiring job or is there a reason for two supplies?

There should be one and only one source of power to the system, and that
must be cabable of being isolated by a gap of at least 3mm in both live
and neutral poles. (I put it like that because a plug and socket
arrangement does comply in that respect, though it's not strictly kosher.)

If the supply can only be switched at the fuse box then it's wrong.
Whether you label that a bodge is up to you.

The boiler (you don't say what model) may require a permanent live supply
(e.g. so that it can control the pump) and may be intended to be connected
to an external thermostat and possibly also time switch etc - depending on
model and age.

-- 
John Stumbles

This message has been rot13 encrypted twice for added security

ger wrote:

> I has assumed that the only supply to the burner would be switched on/of via 
> the timer.
> I was hoping to be told that for some reason, gas burners require two 
> supplies.
> Perhaps one from the timer to start/stop the burner, and one for the water 
> pump to operate independently.
> Or for some other purpose, unknown to me.

Modern(ish) boiler will feature a pump overrun capability and hence need 
a permanent live supply as well as the switched live from the 
thermostat/programmer. The programmer may also require its own supply.

-- 
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
|          Internode Ltd -  http://www.internode.co.uk            |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
|        John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk              |
\=================================================================/

"John Stumbles"  wrote in message 
news:dyEXj.15659$ie5.14213@newsfe05.ams2...
> On Sat, 17 May 2008 14:27:39 +0100, ger wrote:
>
>> My piped water central heating system is fired by a wall mounted Baxi gas
>> burner.
>> I want to replace the timer switch that controls when it comes on/off.
>> BUT - I find TWO supply cables (3 core) disappearing into the burner
>> innards.
>> One cable goes pack to the timer.
>> The other goes to a permanent live supply (can only be switched off back 
>> at
>> the fuse box).
>>
>> Is this a botched wiring job or is there a reason for two supplies?
>
> There should be one and only one source of power to the system, and that
> must be cabable of being isolated by a gap of at least 3mm in both live
> and neutral poles. (I put it like that because a plug and socket
> arrangement does comply in that respect, though it's not strictly kosher.)
>
> If the supply can only be switched at the fuse box then it's wrong.
> Whether you label that a bodge is up to you.
>
> The boiler (you don't say what model) may require a permanent live supply
> (e.g. so that it can control the pump) and may be intended to be connected
> to an external thermostat and possibly also time switch etc - depending on
> model and age.
>
> -- 
> John Stumbles
>
> This message has been rot13 encrypted twice for added security

Thanks to all.
Looks like the permanent live supply is for the pump.
The timer is for the burner.
BTW - it's a BAXI burner.
Ger

On Sat, 17 May 2008 21:10:22 +0100, ger wrote:

> BTW - it's a BAXI burner.

Yes you said that in the original post. I don't suppose you'd like to
share with us which, of dozens of models of boiler Baxi have produced
over the last half-century or so, it is?

And they're called boilers: the burner is part of the boiler.

-- 
John Stumbles

Extreme moderate

On Sat, 17 May 2008 21:10:22 +0100, ger wrote:

> BTW - it's a BAXI burner.

Yes you said that in the original post. I don't suppose you'd like to
share with us which, of dozens of models of boiler Baxi have produced
over the last half-century or so, it is?

And they're called boilers: the burner is part of the boiler.

-- 
John Stumbles

Extreme moderate

"John Stumbles"  wrote in message 
news:uRHXj.39818$66.11431@newsfe20.ams2...
> On Sat, 17 May 2008 21:10:22 +0100, ger wrote:
>
>> BTW - it's a BAXI burner.
>
> Yes you said that in the original post. I don't suppose you'd like to
> share with us which, of dozens of models of boiler Baxi have produced
> over the last half-century or so, it is?
>
> And they're called boilers: the burner is part of the boiler.
>
> -- 
> John Stumbles
>
> Extreme moderate

John, there's a crabbiness in the tone of your response.
I was doing my best to provide as much information as I thought necessary.
If I failed in that, I apologise.
I will refer to them as boilers in future.  I am the wiser.
I wasn't aware that Baxi have been making boilers for 50 years.  I am now.
But if you expert members of the group want to encourage us learners, it
would help if you adopted a somewhat more sympathetic attitude.
I moderate some forums in my own area of expertise.
If I saw a response like yours above I would reprimand the poster.
Ger

In message <CrIXj.25480$j7.469387@news.indigo.ie>, ger 
 writes
>
>"John Stumbles"  wrote in message
>news:uRHXj.39818$66.11431@newsfe20.ams2...
>> On Sat, 17 May 2008 21:10:22 +0100, ger wrote:
>>
>>> BTW - it's a BAXI burner.
>>
>> Yes you said that in the original post. I don't suppose you'd like to
>> share with us which, of dozens of models of boiler Baxi have produced
>> over the last half-century or so, it is?
>>
>> And they're called boilers: the burner is part of the boiler.
>>
>> --
>> John Stumbles
>>
>> Extreme moderate
>
>John, there's a crabbiness in the tone of your response.
>I was doing my best to provide as much information as I thought necessary.
>If I failed in that, I apologise.
>I will refer to them as boilers in future.  I am the wiser.
>I wasn't aware that Baxi have been making boilers for 50 years.  I am now.
>But if you expert members of the group want to encourage us learners, it
>would help if you adopted a somewhat more sympathetic attitude.
>I moderate some forums in my own area of expertise.
>If I saw a response like yours above I would reprimand the poster.

I think that gets a FRO from those who know

I (being normally more abrasive), held back from saying exactly the same 
as John did

You didn't have the intelligence to say what boiler or what timer

a bit like saying I have a ford with a radio in it what colour wires go 
to the speakers

wanker ...

-- 
geoff

On Sat, 17 May 2008 21:51:43 UTC, "ger"  wrote:

> I will refer to them as boilers in future.  I am the wiser.

You can be excused that.

But it isn't rocket science to realise that you gave far too little 
information about the boiler and the problem itself.

-- 
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
   http://www.diybanter.com

"ger"  wrote in message 
news:CrIXj.25480$j7.469387@news.indigo.ie...
>
> John, there's a crabbiness in the tone of your response.
> I was doing my best to provide as much information as I thought necessary.
> If I failed in that, I apologise.
> I will refer to them as boilers in future.  I am the wiser.
> I wasn't aware that Baxi have been making boilers for 50 years.  I am now.
> But if you expert members of the group want to encourage us learners, it
> would help if you adopted a somewhat more sympathetic attitude.
> I moderate some forums in my own area of expertise.
> If I saw a response like yours above I would reprimand the poster.

This is usenet - no moderation. People can to be a little more abrasive, and 
may even appear to be downright rude. However uk.d-i-y is actually chock 
full of helpful people - if you're willing to put in the effort, and shrug 
off the reprimands you'll get if you're appearing to be a numpty, you'll 
find it's actually a very worthwhile resource. It's not the tone of what's 
said which is important here, it's the content.

Treat is as a pub where there are regulars who've been there for years - you 
wouldn't wander into the room of strangers and tell them off, and you should 
be careful not to do it here.

Re the original problem - if you've got questions about this sort of thing, 
you need to give as much information as possible - eg boiler model number, 
in this case.

clive

ger wrote:
> "John Stumbles"  wrote in message 
> news:uRHXj.39818$66.11431@newsfe20.ams2...
>> On Sat, 17 May 2008 21:10:22 +0100, ger wrote:
>>
>>> BTW - it's a BAXI burner.
>> Yes you said that in the original post. I don't suppose you'd like to
>> share with us which, of dozens of models of boiler Baxi have produced
>> over the last half-century or so, it is?
>>
>> And they're called boilers: the burner is part of the boiler.
>>
>> -- 
>> John Stumbles
>>
>> Extreme moderate
> 
> John, there's a crabbiness in the tone of your response.
> I was doing my best to provide as much information as I thought necessary.
> If I failed in that, I apologise.

<snip>

> If I saw a response like yours above I would reprimand the poster.
> Ger 

Ger don't get to bent out of shape over this, I am sure John was not 
really being crabby, but was perhaps reacting to what seemed like a 
rather impossible question given the large number of permutations.

If you have a look at our wiki you will find many excellent articles on 
these subjects (a good number written by competent and respected 
uk.d-i-y regulars like John):

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Heating



-- 
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
|          Internode Ltd -  http://www.internode.co.uk            |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
|        John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk              |
\=================================================================/

"John Rumm"  wrote in message 
news:NYadnXWiK8QUOrLVnZ2dnUVZ8tDinZ2d@posted.plusnet...
> ger wrote:
>> "John Stumbles"  wrote in message 
>> news:uRHXj.39818$66.11431@newsfe20.ams2...
>>> On Sat, 17 May 2008 21:10:22 +0100, ger wrote:
>>>
>>>> BTW - it's a BAXI burner.
>>> Yes you said that in the original post. I don't suppose you'd like to
>>> share with us which, of dozens of models of boiler Baxi have produced
>>> over the last half-century or so, it is?
>>>
>>> And they're called boilers: the burner is part of the boiler.
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> John Stumbles
>>>
>>> Extreme moderate
>>
>> John, there's a crabbiness in the tone of your response.
>> I was doing my best to provide as much information as I thought 
>> necessary.
>> If I failed in that, I apologise.
>
> <snip>
>
>> If I saw a response like yours above I would reprimand the poster.
>> Ger
>
> Ger don't get to bent out of shape over this, I am sure John was not 
> really being crabby, but was perhaps reacting to what seemed like a rather 
> impossible question given the large number of permutations.
>
> If you have a look at our wiki you will find many excellent articles on 
> these subjects (a good number written by competent and respected uk.d-i-y 
> regulars like John):
>
> http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Heating
>
>
>
> -- 
> Cheers,
>
> John.
>
> /=================================================================\
> |          Internode Ltd -  http://www.internode.co.uk            |
> |-----------------------------------------------------------------|
> |        John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk              |
> \=================================================================/

OK, OK, looks like I am outvoted on this one  :)

I stand corrected and will try harder in future.

Ger.

On Sun, 18 May 2008 04:52:33 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

> Ger don't get to bent out of shape over this, I am sure John was not 
> really being crabby

I was actually :-)

ger had already told us in his first post that he had a Baxi. As Geoff
points out that's like saying you have a Ford or a Vauxhall. Then he said
it a second time as though that helped ...

-- 
John Stumbles

What is a simile like?

On 2008-05-18 12:09:59 +0100, John Stumbles  said:

> 
> John Stumbles
> 
> What is a simile like?
> 
> 

Like a smile, as long as you keep an 'i' on it.

ger  wrote:

> If I saw a response like yours above I would reprimand the poster.

If I saw a response like yours I'd think "what a tedious little prick."

On Sun, 18 May 2008 11:52:25 +0100, ger wrote:

> I stand corrected and will try harder in future.

Great, but you *still* haven't told us what model it is!

-- 
John Stumbles

This sig intentionally left blank

On Sat, 17 May 2008 21:35:36 +0000, John Stumbles wrote:

> On Sat, 17 May 2008 21:10:22 +0100, ger wrote:
> 
>> BTW - it's a BAXI burner.
> 
> Yes you said that in the original post. I don't suppose you'd like to
> share with us which, of dozens of models of boiler Baxi have produced
> over the last half-century or so, it is?
> 
Quite. All we know is that it's not a back boiler unit  (BBU) in a fire 
place. It could be a BAXI combi even.






-- 
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk 
Gas fitting FAQ  http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html