Interesting article in today's 'Daily Telegraph' at 
<http://tinyurl.com/yunmwp>

Roy
-- 
Roy Bailey
West Berkshire.

"Roy Bailey"  wrote in message
news:MKL9PKAr9BRHFwfX@roy.bailey.waitrose.com
> Interesting article in today's 'Daily Telegraph' at
> <http://tinyurl.com/yunmwp>

The article states that "sales of "real ale" have actually grown by about 
seven per cent a year over since 1979".

I find that statistic utterly unbelievable - I suspect there is less real 
ale being sold now than at any time during the lifetime of CAMRA.

Yes, some thriving, characterful pubs still survive, but taking the pub 
trade as a whole the picture is bleak in the extreme.

-- 
http://pubcurmudgeon.blogspot.com
"If a river bridge were not guarded by a parapet, the slackness of the
defaulting authority deserves the blame, not the people who fall in" -
Lieut. Col. Mervyn O'Gorman.

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 18:08:40 -0000, "PeterE"
 wrote:

>
>Yes, some thriving, characterful pubs still survive, but taking the pub 
>trade as a whole the picture is bleak in the extreme.

Can't speak for the rest of the country, but in Yorkshire there are
more real ale pubs serving a wider range of beers than I have ever
experienced in 50 odd years.

They are thriving to an extent utterly unimaginable a few years ago.

Looking at the Good Beer guide, there appear to be more independent
brewers in the 2008 guide than in any other GBG since its inception.

'Bleak in the extreme'? My experience tells me quite the opposite.

<M Platting> wrote in message
news:59qgk3p9vgansj50k09ego5tbbi9gdhh6q@4ax.com
> On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 18:08:40 -0000, "PeterE"
>  wrote:
>
>> Yes, some thriving, characterful pubs still survive, but taking the pub
>> trade as a whole the picture is bleak in the extreme.
>
> Can't speak for the rest of the country, but in Yorkshire there are
> more real ale pubs serving a wider range of beers than I have ever
> experienced in 50 odd years.

In my area very large numbers of pubs have either stopped serving real ale 
or closed down entirely in the past 10 years. I would be utterly amazed if 
there were more pubs serving real ale in your part of Yorkshire than there 
were in 1957.

> They are thriving to an extent utterly unimaginable a few years ago.

In a small niche market maybe.

> Looking at the Good Beer guide, there appear to be more independent
> brewers in the 2008 guide than in any other GBG since its inception.

Most of which are short-lived operations brewing minuscule amounts of beer.

> 'Bleak in the extreme'? My experience tells me quite the opposite.

I am sure that the national figures for

(a) the total amount of cask beer produced, and
(b) the proportion of pubs serving cask beer

bear out my original statement.

Everywhere you go, you see buildings that obviously once were pubs, closed 
and boarded pubs, pubs turned into Indian restaurants etc.

-- 
http://pubcurmudgeon.blogspot.com
"If a river bridge were not guarded by a parapet, the slackness of the
defaulting authority deserves the blame, not the people who fall in" -
Lieut. Col. Mervyn O'Gorman.

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 18:22:30 -0000, "PeterE"
 wrote:


>In my area very large numbers of pubs have either stopped serving real ale 
>or closed down entirely in the past 10 years. I would be utterly amazed if 
>there were more pubs serving real ale in your part of Yorkshire than there 
>were in 1957.

1957 yes (although quality and variety were often questionable), but
go forward a few decades. The 60's 70's and to some degree even the
80's were characterised by an over abundance of keg and nitro-keg
beers, and a worrying decline in real ales. Thank goodness, CAMRA
contributed to a reversal of that seemingly terminal trend.
 

>In a small niche market maybe.

I must tell Tim Martin of Wetherspoons that he's operating in a 'small
niche market'. I think he would be amused.

>
>> Looking at the Good Beer guide, there appear to be more independent
>> brewers in the 2008 guide than in any other GBG since its inception.
>
>Most of which are short-lived operations brewing minuscule amounts of beer.

I'd like to know your definition of 'miniscule' . Yes, some are short
lived, but the new taxation regime has ensured that many more now
survive, than did, say, 10 years ago. And a lot (Ossett and Copper
Dragon, to name but two in my region) are doing incredibly well.
>

>I am sure that the national figures for
>
>(a) the total amount of cask beer produced, and
>(b) the proportion of pubs serving cask beer
>
>bear out my original statement.
>
Yes - statistics can prove almost anything, I'm afraid, and at the
same time tell us nothing useful . All I can do is say that, as a
dedicated real ale drinker, I now have more choice in West Yorkshire
than I have ever had in my 50 or so years of drinking beer. If the
same is not true in other parts of the country, then beer drinkers in
such parts need to look to their own commitment to the real ale cause.

Right! Now I'm off to the West Riding Licensed Refreshment Rooms in
Dewsbury where I can guarantee I'll sample at least a couple of real
ales I've never had before!

In article ,
   PeterE  wrote:
> In my area very large numbers of pubs have either stopped serving real
> ale or closed down entirely in the past 10 years. I would be utterly
> amazed if there were more pubs serving real ale in your part of
> Yorkshire than there were in 1957.

Oh come on now, that's too easy to pick holes with. Of course there were
more pubs serving real ale in 1957: keg beer was only available in a tiny
minority of pubs. You really need to go to Yorkshire to verify the OP's
statement. If it's different in your part of the world - you need to move!

Chris

-- 

Steve Pampling

"Steven Pampling"  wrote in message
news:4f46e8723esteve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com
> In article ,
>   PeterE  wrote:
>> In my area very large numbers of pubs have either stopped serving real
>> ale or closed down entirely in the past 10 years. I would be utterly
>> amazed if there were more pubs serving real ale in your part of
>> Yorkshire than there were in 1957.
>
> Oh come on now, that's too easy to pick holes with. Of course there were
> more pubs serving real ale in 1957: keg beer was only available in a tiny
> minority of pubs. You really need to go to Yorkshire to verify the OP's
> statement. If it's different in your part of the world - you need to move!

I think the propositions that over the past ten years

(a) the overall volume of cask beer brewed has declined
(b) a lower proportion of pubs serve cask beer, and
(c) large numbers of pubs have closed

are fairly self-evident. The fact that there is more choice of beer 
available to people who are willing to make the effort to seek it out does 
not detract from this at all.

For example, there is now no cask beer available in any pub on the A6 
between the centre of Stockport and the centre of Manchester. Ten years ago 
it could be found in maybe 10 of the 20-25 pubs along the road.

And CAMRA is constantly repeating the message that six pubs a week (or is it 
eight) are closing. They're not wrong, are they.

-- 
http://pubcurmudgeon.blogspot.com
"If a river bridge were not guarded by a parapet, the slackness of the
defaulting authority deserves the blame, not the people who fall in" -
Lieut. Col. Mervyn O'Gorman.

M Platting wrote:
> Can't speak for the rest of the country, but in Yorkshire there are
> more real ale pubs serving a wider range of beers than I have ever
> experienced in 50 odd years.

Must agree with this. Pubs in places such as Holmfirth, Huddersfield,
Hawes, Masham, York, Oxenhope, Haworth, Keighley, Askrigg, Dalton,
Richmond, and Thirsk, thru West Yorks and up through the Dales seem to 
have continued serving fine hand pulled real ales continuously over the 
past decade or more. Sure, they still sling gassy lagers and such for
the younger crowd, but the Real Ales are doing well.

My only concern is the growing absence of the darker, heavier ales.

nick

"PeterE"  wrote in message 
news:5qreu0F11gp7oU1@mid.individual.net...
> "Steven Pampling"  wrote in message
> news:4f46e8723esteve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com
>> In article ,
>>   PeterE  wrote:
>>> In my area very large numbers of pubs have either stopped serving real
>>> ale or closed down entirely in the past 10 years. I would be utterly
>>> amazed if there were more pubs serving real ale in your part of
>>> Yorkshire than there were in 1957.
>>
>> Oh come on now, that's too easy to pick holes with. Of course there were
>> more pubs serving real ale in 1957: keg beer was only available in a tiny
>> minority of pubs. You really need to go to Yorkshire to verify the OP's
>> statement. If it's different in your part of the world - you need to 
>> move!
>
> I think the propositions that over the past ten years
>
> (a) the overall volume of cask beer brewed has declined
> (b) a lower proportion of pubs serve cask beer, and
> (c) large numbers of pubs have closed
>
> are fairly self-evident. The fact that there is more choice of beer 
> available to people who are willing to make the effort to seek it out does 
> not detract from this at all.
>
> For example, there is now no cask beer available in any pub on the A6 
> between the centre of Stockport and the centre of Manchester. Ten years 
> ago it could be found in maybe 10 of the 20-25 pubs along the road.
>
> And CAMRA is constantly repeating the message that six pubs a week (or is 
> it eight) are closing. They're not wrong, are they.
>

I think you're trying a little too hard to prove your prediction that pubs 
are doomed because of the smoke ban. Ok (c) is true and taking into account 
the decline of the big brewers, (a) might be true but (b) is open to debate. 
I can only speak authoratively about my area, but here in Bury (not too far 
from your stomping ground), there are far more cask ale pubs now than 10 yrs 
ago. At that time people would travel into Mncr for their cask fix but now 
there's no need to. We've kept the pubs that always sold cask (Holts etc) 
but a lot of the keg pubs have actually gone back to cask (Thwaites for 
example) and we've even gained some new additions. A quick check of my 
records show that in one mile stretch of Ramsbottom, ten years ago, the pubs 
were mainly keg. Now that same stretch is 100% cask. 10 yrs ago there were 
18 hanpumps, now there are 43. Unfortunately not all serving different 
beers:) However, I think its pretty clear from that, that (b) is far from 
true.

"Alex"  wrote in message
news:fNSdnQilPpYIftTanZ2dnUVZ8saonZ2d@bt.com
>
> I think you're trying a little too hard to prove your prediction that pubs
> are doomed because of the smoke ban.

This isn't really directly connected to the smoking ban - although that 
undoubtedly is leading to widespread pub closures.

> Ok (c) is true and taking into
> account the decline of the big brewers, (a) might be true but (b) is open
> to debate. I can only speak authoratively about my area, but here in Bury
> (not too far from your stomping ground), there are far more cask ale pubs
> now than 10 yrs ago. At that time people would travel into Mncr for their
> cask fix but now there's no need to. We've kept the pubs that always sold
> cask (Holts etc) but a lot of the keg pubs have actually gone back to
> cask (Thwaites for example) and we've even gained some new additions. A
> quick check of my records show that in one mile stretch of Ramsbottom,
> ten years ago, the pubs were mainly keg. Now that same stretch is 100%
> cask. 10 yrs ago there were 18 hanpumps, now there are 43. Unfortunately
> not all serving different beers:) However, I think its pretty clear from
> that, that (b) is far from true.

But Ramsbottom is rapidly becoming middle class land. Head south to 
Whitefield and (apart from the closure of the Church) there are at least 
three premises on the main drag that obviously used to be pubs.

-- 
http://pubcurmudgeon.blogspot.com
"If a river bridge were not guarded by a parapet, the slackness of the
defaulting authority deserves the blame, not the people who fall in" -
Lieut. Col. Mervyn O'Gorman.

In message , PeterE 
 wrote
>"Alex"  wrote in message
>news:fNSdnQilPpYIftTanZ2dnUVZ8saonZ2d@bt.com
>>
>> I think you're trying a little too hard to prove your prediction that pubs
>> are doomed because of the smoke ban.
>
>This isn't really directly connected to the smoking ban - although that
>undoubtedly is leading to widespread pub closures.

Poor landlords, poor beer, poor food and poor maintenance are more 
likely to lead to pub closures rather than the smoking ban.

Often within a hundred  yards of a pub that has closed is another that 
has being doing much more trade and survives.

In some areas, as Greene King takes over more pubs fewer people want to 
drink in them :)



-- 
Alan
news2006 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com

In article ,
   PeterE  wrote:

> This isn't really directly connected to the smoking ban - although that 
> undoubtedly is leading to widespread pub closures.

The smoking ban is just an excuse for the pub owners (mostly big business)
to sell off pubs in prime development areas and cash in on the real estate
value.
If the properties were marked by the local councils as being anything that
precluded their redevelopment as housing the number of
closure-sale-demolition incidents would drop through the floor.

-- 

Steve Pampling

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 17:13:47 GMT, nick  wrote:

>My only concern is the growing absence of the darker, heavier ales.

I know it's only one pub, but if you like the darker styles, can I
suggest the Grove Inn in Huddersfield

The current / forthcoming beer list has quite a few of these beers,
and the prices are pretty good too. 

http://www.groveinn.co.uk/now.htm

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 12:07:07 +0000, Roy Bailey 
wrote:

>Interesting article in today's 'Daily Telegraph' at 
><http://tinyurl.com/yunmwp>
>
>Roy
One of the biggest threats to pubs is the mentality of some of the
large chains.They begin by charging a reasonable rent but force the
pub to buy all their drinks from them at an inflated , After 3 years
there is a rent review.price.If the new incumbents have made a go of
it and sold a lot of the pub company's beer their rents are hiked up
enormously, to the point where it's hardly worth continuing.
 The point is that some of the pub companies have no interest in
running good pubs, they are simply property managers.Experienced and
successful landlords have been forced out by their stupidity and
greed.By stupidity , look at one of my local pubs which was really
flourishing, six rotating real ales always available in cracking
condition and the pub was busy all day.The people running the pub
refused to accept the rent review and left.The lease had to be offered
at a low rent to attract new tenants and the pub has gone downhill to
the extent that it's hardly making any money.
Have you any shares in Scottish&Newcastle?

M Platting wrote:
> > I know it's only one pub, but if you like the darker styles, can I
> suggest the Grove Inn in Huddersfield

Oh yes, love The Grove Inn. Also in H'field I love the Rat and Ratchet,
which is not far from The Grove Inn. I especially love the R&R's Mild
Festivals. That area seems to have loads of really good pubs including
The Nook in H'firth and The Red Lion (??) in Jackson Bridge.

I believe my favorite place for lunch is the Black Sheep brewery
in Masham. Wonderful carvery (yum --- roast lamb!) and well-kept
Riggwelter, which is probably my favorite ale.

I can see I must come over again this Spring as I am drooling
here at the PC.

nick

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 16:38:56 +0000, valeofbelvoirdrinker wrote
(in article ):

> On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 12:07:07 +0000, Roy Bailey 
> wrote:
> 
>> Interesting article in today's 'Daily Telegraph' at 
>> <http://tinyurl.com/yunmwp>
>> 
>> Roy
> One of the biggest threats to pubs is the mentality of some of the
> large chains.They begin by charging a reasonable rent but force the
> pub to buy all their drinks from them at an inflated , After 3 years
> there is a rent review.price.If the new incumbents have made a go of
> it and sold a lot of the pub company's beer their rents are hiked up
> enormously, to the point where it's hardly worth continuing.
>  The point is that some of the pub companies have no interest in
> running good pubs, they are simply property managers.Experienced and
> successful landlords have been forced out by their stupidity and
> greed.By stupidity , look at one of my local pubs which was really
> flourishing, six rotating real ales always available in cracking
> condition and the pub was busy all day.The people running the pub
> refused to accept the rent review and left.The lease had to be offered
> at a low rent to attract new tenants and the pub has gone downhill to
> the extent that it's hardly making any money.
> Have you any shares in Scottish&Newcastle?

...and CAMRA explicitly supports the "tie" system that allows this to 
continue.

"nick"  wrote in message 
news:RvE2j.31450$9h.6620@trnddc07...
>M Platting wrote:
>> > I know it's only one pub, but if you like the darker styles, can I
>> suggest the Grove Inn in Huddersfield
>
> Oh yes, love The Grove Inn. Also in H'field I love the Rat and Ratchet,
> which is not far from The Grove Inn. I especially love the R&R's Mild
> Festivals. That area seems to have loads of really good pubs including
> The Nook in H'firth and The Red Lion (??) in Jackson Bridge.
>
> I believe my favorite place for lunch is the Black Sheep brewery
> in Masham. Wonderful carvery (yum --- roast lamb!) and well-kept
> Riggwelter, which is probably my favorite ale.
>
Don't forget that Riggwelter is almost always on at the West Riding, in 
Dewsbury railway station ( www.imissedthetrain.com ).

Half a mile from there is the Shepherd's Boy, whose 8 ales always include 
something dark.

Also, by Mirfield railway station is the Navigation, where well-kept 
Theakston Best Bitter, XB, Black Bull Bitter (or sometimes mild) and Old 
Peculier are all priced at £2.10!

All three are Good Beer Guide listed.

Cheers,

Paul

Paul wrote:

> Don't forget that Riggwelter is almost always on at the West Riding, in 
> Dewsbury railway station ( www.imissedthetrain.com ).

Is Dewsbury anywhere near the Coal Mining museum??  (We went there
for a "break" from the Rat and Ratchet Mild Festival last year.)

I seem to be fighting with various online mapping systems at the
moment, but I'll betcha we went right by the Dewsbury train station.

Looks like about 15 miles from Holmfirth (where we like to stay
a few nights) and not far from Huddersfield. Izzat it??

nick

"nick"  wrote in message 
news:9VF2j.30019$Xg.23102@trnddc06...
> Paul wrote:
>
>> Don't forget that Riggwelter is almost always on at the West Riding, in 
>> Dewsbury railway station ( www.imissedthetrain.com ).
>
> Is Dewsbury anywhere near the Coal Mining museum??  (We went there
> for a "break" from the Rat and Ratchet Mild Festival last year.)
>
> I seem to be fighting with various online mapping systems at the
> moment, but I'll betcha we went right by the Dewsbury train station.
>
> Looks like about 15 miles from Holmfirth (where we like to stay
> a few nights) and not far from Huddersfield. Izzat it??
>
> nick

It's about 5 miles from the mining museum and 8 miles from Huddersield.

WF4 4RH is the postcode of the museum, the pub is WF13 1HF. Multimap will 
show you where they are.

BTW, the West Riding has another pump designated for dark beers in addition 
to Black Sheep Riggwelter (at £2.30) and Taylor's Dark Mild (£1.80). This 
week's "Pump Two" beers are Greenfield Black Five, Hornbeam Dark Domination, 
Roosters Oyster Stout and Copper Dragon Black Gold.

Cheers,

Paul

In article ,
   valeofbelvoirdrinker  wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 12:07:07 +0000, Roy Bailey 
> wrote:

> >Interesting article in today's 'Daily Telegraph' at
> ><http://tinyurl.com/yunmwp>
> >
> >Roy
> One of the biggest threats to pubs is the mentality of some of the
> large chains.They begin by charging a reasonable rent but force the
> pub to buy all their drinks from them at an inflated , After 3
> years there is a rent review.price.If the new incumbents have made
> a go of it and sold a lot of the pub company's beer their rents are
> hiked up enormously, to the point where it's hardly worth
> continuing. The point is that some of the pub companies have no
> interest in running good pubs, they are simply property
> managers.Experienced and successful landlords have been forced out
> by their stupidity and greed.By stupidity , look at one of my local
> pubs which was really flourishing, six rotating real ales always
> available in cracking condition and the pub was busy all day.The
> people running the pub refused to accept the rent review and
> left.The lease had to be offered at a low rent to attract new
> tenants and the pub has gone downhill to the extent that it's
> hardly making any money. Have you any shares in Scottish&Newcastle?

I could have written that, word for word, including the last question

:o((

-- 
Chris de Cordova (West Cumbria & Western Lakes) www.westcumbriacamra.org.uk
Whitehaven Beer Festival: 16th & 17th Nov 2007 (www.whitehavenbeerfestival.co.uk)

What happens if you get scared half to death twice?