On Oct 26, 8:05 am, "Ophelia"  wrote:
> "Jane Gillett"  wrote in message
>
> news:50afc8c668j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk...
>
> > Being over 60, I am among the group with some residual resistance so that
> > puts me lower down the list to be vaccinated. OTOH, being diabetic puts me
> > up the list for most things so I dunno whether I'll be amongst the early
> > ones. If I'm "called", I'll have it but I shall not worry if I'm not.
>
> Does anyone have any qualms about receiving this vaccine?

Yes.
This news report makes for interesting viewing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4SmFxyust0

On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:03:15 -0700 (PDT), CP 
wrote:


>With regard to the swine flu epidemic, whether it is engineered or
>'real', the fact remains that the vaccine has been rushed through,
>with little or no thought for longterm consequences. 

It was produced with the same procedures as the annual flu vaccine is produced.
What real evidence have you to support your claim?

>Those who are not
>in high risk categories should think really long and hard before
>succumbing to what will inevitably be tremendous institutional
>pressure to get vaccinated. In my opinion, 

In your opinion as a medical expert?

>they would be better off
>taking large daily doses of Vitamin D - the one thing which most of us
>at certain latitudes lack, and the absence of which is always
>conducive to the development of colds and flu in the winter months.

Most of us on a normal diet need neither vitamin supplements nor quack medicine.
-- 

Martin

"CP"  wrote in message 
news:186e3c87-8f3e-4c76-8b49-b61b3d5ea142@h40g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 27, 9:44 pm, Martin <m...@address.invalid> wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:03:15 -0700 (PDT), CP 
> wrote:
>
> >With regard to the swine flu epidemic, whether it is engineered or
> >'real', the fact remains that the vaccine has been rushed through,
> >with little or no thought for longterm consequences.
>
> It was produced with the same procedures as the annual flu vaccine is 
> produced.
> What real evidence have you to support your claim?
>
> >Those who are not
> >in high risk categories should think really long and hard before
> >succumbing to what will inevitably be tremendous institutional
> >pressure to get vaccinated. In my opinion,
>
> In your opinion as a medical expert?

Here are the opinions of a number of medical experts. And when I say
experts, I'm not talking about the type of practitioners you call
'quacks':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1K74Tnrrok
________________________________________________

Same old conspiracy theories and scare tactics about Hg &Al in the vaccines 
causing, inter alia, autism.  Note that Andrew Wakefield was one of the 
speakers and he has been thoroughly discredited.  Some of those in this 
video are NOT medical experts and one of the physicians ought to have her 
arse kicked for some of what she said.

On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:03:43 -0700 (PDT), CP wrote in post :
<news:8eeb8bc4-1e2b-40af-b46d-e65a2feeba91@i4g2000prm.googlegroups.com> :

>> It was produced with the same procedures as the annual flu vaccine is produced.
>> What real evidence have you to support your claim?
> 
> There is plenty of evidence to show that the longterm consequences of
> the vaccine are unknown. Surely the speed at which it has appeared
> should tell us this much, at least!

Just how long does it take to develop the usual annual 'flu vaccines? 

-- 
Tim C.

On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:10:06 -0600, "graham"  wrote:

>
>"CP"  wrote in message 
>news:186e3c87-8f3e-4c76-8b49-b61b3d5ea142@h40g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>On Oct 27, 9:44 pm, Martin <m...@address.invalid> wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:03:15 -0700 (PDT), CP 
>> wrote:
>>
>> >With regard to the swine flu epidemic, whether it is engineered or
>> >'real', the fact remains that the vaccine has been rushed through,
>> >with little or no thought for longterm consequences.
>>
>> It was produced with the same procedures as the annual flu vaccine is 
>> produced.
>> What real evidence have you to support your claim?
>>
>> >Those who are not
>> >in high risk categories should think really long and hard before
>> >succumbing to what will inevitably be tremendous institutional
>> >pressure to get vaccinated. In my opinion,
>>
>> In your opinion as a medical expert?
>
>Here are the opinions of a number of medical experts. And when I say
>experts, I'm not talking about the type of practitioners you call
>'quacks':
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1K74Tnrrok
>________________________________________________
>
>Same old conspiracy theories and scare tactics about Hg &Al in the vaccines 
>causing, inter alia, autism.  Note that Andrew Wakefield was one of the 
>speakers and he has been thoroughly discredited.  Some of those in this 
>video are NOT medical experts and one of the physicians ought to have her 
>arse kicked for some of what she said. 
>

Yeah but real doctors only treat the symptoms. An odd thing to say when
discussing vaccination.
-- 

Martin

On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 08:28:35 +0100, "Tim C."  wrote:

>On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:03:43 -0700 (PDT), CP wrote in post :
><news:8eeb8bc4-1e2b-40af-b46d-e65a2feeba91@i4g2000prm.googlegroups.com> :
>
>>> It was produced with the same procedures as the annual flu vaccine is produced.
>>> What real evidence have you to support your claim?
>> 
>> There is plenty of evidence to show that the longterm consequences of
>> the vaccine are unknown. 

Can't argue with that. When are we likely to know?

>>Surely the speed at which it has appeared
>> should tell us this much, at least!
>
>Just how long does it take to develop the usual annual 'flu vaccines? 

This years dose was scheduled for 1939.

Martin who once worked on "1940 edition of the Naval Handbook of " in 1962.
-- 

Martin

Martin <me@address.invalid> wrote in
news:i6qee5l9hpd5f9fq8vupaojgt7jel941vg@4ax.com: 

> Most of us on a normal diet need neither vitamin supplements nor quack
> medicine. 
> 

Unfortunately most people are not on a "normal diet", which kind of re-
defines "normal".  The medical profession has been saying that supplements 
are not necessary for years if we have a "healthy balanced diet".

Dunno about anyone else here, but I'm unlikely to eat 5 portions of fruit 
and veg per day.  I don't eat (much) meat and like many people, I eat far 
too much wheat.  Does my health suffer?  Probably.

-- 
Adrian

Remove packaging and take out insurance before emailing me

June Hughes  wrote in
news:w4pybMB1v+5KFweA@theacct.demon.co.uk: 

> In message <l5LFm.293691$cf6.45479@newsfe16.iad>, graham 
>  writes
>>
>>"CP"  wrote in message
>>news:186e3c87-8f3e-4c76-8b49-b61b3d5ea142
@h40g2000prf.googlegroups.com.
>>.. On Oct 27, 9:44 pm, Martin <m...@address.invalid> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:03:15 -0700 (PDT), CP
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> >With regard to the swine flu epidemic, whether it is engineered or
>>> >'real', the fact remains that the vaccine has been rushed through,
>>> >with little or no thought for longterm consequences.
>>>
>>> It was produced with the same procedures as the annual flu vaccine
>>> is produced.
>>> What real evidence have you to support your claim?
>>>
>>> >Those who are not
>>> >in high risk categories should think really long and hard before
>>> >succumbing to what will inevitably be tremendous institutional
>>> >pressure to get vaccinated. In my opinion,
>>>
>>> In your opinion as a medical expert?
>>
>>Here are the opinions of a number of medical experts. And when I say
>>experts, I'm not talking about the type of practitioners you call
>>'quacks':
>>
>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1K74Tnrrok
>>________________________________________________
>>
>>Same old conspiracy theories and scare tactics about Hg &Al in the
>>vaccines causing, inter alia, autism.  Note that Andrew Wakefield was
>>one of the speakers and he has been thoroughly discredited.  Some of
>>those in this video are NOT medical experts and one of the physicians
>>ought to have her arse kicked for some of what she said.
>>
>>
> Yes Graham, but CP knows best.  Who are we to argue?

I thought he was putting his research across in a civilised way.  
Although I don't agree with much of it.

-- 
Adrian

Remove packaging and take out insurance before emailing me

On 28 Oct 2009 09:26:33 GMT, Adrian Tupper wrote in post :
<news:Xns9CB26014A982Dniceguyonzetnet@194.247.47.119> :

> June Hughes  wrote in
> news:w4pybMB1v+5KFweA@theacct.demon.co.uk: 
> 
>> In message <l5LFm.293691$cf6.45479@newsfe16.iad>, graham 
>>  writes
>>>
>>>"CP"  wrote in message
>>>news:186e3c87-8f3e-4c76-8b49-b61b3d5ea142
> @h40g2000prf.googlegroups.com.
>>>.. On Oct 27, 9:44 pm, Martin <m...@address.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:03:15 -0700 (PDT), CP
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >With regard to the swine flu epidemic, whether it is engineered or
>>>> >'real', the fact remains that the vaccine has been rushed through,
>>>> >with little or no thought for longterm consequences.
>>>>
>>>> It was produced with the same procedures as the annual flu vaccine
>>>> is produced.
>>>> What real evidence have you to support your claim?
>>>>
>>>> >Those who are not
>>>> >in high risk categories should think really long and hard before
>>>> >succumbing to what will inevitably be tremendous institutional
>>>> >pressure to get vaccinated. In my opinion,
>>>>
>>>> In your opinion as a medical expert?
>>>
>>>Here are the opinions of a number of medical experts. And when I say
>>>experts, I'm not talking about the type of practitioners you call
>>>'quacks':
>>>
>>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1K74Tnrrok
>>>________________________________________________
>>>
>>>Same old conspiracy theories and scare tactics about Hg &Al in the
>>>vaccines causing, inter alia, autism.  Note that Andrew Wakefield was
>>>one of the speakers and he has been thoroughly discredited.  Some of
>>>those in this video are NOT medical experts and one of the physicians
>>>ought to have her arse kicked for some of what she said.
>>>
>>>
>> Yes Graham, but CP knows best.  Who are we to argue?
> 
> I thought he was putting his research across in a civilised way.  
> Although I don't agree with much of it.

I agree. It's very difficult to filter out what is significant and what is
scaremongering, and although this particular vaccine is an unknown, so are
all the normal annual flu vaccines that people take without batting an
eyelid. This is made the same way. Why should it be any more "risky" than
those others?
Of course there are some side effects with this vaccine, but no-one I can
find actually compares them to other flu vaccines.  Are there really any
more or serious effects? The anti-jabbers are quick to pick on the
components and blow up their effects out of context. 

However, the virus at the moment seems to have turned out to be pretty
harmless compared to many normal flu strains. At the moment. The fact that
it's "out of season" leaves time for it to mutate to fit humans better and
with the real flu season about to happen there is a reasonable chance that
it will re-emerge (or hopefully fizzle out) slightly mutated, as other flu
strains do every year. It's this second wave that poses potentially more
risks - as will be better tailored to the human body - the more people that
are vaccinated now will help keep the strain down perhaps preventing a more
serious flare-up later, as this vaccine will probably give some protection
to any new version that appears. getting the jab now will alleviate the
bottleneck of getting it if and when the crisis comes.

Lots of ifs and probablys I know, but the while thing is risk assessment.
No-one knows what will happen, we can only make educated guesses. Surely a
small chance of side effect such as slight flu symptoms or a sore jab-wound
are a small price to pay for the potentially thousands of deaths that might
happen?

-- 
Tim C.

On 28 Oct 2009 09:23:58 GMT, Adrian Tupper wrote in post :
<news:Xns9CB25FA4CD410niceguyonzetnet@194.247.47.119> :

> The medical profession has been saying that supplements 
> are not necessary for years if we have a "healthy balanced diet".

And they are right, regardless of whether millions of punters believe
otherwise and still buy them. 
Eat shit: 100 billion flies can't be wrong. :-)

I bet you still get enough of everything you need though in roughly the
right proportions. 

-- 
Tim C.

Adrian Tupper  wrote:
> Dunno about anyone else here, but I'm unlikely to eat 5 portions of fruit 
> and veg per day.  

Really?  I find there are very few days when I don't, even if I am not
putting any effort at all into doing so.  (And remembering that fruit
juice, no matter how much you drink, only counts as 1, which I think is
a bit mean cos I drink a few different ones!  :-)

On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 11:18:19 +0100, "Tim C."  wrote:

>On 28 Oct 2009 09:23:58 GMT, Adrian Tupper wrote in post :
><news:Xns9CB25FA4CD410niceguyonzetnet@194.247.47.119> :
>
>> The medical profession has been saying that supplements 
>> are not necessary for years if we have a "healthy balanced diet".
>
>And they are right, regardless of whether millions of punters believe
>otherwise and still buy them. 
>Eat shit: 100 billion flies can't be wrong. :-)

Not to mention all those mushrooms and dung beetles.

>
>I bet you still get enough of everything you need though in roughly the
>right proportions. 

No signs of the average British punter dropping dead with malnutrition although
I read that rickets are making a come back amongst the poor.
-- 

Martin

On 28 Oct 2009 10:31:50 GMT,  wrote:

>Adrian Tupper  wrote:
>> Dunno about anyone else here, but I'm unlikely to eat 5 portions of fruit 
>> and veg per day.  
>
>Really?  I find there are very few days when I don't, even if I am not
>putting any effort at all into doing so.  (And remembering that fruit
>juice, no matter how much you drink, only counts as 1, which I think is
>a bit mean cos I drink a few different ones!  :-)

You need to run around naked in the sun to top up your vitamin D levels.
-- 

Martin

"Martin"  ha scritto nel messaggio

> You need to run around naked in the sun to top up your vitamin D levels.

My daughter was treated 2 years ago for severe vitamin D insufficiency.  She 
is extremely fair, so her dermatologist had her wear sunblock 24/7 year 
round.  The endocrinologist said to leave hands un treated at least. 
Vitamin D is fat soluble and these low fat diets cause problems as well. 
The biggest thing, according to him, is that at out lattitudes there simply 
is not enough sun in winter to get adequate vitamin D.  That in spite of the 
fact that milk in the USA is enhanced with vitamin D.  It isn't here, but 
even though this is a fairly sunny country in winter, unlike Netherlands I 
hear, the days are just too short.  You can get some from cheese, but how 
much cheese can anyone eat?  Other than Enzo.

On Oct 28, 9:16 am, Martin <m...@address.invalid> wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:10:06 -0600, "graham"  wrote:
>
> >"CP"  wrote in message
> >news:186e3c87-8f3e-4c76-8b49-b61b3d5ea142@h40g2000prf.googlegroups.com..> >On Oct 27, 9:44 pm, Martin <m...@address.invalid> wrote:
> >> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:03:15 -0700 (PDT), CP 
> >> wrote:
>
> >> >With regard to the swine flu epidemic, whether it is engineered or
> >> >'real', the fact remains that the vaccine has been rushed through,
> >> >with little or no thought for longterm consequences.
>
> >> It was produced with the same procedures as the annual flu vaccine is
> >> produced.
> >> What real evidence have you to support your claim?
>
> >> >Those who are not
> >> >in high risk categories should think really long and hard before
> >> >succumbing to what will inevitably be tremendous institutional
> >> >pressure to get vaccinated. In my opinion,
>
> >> In your opinion as a medical expert?
>
> >Here are the opinions of a number of medical experts. And when I say
> >experts, I'm not talking about the type of practitioners you call
> >'quacks':
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1K74Tnrrok
> >________________________________________________
>
> >Same old conspiracy theories and scare tactics about Hg &Al in the vaccines
> >causing, inter alia, autism.  Note that Andrew Wakefield was one of the
> >speakers and he has been thoroughly discredited.  Some of those in this
> >video are NOT medical experts and one of the physicians ought to have her
> >arse kicked for some of what she said.
>
> Yeah but real doctors only treat the symptoms. An odd thing to say when
> discussing vaccination.

Allopathic doctors treat the symptoms; anyone knows that. Which is
fine when it comes to vaccination, maybe, but not as a general rule of
thumb.

The message 
from Adrian Tupper 
contains these words:

> Martin <me@address.invalid> wrote in
> news:i6qee5l9hpd5f9fq8vupaojgt7jel941vg@4ax.com: 

> > Most of us on a normal diet need neither vitamin supplements nor quack
> > medicine. 
> > 

> Unfortunately most people are not on a "normal diet", which kind of re-
> defines "normal".  The medical profession has been saying that supplements 
> are not necessary for years if we have a "healthy balanced diet".

> Dunno about anyone else here, but I'm unlikely to eat 5 portions of fruit 
> and veg per day. 

    :-)  I'd consider it rather an unusual day if  we only ate five .
. We're not vegetarians but we both love fruit and veg.

   Janet.

The message <kjprlq2uzd7b$.18uhq7c2xjr7k$.dlg@40tude.net>
from "Tim C."  contains these words:


> I agree. It's very difficult to filter out what is significant and what is
> scaremongering, and although this particular vaccine is an unknown, so are
> all the normal annual flu vaccines that people take without batting an
> eyelid. 

  Lots of people  choose not to have the annual /seasonal flu jab (for a
whole variety of reasons). So 
 reluctance to be vaccinated against  swineflu is  not unusual at all.

    Janet

The message 
from Martin <me@address.invalid> contains these words:

> No signs of the average British punter dropping dead with malnutrition
> although

   However, there is clear evidence that malnutrition still exists; its
been noticed in a surprisingly high proportion of hospital admissions .

> I read that rickets are making a come back amongst the poor.

   AIUI, that is among dark-skinned people in northern Britain. Lack of
sunlight exposure reduces Vit D  absorbtion.

   Janet

wrote in
news:7kqksmF3aqht7U2@mid.individual.net: 

> Adrian Tupper  wrote:
>> Dunno about anyone else here, but I'm unlikely to eat 5 portions of
>> fruit and veg per day.  
> 
> Really?  I find there are very few days when I don't, even if I am not
> putting any effort at all into doing so.  (And remembering that fruit
> juice, no matter how much you drink, only counts as 1, which I think
> is a bit mean cos I drink a few different ones!  :-)

I maybe get 3 or 4 dates in my breakfast muesli.  Hardly even one portion.
Lunch might be soup or it might be a roll so one perhaps two portions 
there.
Tea could be anything but perhaps only two portions I would guess.  So a 
max of 5, typically around 3.

And there are plenty of other ways a portion isn't a portion, not just 
fruit juice :-(

-- 
Adrian

Remove packaging and take out insurance before emailing me

Following up to Tim C. 

>  if we have a "healthy balanced diet".
> 
> And they are right, regardless of whether millions of punters believe
> otherwise and still buy them.

we go for Vit C on the advice of a nobel prize winner and the fact alcohol
isnt part of that "healthy balanced diet"
-- 
Mike... .  .   .    .  
Spanish food "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk/espania.htm"
remove clothing to email

Following up to vicky@dinky.vm.bytemark.co.uk 

> (And remembering that fruit
> juice, no matter how much you drink, only counts as 1, which I think is
> a bit mean

and a bit nonsense, chips, tobacco tea and coffee are all vegetables!
-- 
Mike... .  .   .    .  
Spanish food "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk/espania.htm"
remove clothing to email

"Mike.. .  ."  wrote in 
news:tvpwd6ixltm3.1jyzs9iya43ye$.dlg@40tude.net:

> Following up to vicky@dinky.vm.bytemark.co.uk 
> 
>> (And remembering that fruit
>> juice, no matter how much you drink, only counts as 1, which I think is
>> a bit mean
> 
> and a bit nonsense, chips, tobacco tea and coffee are all vegetables!

You eat tobacco?

-- 
Adrian

Remove packaging and take out insurance before emailing me

Mike.. . . wrote:
> Following up to Tim C. 
> 
>>  if we have a "healthy balanced diet".
>>
>> And they are right, regardless of whether millions of punters believe
>> otherwise and still buy them.
> 
> we go for Vit C on the advice of a nobel prize winner and the fact alcohol
> isnt part of that "healthy balanced diet"

My real ale landlord tells me that my lunch time is one of my 5 a day.

Dave

"Mike.. . ."  wrote in message 
news:1w3w6kavbljbb.119hwbxrmrk2g.dlg@40tude.net...
> Following up to Tim C.
>
>>  if we have a "healthy balanced diet".
>>
>> And they are right, regardless of whether millions of punters believe
>> otherwise and still buy them.
>
> we go for Vit C on the advice of a nobel prize winner and the fact alcohol
> isnt part of that "healthy balanced diet"
> -- 

I think of it as a complex carbohydrate{:-)
Graham

On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 17:07:54 +0000, June Hughes wrote in post :
<news:tz9FZhIqpH6KFwVU@theacct.demon.co.uk> :

>> If I know best, I know best for myself:
> 
> That's why I said it.  I wasn't meaning to be rude or derogatory.

That's not what it sounded like to me.  :-(
-- 
Tim C.

On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 16:16:55 GMT, Janet Baraclough wrote in post :
<news:31303030393032394AE86E7795@zetnet.co.uk> :

> The message <kjprlq2uzd7b$.18uhq7c2xjr7k$.dlg@40tude.net>
> from "Tim C."  contains these words:
> 
>> I agree. It's very difficult to filter out what is significant and what is
>> scaremongering, and although this particular vaccine is an unknown, so are
>> all the normal annual flu vaccines that people take without batting an
>> eyelid. 
> 
>   Lots of people  choose not to have the annual /seasonal flu jab (for a
> whole variety of reasons). So 
>  reluctance to be vaccinated against  swineflu is  not unusual at all.
> 
>     Janet
>

But many do. The point I was trying to make is why is there so much more
controversy over this one as compared to the others? 

-- 
Tim C.

On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 23:23:04 +0000, Dave wrote in post :
<news:cLSdnc4FEs_ET3XXnZ2dnUVZ8sti4p2d@bt.com> :

> Mike.. . . wrote:
>> Following up to Tim C. 
>> 
>>>  if we have a "healthy balanced diet".
>>>
>>> And they are right, regardless of whether millions of punters believe
>>> otherwise and still buy them.
>> 
>> we go for Vit C on the advice of a nobel prize winner and the fact alcohol
>> isnt part of that "healthy balanced diet"
> 
> My real ale landlord tells me that my lunch time is one of my 5 a day.
> 
> Dave

Bavarians call it "liquid bread". 
-- 
Tim C.

Following up to Dave 

> My real ale landlord tells me that my lunch time is one of my 5 a day.

of course it is. Did you notice the scientists just rubbished the cannabis
/ schizophrenia scare? Drug risk escalation is like exam result escalation!
-- 
Mike... .  .   .    .  
Spanish food "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk/espania.htm"
remove clothing to email

Following up to Adrian Tupper 

>> and a bit nonsense, chips, tobacco tea and coffee are all vegetables!
> 
> You eat tobacco?

well, that would be silly wouldnt it, compared to setting fire to it and
putting it in your mouth.
-- 
Mike... .  .   .    .  
Spanish food "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk/espania.htm"
remove clothing to email

In article ,
   Janet Baraclough  wrote:
> The message 
> from Martin <me@address.invalid> contains these words:

> > No signs of the average British punter dropping dead with malnutrition
> > although

>    However, there is clear evidence that malnutrition still exists; its
> been noticed in a surprisingly high proportion of hospital admissions .

> > I read that rickets are making a come back amongst the poor.

>    AIUI, that is among dark-skinned people in northern Britain. Lack of
> sunlight exposure reduces Vit D  absorbtion.

It doesn't help if they are vegetarian/vegan by religion or habit. I worked
with an indian woman whose family was kicked out of Uganda by Idi Amin. Her
brother, a doctor, made the family start eating meat to replace what they
lost by loss of sunlight.

Jane

>    Janet

-- 

Jane Gillett   :   j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk   :   Totnes, Devon.

On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 07:39:19 +0000 (GMT), Jane Gillett
 wrote:

>In article ,
>   Giusi  wrote:
>
>> "CP"  ha scritto nel messaggio
>
>
>> http://www.profitableharm.com/Swine%20Flu%20Paper%20Janak.html
>
>> That reads from word one as crackpot.  Bibliography?  Factual backup. 
>> Quotation marks are not enough proof.
>
>> What evidence shows that H1N1 is a product of biowarfare engineering?  Where 
>> would they come by such evidence?  If it's true then we really DO need to 
>> stop it.
>> Why would it be in the interests of countries strapped for cash by huge 
>> financial crisis to invent a health crisis that they have to step up to 
>> fight?  Is it just pure mean-minded cruelty practiced on the population for 
>> fun?
>> So they tell me that death rates are not higher than rates for seasonal 
>> flus, exceot that IT IS NOT YET FLU SEASON and we already have experienced a 
>> normal deathrate from this flu.
>
>No idea whether H1N1 is germ warfare - why should it be?
>
>However, on the topic of flu, I've just been listening to a GP on Radio
>Devon complaining that with winter approaching, swine flu, vomiting
>infections and the normal higher winter hospital use a local hospital has
>just taken 7 beds out of use for a few months. For "deep cleaning". As
>somebody said, would deep cleaning be needed if the "normal cleaning" had
>been adequate and why do it at time of peak calls for beds? We've had the
>CHief Exec (I think) (non-medic) on the radio; I was unconvinced.

In our local Dutch hospital all beds are "deep" cleaned after each patient uses
them. Obviously you need enough spare beds to cope with this.
-- 

Martin

On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 09:43:34 +0000, Sacha  wrote:

>On 2009-10-29 07:39:19 +0000, Jane Gillett  said:
>
>> In article ,
>>    Giusi  wrote:
>> 
>>> "CP"  ha scritto nel messaggio
>> 
>> 
>>> http://www.profitableharm.com/Swine%20Flu%20Paper%20Janak.html
>> 
>>> That reads from word one as crackpot.  Bibliography?  Factual backup.
>>> Quotation marks are not enough proof.
>> 
>>> What evidence shows that H1N1 is a product of biowarfare engineering?  Where
>>> would they come by such evidence?  If it's true then we really DO need to
>>> stop it.
>>> Why would it be in the interests of countries strapped for cash by huge
>>> financial crisis to invent a health crisis that they have to step up to
>>> fight?  Is it just pure mean-minded cruelty practiced on the population for
>>> fun?
>>> So they tell me that death rates are not higher than rates for seasonal
>>> flus, exceot that IT IS NOT YET FLU SEASON and we already have experienced a
>>> normal deathrate from this flu.
>> 
>> No idea whether H1N1 is germ warfare - why should it be?
>> 
>> However, on the topic of flu, I've just been listening to a GP on Radio
>> Devon complaining that with winter approaching, swine flu, vomiting
>> infections and the normal higher winter hospital use a local hospital has
>> just taken 7 beds out of use for a few months. For "deep cleaning". As
>> somebody said, would deep cleaning be needed if the "normal cleaning" had
>> been adequate and why do it at time of peak calls for beds? We've had the
>> CHief Exec (I think) (non-medic) on the radio; I was unconvinced.
>> 
>> Cheers
>> Jane
>
>If it's any sort of comfort, Jane, one member of the family is ill and 
>is going to have a visit at home today from our GP. They don't live 
>here but a few minutes away.  But he says that swine flu cases are 
>comparatively small in number down here *at the moment*.  However, this 
>person has just been in London and has visited museums and galleries, 
>so he's going for the cautious approach.

One reason the number of cases reported in NL suddenly increased is that in
August the number of cases were so low that the reporting of cases was no longer
obligatory.
-- 

Martin

On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 11:10:57 +0100, "Tim C."  wrote:

>On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 07:39:19 +0000 (GMT), Jane Gillett wrote in post :
><news:50b1b9038ej.gillett@higherstert.co.uk> :
>
>> No idea whether H1N1 is germ warfare - why should it be?
>
>It's a plot by the pharmatocracy to increase profits. 

The Dutch government advisor who advised spending €220 million buying more doses
than they know what to do with by "pure coincidence" owns 10% of the company
that produced the doses for NL.
-- 

Martin

On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 03:40:47 -0700 (PDT), CP 
wrote:

>On Oct 29, 10:10 am, "Tim C."  wrote:
>> On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 07:39:19 +0000 (GMT), Jane Gillett wrote in post :
>> <news:50b1b9038ej.gillett@higherstert.co.uk> :
>>
>> > No idea whether H1N1 is germ warfare - why should it be?
>>
>> It's a plot by the pharmatocracy to increase profits.
>>
>> If it is it's very poorly thought out and full of faults. So I suppose it
>> must be germ warfare, as we know that the moon landings were faked and that
>> the WTC/pentagon attacks were US government conspiracies.  :-)  
>
>Don't know about the moon landings - and don't much care - but am
>pretty sure that the WTC/Pentagon attacks weren't carried out by 19
>incompetent Saudis, masterminded by a man on a dialysis machine in a
>cave near Kabul!

At least you are consistent.
-- 

Martin

On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 08:19:24 +0000, June Hughes wrote in post :
<news:mDEHFrCMAV6KFwW+@theacct.demon.co.uk> :

> I have already admitted that it came out the wrong way.  What do you 
> want?  I certainly don't intend to grovel for ever.

Oh no, a couple of weeks will do fine.  :)
-- 
Tim C.

Adrian Tupper  wrote:
> I maybe get 3 or 4 dates in my breakfast muesli.  Hardly even one portion.
> Lunch might be soup or it might be a roll so one perhaps two portions 
> there.
> Tea could be anything but perhaps only two portions I would guess.  So a 
> max of 5, typically around 3.

It possibly helps that the kids + I are vegetarian, and I tend to have
lots of random veg (either picked or from Abel+Cole box) that always
need using up, soI throw random veg into almost everything - pasta,
rice, omlettes, risotto, etc.  Last night I made veggie paella which I
think had all 5 servings in it (at least, in the whole pan, of which I
ate about half)
And for lunch yesterday I ate fresh picked raspberries adn strawberries
(although i think tht's the last of my raspberries for the year, at
 least the red ones - the yellow are still going) and during the day I
munched through 2 plums a satsuma and about 25 cherry tomatoes.  Plus I
drank fruit juice all day.

> And there are plenty of other ways a portion isn't a portion, not just 
> fruit juice :-(

True.

Following up to Adrian Tupper 

> Tea could be anything but perhaps only two portions I would guess.  So a 
> max of 5, typically around 3.

I reckon I get 3 max too.

Brunch, usually a sarnie, thats zero. Maybe an apple or banana with it so
might be 1

Dinner, will probably have one or two veg ingredients, never 5!

I don't see why it matters? My artichoke and broad bean stew would be a
score 2 day (or do the onions count?). I rarely eat the trad meat with
little piles of veg type meal, where I suppose you could get it up to 5?

Shepherds pie including peas, beans and toms (3) would be better than my
artichoke stew? (2) I doubt it.
-- 
Mike... .  .   .    .  
Spanish food "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk/espania.htm"
remove clothing to email

Following up to vicky@dinky.vm.bytemark.co.uk 

> Plus I
> drank fruit juice all day.

isnt that a lot of sugar?
-- 
Mike... .  .   .    .  
Spanish food "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk/espania.htm"
remove clothing to email

"Mike.. . ."  wrote in message 
news:1nwfqy7sr351e.1thyi6vrfwhtz$.dlg@40tude.net...
> Following up to Adrian Tupper
>
>> Tea could be anything but perhaps only two portions I would guess.  So a
>> max of 5, typically around 3.
>
> I reckon I get 3 max too.
>
> Brunch, usually a sarnie, thats zero. Maybe an apple or banana with it so
> might be 1
>
> Dinner, will probably have one or two veg ingredients, never 5!
>
> I don't see why it matters? My artichoke and broad bean stew would be a
> score 2 day (or do the onions count?). I rarely eat the trad meat with
> little piles of veg type meal, where I suppose you could get it up to 5?
>
> Shepherds pie including peas, beans and toms (3) would be better than my
> artichoke stew? (2) I doubt it.
> -- 
IIRC, the Brit standard for a portion of fruit or veg is 80g.  I just 
weighed an average-sized Royal Gala and it was 180g. Therefore, a couple of 
apples almost fulfils your daily "need".
Health Canada advertises a portion as "if it fits in your hand."  Bloody 
stupid!
Graham

Following up to graham 

> an average-sized Royal Gala and it was 180g. Therefore, a couple of 
> apples almost fulfils your daily "need".

if you are allowed a lot of one thing, i often make 10, but I don't think
its "allowed"
-- 
Mike... .  .   .    .  
Spanish food "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk/espania.htm"
remove clothing to email

Mike.. .  .  wrote:
>> Plus I
>> drank fruit juice all day.
> isnt that a lot of sugar?

Yup.

graham  wrote:
> Health Canada advertises a portion as "if it fits in your hand."  Bloody 
> stupid!

I've always seen the guideline as "if it fits in your hand" here in the
uk.  Which is handy (oh-ho!) for things like dried fruit.

On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 12:35:32 +0000, "Mike.. .  ."
 wrote:

>Following up to Tim C. 
>
>> So I suppose it
>> must be germ warfare, as we know that the moon landings were faked and that
>> the WTC/pentagon attacks were US government conspiracies.  :-)
>
>I'm convinced there *were* WMD's
>
>proof:-
>"http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/kwansududes/Weaponsofmassdestruction.png"
>"http://www.adrants.com/images/big_boobs_airfare.jpg"
>"http://www.flickr.com/photos/_belial/2565291472/"
>
>OK, its an old one but its a good excuse.

What does this rubbish have to do with food and drink?

On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 13:39:28 +0100, "Tim C." 
wrote:

>On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 12:35:32 +0000, Mike.. .  . wrote in post :
><news:kmt48qnb9ea9.cjcj7v7m8bix$.dlg@40tude.net> :
>
>> Following up to Tim C. 
>> 
>>> So I suppose it
>>> must be germ warfare, as we know that the moon landings were faked and that
>>> the WTC/pentagon attacks were US government conspiracies.  :-)
>> 
>> I'm convinced there *were* WMD's
>> 
>> proof:-
>> "http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/kwansududes/Weaponsofmassdestruction.png"
>> "http://www.adrants.com/images/big_boobs_airfare.jpg"
>> "http://www.flickr.com/photos/_belial/2565291472/"
>> 
>> OK, its an old one but its a good excuse.
>
>Who needs an excuse for those?  :-)

Why are you feeding a known troll?

The message <lr1n3ubply84.1gmoohjxq20ym$.dlg@40tude.net>
from "Tim C."  contains these words:

> On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 16:16:55 GMT, Janet Baraclough wrote in post :
> <news:31303030393032394AE86E7795@zetnet.co.uk> :

> > The message <kjprlq2uzd7b$.18uhq7c2xjr7k$.dlg@40tude.net>
> > from "Tim C."  contains these words:
> > 
> >> I agree. It's very difficult to filter out what is significant and
> >> what is
> >> scaremongering, and although this particular vaccine is an unknown,
> >> so are
> >> all the normal annual flu vaccines that people take without batting an
> >> eyelid. 
> > 
> >   Lots of people  choose not to have the annual /seasonal flu jab (for a
> > whole variety of reasons). So 
> >  reluctance to be vaccinated against  swineflu is  not unusual at all.
> > 
> >     Janet
> >

> But many do. The point I was trying to make is why is there so much more
> controversy over this one as compared to the others? 

Maybe because the vast majority of the population  had no idea that 
even seasonal flu kills lots of people every year; and all mass
vaccination programs damage some recipients.
 For 30 years,  the UK has quietly  run and funded a compensation scheme
for people damaged by vaccines. Notta lotta people know that. Look
what's been quietly  tacked on to the list. 

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/DisabledPeople/FinancialSupport/OtherBenefitsAndSupport/DG_10026664

    No doubt when Joe Public  realises  there's a taxfree  £120,000 
prize  available in the H1N1 jab lottery,  take-up will improve . 
    
    Janet

The message <mDEHFrCMAV6KFwW+@theacct.demon.co.uk>
from June Hughes  contains these words:

> In message , Tim C. 
>  writes
> >On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 17:07:54 +0000, June Hughes wrote in post :
> ><news:tz9FZhIqpH6KFwVU@theacct.demon.co.uk> :
> >
> >>> If I know best, I know best for myself:
> >>
> >> That's why I said it.  I wasn't meaning to be rude or derogatory.
> >
> >That's not what it sounded like to me.  :-(

> I have already admitted that it came out the wrong way.  What do you 
> want?  I certainly don't intend to grovel for ever.

    Seconds out;  Round Two.

    Janet

On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 19:35:45 GMT, Janet Baraclough wrote in post :
<news:31303030393032394AE9EE9191@zetnet.co.uk> :

> The message <lr1n3ubply84.1gmoohjxq20ym$.dlg@40tude.net>
> from "Tim C."  contains these words:
> 
>> On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 16:16:55 GMT, Janet Baraclough wrote in post :
>> <news:31303030393032394AE86E7795@zetnet.co.uk> :
> 
>>> The message <kjprlq2uzd7b$.18uhq7c2xjr7k$.dlg@40tude.net>
>>> from "Tim C."  contains these words:
>>> 
>>>> I agree. It's very difficult to filter out what is significant and
>>>> what is
>>>> scaremongering, and although this particular vaccine is an unknown,
>>>> so are
>>>> all the normal annual flu vaccines that people take without batting an
>>>> eyelid. 
>>> 
>>>   Lots of people  choose not to have the annual /seasonal flu jab (for a
>>> whole variety of reasons). So 
>>>  reluctance to be vaccinated against  swineflu is  not unusual at all.
>>> 
>>>     Janet
>>>
> 
>> But many do. The point I was trying to make is why is there so much more
>> controversy over this one as compared to the others? 
> 
> Maybe because the vast majority of the population  had no idea that 
> even seasonal flu kills lots of people every year; and all mass
> vaccination programs damage some recipients.

That's what I was coming around to I think. All of a sudden one virus
catches the public imagination and everyone's running about with the
screaming heebiegeebies. (to oversimplify a little)

>  For 30 years,  the UK has quietly  run and funded a compensation scheme
> for people damaged by vaccines. Notta lotta people know that. Look
> what's been quietly  tacked on to the list. 

I didn't know that either. Good thing it exists, shame it need to.

> http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/DisabledPeople/FinancialSupport/OtherBenefitsAndSupport/DG_10026664
> 
>     No doubt when Joe Public  realises  there's a taxfree  £120,000 
> prize  available in the H1N1 jab lottery,  take-up will improve . 


 :-)


-- 
Tim C.

In article ,
   Janet Baraclough  wrote:
> The message <mDEHFrCMAV6KFwW+@theacct.demon.co.uk>
> from June Hughes  contains these words:

> > In message , Tim C. 
> >  writes
> > >On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 17:07:54 +0000, June Hughes wrote in post :
> > ><news:tz9FZhIqpH6KFwVU@theacct.demon.co.uk> :
> > >
> > >>> If I know best, I know best for myself:
> > >>
> > >> That's why I said it.  I wasn't meaning to be rude or derogatory.
> > >
> > >That's not what it sounded like to me.  :-(

> > I have already admitted that it came out the wrong way.  What do you 
> > want?  I certainly don't intend to grovel for ever.

>     Seconds out;  Round Two.

>     Janet

Well said, Janet.

Jane :)

-- 

Jane Gillett   :   j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk   :   Totnes, Devon.

"Tim C."  wrote in
news:lr1n3ubply84.1gmoohjxq20ym$.dlg@40tude.net: 

> On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 16:16:55 GMT, Janet Baraclough wrote in post :
> <news:31303030393032394AE86E7795@zetnet.co.uk> :
> 
>> The message <kjprlq2uzd7b$.18uhq7c2xjr7k$.dlg@40tude.net>
>> from "Tim C."  contains these words:
>> 
>>> I agree. It's very difficult to filter out what is significant and
>>> what is scaremongering, and although this particular vaccine is an
>>> unknown, so are all the normal annual flu vaccines that people take
>>> without batting an eyelid. 
>> 
>>   Lots of people  choose not to have the annual /seasonal flu jab
>>   (for a 
>> whole variety of reasons). So 
>>  reluctance to be vaccinated against  swineflu is  not unusual at
>>  all. 
>> 
>>     Janet
>>
> 
> But many do. The point I was trying to make is why is there so much
> more controversy over this one as compared to the others? 

Probably just weight of numbers, given its pandemic status.  More people 
are thinking about it.

I've been offered it again today.  That's three different "lists" I'm on!

-- 
Adrian

Remove packaging and take out insurance before emailing me

"Mike.. .  ."  wrote in 
news:a89su4mp2o78.fk0mk3adxlyw.dlg@40tude.net:

> Following up to vicky@dinky.vm.bytemark.co.uk 
> 
>> Plus I
>> drank fruit juice all day.
> 
> isnt that a lot of sugar?

Pretty well unavoidable with fruit.

-- 
Adrian

Remove packaging and take out insurance before emailing me

On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 09:17:26 +0000 (GMT), Jane Gillett
 wrote:

>Bit of a nuisance when the available bed is at the other end of the Trust
>area. But anyway, doesn't that just take up beds somewhere else and prevent
><their> local patients being treated? If you've only got x beds you can
>only treat what x beds will accomodate regardless of where those beds are
>situated. You are simply taking x beds out of the system at the busiest
>time.

Not if there are at least the same number of spare beds as can be treated at any
one time.
-- 

Martin

In article ,
   Martin <me@address.invalid> wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 09:17:26 +0000 (GMT), Jane Gillett
>  wrote:

> >Bit of a nuisance when the available bed is at the other end of the Trust
> >area. But anyway, doesn't that just take up beds somewhere else and prevent
> ><their> local patients being treated? If you've only got x beds you can
> >only treat what x beds will accomodate regardless of where those beds are
> >situated. You are simply taking x beds out of the system at the busiest
> >time.

> Not if there are at least the same number of spare beds as can be treated at any
> one time.

Don't understand. Hospitals don't seem to run with routinely spare beds
other than maybe a percentage kept spare for a medical emergency; when a
patient is sent out there tends to be a new occupant pretty quickly.

Defining "beds" as units with sufficient manpower/facilities etc to provide
basic bed care not merely bedsteads.........

Are you saying that the beds taken out of the system for cleaning in the
case in question are compensated by using up the beds which are routinely
kept empty for emergency situations?

AISI you have either 1. or 2:
  
1. You have x beds routinely in use in the Trust area. In addition you have
some "emergency beds" kept empty for emergencies; you maintain these
unused. You take y beds out of the system for whatever reason then you are
left with x-y beds for normal use.

Or.

2. You have x beds routinely in use. In addition you have some "emergency
beds". When you take y normal beds out of use for cleaning you compensate
by bringing y of the "emergency beds" into use. And you take a chance that
you will not get a genuine medical emergency in addition to the mnufactured
one.

Which did you have in mind?

Jane

-- 

Jane Gillett   :   j.gillett@higherstert.co.uk   :   Totnes, Devon.